Episode 124: The Quest For The Most Sustainable Bra, with Sam of Broad Lingerie

Welcome to Clotheshorse, the podcast that is just a Barbie podcast in a Barbie world.

I’m your host, Amanda and this is episode 169.

As always, I’m very excited about this week’s episode! My guest is award-winning journalist and sustainable fashion expert, Alden Wicker. She is here to talk about her new book To Dye For: How Toxic Fashion Is Making Us Sick – and How we can Fight Back. We will be talking about the chemicals on brand new clothing being sold right now, what the impact of these chemicals is (and yes, it’s major nightmare fuel), and what we can do to protect ourselves.

But first, I want to talk to you about…the summer of Barbie.

First things first: I was very excited about the movie and I saw it last night with Dustin and I LOVED it. I laughed so much and I had such a great time. This month has been kinda overwhelming for me because when I put in my two week’s notice at my job last month, I started booking consulting clients and other stuff..and two days before my two week’s were up…my employer asked me to stay until the end of July to finish up some projects. I couldn’t say no because I need the money…but woof, this month has been exhausting, usually working long days at my soon-to-be old job, then working nights and weekends with clients and on Clotheshorse stuff. So I have been really tired and kinda burned out. The movie felt like the ultimate treat and I can’t recommend it enough! Dustin and I also realized that this was the first time since we were kids that we had seen a “summer blockbuster film” because they are usually action movies or based on comic books. So this was a big departure that ultimately caters to a very different audience that doesn’t usually get big summer movies.

And really…from a mega-capitalist, make-as-much-money-as-possible perspective, this was a very, very smart decision for both the movie studio and Mattel, while also lifting up the entire retail industry.

The thing about Barbie is that…she’s baked into a lot of our memories. Some of us are indifferent, but we still saw a lot of commercials for Barbie as kids and we at least ran by the pink aisle at Toys R Us on our way to Legos. But for others (including me), Barbie was our favorite toy. I spent HOURS acting out stories with my Barbies, making clothes/furniture for them, and I definitely played with my share of Barbie coloring books and paper dolls when I was in the hospital (I had cancer as a kid). No matter who you are, Barbie unlocks a little memory portal in your brain and it makes you…well, kinda (or a lot) excited about the movie.

Earlier this year, we did two episodes of my other podcast, The Department about a new retail and social trend called “kidulting.” I’ll link to that episode in the show notes because it’s a fun and informative listen (according to me, at least). Essentially kidulting refers to a rise in sales of toys and toy-related products to adult customers. No, they aren’t buying these as gifts for children, they are buying them for themselves. In fact, right now these “kidults” are the reason the toy industry is growing. Because toy sales have been kinda lackluster for the past few years. Some examples of companies who are leaning into this new trend are

Lego: 20% of sales are now adults buying sets for themselves, thanks to the development of a line just for adults featuring things like video game systems, succulents, Van Gogh paintings, and dream cars.

American Girl: Btw American Girl is owned by Mattel (who also owns Barbie) and they have been cashing in on this adult customer by introducing dolls from the 80s and 90s that are specifically nostalgic to millennials. AND they have added alcohol and more “adult” food to their cafe menus.

Squishmallows: cute, but TBH not very special plushies (yes, plushies is what the kids call them now)…65% of total sales are adults buying them for themselves. I call them “21st century Beanie Babies.” If you want to get really upset about overconsumption and future landfill contents, go check the squishmallows hashtag on TikTok.

In fact, adults are big consumers of the plushies (aka stuffed animals) right now, with brands like Squishables selling higher priced plush to adult customers. Even Build A Bear Workshop has an adults-only section on their website. Before you get too titillated, it’s mostly bears that like to party…with alcohol.

But other brands are killing it in this era of kidulting, including Sanrio, who has been expanding into partnerships with beauty, clothing, and shoe brands, selling higher priced items to adults.

And I think that’s another important thing to call out: this kidulting trend doesn’t stop at toys. It’s the “adult happy meal” that McDonald’s put out last year. It’s home textiles, clothing, shoes, collabs with luxury brands. Beauty brands have been doing collabs with Hello Kitty, Barbie, Sailor Moon, Powerpuff Girls, and so much more.

There are a few things at the core of this kidulting trend. One is changing attitudes about aging and what adulthood means. And I am here for that. After all, who says you have to stop having fun or playing or being excited about things just because you are an adult?

Next is nostalgia, which we need more than ever right now. Life is hard and scary. Many of us are struggling with the political climate, the actual ever-warming climate of our planet, money worries, health issues, and so much more. It’s a hard fucking time to be alive. Nostalgia is comforting. It gives us a little bit of a mental break. Interestingly enough, nostalgia is also great for business.

According to a 2014 study by the Journal of Consumer Research, we are more likely to spend money when we feel nostalgic. There is something about nostalgia that makes people feel less like they need to hold on to their money. It’s very odd, but I think it’s related to the feeling of connection that comes from shared nostalgia. According to the study, “We found that when people have higher levels of social connectedness and feel that their wants and needs can be achieved through the help of others, their ability to prioritize and keep control over their money becomes less pressing.” The study also implied that leaning into nostalgia during a recession can help get reluctant customers to spend some money.

And guess what? Right now retailers are having a hard time getting people to spend money on “non-essential” items because essential items like food, housing, and healthcare are so expensive. Put a pin in that idea because we are going to talk about that in terms of the summer of Barbie in a few minutes.

Nostalgia also creates community and connection, which is harder to find right now. Think about it: all of us grew up with the same television shows, toys, and commercials in the background. Basically this created an entire generation that has all of these commercial properties (like Rainbow Brite, My Little Pony, McDonald’s Happy Meals, and BARBIE) as the backdrop of their memories. From the cartoons and their theme songs, to the toys, to the other “stuff,” they are baked into everything we remember. We are attached to these characters. And even if we were kinda “meh” about say, the Care Bears back then, if we see something related to it now (candy, a magnet, even just a pen), we are more likely to buy it because it makes us feel good. It feels more important than it should be. And because we share these memories with so many other people (because they are essentially mass produced) it’s easy to find others (thanks to social media) who share those fond memories. You can make friends and build entire communities around this nostalgia. There is a subreddit for just about any toy or cartoon from our childhood. Many of us–who have never met IRL–have similar stories about McDonald’s birthday parties or playing Mall Madness or watching the Smurfs. We read the same Goosebumps and Babysitters Club books. These commodities, these commercial properties…that were sold to us are also the threads that connect us. Is it kinda sad? Sure. But it also does create this sense of connection with more people? That’s me trying to be optimistic about it.

So back to Barbie…

Mattel (the company that makes Barbie) is very excited about the movie, too, because Barbie sales have been pretty weak over the past few years and Mattel had a really tough 2022. In fact, the doll industry as a whole is elated because analysts believe that the Barbie movie and all of the nostalgia around it will grow sales over the next few years. And of course, a visit to the Mattel website reveals an entire collection of dolls, doll clothing, adult clothing and other tchotkes directly from the movie. I personally think they missed two great opportunities here: one was to sell a version of the dreamhouse from the movie that is actually designed to be used with the dolls. And two, they should have reissued all of the most iconic dolls of the 80s and 90s because I know a lot of people who would want them…not that I think that we should all go out and buy Barbie stuff right now (more on that in a minute) but just like, c’mon Mattel, be smarter.

