Episode 141: Breaking Down Cultural Appropriation with Alex of St. Evens

Description text goes hereWelcome to Clotheshorse, the podcast that has had all the technological problems today and is obsessing over how infuriating planned obsolescence is!

I’m your host Amanda, and this is episode 141. Today’s guest is someone most of you already know, a listener favorite for sure…Alex of St. Evens! Today she and I are going to talk about something that to be honest, can evoke some pretty defensive reactions: Cultural Appropriation. The few times I have posted about this on Instagram, I’ve received some pretty hmmmm…let’s say “visceral” reactions. And I think that is because we are all afraid of being bad people, of hurting someone by accident. We all want to do the best we can, and thinking that we may have made a misstep along the way is excruciating. Don’t think about that right now. Put that fear of being a bad person aside. I would ask all of you to listen to this episode with an open mind and heart, to know that this conversation is not mean to shame you for things you have done or worn in the past, but to help you be an active part of a better future, where no one feels like a joke or a footnote.

In our conversation, Alex will be breaking down the different types of cultural appropriation and we will be sharing examples. We will also talk about why it’s not okay to get “approval” for potentially wrong choices from one person of that race or cultural group. And we will differentiate between cultural appreciation and cultural appropriation.

This is another long conversation–and I think it’s so powerful that it should live on its own–so we are going to jump right into the conversation. I’ll be back at the end to wrap things up!

Amanda

Alex, you’re kind of a regular around here at this point, but why don’t you go ahead and reintroduce yourself remind everyone of who you are.

Alex

Okay. It has been a minute since I’ve been on clotheshorse, but I am so happy to be back. Thank you for having me, Amanda, as always, my name is Alex, I’m based in New York City, I run a vintage clothing brand called St evens. And today, we’re going to be talking about a topic that is really important to me. And I think that it’s something that has affected me personally. And I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about it and writing about it.

Amanda

And I think this conversation comes up a lot at this time of year, but it’s really a conversation we should be having year round. Because it goes beyond Halloween. It goes beyond costumes, and it really is incredibly systemic across all kinds of industries. Right? Oh, yeah, definitely. And that is cultural appropriation.

Alex

Yes. So I mean, there is cultural appropriation, you know, we see it in fashion, clothing, hairstyles and makeup, you know, which is very, like topical with the podcast. But also you see it in food culture really often. You see it in all different types of like art and culture. But it’s definitely something that comes up a lot this time of year. Unfortunately, we’re basically counting down the days now until a well known public figure celebrity shows up somewhere wearing something offensive. It will happen, it happens every single year. So who’s it going to be this year? And what are they going to wear?

Amanda

It’s true, it’s sort of like we made it through Coachella without that, at least as far as I’m aware of. And I think it’s because Coachella was so a little bit smaller this year, because of the pandemic. But normally, we get our first introduction to this during festival season, right? Yeah. And then, of course, often the same celebrity who did something pretty offensive, and I’m thoughtful at Coachella then brings it in a bigger way for Halloween. Yep,

Alex

that sounds. So yeah, I feel like this is a topic that has really only become part of mainstream conversation more recently. It’s certainly not something new. But in terms of it being a frequent conversation, and something that people are really having a lot of discussion around is relatively new for a lot of people. So I think that there’s a lot of nuance here that I kind of want to break down so that people can have a better understanding of the different types of appropriation, you know, how different types of appropriation can be harmful? And why it’s so important to talk about this stuff.

Amanda

Yeah, absolutely. And I’m gonna just preface this by saying that a lot of people shut down when this conversation gets started. And I think there are a variety of reasons why, but it all really comes back to you know, what’s happening inside our minds emotionally. When someone brings up the topic of cultural appropriation, maybe it’s because we feel like, guilty, maybe it’s because we feel like we’re being I don’t know if we’re gonna go into this, but like, we can’t just do what we want. Or maybe it’s just, it’s one of those things that we need to take some time later. And think through everything we just we’re about to hear, right. And so, if cultural appropriation is something that you’ve heard out there, but don’t know a lot about or you’re thinking like, Oh, I think I may have been guilty of this in the past, I want you to know that what’s important is that you take what you’re going to hear today. And you think about it, and you adapt it to your life. And this is just like what you take with you moving forward. Because salutely Like Alex said, I was trying to think when I first started to hear these conversations happening in a more significant way. And as I was like, going back and trying to pinpoint the time in my life, I was sort of surprised to find that I’m not even sure if it was a full 10 years ago, when this these conversations started. And what was specifically making me think that it may not have even been that long ago, is I was thinking about in the late aughts and the early Audis. There were all of those like Pendleton blew up, right. And there was that colab with opening ceremony and people were obsessed with Pendleton. And I never really heard very much about what was problematic about that and I I even feel sort of like I’m soft shoeing around it by saying problematic, but unethical. I guess I’m just gonna say like, I have a lot of issues with Pendleton, which we will talk about here later. But, you know, people were barely I mean, there were whispers here and there about like, hey, there might be something a little wrong with the prints that Pendleton uses but I mean, it was very like oh no, if whatever it was drowned out by every magazine article about the Pendleton, Portland collection and every blog I get people wearing it. And I mean, at that point, I was working at Urban Outfitters, and we were definitely copying those prints, which is unethical as well. And people wouldn’t really talking about it. So it’s it’s really disappointing that this isn’t a conversation that hasn’t been happening for decades or hundreds of years. But I mean, that’s where we are right now. But that was then. And this is now and this is a time where we are going to think about these things, and we’re going to do better.

Alex

Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, this is definitely something that I would assume that almost everyone is guilty of, at some point. I’ve definitely participated in cultural appropriation throughout my lifetime. It’s, a lot of it is just a product of being uninformed, and not having a good understanding of what it is you’re purchasing what it is that you’re participating in, and, you know, we’re gonna break down some of that a little bit more. But you know, you, it’s hard to avoid if you don’t know what it is, or you don’t know that you’re doing it. So really, like, you know, like you said, you just want to take this information and try and be more aware and more conscious moving forward. And yeah, that’s really the best that any of us can do in any situation in which you look back and you’re like, wow, you know, maybe my behavior was not the best that it could have been.