And retailers are very excited about the movie, too…but for very different reasons: in an economy where it’s gotten a lot harder to get people to buy stuff they don’t need, Barbie fever is a chance to sell a lot more stuff. Retail sales in clothing and other non-essentials have been sluggish for the past few months. It’s no wonder that there are more than 100 deals with various retailers/brands for Barbie-themed clothing and cosmetics collections. Off the top of my head, I can think of Gap, Old Navy, Nyx cosmetics, Asos, some weird exclusives with Revolve, Hot Topic. I’ve seen rollerblades, silk pillowcases, swimsuits, purses, glassware, a new Build A Bear option, neon signs, a pasta gift box!

The plan here? Convince consumers that they need a lot of new pink clothes to see the movie and show their love of Barbie… and guess what? Fashion media is ready for it. In an era where affiliate links pay the bills for online publications, Barbie listicles and thinkpieces about “how to dress like Barbie as an adult” are sure moneymakers. Btw affiliate links mean that the website (say, Buzzfeed) gets paid every time a reader clicks a link and buys the product linked. This is how blogs and websites stay in business at this point. The Barbie movie is a great opportunity to sell more stuff to a customer base who is largely ignored by big blockbuster films. And the Barbie movie brings together generations of people, so it’s an even bigger audience for listicles, and even more people to sell things to.

Furthermore, retailers can slap a “limited edition” or “exclusive” label on Barbie products so customers don’t think twice about buying something, lest it run out.

So we are seeing every retailer in one way or another selling Barbie stuff, even if it’s just curating a pink-themed page. Other retailers (like Shein) are bidding lots of money to come up at the top of Google search results for things like “Barbie clothes for women” And companies that make just about every other kind of product have also gotten into the Barbie merch game.

Here’s the thing: you don’t need to buy something new to participate in the summer of Barbie. For one, you don’t need a new outfit to go see a movie in a dark theatre. I think that most of us are feeling that urge to buy something new to wear because of the photos we are going to take for social media before or after the movie. And isn’t that the same as buying something new for every party, wedding, date, and birthday? Yes, it is. And we know that a lot of those sort of “single use” clothes end up in landfills really fast and barely worn.

Of course it’s fun to put together a special outfit and take photos, but we don’t need to buy something new to do that! Instead, you can make outfits out of things you already own. Or plan outfits with your friends and swap accessories. I got dressed up for the movie, wearing a pink hat that Dustin made for me a few years ago, my favorite secondhand Selkie dress (yellow with pink flowers), pink shoes, and a pink purse. I didn’t take any photos though because I felt like the Oppenheimer crowd waiting to see their movie in the other theatre were going to laugh at me.

I am beyond excited that my favorite color, pink, is having a big moment. But that doesn’t mean you have to go buy something pink. Make a strawberry cake or dye some stained clothing your favorite shade of pink. Do a special makeup look. Eat only pink food before or after the movie. Make special pink drinks for you and your friends.

When it comes to the nostalgia part of it all and the sense of community that comes with it, once again, you don’t need to buy anything. Scroll pinterest to look at Barbies from your childhood and share photos with your friends. Or you can do like I did on Saturday and watch old Barbie commercials on YouTube. There are so many of them and even Dustin go sucked in! Some of the Barbies of the past are hilarious and you have to wonder…why did they think kids would want that?

One of the best things about moments like this, where we all super excited about something fun happening around us, is the time we spend with other people, reminiscing, laughing, and generally being excited. That’s the most important part of it all. That togetherness, the community, and the shared memories. So let’s put our wallets away and lean into that.

From Barbie…to scary stories about clothing. Perhaps this episode is the Barbenheimer of slow fashion? Hmmm is that too cheesy to say? Anyway, I’m excited to jump into my conversation with Alden. In this conversation she will cite PFAS, which I wanted to explain to you really quickly.

From the US Food and Drug Administration:

“Per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) are chemicals that resist grease, oil, water, and heat. They were first used in the 1940’s and are now in hundreds of products including stain- and water-resistant fabrics and carpeting, cleaning products, paints, and fire-fighting foams. Certain PFAS are also authorized by the FDA for limited use in cookware, food packaging, and food processing equipment.

Chemically, individual PFAS can be very different. However, all have a carbon-fluorine bond, which is very strong and therefore, they do not degrade easily. (this is why they are often referred to as “forever chemicals.”

The widespread use of PFAS and their persistence in the environment means that PFAS from past and current uses have resulted in increasing levels of contamination of the air, water, and soil.

Accumulation of certain PFAS has also been shown through blood tests to occur in humans and animals. While the science surrounding potential health effects of bioaccumulation is developing, exposure to some types of PFAS have been associated with serious health effects.”

I’ll also just add here that PFAS have been found in dental floss, cosmetics (often from the packaging or because of cross contamination), “anti-fog” eyeglass sprays and wipes, and microwave popcorn bags.

It’s in this century that scientists are beginning to understand the impact of these chemicals and it’s pretty scary, especially since so much of it is still unknown.

PFAS are just one of the chemicals Alden will be discussing today that can be found on our clothing. So let’s jump right in…

Amanda:

All right, Alden, very excited to have you here today. Big fan of your work. Why don’t you introduce yourself to everybody?

Alden:

My name is Alden Wicker. I am an independent journalist and the author of To Die For, How Toxic Fashion is Making Us Sick and How We Can Fight Back.

Amanda:

So I am guessing that you weren’t like eight and on career day they were like, what do you wanna do when you grow up? And you said, oh, I’m totally gonna grow up and call out a lot of myths and greenwashing and chemicals and clothing. So can you, or maybe you did, which is incredible. Can you tell me how you found yourself working to educate others about the truth about the fashion industry?

Alden:

Well, it’s been somewhat of a circuitous route. I’ve always been interested in sustainability. My mom had, I grew up in a southern town and I think my mom was the only person in town that had subscriptions to Time and Newsweek. And I would actually read them and try to absorb whatever wasn’t over my head. And so, and I also, we grew up in the woods, I tramp around and so I actually always cared. about environmental issues. And I actually started, I have a clear memory of going to shopping at the mall and saying no to plastic bags in Claire’s. Do you remember Claire’s?

Amanda:

Uh, who could forget?

Alden:

And because I had read about peak oil and I knew plastic

was made from oil. And so I would try to stuff everything into one, like limited to shopping bag instead of getting a bunch of them.

Amanda:

But not justice. We’re talking limited to not later justice.

Alden:

Yeah, yeah. And so then I also I wanted to be a journalist in college because I actually really loved reading Vogue magazine. And as I got further educated, I graduated and I started blogging about environmental issues. This is back when like everybody had a blog. I had a very typical blog. It was like girl in the city, like sharing my life. And then I relaunched it in 2013 to be a little bit more serious and professional after I quit my job writing about finance, a personal finance for women. So I’ve always had a desire to help people, especially women with serious issues in their life that impact them. And so… I started, so I relaunched EcoCult in 2013, and then a couple weeks later, Rana Plaza, the garment factory in Bangladesh, collapsed and killed more than 1,100 people. And at the time, sustainable fashion was deeply uncool. I mean,

nobody wanted to read about it. Nobody wanted to hear about it. You know. the online women’s magazine, Refinery29, there was one editor there, Connie, who gave me a few assignments when she could. But then after that, it really accelerated and suddenly, Newsweek actually was like, why don’t you write about sustainable fashion? I’d pitched everything to Newsweek and they were like, well, aren’t you interested in sustainable fashion? Why don’t you write about that? And I was like, no way. You want me to write about sustainable fashion? So here we are. Uh, over the years I’ve written a lot about sustainable fashion and other sustainability topics, but I, I became disillusioned because it’s really hard to get people to prioritize, not just care about, but prioritize sustainability and fashion when, when they can’t see the impact of their choices ever.