Amanda

Yeah, exactly. Listen, my brain is a database of every embarrassing thing, I still

Alex

lie awake at night thinking about that weird thing you said, like a year

Amanda

ago, or 15 years ago, whatever. Sounds great. And so and you know, like, that’s human nature as well, too. If you’re a good person, which I’m assuming if you’re listening to this, you are you are already thinking about these things. And you are thinking about how you can do better in every day. And this, this is one of those things. I when I see conversations like this happening on social media, you know, I see a vast majority of people are like on board get it? Or like, yes, but then there are those people who and they kind of raised the same arguments time and time again, which I’ll talk about those. Right. And one of those is this, like, social justice warriors, you know, nobody can do what they want anymore. Like these, these liberals, these progressives are really just fascists who don’t let anyone do what they want. It’s almost like, I want to do what I want.

And, I mean, obviously, there’s arguments that are foolish, but it’s always the people who are speaking most loudly about that kind of freedom, who then want to usurp on other freedoms that people have and show yeah,

Alex

good are legit. Yeah, right. Yep. Very hypocritical. Very, very. So I did want to preface this conversation a little bit by just talking about myself, personally, I am half Japanese and half white, I grew up moving around a lot, I lived in Asia and my childhood, I’ve lived in different parts of America. I, you know, have grown up around a lot of different types of people in different, you know, racial groups, different ethnic backgrounds. And I just wanted to say that, you know, when I am talking here, I’m not speaking for anyone else. I’m not speaking for the Japanese community. I’m not speaking for the half Japanese community. You know, all of these conversations, there’s so much nuance here, that there is no one person that represents any group. And, you know, you see this a lot in these conversations, oh, well, you know, my friend is okay with it, or my friend thought it was funny. And the thing is, is that, you know, as the same with, we all have a different sense of taste, we all have a different sense of humor, we also all have different levels of what we feel comfortable with. So just because one person is comfortable with something or thinks that something is okay or not, okay, does not mean that other people agree with them. So I just kind of wanted to put that out here out there. Before we start talking that, you know, I’m in no way trying to speak for anyone, I just kind of wanted to shed some light on generally what this sort of behavior looks like and how we can discuss it. I think that a lot of times we see appropriation happening, and it makes us uncomfortable, but we’re not necessarily able to articulate why. So I feel like breaking down the types of appropriation and why each type is harmful or inappropriate, really helps people kind of approach these situations with this sense of understanding. And you’re then able to express Hey, I don’t think that we should be doing this and here’s why. And that’s that, yeah,

Amanda

I think in most cases, you know, that something feels off when you are encountering cultural appropriation, but like you said, you don’t know how to articulate that and most certainly, when you don’t feel confident articulating it, you don’t feel confident calling it out. Yeah, it’s

Alex

really, it’s really hard to say like, Hey, I don’t think you should do that. But I can’t explain to you why. Yeah, that’s not very, and it’s also just not effective, like, people aren’t going to listen to that. This is already a difficult conversation to have, it’s very difficult to approach someone and say, Hey, I think you did something wrong. It’s hard to do. It’s also hard to hear. So I think that the more understanding you’re able to have around this topic, the easier it is to actually approach that in a way that’s kind and respectful and in a way that people might be more receiving of. So, you know, like you had mentioned before, when a instance of cultural appropriation does show up, and it’s a conversation topic, a bunch of people are chiming in on it, they’re kind of two like takes that I see people arguing against it. Yeah, and the two responses that you usually see are the response A, which is like, no one’s allowed to do anything anymore. No one knows how to take a joke. No one has a sense of humor these days type comments. And then there’s the people who are like, who cares? People just want something to be upset about, this doesn’t really matter. Everyone’s so sensitive, that kind of thing. So that first group of people that’s upset that, you know, quote, unquote, no one’s allowed to wear what they want these days, I think that people get really caught up in this idea of being not allowed to do things. Yeah. And this particularly applies towards white sis hat people, especially men. And I think that a lot of it has to do with it. This is the first time that a lot of restrictions have been placed on these groups in particular, you know, historically, people in power have been able to do whatever they want, if people were offended by it, or hurt by it, like no one could speak up or do anything. And in fact, these people were often the ones that were creating the rules and regulations, everyone else was required to abide by. So you know, if you’re, if the group that you belong to culturally, and historically has always been able to do whatever, and you’re now being told, actually, here are some things you shouldn’t be doing. Like, I think that’s just, it’s a weird thing for people to have to face. And they’re just not used to it.

Amanda

Yeah, yeah. And I do like to think, although I often am very naively optimistic about certain things, that when people are called out on this, and I in a constructive way, right, that even if at first glance or first hearing, I guess, they are defensive or don’t want to hear it, or like, whatever, you just want to be upset. I do like to believe that they walk away, and later they think about it, and they think like, okay, you know what, there might be something there, like, I hope I shouldn’t be afraid to speak up about this is what I’m saying, you know,

Alex

totally. And also same goes for the people who are maybe put in the situation where someone is approaching them and telling them that they did something that could have, you know, was offensive, if your first reaction is to feel very defensive, very upset, and say, No, you’re wrong, I didn’t do that. And you walk away from it and really think about it, like you’re allowed to change your mind, you’re allowed to go back and say, Hey, listen, I thought a lot more about what you said, and I’m sorry, I reacted that way. You know, it was an emotional reaction. And I’ve thought about it. And I’ve actually changed my mind. Like, we really like like, let’s normalize changing our minds, you don’t need to be set in one way of thinking we don’t need to be set in one opinion, like, it is totally okay to take some time bullet over and come back with a totally different perspective.

Amanda

Exactly. We’ve all made mistakes in our lives, we’ve all done the wrong things. Where it becomes a big problem is if you never learned from that. Absolutely.

Alex

Yeah. So I mean, I think in this in this sense, we really need to start shifting the narrative away from the quote unquote, rights of the appropriator. And we really need to start thinking about the feelings, the history and the significance of the cultures that are being appropriated. You know, this conversation, it’s not about telling people that they aren’t allowed to do things, it’s about holding people accountable when they choose to do things that are harmful or offensive, in the same way that you’re allowed to do what you want to do. People are also allowed to react to your behavior in the way that they want to. So like if you genuinely believe in the quote, unquote, freedom of wearing what you want, or styling your clothes how you want, then you also believe in the freedom of people publicly critiquing your choices. Like it goes both ways.

Amanda

Right, right. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that is, that is a hard pill for some people to swallow.

Alex

Absolutely. Definitely. Yes. And we see it, you know, again, we see these comments all the time. It’s such a common comment, like no one knows how to take a joke and that kind of thing. And I think that yeah, that’s really what it boils down to. Another important point here is that a lot of times when these behaviors are being punished, they’re being punished by like private companies, institutions and businesses. So when you’re like, Oh, I’m not allowed to wear this costume anymore. Like, you know, your rights aren’t being infringed upon, you’re not being like arrested, you’re, you know, it’s at your job or at your school or say you create an account on a social media site or you sit down at a restaurant, like in those situations, you’re required to abide by the rules of that particular establishment, you know, saying whatever you want on like Twitter that’s not protected by free speech. Twitter is a private company, they have their own rules. And if you break those rules, they’re allowed to kick you off the website. Yeah, yeah, they don’t. Yeah. And same goes with, you know, people being fired from their jobs or being kicked out of schools, like there are codes of conduct at most universities. And, of course, if you think that that code of conduct is problematic, and there are issues within that, that’s a whole separate conversation to have. And like, you’re, you know, you may very well be right, in that regard. However, there are still rules. And, you know, those aren’t like, that’s free speech does not cover your behavior at like a private establishment. That’s not how that works. I think a lot of people get very confused there. And they conflate this idea of like, America and freedom as like, I can do anything I want anywhere. And like that is not how that works. It is true, though,

Amanda

that that is like when people are you. I mean, you there’s a lot of that going on right now with social media where people feel there’s like, I don’t know, it’s a little bit of a conspiracy theory. In fact, it’s not a little bit, it’s a lot of it, that social media is trying to silence right wing voices, conservative voices, I think is probably what they call themselves. And I’m like, Did you see what you guys were posting? Yeah.

Alex

Like these social media platforms, you’re posting on their private companies, they have rules. And again, if you think the rules are flawed, that’s a separate conversation to be having.

Amanda

Yeah, absolutely.

Alex

So then we’ve got the other group of people who are like, everyone’s so sensitive, who cares, this doesn’t actually, there are more important things happening in the world. So to this, I just have to say that the reactions to these behaviors, they haven’t actually changed, they’ve always been harmful, like, PC culture isn’t to blame for people suddenly being upset. In the past, people just didn’t know that you were participating in appropriation, or they didn’t have a safe or effective way to call you out for it. So if you’re just now finding out that people think something is offensive, it’s not because people just decided to be offended. It’s because you’re just finding out that people have always felt this way.

Amanda

It’s true.

Alex

It’s not new. And the thing is, is that okay, so say you wore an offensive costume to a Halloween party. You know, if you went to a party in the 80s, and this costume, if there is not a person at that party from that marginalized group, there’s a good chance that no one at that event is offended by this, you’re not posting the photo anywhere publicly that people can see. So like, how are the marginalized group that you’re then stereotyping? How are they going to know that you were you were this costume, they won’t. And so things have changed so much now that now everyone’s posting everything, and now people are seeing this behavior, and they’re calling it out. And in the past, also, you know, especially in Western society, white supremacy has prevented marginalized communities from speaking up, it was often unsafe for people to say anything, you know, it could literally put your life in danger to speak out. And if it were not necessarily an issue of safety, it’s also just like, it’s a social thing. You know, like, growing up, I you know, the second half of high school, I went to a very, very white high school, I was one of the only students in the entire school that wasn’t white. And I often found myself laughing along with jokes that I found really offensive because I don’t like you know, you want to be cool, you want to be chill, you don’t want to be the all of the stereotypical angry you know, upset POC that’s getting offended at everything and can’t take a joke and whatever. And especially when you’re a young person, like that desire to fit in and that desire to be accepted by your peers, I think really, Trump’s over the desire to stand up for what’s right, especially in a situation like that.

Amanda

Yeah, absolutely. I and I will say like, if you’re listening to this and you’re white, if you are a woman, if you are not straight, I think you can also understand Oh, absolutely. This

Alex

and, and, you know, appropriation applies to all marginalized groups like you know, queer culture can be appropriated. You know, trans culture can be appropriated like it isn’t just about race. Obviously, a bulk of our conversation is about race and ethnicity, but it goes As far beyond that as well, yeah, yeah. So then you’ve got the people who are like, who cares? Why does this matter? To those people, I just have to say you’re purposely missing the point. If you are answering it on this discussion, it means that people care enough to create the content that you’re commenting on in the first place. Like, if no one cared, we wouldn’t even be talking about it. If you’re commenting on a Tic Toc, if you’re commenting on a news article like that means that people not only cared enough to create this content, but the content has enough traction that you’re now seeing it when you’re clearly not the target audience here.

Amanda

Oh, my God, I love the people who who are like, who cares, but care enough to write a comment that says, Who cares?

Alex

Exactly. And so basically, if you say, Who cares? What you’re actually saying is, I don’t care about these people’s feelings. So like, just say that then?

Amanda

Yeah, just Yeah. It’s like, take a moment. I think about I mean, I don’t think anybody who’s listening to this conversation is is of the WHO CARES variety. You are, if you’re some if you’re like, hate listening to this episode, just as you want to be angry at us, I would ask you to take a step back and say like, okay, so wait a minute, do you really not care about other people and how they feel because that is what you are saying, we’re not saying who cares? And or even when you say, nobody can do anything anymore? Or whatever, what you’re saying is, I don’t really care about how other people feel. Yep. And what person would actually feel comfortable, like making that statement? Absolutely. And

Alex

that’s what so much of appropriation is, especially when it comes to forms of appropriation that have been such a large topic of a conversation that I would be really surprised by most people like being unaware of it, you know, and again, we’re talking specifically about America about Western culture. But like, take someone wearing a indigenous headpiece to a festival as an example, like, that’s been publicly lambasted so often now that like, I think we’d be hard pressed to find someone who had absolutely no idea that that was seen as insensitive. So if you have that information, and you are continuing to engage in that behavior, again, all you’re saying is, I don’t care. That’s what it is. You’re saying, I don’t care that people are upset by this. I don’t care that it’s offensive. I don’t care about the community that I’m misrepresenting. And people are allowed to say, Okay, well, I think that sucks. And I think that you’re an asshole for not caring

Amanda

100% 100%. And once again, like, Would you really say that you don’t care? Like it’s Yeah. For me?