We’re, we don’t see the less carbon being emitted carbon dioxide being emitted into the air. We don’t even know that paying five more dollars for something will make it to the farmer will make it to the garment worker. And so when I was offered, when I was asked, what do you want to write about by my lovely friend and book agent, Georgia King, I had heard I had been asked to comment on a radio show about this lawsuit from Delta flight attendants against Lanzen who made their uniforms because they were making them so sick and I didn’t know anything about it. I had written a lot about the hazardous chemistry in an endocrine disrupting chemicals in beauty products, in plastics. Um, but I had never heard about fashion doing this. And you know, the, the illnesses, the reactions that these attendants were having not only at Delta, but at Alaska before that American airlines, Southwest, some regional carriers, they were shocking. They, in some cases, these flight attendants were actually disabled just by being around uniforms that other attendants were wearing.

They just couldn’t function. They had racing hearts. They had rashes so bad they bled. Some of them went completely bald. Breathing problems so bad they were taken off the airplane to the ER. I mean, just horrendous. And so once I started researching and… pulling on this thread, I had to do a lot of digging to reach people who actually knew what was going on. And I just uncovered this whole underworld where it’s this open secret that fashion has chemicals, but they, like the party line has been, it’s not a big deal, you don’t need your clothes. And also like, yeah, some brands are bad, but like most brands are handling it and it’s okay. So like, don’t worry about it. And none of that is true.

Amanda:

right, right. I mean, surprise, right?

Alden:

Yeah.

Amanda:

Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting to me because, like, you know, I have worked in the fashion industry my entire adult life as a buyer in fast fashion and, like, doing product development, things like that. And, you know, the conversation about chemicals never comes up. And I can assure you that all of the designers and production people I’ve worked with over the years didn’t really know very much about it at all. either, the only time it might come up is if we were talking about something not passing the flammability test. And even still, it would be like, oh, well, they’re going to go back and redevelop the fabric, which probably meant spray it with more flame retardant, right?

But that’s not the verbiage we used. And certainly, no one was saying, oh, these decisions that we make might have a negative impact on health or planet, right?

Alden:

Yeah. Well, you know, the thing is, is if you dig a little bit deeper, you start hearing stories, right?

You hear stories about, uh, production people. I actually talked to, I interviewed a woman for my book who got very sick. Uh, first she developed, so she was in charge of production at a variety of brands and, uh, she first felt like I had really serious skin issues starting on her hands, right? So she’s opening these boxes straight from China and India and South America and would just be hit in the face with this very terrible smell and then she started getting rashes on her hands because she’s checking the seams, making sure that everything’s okay and that spiraled due to fashion she believes and I believe into such serious Crohn’s at age 35 that she ended up in the hospital with her organs shutting down.

Amanda:

Oh my god.

Alden:

Yes. And I interviewed, um, at least one autoimmune, uh, researcher and expert who said, yeah, if you don’t get your allergies under control, that will spiral into chronic inflammation and autoimmune disease because you’re constantly assaulting your body

and your body ends up being sort of almost traumatized, right? It’s sort of like PTSD where, you know, if, if you are traumatized, things that are quote unquote normal to other people will set you off. And that’s what’s happening in your body. Your what they’re called, they’re called mast cells, which are sort of the protectors of the body. They attack toxins, they attack allergens. They start attacking and leading to inflammation if they just encounter like a tiny bit of a chemical that has traumatized them before by being like poured onto them. So, um, this is all very lay person. I’m not, like if I sound kind of dumb to any scientists who are listening, it’s because I’m translating this. into lay person speak, but in essence, like that’s kind of a metaphor for what’s happening. And I’ve heard from so many people saying like, I had to quit my job or like I work in, you know, I work in a fast fashion store and the clothes smell so bad or I have breathing problems whenever I walk into a clothing store and I have to leave. So once you start digging, you start hearing these stories a lot, but you might not have noticed them before because Because we tend to gaslight people or tell people that have these problems, like, oh, it’s just you. Or like, wow, you must be so sensitive. Or like, are you sure? Or maybe it’s just in your head or like all of these different things. And so we sort of dismiss those concerns. But once you open that up and say like, hey, I believe you, there’s an actual mechanism behind this, the stories just start coming out of the woodwork.

Amanda:

Yeah, no, I believe it. It’s funny, as you were talking, I was thinking about, I’ve been surrounded by clothes my entire adult life, right? And one of my, like what basically began my career was working retail, which I did for three years. And we had just like tables and tables full of t-shirts that I would fold. I would fold thousands of t-shirts every day. And I’d. at the same time was developing this blistering eczema in my hands that was super painful. And I was just constantly covered with band-aids. And I can assure you, like, neither, well, first off, when you work retail, how often can you even afford to go to the doctor, right? But when I did

finally see a doctor about it, like, the fact that I was folding hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of garments every week, and hanging them and unpacking them as they came in from shipment and all those things. never came up in conversation. It was like, oh, what kind of soap are you using? Are you using a lotion? And it was like, no, no. And really, the moment I stopped folding all those clothes every day, my hands healed, right?

Alden:

Crazy.

Amanda:

And I’m just one of many, many people who are surrounded by clothes every day. It’s crazy,

Alden:

it’s just like, it’s just like wild how it’s like, oh, we never thought about it. And then you’re like, have you thought about it? And it’s like the connections start getting made. And it’s like, oh my god, it’s so obvious.

Amanda:

No, seriously, as you were talking, I was thinking about all the people I have worked with over the years in my career and how many people were having autoimmune issues, chronic stomach and skin issues, the sheer volume of exotic eczema everybody was getting, people who were suddenly developing asthma. Like it was just, it’s not surprising to me now that we’re talking about it, especially, you know, your PR person told me that there are more than 3,000 different chemicals used in fashion today, with up to 50 of them present on a single garment. That is wild to me. That’s so many chemicals.