Alex

I hope not. But like I yeah, in these situations, it’s hard to say. And so then, you know, for the people who, again, with the who care stuff, or like, you know, why does this really matter? Is it a big deal, there are more important things happening in the world. This is something you talk about a lot on the podcast, but all of these things are interconnected. You know, right, white supremacy, poverty, like systemic inequity, those things are all wrapped up in one, they’re not separate from each other. Nothing exists in a bubble. So appropriation plays a large part in that, I mean, the theft of like art and our ideas that can directly harm the creators of this art. You know, we talk about plagiarism. So extensively in school, we talk about stealing ideas with no credit, and we talk about how, you know, that’s unethical and immoral, like you’ll get kicked out of school for doing that. And yet, we’re allowed to somehow do that when we’re out in the world and expect people not to cut like, have any repercussions for that.

Amanda

I mean, when you say it like that, it’s just ridiculous. Yeah,

Alex

it really is. And then on top of that, you know, appropriation it can perpetuate really harmful stereotypes. And these stereotypes can lead to discrimination bullying, fetishization. I mean, they can even lead to physical violence, like, you know, it’s obviously not a direct point A to point B. But consuming, appropriated content and seeing people normalize, like harmful stereotypes and mockery that normalizes that behavior. And that creates ideas in people’s head that lead them to commit hate crimes to, you know, become radicalized, and it’s all it’s all very connected. It’s not its own separate thing. And then on top of that, appropriation really contributes to the erasure and the whitewashing of culture and art. You know, we love to take something from a very specific community and kind of strip it of all its identifying factors. You know, and then really it, like we said before, it just boils down to respect. There are some forms of cultural appropriation that are genuinely respectful. Most of them aren’t. It’s just be respectful. That’s really all it is be respectful of other people. And if you are not respectful by accident, you know, apologize and fix the behavior.

Amanda

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, another argument that I hear a lot that is adjacent to this is like, well, it’s not cultural appropriation. It’s cultural appreciation. Have you heard this one? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And once again, I would say like, appreciating whom, you know, like, if, if this makes other people feel bad, then I don’t really think you’re appreciating anything.

Alex

Oh, yeah. Yep. Then that I’ll get a little bit more into that when I get to one of my points here, which I guess we can dive into. Now.

Amanda

Let’s dive into it. Because there are a lot of different types. Yeah, cultural appropriation. They’re adjacent but they’re different. And I think as we walk through these, you’re going to see how they permeate so many different aspects of our life. They go beyond Halloween costumes or even clothing. Absolutely.

Alex

So I think the first type of cultural appropriation is just mockery. It’s probably like the most easy to spot you can identify very easily. And this is one that again, we see a lot of around Halloween. It’s just, you know, something that’s, it’s just offensive. It’s a stereotype. It’s portraying a culture or group of people in a negative light or making fun of them. If you’re wearing any sort of costume that has like, a ethnic or cultural aspect to it, like it shouldn’t be a joke. You know, it really shouldn’t be funny, unless it’s your own culture. That is a totally different thing. But like, if you’re wearing the outfit of a different culture than you, it better not be for funny reasons. Because it’s probably not funny.

Amanda

I know. I mean, I My hope is that there is no one listening to this podcast. Who would ever do that? Because that I mean, that said, I see it out there.

Alex

Oh, I was literally at a store yesterday. And I saw a costume. What was it called? It was called like, tequila chugging dude. And it was a quote unquote, Mexican guy costume.

Amanda

Like, I thought it was gonna be a frat boy. Now that would

Alex

be no, it was, it was like, you know, with a fake mustache and a poncho, and it was for sale yesterday. Like, this is not something that’s gone away, it’s still available to buy at the store, there are plenty of people who are going to go buy it and wear it. And for this to, it’s really important to note, the historical context of you know, these types of quote unquote, jokes, what the different stereotypes are with different racial tropes are there a lot of things that you may not perceive to be offensive if you don’t have a clear understanding of the culture and history of how different communities have been marginalized. So, you know, if something doesn’t seem offensive to you, and someone says, Hey, actually, you know, this term was used derogatorily towards this group 50 years ago, and someone’s now bringing it, you know, as a costume or a joke or whatever, you know, you want to take that knowledge, think about it, and be like, okay, you know, this wasn’t something bad from what I saw it first, but there was deeper meaning there. Totally. Yeah, agreed. So that one’s like pretty cut and dry. I feel like it’s just for the most part, it’s pretty obvious. Number two is misappropriation. And this one’s a little bit more complicated. So this is generally when you incorrectly attribute a cultural practice or you generalize like an entire race or continent. So this goes from, you know, calling a robe a kimono, calling all headscarves burqa, if you were to describe a Thai dish as Chinese or if you were to take a textile from a specific African country and call it ethnic or tribal and worst case scenario, symbolism or artifacts with a religious or spiritual or ceremonial meaning are being misused or mis attributed. I would say that that’s probably like the worst offender in this camp. Is Yeah, taking things that have a deep, important cultural significance to people and turning it into like jewelry or a t shirt.

Amanda

I just saw you. And when you and I were preparing for this episode, I was telling you like, as a person who’s worked in the fashion industry for so long now, this is just a recurring nightmare that I campaign with. Yeah. And like, I have to tell you that there are very few situations in my career where I’ve had this conversation with someone, and it was productive. Because like, if you think that it’s hard to go up to some asshole at a party, and tell him that his costume is racist. Imagine, I want to tell you that it’s like 10,000 times harder to go to your boss at work and say, like, hey, we can’t sell this. Yeah,

Alex

I can’t. I mean,

Amanda

I, you know, the whole ethnic, I have sort of, like, I don’t know, snarkily laugh to myself, when you talked about people calling textiles, ethnic or tribal? Because those are literally attributes in the system. Shouldn’t you and I

Alex

still see it all the time, if you go on to online right now and type those words in with like pants shirt blanket, like you would find hundreds and 1000s of items being sold with those specific keywords,