Alden:

Yeah, I mean, that’s not even the full story because that came out from Nike many years ago and there’s a lot of evidence that there’s a lot more chemicals than just 3000 used on fashion. So there’s more than 30,000 chemicals used in commerce today and just the number of PFAS, estimated number of this is this class of chemicals that are used for water and stain and other reasons it’s super toxic. It’s been in the news. There’s been settlements from Thinx Period Panties, as well as 3M to help clean up it in our drinking water. It’s linked to thyroid disease, cancer, all sorts of stuff. So that, the estimate for the number of PFAS chemicals has jumped from like 3,000 to 4,000 to 6,000 to 12,000 in the past few years. So. 12,000 types of PFAS, just PFAS. So clearly there’s worth of 3000 chemicals present on our clothing. And a lot of them, as I discovered in my research are not labeled, categorized, much less tested, right? So you go into PubChem, so these researchers from Duke told me that just disperse dyes, which are used to dye polyester, they were trying to research them and like, they were, so there’s this way, thing called mass spectrometry, which traditionally with testing, you have to know what you’re looking for and you say, okay, we’re going to look for these 50 chemicals and we’re just going to, we have to know what they look like. We have to know their chemical signature and we’re going to look for each of them in a test. So it’s very expensive. This new type of test, mass spectrometry, you… you see everything in there and then you can start matching these chemical structures to what’s in the literature. And they were like, we don’t see this in the literature. Like these chemicals are being created and they’re just not in there. And they were looking around and they were like, look, there’s like 5,000 chemical signatures that look like disperse dyes, but are not labeled and they’re definitely not tested. So again, like wild, wild world out there of You know, them saying like, well, there’s not really a lot of evidence showing that they’re safe. Well, there’s not evidence showing that they’re not safe. It’s just a lack of evidence, a lack of research.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah. Wow, I’m just, I think that we already touched on flame retardants, which might be one that doesn’t surprise people to hear on clothing, but what probably surprises them, actually. But what are other types of chemicals that are in our clothing? So dyes, obviously, probably

to soften fabrics or change the texture. But what else?

Alden:

So you also have the plasticizers that are used in synthetic materials to make them soft and pliable. So that’s phthalates, BPA, other things, something like dynch. So those are part of the plastics and those can migrate out of the plastics. You also have finishes, performance finishes. You have anti-odor finishes. You have… PFAS, which provides that stain repellency and the water repellency, quick dry properties. You have, uh, anti-wrinkle and easy care finishes, which usually involves either formaldehyde or can break down an off gas formaldehyde. So, and then there’s like the processing chemicals, and then there’s contaminants. So, uh, you know, you don’t know where fashion has been. So a lot of times when it’s being shipped from super humid, wet places with bugs and pests that America does not want. There are pesticides applied to warehouses, fungicides applied to the clothing, and also applied to the shipping containers and the ships that transport these things. So those can be on there. And then the contaminants just from, you know, the processing like lubricants and everything that’s put on machinery. You know, just like Fashion goes through so many steps like chemicals are applied, then chemicals are stripped off, then more chemicals are applied, then finishes are put on and dyes, softeners, you know, blah, blah. The shipping happens, it’s stored in a dank warehouse somewhere. I mean, there’s so much that happens to one piece of fashion, then you have all the components and the threads and all of those different things. So it’s, there’s, I mean, that fact that you said. about up to 50 chemicals being found in one garment. Again, those are the chemicals that they were looking for.

That’s not a comprehensive review of what’s in what’s in a garment.

Amanda:

I mean, and I think you touch on something that is really important that cannot be forgotten, which is that the process of creating our clothing is not as simple as one might imagine. I think people think like, oh, there’s some fabric, it gets cut, someone sews it, and then somehow it’s like in the store. But you touched on all the other points along the way where it’s coming in contact with other environments, with other treatments. I certainly have opened a box of samples from a vendor and been like, whoa, is this? Was this sprayed with gasoline? Or

what? I have coughed. I have dry heaved. I’ve had burning eyes after opening a box. And this is the same stuff that’s going to be sold in stores and go home to your house and be on your body or the body of someone you love. So I already know the answer here. But I’m just going to ask it, are these regulated by the US government?

Alden:

yeah, there are it when it comes to the federal government, there are three chemicals that are regulated only in children’s products. Some phthalates, lead and cadmium. And I actually so I visited the Marine and Airport at Newark in New Jersey. It’s one of the biggest combined ports in the United States. And They only check basically, they tend to only check even children’s products that are fakes. So if it’s shipped in by a legitimate company and it’s not a dupe, they will assume it’s okay and let it through. And, also if you think about like you opening. those boxes and coughing and dry heaving, more and more Americans are getting that, you know, before I would sort of off gas as it sits in the store and might not be as strong or if it was so bad, maybe some, like maybe a brand would pull it or something. More and more Americans are getting that experience because they’re able to order products straight from the factory to their door and nobody is opening that bag and looking. They could have anything in there. And there are chemicals that are banned for all use and sale as a chemical in the United States, something like Chlordane, which is a really strong pesticide, that was found on airline uniforms. And there’s nothing illegal about that. There’s literally nothing stopping a brand from, or a manufacturer from putting on a very banned. chemical on clothing and then selling it to consumers, adult consumers.

Amanda:

Wow, I mean, and for sure, like just based on my experience, pesticides and fungicides on clothing and other accessories or even home goods that you buy, not unusual, especially if they ship to via boat, because otherwise they get to the dock, you know, like two months later and they open it and everything might be molded. Now, that’s not me like making an excuse for it at all. I don’t think it’s cool, but I mean, it really speaks to. the nature of our clothes being made so far away in such untransparent supply chains that we don’t know what we’re getting, but I see why it happens. And it’s really scary. It’s really scary. So why is this such a big secret? Because I think for a lot of people who are listening to this, this is probably really shocking.

Alden:

It is shocking and there’s a few reasons I think it’s a secret. One is that I had to be very stubborn and persistent to find this out myself because there is a lot of gaslighting that goes on. A lot of people who are experts are paid by the industry in some way. So they are incentivized consciously or not to… downplay, first of all, they’re not allowed to share all the things they’ve seen. Right? So some of these labels are, they’re getting paid by brands to certify their stuff as non-toxic. If something fails, they don’t share that. They just tell the brand, Hey, it failed. You’re not getting the certification and the brand can choose whether or not to clean it up so they can get the certification, but they don’t have to clean it up. You know what I mean?

It’s a little bit different in California. The reason why we know so much at this point is that California has prop 65. That’s the reason why you see these labels that say like in the state of California, uh, this is, you know, this has a reproductive toxic and carcinogenic substances or something along those lines is because California doesn’t say you can’t have those chemicals. It just says if you have them, you have to label it. And so that has led some, uh, some advocacy organizations such as the center for environmental health. to test products because they’re incentivized to test things because then they can sue or they can work with a public advocacy law firm to put notice in and then sue these, these brands for not following the law on labeling because it’s really expensive to get things tested. I decided I wanted to go through this process. I got five things tested, not even for everything I wanted to get them tested for. and it cost me almost $10,000.

Amanda:

Oh my God, wow.

Alden:

Yeah, yeah, I used half of my advance that year on getting things tested. So, um, that’s another reason it’s just a very, very complicated subject. And it was very ambitious and maybe perhaps stupid for me to take on this type of project because so many people still are saying, what’s your credentials? You don’t know anything. Like you, you know, and I’m like, well, I talked to all these researchers who say this like, oh, well, you’re just fear-mongering. This isn’t a big deal because the well has been poisoned by a lot of misinformation that’s been going around, especially in the wellness community. And I get that when people see this and they don’t know who I am and they don’t know my work, they say they, you know, they don’t want to buy into something that could potentially be misinformation. But I invite anybody, even if they don’t want to give me money, go check it out from the library and look through the citations. It’s.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think you hit on a really good point there, that because there has been so much misinformation, especially over the past few years, coming from the wellness community, or people who were maybe weaponizing the wellness community to meet their other ideological beliefs, I think that there is this concern about fear-mongering. But also, you know what? I mean, I don’t know what you think, but I feel like we’ve just been really hearing about PFAS in a major impactful way for the past two or three years. And we still don’t know the full impact of them, but what we do know is that they’re terrible. So these conversations have to start somewhere. And just because something is bad news doesn’t mean that the person who delivered it doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

But I totally understand. I get people pushing back on me with that kind of stuff all the time, too. And I’m like, how do I know this? Because I’ve worked in this industry for 20 years. Like, that’s

how I know things, right? It’s interesting, you talked about California, and I will tell you, I have worked for multiple employers who have been taken to court over things that were tested in California for the exact reasons you were saying, and discovered to contain materials or chemicals that were not, that needed to be labeled and were not. And what retailers have begun doing to sort of protect themselves from that, because ultimately they have so little insight. or control over their supply chain, which is why we know all this, or why a lot of this really fucked up shit happens, right?

Because they, you know, like when you’re trying to get the lowest price you can on, and as fast as possible, this is what happens. You lose total insight into what’s happening. These retailers, rather than saying like, okay, I’m going to try to have more oversight, more transparency into my supply chain, what instead they’re doing is requiring manufacturers to have insurance that covers this kind of litigation.

Alden:

Ugh, these poor manufacturers, they always are on the losing end of this.

Amanda:

They really are.

Alden:

it’s ridiculous because you know, so I, I did travel to India and visited some dye houses and I visited like a really good one that has all the certifications. They work with some of the big brands who care deeply about this. And they said half the cost that so the, the cost of running a proper water treatment system as required by law actually in Tirupur at this point, is like doubles the price of the dyed fabric. It’s like, it’s insanely expensive and they would only do it if it was required by law. I mean, they can’t afford that because so many brands will move from factory to factory. If Eva, if a dye house goes to them and says, um, we know you care deeply about safe chemistry, the dyes that you’re the certified dyes that you’re requiring us to get this certifications that you’re requiring us to pay for and the audits and you know, the, the water treatment system and the safety protocols that honestly slow down the speed of our workers will increase the price of each yard by or each, each final piece of clothing by three cents. The brand will say, eh, you know what? The guy down the street says he doesn’t need to charge that much more, so we’re going to go to them. What do you think the guy down the street’s doing?

Amanda:

Yeah, totally, right? Like, that’s the thing. Like, you know, it’s a race to the bottom in terms of pricing. And all of these manufacturers are there put into this corner where it’s like, do you want to not be able to pay your workers? Or do you want this job? You know, like, someone’s going to have to suffer to meet the pricing we want, as if that brand couldn’t eat the 3 cents per unit. But that’s really what it comes down to. I mean, it’s the same thing with saying, OK, well, now, we’re going to close our eyes, put on our earmuffs, and pretend we don’t know what’s happening, or just absolve ourselves from knowing what’s happening. And you’re going to bear the repercussions of any litigation by having insurance for it, which is expensive. I have definitely dealt with vendors who are like, sorry, you can’t order enough to make this worth my time, I mean, worth my money.

Alden:

Yeah.

Amanda:

It’s so expensive. And yet that’s. When brands are asking for that, that money also then comes out of the pockets of the people making the stuff. It trickles down, right?

Alden:

Yeah, absolutely. And there’s a variety of ways that brands avoid culpability in this case. So the story of, for example, Alaska Airlines and Twin Hill, which is a uniform manufacturer. So first what they did is they said, oh, it got contaminated on the boat. Then they said, oh, it’s the fault of the particular place we ordered from. We are no longer working with them. And then they said, look, we’ve had things tested. There’s nothing that we accidentally got on there that would cause this. I mean, there is Teflon, which we put on there on purpose. Yeah, because that Teflon is PFAS. It is the stain proofing stuff. And they said, but that, we put that there on purpose. So like, that couldn’t be it. And this is in 2011. Believe me, the news was out that PFAS is toxic. It’s just, it was just this time where, and hopefully this book can pull us, yank us forward out of this, where people said, it doesn’t matter what’s on your clothing. You’re not eating your clothing. That is so not true. Okay. Putting aside the fact that infants literally stuff clothing in their mouths.

We now know that microfibers of synthetic and natural break off of clothing when we wash them and when we wear them and they end up in our house dust.

And so when they’re in our house dust and floating around, aside from just the VOCs of volatile organic compounds that are floating off our clothes, that’s what you’re smelling when you smell clothing, we’re ingesting those microfibers. We are… smelling in those things and also when we sweat, sweat pulls whatever’s in the fabric out onto your skin and especially with like endocrine disruptors and certain chemicals those can soak into the skin. Now there needs to be more research about dermal transfer that is a big hole that is the next step forward

and that lack that hole in the research is being weaponized against researchers and against advocates who are saying this is a problem by saying well, we don’t know how much so like let’s wait until the next five years of incredibly expensive research comes through and then and then maybe we can talk about it but you know, like I you know, like We can get hormone patches as birth control.

Amanda:

Yeah, I hear this all the time actually, that like, well, we don’t know about anything like, where people will say literally like, oh, absorbing stuff through your skin is a myth. And I’m like, there are multiple, many medications that are patches. So are you saying that those are a scam? Or do they work? Because if they work, then some stuff goes through your skin.

Alden:

Yeah, exactly. I mean, there’s been some work by some sort of anti wellness influencers who are like, this is a myth, this is a myth. And I think people have swung too hard in the other direction where they’re saying like, not all chemicals can be absorbed through the skin. There’s no evidence that like we absorb whatever made up number of what is put on our skin. It doesn’t mean that nothing can go through our skin. It just means there is a hole in the research. in the United States, we tend to take a, or we always take a innocent until proven guilty. Now it takes millions and millions and millions of dollars and 10 to 20 years to prove a chemical guilty. And that, especially for something like PFAS or heavy metals, which build up in the body, PFAS never goes away. The more PFAS we make, the more we have, right?

It’s called a plugged bathtub. It does not go away. And so we don’t have time. to prove definitively that this is causing people to get sick. It might never be exactly provable because we wear so many different pieces of clothing every day that most of the evidence we have comes from workers, factory workers who are in factories that make these textiles and are exposed to a measurable amount of different things like formaldehyde over the course of their employment. that Alaska Airlines attendance, a lot of their symptoms like breathing problems, rashes, multiple chemical sensitivity doubled after the introduction of the uniform. So we have pretty strong evidence, but for you and me, because we’re exposed to such a variety of things, if we had a few pieces of toxic clothing, it might take us a really long time to figure out what’s causing our problems. I’ve talked to women who finally found out after they went in for a patch test that they were… allergic to certain dispersed dyes, blue and black usually comes up because that’s what people are tested for the most. And they’ve told me, I will buy clothing and then I will wear it and then I’ll wait three days to see if a reaction shows up in those three days. So it can take a really long time to figure it out. It’s almost like you have to go on a clothing and exposure elimination diet, right? Like just wear white, undyed, unfinished, super non-toxic clothing. put use no, you know, creams or like any soap or anything for a couple of weeks and then start adding things back in to see what happens.

Amanda:

I mean, it certainly would slow down shopping for a lot of people. So maybe this isn’t the worst idea. But it is the interesting, like, I mean, obviously, like, you know, flame retardants and dyes have been in use for a really long time at this point. Like, since the mass production of clothing began in the middle of the last century, you know, polyesters came later, but they weren’t as prevalent until this century. So I’m wondering, now that we live in this, like, golden era, and I mean that. a little snidely, this golden era of synthetic fabrics where so much of our clothing is synthetic or a blend, do you think that this has become a bigger issue in the past 10 or 20 years with the rise of fast fashion?