Amanda

which I mean, they just I full body cringe when I hear either of those words, you know, especially being applied to clothing or home decor. And this idea of like, it’s, I mean, I’m going to call something out right now that I’m seeing a lot. And this is something I’ve actually have to deal with at my current job where we were selling a lot of stuff that we were, this is before I joined the company that was being attribute it as like the spiritual products, things that were like for people who are into spirituality. And they were, I know that no one had any bad intent intentions here, right? Like, I know, no one was trying to hurt someone. But there would be packages that were like amalgamation of Muslim and Hindu prints on them. And I’m like, that’s who says, this is her some like, clueless, I’m sorry, I’m gonna say it, some clueless white lady who is like, I’m spiritual, is going to buy this candle that has all these mixtures of sacred iconography on them that should not live together. She certainly doesn’t know it, any of these mean, and a company that’s making products like that is doing a disservice to both the groups of people that they are, you know, appropriating and the consumers out there who are never going to learn any better. And I just it this is like one of those things I feel like I have been fighting with, with people about four years, like, I’ve always been that like, person at work, who’s like, You’re too sensitive, or you think about things too much. And I’m like, this is this is messed up. I mean, honestly, like, even for me, you know, I I am white. But I also am what people would call white trash. I grew up in a trailer park and I had to live through the 90s and the early aughts, with people such reasons I cannot understand appropriating what it is to be a poor white person in a trailer park, and being like, oh my god, it’s so white trash. I mean, Dustin, told me a story about being asked to DJ a white trash party.

Alex

Like, I remember hearing about parties like that. I feel like that was a pretty Oh, like college party theme in like the early 2000s. For whatever reason.

Amanda

Yeah. Gross, gross. And like I you know, I’m not even sure if that is like purely, that’s not really cultural appropriation as much as it is, like, just mocking poor people.

Alex

It is. It’s mockery. And yeah, again, it’s these terms are all very nuanced. And I don’t know that it would count, but also, like, doesn’t not count. I don’t, you know, it’s you’re still making fun of a group of people in a way that’s very insensitive. And I think that, you know, you would be in the right to say, hey, like, I don’t think this is cool. I think it’s really mean, and I find it very hurtful.

Amanda

Right, right. And if you would hear about if like, you just heard us talk about a white trash party, and you were disgusted, and thought that that was so cruel and rude, that I want you to understand it’s similar, and just as offensive to like, make a candle that has a mixture of different religious iconography on it that has nothing to do with your own culture. And it’s just being commodified as a product for people who are, quote, spiritual. If you think a white trash party sounds okay, we need to have a conversation. That’s a different conversation.

Alex

I mean, here’s the thing misappropriation it basically just comes down to being wrong.

Amanda

Yeah, unfortunately Yeah, that’s

Alex

what it that’s really what it is. Is it like factually, you are misrepresenting the facts. You’re misrepresenting the idea, the concept whatever it is that you have here, it’s just incorrect. And, you know, it can definitely be intentional. I think this is one of the most common types of appropriation. And I think most people participate in this, to some degree, myself included. And this is just because we aren’t taught or exposed to enough global culture.

Amanda

Absolutely. It’s such an educational opportunity. Absolutely, especially in

Alex

the West, especially with our education system, like our knowledge of geography is straight up embarrassing compared to other countries, we are not taught about cultures of the world, we’re just not given enough information to actually approach these things with like the right facts. And I think that this can largely be avoided by just being conscious of what you’re consuming. So if you really think about like, where is this object that I’m buying coming from? Does the person who either makes it or sells it know what they’re talking about, you know, who made this item who is actually profiting off of the sale of this item, you know, who owns the store? Who owns this restaurant, like, if you think about all of those things, as you’re moving through the world and buying clothes, jewelry, food, I think that you can actually avoid a lot of this by just, you know, approaching it the right way.

Amanda

This is one of those moments where you can shut down and be like, nobody can do anything anymore, or cover your ears or walk away, pause this episode, whatever. But really, this is like the beginning of an acknowledge opportunity for you. And like, I would say, for me, learning more about different kinds of people and people in the world as a whole is one of life’s greatest pleasures. I agree. And this is like this could be the first day of the rest of your life basically, is what I’m saying?

Alex

Absolutely. It is definitely a learning opportunity. And as with anything else, like again, if you say something and it is factually incorrect, and someone says, Hey, actually, you know, that movie didn’t come out in 1975. It came out in 1977, you would just go Oh, oops, I didn’t realize it. You know, I didn’t know. And then now, you know, in the future, it’s very similar in a situation like this. If you say, oh, you know, that’s my favorite Indian dish. And they go, Oh, actually, that’s a Pakistani dish. You go, Oh, my God, I had no idea. And then you might go look it up. You know, that’s an opportunity for you to learn more about Pakistani cuisine. And that might be your favorite food, you know? Yeah.

Amanda

Actually, Pakistani cuisine is great. You should go out and stuff right now. Yeah.

Alex

So I think that a really good example that I’ve come up with that I think frames this in a way that everyone can understand. Because again, we’ve talked about this, if you’re not part of any marginalized community, it can be more difficult for you to maybe put yourselves in someone’s shoes. And think about why this is so harmful. So I think that a good example is okay, say me, Alex, and you, Amanda, are each making art, right? We’re both artists, we both have our art that we’re selling. somebody buys your art, they love it, and they like take it home, they put it up, and they’re showing it to all their friends and their family. And they’re like, Oh, don’t you love this art? Alex made it? And you’re like, oh, actually, I made that. And they go, Oh, well, it doesn’t really matter. Or, or even worse, they go Oh, Alex, that’s you. You’re Alex’s same thing.

Amanda

Right? I mean, that is a really great way to explain it.

Alex

That’s, that’s what it is. And it’s like that is harmful. And it doesn’t matter if you know, maybe your art and my art are similar. We might both be painters, we might both use a very similar color palette, we might both be really inspired by Matisse, but it’s still not the same thing. It doesn’t matter if we draw inspiration from similar sources, if visually to the untrained eye looks quote unquote, the same. It’s not the same. It’s coming from two different people. We are two distinct individuals. And it’s disrespectful to say otherwise. Yeah,

Amanda

absolutely. I think that’s a really great, simple way to break it down. And, you know, I think we’ve probably all had moments in our lives where we felt as if we didn’t get credit for our work, or someone else took credit for it. And when we called it out if we felt brave enough to call it out, and people people probably dismissed us.