Alden:

Absolutely. I do think it, I mean, clothing has always been toxic. Let’s be clear about that. Right.

There’s been mercury and hats and then, uh, there was, then there was the invention of Greek arsenic green and then the invention of fossil fuel dyes and then the invention of plastic. So it’s always been around. We keep inventing new fun ways to poison ourselves with our fashion.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah.

Alden:

And none of this was ever banned by the way. It would just sort of like kind of fall out of favor, but it wasn’t banned. And so when we started outsourcing all of our, like 97% of our fashion production, to countries that have not very strong environmental and labor protections, there’s nothing stopping those manufacturers who, like we just discussed, cannot invest in safe technology or safe chemistry because they’re not paid enough. There’s nothing stopping them using those things that the fashion industry says claims they have phased out. So things like there are certain as it dies that have been banned in Europe and that the fashion industry says they have phased out and certain brands restrict, but you test clothing and they, they show up again.

So a lot of these things like mercury was never banned for use in manufacturing hats, except in Connecticut. It was used in the UK until the 1960s. I mean, people think this is like a Victorian era thing, but like the only reason why we don’t use it anymore is because we don’t make or wear men’s hats out of rabbit fur anymore. That’s the only reason.

Amanda:

So you’re saying that there’s never been like really a sweeping recall or ban on anything relating to fashion.

Alden:

Just in Europe. So Europe in the last decade has banned over 30 chemicals specifically for the use of textiles. You can go online to something called RapX and you can see the different products that the EU has tested, destroyed, sent back, blocked. There’s not a ton of stuff. They can’t check every shipment, but they are doing something. The US doesn’t really do that, say for California. There’s some specific PFAS regulation coming in New York and California and Washington and Maine. But yeah, there’s just a lot of like, trust us. We got your back going on.

Amanda:

It’s interesting, like I, or maybe it’s not interesting, it’s depressing. I remember one of my first buying jobs, one of the categories I worked on was shoes. And we had an issue with these like slip-on, sort of like slippery things that were like, I don’t know, they were like $12 a pair and we were selling just like thousands upon thousands of them every week. And someone reached out to customer service and was like, these shoes gave me a chemical burn. And… it was like suddenly, it was like someone opened a door just a little bit and the door just slammed open and we were receiving a lot of messages of that nature. Like I got a weird rash on my foot, I went to the doctor and they said it was a chemical burn and like obviously as the buyer, like this was out of my hands like legal took it on and we didn’t buy those shoes anymore. But I always thought it was really interesting that we were selling inadvertently or otherwise a pair of shoes that probably looked innocent enough but were somehow giving people. What, based on the photos I saw, appeared to be chemical burns.

Alden:

And it’s crazy because there have been multiple lawsuits from consumers against Carter’s, Children’s Wear brand for tags, and Victoria’s Secret in 2008 for bras that gave consumers chemical burns. And then, you know, there have been instances where the CPSC, the Consumer Product hundreds or thousands of reports of chemical burns and the CPSC doesn’t really do much about it. They sort of like, I think they try to talk to the brand and say like, it’d be great if you voluntarily recalled this, but the brands don’t really have to do it. And to avoid culpability, I didn’t get, I wanted to talk about this earlier and I forgot. I went off on a tangent, but, um, to avoid culpability, the brand says, okay, prove which chemical it was.

Amanda:

Oh my God, of course.

Alden:

And I told you that I got something tested for like 130, I got some stuff tested for 130 chemicals and a few of them failed and it cost me $10,000. So which consumer, like even if with the help of a law firm, so a lot of times they’re like, it’s formaldehyde because formaldehyde has been in the news. It could be so many things. And a lot of times they’re like, what’s the one chemical? Because They’ll say like, if you’re like, it’s formaldehyde, they’re like, ah, but formaldehyde has, doesn’t have proven links to like these symptoms that they’re having. Well, it could be that a lot of different chemicals are doing a lot of different things, um, acting synergistically, supporting each other, like doing all these crazy things. And so you, the epidemiology is really hard to sort out definitively because it’s like, which chemicals doing what? Like, what do these mixes do when they come together? What is it? What is it off gassing? all of these different things. So the brands have gotten out of all of these lawsuits by saying, prove which chemical it is. And when consumers can’t or the law firms can’t, they, they get out of it. And they, there’s a lot of victim blaming the Carter CEO at the time. They had more than 3000 reports from parents who were just beside themselves. Right. And they were like, ah, well, you know, it’s, I have the exact quote in the book, but they, the CEO basically said, well, you know, there’s a few sensitive babies out there. It’s the babies, not our products.

And it’s not a rarity. I mean, there’s a lot of evidence that somewhere around one fifth of people have chemical sensitivities, reactions, autoimmune diseases, like all of these different things that are linked. So it’s not a rare thing. I mean, as soon as I started talking about this thing, it’s like all the time people were like, oh yeah, I have an autoimmune disease. Oh yeah. I can’t do sense. Oh, my sister is like extremely sensitive. My mom, my like, it’s all around us. And yet we still act like it’s this rare thing that like two sensitive people are foisting upon us. I almost think it should become another type of disability that needs to be accommodated for.

Amanda:

Mm, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it’s interesting. I was reading anecdotally on, because I spent a lot of time doom squirreling Reddit, and I went down a rabbit hole of a bunch of reading about more and more people are being diagnosed with autoimmune diseases, more and more people are developing allergies, skin conditions related to autoimmune issues, et cetera, et cetera. And there’s like, nobody knows why, right? It seems pretty straightforward to me that it’s the chemicals around us, the chemicals in our clothes, and also all the highly processed food we’re being fed.

And it’s scary, it’s scary. So you can feel sort of like doomed, right? Like how can I, I’m just doomed to suffer, right? So that’s like a really, that would be a very dark note for us to like be like, okay, well, that’s all. Thanks everyone, bye.

Alden:

Good night and good luck!

Amanda:

Yeah, God bless. I thought we could talk about what we can do as individuals to protect ourselves and other people, because this is definitely like, I guarantee people who are listening to this might be freaked out a little bit, but maybe they’re not going to start getting freaked out until they get into bed tonight. So let’s just like stop that now.

Alden:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, so there are there are definitely things that you that one can do to protect themselves in their family There’s actually a lot of control that one can exert now. I’m gonna say this new caveat this by saying That I don’t think this should be the situation. I think the government should be protecting us more I think brands should

Amanda:

Yeah.

Alden:

be held accountable for what they put in there and I don’t think you know People have so many different priorities that you know, it’s hard to even just feed your family healthy food for a lot of people. So like adding another thing to people’s plate is not my ideal outcome. However, if this is concerning to you and you wanna protect your family and you have some sort of illness or something that I described in the book. So I’ve linked this to autoimmune disease, infertility, skin conditions, multiple chemical sensitivity, and cancer, you know, all these different things. So the first thing I would do is don’t buy ultra fast fashion. So anything that drops ships from Asia that you’ve never heard of before and is on Amazon and I’m confident saying Amazon because there’s been like weird recalls of Amazon products, including children’s shoes because of toxicity. And so there’s all these gibberish brands that you see on social media, advertising on social media.

Amanda:

they’re gibberish. That is exactly what they are.

Alden:

Yeah. So avoid those for sure. They’re super, super dangerous. And also they’re just bad value. They never look like their picture. So I wouldn’t even recommend it.

Amanda:

And they copy and steal ideas, right? Like, I mean, I will tell you, like, I, because I just like observing people so much, I belong to a lot of different Facebook groups that otherwise would be of no interest to me if I weren’t just like a creep who likes to see what people talk about. And there are a lot of these Facebook groups for like dupes of like brands, and like, specifically they’re all like they’re getting them all from drop ship brands, like these gibberish.

Alden:

Wait, by dupes do you mean total scams?

Amanda:

No, no, like total duplicated.

Alden:

Hahaha

Amanda:

Yeah, sorry, you’re not up in the dupe scene like me, but you’re right, I can see. I mean, when you think about it that way, like who’s getting duped here, right?

Alden:

Yeah, totally.

Amanda:

But I see like people, it bums me out so hard because someone will be like, oh, I really love sulky, but I can’t afford it. So I bought these five dresses from insert assortment of vowels and consonants here, right? And they all arrived. And then they show the photos. And some of them look better than others. But when I see them, and you want to get sags, I’m like, wow, those are copies of someone else’s hard work. But I am just like, what is that really? What’s the fabric? Who made it? How was it made? I have so many questions. And that stuff’s not necessarily cheap anymore either.

Alden:

Right, yeah, I mean, it’s just, I see it as a waste of your money because like, they don’t take returns, you know, they’re just like, they don’t even like respond to your email. So so avoid those. I would go for natural fabrics whenever possible. It doesn’t mean they’re perfect. It’s not a hard and fast rule, but synthetic fabrics are more likely to contain some of these undercoundstructors and definitely the disperse dyes and things like that. So go for those. patronize or look for labels like OEKO-TEX, BlueSign, and to a lesser extent, GOTS. Those indicate that there’s certifications, a stronger relationship, things like that. I also have lists on Ecocult for a lot of different product categories of non-toxic, safe, sustainable brands. I’m going to come out soon with a mass market brand listing because a lot of people are asking. I love, yeah, love supporting tiny brands, but this is a little bit out of my price point. So yeah,

I totally get it. So there’s a lot of big brands who care deeply about their reputation, even what you would consider fast fashion brands that are very concerned about this. So that’s another thing to look for and avoid performance qualities, performance and promises. If it promises to be anti odor, stain repellent, water repellent, quick dry, anti wrinkle. Easy care, all of these different things, it’s usually achieved with a, a finish, a chemical finish unless otherwise clearly stated. So avoid those things. And, uh, if it smells bad, send it back.

Amanda:

That’s a good call because I mean, I don’t, I rarely buy new clothes at this point in my life, but I have definitely, I had a very dark period in the late 2010s where I was ordering a lot from Zara and Forever 21 and I would frequently get clothes that smelled like, I would just say, oh, these smell like cancer, you know?

Alden:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it was so, it was so interesting because when I visited this one dye house, so I visited two dye houses, one was not great, one was great, but in the great dye house, they were printing children’s pajamas with these characters on them. And when I got up close, it smelled like a budget nail salon. It smelled like, you know, when you walk into a nail salon and you’re like, smells like cancer.

Amanda:

Yep, yep, yeah, exactly. I mean, that is not unusual to be working in the buying office and get a bunch of samples. And everybody has to take them out into the hallway to air out. Like, this is real, especially when we start talking about fake leather, AKA vegan leather, and other definitely 100% plastic, sometimes very obvious plastic items. Like that. That is where it gets super scary. But I have also smelled, like I said, that weird gasoline pesticide fungicide smell on natural fibers too. So it’s important to, I agree, just return it if it smells.

Alden:

Yeah, absolutely. That was the one thing that Pete, like every, all the experts agreed upon. It was sort of like, they’d be like, it’s not a big deal. I mean, yeah, sure. If it smells bad, return it. So that’s like the one thing that even the people who are defending the industry are like, I mean, yeah, if it smells bad, return it.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah, and who knows what they’ll do with it. I mean, in the era of e-commerce, I don’t know if they would be like, oh, we’re gonna send this, we’re gonna hold the vendor accountable, maybe if enough people sent it back. But I also know that they’re not gonna like hang it up and air it out because that’s not how warehouses work.

Alden:

No,I don’t know, yeah. I always feel like the way we force change if we’re gonna buy stuff is by like being very selective about what we buy and where we buy it. But this chemical one is really hard.

Amanda:

It’s so big.

Alden:

Yeah. Yeah, I call it a hyperobject. So hyperobjects are things that are like so huge that you can’t see it all at once and you can’t wrap your mind around it.

Amanda:

Yeah!

Alden:

And the travel of chemicals through our supply chain and through our world is definitely a hyperobject.

Amanda:

Definitely. It’s like trying to imagine the size of the universe. Your brain just hits a wall pretty fast.

Alden:

Yeah, exactly.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah. And so the other thing, I mean, I don’t know about this. There are a lot of people who are very, I’m not this. I’m such a instant gratification person, or at least I was when I was buying a lot of fast fashion. There are a lot of people who are like, oh, well, if I buy something, I wash it before I wear it. Do you think that makes an impact?

Alden:

It does. Yeah, it does because it can wash off a lot of the contaminants, the things that are, you know, the dye is crocking or coming off, uh, washing it a few times can help. It’s not going to get rid of everything if there’s a PFAS coating that PFAS coating is going to stay on there. It’s meant to stay on there. Um, and make sure you wash it in a non-toxic unfragranced fragrance free laundry detergent because those detergents that have fragrances. Those fragrances are designed to stick to your clothing for a long time. It’s really hard to get them off. So, um, if you do go to the dermatologist with skin reactions, they’ll ask you about soaps and stuff. They’ll also ask you what detergent are you using? And so that’s a very, uh, a big known skin sensitizer.

Amanda:

I believe that I have a very visceral response to the smell of Gain, which I know many people like, but to me it is like nausea inducing immediately. And that’s one of those ones, there’s nothing worse than buying something on Poshmark or Depop, opening the envelope and you’re like, oh shit, it’s like a Gain bouquet. And you end up having to wash it many times to get rid of that smell because it is on there.

Alden:

Yeah, it’s on there for sure.

That’s one of the reasons why I actually like to go thrifting in person, just because with all the chipping back and trying things on and oh, I missed the return thing, like thrift shopping and just shopping in general in person, you can smell the clothes, you can try them on. I don’t think it saves you so much time to order things online because, I mean, it does if you’re looking for something really super specific, but. Yeah, you could like I I’ve ordered things from I’ve ordered a lot of things from the real actually and like usually They get in and I’m like, okay cool. We’re okay

Amanda:

Yeah, you’ll know when you’ve been Gained.

Alden:

Yeah.

Amanda:

I think that’s really good advice. I think that we tend to forget about laundry detergent. And I was reading how some of, well, for one, the pods also deposit plastic onto your clothing. And like even these, like detergent sheets.

Alden:

Oh the fabric softeners and the dryer sheets. First of all, they don’t do shit. Okay, so don’t buy them. I mean, you could get, I haven’t used detergent sheets for my entire adult life

Amanda:

No, me neither. They’re so silly. And like you said, they don’t make static go away, if that’s what

you’re battling. Ha ha ha.