Alex

Yeah, socks it really, really terrible feeling it really is. Exactly. And you know, when someone says, oh, you know, oh, Chinese, Japanese, same thing. That is, you know, that is saying two distinct and extremely different cultures that each have, you know, millions and millions of people within their communities and that have then so many sub cultures within those countries are all one big blob, and it’s all the same extract wrong. It’s just not true.

Amanda

I mean, think about here in the United States, if you said that, like Southern people are the same as people from the Pacific Northwest. They would be butthurt people would be butthurt. Right? Yeah,

Alex

well, and worse than that, But it’s so interesting that like, because of white supremacy because of Western imperialism, there has been this importance placed on learning about Western culture, learning about white culture, European culture. So like, we in the West have a very clear understanding of the difference between Italians and Germans. Right? Like, we know it’s not the same, we know the culture is different, even though they’re both like white cultures, they’re both from the same continent, we have a very distinct understanding that the food is different, the language is different, the art style is different. And like you would never wear a leader Hosen and call it a European costume that’s

Amanda

admired.

Alex

People would be so quick to correct you, they’d be so quick to be Oh, for no or for that’s from a specific country in Europe, not all of Europe. But like, why can you have a you know, African textile like, Okay, that’s a continent? Where in Africa?

Amanda

I know when I hear that, well, you know, there are a lot of people who think that Africa is a country, which is okay, I know, this goes back to this idea that like people, we need more education. Absolutely. And unfortunately, you know, you didn’t get it in school. No. So learn it on your own learning is great. Yeah, no, that’s just that’s just where we are. I mean, I hear this constantly where, you know, I guess Australia is its own continent. So like, fine. That’s like the one. That’s the only country that is a whole continent. And yet I hear people speak about Asia as a monolith. I hear people talking about Africa as a monolith. I hear people talk about South America, but call it Mexico. I mean, like this, we, we need to learn we need to teach ourselves, and hopefully, you know, teach others by example, you know, yeah, absolutely.

Alex

I mean, it really, and that’s the thing, too, is that like, we are now at a point in time and in society, in Western culture, that we have access to this information. So there isn’t that we don’t really have that many excuses for not doing the work, at least, like the minimal amount of work it takes to just sit there and Google something really quick. And be like, hey, where does this come from? Actually, like, you can figure it out. And if you don’t want to, again, it just comes down to you saying I don’t care enough to do this.

Amanda

That is what it is. And once again, say that out loud. Imagine saying that to someone? I don’t care enough. Yeah. That’s no one wants to no one would say that. Yeah, I mean, maybe like 1% of people, those people or they have other issues.

Alex

I guess I think really like misappropriation just comes down to being wrong. It’s something we all do. It’s something that is relatively easy to correct. There’s like a very cut and dry correction there. Like I said, this wrong here is what’s actually right, here’s what I meant to say you inform yourself, you educate yourself, and then you move on, and you don’t make that mistake in the future. Absolutely, yeah. So the next form of appropriation is staking claims slash taking credit. So this is when someone claims that they invented or improved upon a practice, from their own culture. And this also includes stripping identifying information. So like we said, labeling a garment as like ethnic, that’s also kind of taking credit for it. Because like, you’re not giving credit to anyone. I mean, generally, when the term ethnic is used, like it’s basically interchangeable for not white. Yeah. So like, are you giving credit to every single non white person? Like that’s the global majority, like, that’s not giving credit to anyone?

Amanda

What’s good? That’s like if you created a piece of art, and someone just said, this is woman art.

Alex

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it just doesn’t make any sense. You’re not giving credit to anyone. So yeah, that is included in staking claims. It’s also when someone is profiting from a practice that’s not within their own culture. And this is especially more so if they are not using the wealth, the you know, advancements in society in order to give back to that culture in a significant way. And not to say that giving back to the culture makes it right. But if you are profiting off of it, and you are successful via this venture, you’re definitely way less prone to be receiving rightful criticism if you are finding a way to use that to support this community. So this this specific version of appropriation happens most often surrounding like public figures or businesses, it’s a lot less about individual behavior. So some like recent examples, right now, there’s this big thing going on with Haley Bieber. It is all over Tik Tok. She apparently put on like brown lip liner and a clear gloss and called it a brownie glazed it. And people very quickly were like, Hey, this is something that black women and Latino women have been doing forever. It is not new to Haley Bieber, she did not invent anything. And I don’t think that she she didn’t claim to have invented it. However, I think that a lot of the issue with things that happened like this with public figures is not necessarily solely her fault, but it’s also a lot about the media revolving around it. Absolutely. So, you know, while she does have some responsibility as a figure who has this very large platform in order to do her research, like she has all the resources available to her. The fault also lies in media companies picking this up and being like hot new fall fashion, Allah Hailey Bieber, you know, Haley Bieber, Queen of the brownie lip or whatever, like all of these publications, then picking up on it and crediting her for it are part of the problem. This is

Amanda

an example of like, maybe Hailey Bieber isn’t the problem here. But media is and I see this happening in many other areas. Oh, absolutely. Are They’re advancing. I mean, it just as as it as media can legitimize greenwashing and may turn it into fact, by repeating it over and over again, media can kind of erase and at the same time, amplify cultural appropriation by repeating over and over again, just enough times, that Haley Bieber created that makeup look, you know, or many, many other things that Pendleton invented these prints. Yeah,

Alex

people people literally don’t know, like Peter Pendleton. And they think that those designs are original to that company, they don’t realize that they were indigenous prints that were being used for a very long time before Pendleton even existed. And again, there may be young girls out there who see this Haley Bieber makeup look and think that she created it, you know? Yeah. And so I think also, like, in situations like this, public figures have a opportunity to really use this situation and try and, you know, like, lift up the community that they’re being accused of appropriating? Like, you know, in this situation, I think the ideal way for someone like that to have handled it would to be like, make another statement or video saying, Hey, I shared this makeup look, I thought it looks really great. I just want to let you guys know that this is not something that I came up with. It’s something that people have been doing for a really long time. Here are, you know, you could, she could talk about historical examples of people wearing this makeup, she could share her favorite black or Latina beauty creators, and like, you know, she could change people’s lives sharing these platforms. Absolutely. She has millions of followers. So like, if you. And again, this is not to attack her specifically, I’m just using her as an example. Because this is something that is really relevant, people are talking about it right now. And part of the reason that people are so upset is because when something like this happens, it takes away opportunity from the people who actually deserve it. You know, there are so many beauty bloggers, beauty content creators that are actually part of the black and Latino communities that really deserve this platform. And they’re being robbed of that, because, you know, these magazines want to talk about Haley Bieber instead. Yeah, is that Haley’s fault? Not necessarily. It’s really comes down to, you know, media, how people are consuming things. And I just think that there are a lot of different ways that that could be gone about that would make a much better resolution than what we’ve seen.

Amanda

Well, and Haley Bieber has a unique power that, you know, you and I don’t have right, which is that she could she could change that narrative. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And that that’s frustrating to me. I mean, I’m sure someone on her team is thinking about that right now, I hope. But, you know, this is another example of like using your platform, no matter how big it is, to change the narrative, even if it’s just for the three people that live in your house. You know, I think that these are really important conversations to have, even on an individual level. And to really, you know, set people straight about things. I mean, I think Pendleton always comes back to me time and time again, because it was a brand I knew of that is, you know, so entangled in Portland, which is a place you know, I live for a big chunk of my adult life. And I didn’t know a lot about the company, but I certainly recognize the origin of their prints. And I mean, I was like, I’m from the East Coast. Like, I don’t know anything about the West. I assumed that Pendleton must be a native owned company. I seriously, I just assumed, yeah. And I imagine learning otherwise.

Alex

Yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of people would either assume that or again, in the latter camp, there gonna be a lot of people who have no idea that that’s even connected to indigenous culture at all.

Amanda

No, I would agree. I think that some people probably think it’s like, oh, it’s Western, right? Or it’s Portland or Pacific Northwest. I mean, certainly calling their collection with American opening ceremony, the Portland collection, definitely erased the origin of those prints. Absolutely. And

Alex

again, with stripping, identifying information, like, you know, native culture is not a monolith. There are so many different tribes, that these prints and patterns are coming from specific groups of people, and there are ways to find out who it’s coming from. So it’s not just, you know, it’s all native, they’re all the same, like you could sit down and pull a specific textile and work with people to find out what specific tribe that textile is from.

Amanda

Right and right, and like, how is this benefiting? That tribe,

Alex

it’s not at all. And yeah, and the thing is, is that a lot of these large companies, if they genuinely loved the culture, and respected the culture, and wanted to amplify it, and uplift it, there are ways that you can do that. You can use your wealth, you can use your resources and your platform to, for example, they could partner with a specific native community, they could staff the project with indigenous people that they were paying the same full salary that they would pay white people. And they could, you know, they could take less of a profit, they could provide a history lesson and illuminate the culture in the society along with the products that they’re selling. Like, there are ways they could go about this in which it would garner way less criticism, people would probably be like, be really cool with it, because that would be like a really great opportunity for a lot of people. But most brands don’t want to do that. It’s too much work. And it’s not enough money.

Amanda

I’m not going to say why or how I know this, but I want to say like I know, for certain have received this information directly. That, you know, Pendleton sells a lot of their blankets, which you know, they are made with prints that, you know, were stolen from various tribes, they do a pretty significant amount of business selling those blankets. Yep. To the members of those tribes for use in both like, you know, as baby gifts, and also like as an integral part of funeral ceremonies. That’s probably not the right term. I was like, it’s not exactly a funeral. But you know what I mean? Like it’s

Alex

party, like Burial Rites or Burial Rites. Yeah, it’s actually

Amanda

a key elements of the lives of Native Americans in the Pacific Northwest, right. So I want you to think about this promo. This is a company that sold these prints is making money off of them. And then it’s selling these blankets back to the people where these prints originated. Like, it’s unethical in so many ways. And there are ways that this could change, right? I absolutely right. Like you were saying like, Okay, let’s get a lot of the white people out of a story and get, like the actual members of these tribes working for this company being paid a good wage that is equivalent to their white counterparts. Let’s give credit where credit is deserved. And yeah, take a smaller cut of the profits, then maybe this around, but like as it exists right now. It’s really troubling to me.

Alex

It’s terrible. And I mean, this, you know, again, the Pendleton has been around for a very long time. They’ve been doing this for decades and decades now. Yeah, there are a lot of companies that you know, have done this over the years and like this is still happening today. There are new companies that are still doing this. The most recent one I can think of is the white lady Mahjong company.

Amanda

Oh, my God, this one. Is this still happening? Very soon.

Alex

I don’t know whatever ended up happening to them. I’m like a little scared to look it up. I’m, like afraid that they’re just totally fine and selling these sets.

Amanda

I don’t want to think about it also. Okay, so do you want to tell people a little bit about this?

Alex

Yes. So I didn’t really do research. This is just me kind of going off of what I remember from when this was like a new story, I think about a year or two ago. But it was basically like these two or three white women who I want to say grew up playing Mahjong, or like, played it together and really loved it and like that was like their thing and their friendship was so they would get together and play, which is great. That’s totally fine. They decided they wanted to make their own company they were going to create their own Mahjong sets with their own tiles. And the thing with this game is not only is it cultural least significant in China, but also the tiles like the things that are on the tiles are also significant. Like they have meaning. They’re not just like cute symbols for fun. They’re, they have specific cultural meaning. And so these ladies just like made their own tiles with basically like cute shit on them. There were like, this one has bunnies on it now, which, like, you’re taking the actual meaning out of it, and just making it like an aesthetic thing, right. And so obviously, people were like, This is insane. And they had a very brief chunk of like history of the game on their website. And their, the history that they offered was basically like, Mahjong was brought over by the Chinese to America, it became really popular in New York, specifically in Jewish communities, and a lot of like, older Jewish women play, and they really love the game. And it like is a way for them to come together and socialize and whatever. And that was kind of all they said about it. So they basically like, decided to completely ignore the like, I think 1000s of years of history, and kind of just talk about like, and here’s where the white people came in, which like, is just you’re Yeah, you’re just missing, like so much backstory for that. It’s totally fine to talk about contemporary history, and how the game has been adopted by people. But it’s problematic when you’re just failing to mention the actual culture in which this originates. And so not only did they neglect to tell the history, they changed the actual, you know, aesthetic of the game in a way that they felt was like more cute or palatable, but they basically marketed it as like a we’ve revamped this game. For Western audiences. They

Amanda

called it not your mama’s ma Jiang, in case you’re wondering,

Alex

which like, why we don’t who needs that? Right now, I asked her that

Amanda

note, the other thing that just like pisses me off. I mean, they’re like 9000, things that pissed me off of one is that this place is still in business and posts on Instagram as recently as 10 hours ago, although now they’re trying. Now they’re trying to show some they have one set that has like traditional Chinese art. These sets are 325 to $425.