Alden:

they just deposit a ton of chemicals. There are studies that I cite in my book that say that like the air coming out of those dryer vents is incredibly toxic because all those things combine and come out and like they turn into chemicals that are like banned and restricted in the United States for use in sales. So it’s pretty wild. The other thing I would say is don’t dry clean your clothes if you can help it. I… haven’t gone to the dry cleaner in a really long time. I just take a spray of water and vinegar or water and vodka. I just rescued a new silk blouse the other day. I spilled coffee on it and the coffee came out when I used a spot cleaning solution of vinegar and water and that will deodorize and vodka and water will also deodorize. So if you can and most things that say that they are dry clean only, they’re just being overly cautious.

Amanda:

Mm-hmm, it’s true. They don’t want you to wash it, damage it, and then try to return it.

Alden:

Right.

Amanda:

Most things are totally fine to hand wash. Yeah, dry cleaning is, I mean, we’ve talked about it at length on clothes in the past, but it’s really bad. And I was clued into that as a teenager when I thrifted a dress for my prom and my mom said, I’m gonna get a dry clean for you, which made me feel so, like, what a luxury, total adult now, right, getting dry cleaning. And I took it out of the bag the night of prom and I put it on and I felt like so adult. And within 30 minutes, my skin was on fire. I broke out in hives from like a neck, it was a maxi dress, a high neck maxi dress from the 70s. So like hives from like my neck to my ankles. Still had a great prom, but you know, like

I was like, huh, could dry cleaning do that? My mom was like. Oh, it’s because I’m wearing old clothes, but it was definitely the dry cleaning, and that’s the only time I’ve dry cleaned anything in my life, and I’m doing just fine. I promise, no one needs to dry clean. Ha ha ha.

Alden:

Yeah, I mean, what’s crazy is I did a lot of research. None of it really made it into the book, but I did a ton of research on super fund sites in the United States, especially related to fashion. So these are sites, they’re called super fund because the EPA created a super fund full of money to help remediate toxic fashion sites. And a lot of them are outside of dye factories, old dye factories, old fashioned factories. And a lot of them that are incredibly toxic are underneath dry cleaning. Stores, old dry cleaning stores.

Amanda:

Yeah, I was reading how just like one drop can go through the floor into the soil under the facility. I mean, it’s like no joke. It’s I mean, you know, before dry cleaning chemicals were invented, they were washing things with gasoline. I don’t know if it’s an improvement. I know. I know. It’s like.

Alden:

There are green dry cleaners. I’m not sure how much better the quote unquote green dry cleaners are. And then there’s, I think it’s called a critical CO2 cleaners which is like the best, but they’re a little bit hard to find.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah. I did a bunch of research into the green dry cleaning thing. And it’s like, it’s one of those like, no one really knows if it’s that much better. But the

CO2 is supposed to be the best. But yeah, I haven’t found a place. I mean, it’s not like I’m looking very hard. I don’t plan on dry cleaning my clothes anyway. But I know that there are some times you’re just like, I cannot save this thing and it could be an option. It makes sense to

But yeah, dry cleaning. laundry detergent. I mean, it’s just like, it’s just all around us. I mean, we could do a whole episode just talking about all those like, Glade plugins and stuff.

Alden:

I know they’re so bad and there’s it there’s like obviously I couldn’t talk about that, but they’re So if somebody’s allergic to a glade plug-in like they need to get that out of their home their home experience And I think you know this I have a lot of I used to live in the suburbs I have a lot of empathy and sympathy for women who are sort of who live in the suburbs because I in New York City none of my friends use glade plugins but like you get to the suburbs in rural areas and it’s like Yankee Candle Glade Plugin City.

Amanda:

Oh man, yeah.

Alden:

And it’s sort of like people try to talk to their friends saying like, hey, this gives me a headache. And it’s like, you can pry my scented products out of my cold dead fingers type of attitude. And it’s just, I’m hoping that this book provides a little bit of like, I’m not crazy. This is real fodder for some of these conversations.

Amanda:

I mean, I love that because I think a lot of us have, whether we’ve been gaslit unintentionally by others or gaslighting ourselves, we think we’re the problem because we’re sensitive. But really, what you’re hitting on are some essential truths here that are science. It’s not just us being sensitive.

Alden:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

So I’m really excited for everyone to read your book and tell everyone about it. Well, thank you so much, Alden. Do you have any last words you want to share? Or if you don’t, that’s cool too.

Alden:

I’m just so excited that this is causing a lot of excitement in people and people are identifying with it and giving me a lot of wonderful feedback. I mean, the reviews have been really good and I would just say like, give the book a chance even if you think, even if you think it sounds farfetched. I think once people get into it, it’s, there’s a lot of convincing, not only scientific evidence, but stories from all sorts of people. about the way this has impacted them and I hope you can start a movement.

Thanks to Alden for spending some time with us and sharing so much helpful (albeit scary) information with us. Please read her book To Dye For: How Toxic Fashion Is Making Us Sick–and How We Can Fight Back. I plan on reading it as soon as I’m done with my job in another week. You can also find more of Alden’s writing (and a lot of helpful information) at ecocult.com. I’ll share a link to that in the show notes.

Ultimately we talk about some scary and depressing stuff around here. And Alden’s findings on the chemicals in our clothing definitely can be described by both of those adjectives. But that doesn’t mean we have the luxury of pretending that we didn’t hear any of this, right? Because once again, we can see how the clothing industry is having a negative impact on every single person in this world. It’s not–as some of us might have once believed–a problem that is far away, happening somewhere we’ll probably never visit. In fact, the repercussions of the fashion industry are playing out in every one of our closets, within our bodies, and in the world around us.

It scares the shit out of me. It makes me so angry. And it makes me so sad.

It’s easy to feel those feelings and kinda shut down. Because sometimes it just feels like life is too big and too hard already, why add more fear and anger to the mix?

But we can’t ignore it. We have to receive the information, process it, grieve the implications of it all –including grieving the realization that big business has been intentionally misleading you for a long time, or at the very least, lying by omission–grieve all of that. Grieve the horrific truth about how our clothes are made and how it impacts the planet and its people. Grieve the fact that we are being sold clothing that is making us sick. Grieve the knowledge that garment workers are paid pennies and work under terrible conditions. Grieve the fact that 85% of our unwanted, barely worn clothes end up in a landfill. And grieve the impact all of that fast fashion has on our planet, its people, and its animals when we are done with it.

It’s okay to be sad and angry. But what are you going to do with that? That’s the big thing! That’s the important thing!

It’s easy to give up, to say I’m one person, I can never have an impact on the world. But that’s not true. Operating alone, yeah, you won’t have much of an impact. But when you’re working with other people, a community like ours that is turning into a movement…big change can happen!

When I hear people say…oh, Amazon has such a bigger impact on the world and there’s nothing I can do about it…that’s just permission to give up. Because the reality is that we have been letting Amazon (and every other company) do whatever the heck they want for years now…and it turns out that we can’t trust them to do the right thing. They aren’t going to change without us. We have to demand it. And we have to do it together!!!

We have a major opportunity to demand change from brands, from our governments, and from ourselves. And we can do that together by learning the facts, unifying, sharing our knowledge and experience, supporting one another, welcoming others into the movement, and educating those around us.

I know we can do that! Who’s in?