Alex

And you want to know what I, I am so sure that if you looked into their production and their manufacturing, who do you think is making these? Oh, yeah,

Amanda

totally. The same factories that make regular watch on sales. Yeah,

Alex

I would not be surprised if East Asian women are making these sites and being paid next to nothing so that they can sell them for $400. And pocket most of which, like, if that isn’t the ultimate irony, like. And so you know, I think this was like, a really good example of just like a very obvious form of staking claim and taking credit. People were upset by this rightfully, but they’re still in business. So

Amanda

yeah, yeah. I mean, there was also that another like a white lady kanji company. Wow. Same thing where they were like, we’re making it healthier. And I was, yeah, I just, it’s funny to me, because and I think that goes back to people not feeling empowered to speak up when they know something is wrong or not knowing how to articulate it. And so hopefully, listening to this conversation will help all of you articulate that in the future. But like, told me that there was not one person with these maj on ladies or the kanji people who were like, you know, there might be something wrong here. Yeah. Like how, how well, and it’s just

Alex

like, it’s like you said, it’s such a learning opportunity. There’s such a beautiful history, to food, to games, to clothing to art, like there’s so much that you could learn there that you’re just choosing to ignore. You know, the brief mention of history that they did say, when they talked about this game. You know, there is a very rich, communal history of Chinese immigrant populations and Jewish immigrant populations working together and living in community in New York and lower Manhattan where I live. And that’s a beautiful history. There is a story to be told there and they chose not to tell that one either.

Amanda

Yeah, exactly. I don’t they were just like, This is cute. We’re gonna make money pretty much they were saying the copy was something like this is Mahjong for the stylish masses or so it was so offensive.

Alex

And that’s the thing is that when you use words like that, you’re implying that the people that you would expect to be playing this game are not stylish. Yeah, that they that their aesthetics are bad or like not cool. Or like, again with a kanji company, like if she says, Oh, it’s you know, it’s healthier, like, the implication to that word is that it’s better. Yeah. So you’re saying that you are making a dish that has been prepared for probably 1000s of years. You’re making it better now. Like, come on. Let’s not let’s not do that. Yeah. Not only saying that, but then also making money off of it. And like, are you giving that money back to the community anyway? Because I highly doubt it.

Amanda

And once I’m like, no one in your life, said something to you about that.

I told you the story about a collection of clothing we did at Nasty Gal that was 100%. I mean, like, you’re not even up for debate appropriated from traditional Chinese clothing, right? And I said in the meeting when I saw the designs, this is like bad, like, we can’t do this. And someone else was like, oh, no, it’s okay. It’s inspired by it was a line from atelier. I don’t know if it’s blenz Yaga. I don’t know who it was. But they the designer, this huge design house had totally engaged in some like egregious cultural appropriation, I got to track down who it was. And so we were copying it, basically. But the argument there, which you and I both know, is not not a good argument. Not a valid argument was Yeah, but like Balenciaga did it. So it’s okay. And you’re like, wait, no, it’s still wrong. And we had multiple meetings where, like, I would say, half of the buying team was like, we can’t do this, this is wrong. The other half was like, Why are you so uptight? It’s fashion, you know. And so it’s not like someone was getting in our face, like trying to fight with us about it. But it was like, what we were saying as being invalidated as well. And then, when the product came in, they did a marketing photo shoot in Chinatown. In LA, and I’m still, you know, it’s like disappeared from the internet, unfortunately. But it’s so the whole thing was so egregious that sometimes I’m like, Did that really happen? I’ve had the fact that other friends who work there and be like, do you remember that? And they’re like, yeah, no, that really happened. I remember that meeting.

Alex

I think that that like really illuminates the importance of responsibility when it comes to big business to famous people, to anyone who has a lot of influence and a really large audience. So you have a responsibility not to be doing this because you normalize that behavior. When a company a fast fashion company sees big time labels doing this, they think they can do it too. It’s fine, which obviously the logic is not there, like this person behaved badly. So therefore I can to like, what that doesn’t make any sense. And then also, we have to think about like, there have been so many examples now of very, very famous very well respected fashion designers being horrendously racist racists. Like that is not new, just because they are super successful, super wealthy people wear them all over the world does not mean that they are not engaging in highly unethical practices, like you know, look up Dolce and Gabbana. Look up. John Galliano like there are so many examples of the Chanel was a Nazi sympathizer Hugo Boss literally made Nazi uniforms like this is not new, this has been happening. And just because they’re participating in it does not mean that you have the green light to do that as well.

Amanda

All of these designers you’ve just listed have been involved in so many things even recently. And we just shut that down.

Alex

Yeah, I mean, they, they’re normalizing the behavior. They’re making it seem like it’s okay to do that. Or even if it’s not okay. A that nothing is really going to happen to you, you know, like, Oh, that sucks, but they’re so rich and successful. So whatever.

Amanda

Not exactly, exactly, there’s no repercussions. And that really, um, you know, when we talk about clothing, even just it’s like there is where the trickle down effect of these bad behaviors is the most apparent because, you know, like, Okay, so at some designer who I can’t remember, did this incredibly culturally appropriated line, and then we copied it a Nasty Gal. Well, that is not where the chain ends, right? Because then it’s like, she ends doing it, and then it’s appearing on Amazon. And then it’s like every other cheap, fast fashion line out there. It’s doing it and it normalizes it, because the more people see it, the more it just becomes like, oh, what this is like

Alex

life? Well, and like how could it be wrong? If everyone’s doing right? It’s just dangerous. It’s a very dangerous mindset. Yeah, there was a lot of bad behavior that a lot of people are partaking in does not make it okay.

Amanda

I mean, yeah, that’s the thing like you can, I think it’s so interesting that you’ll hear people say, like, well, if everybody’s doing it, then it must be okay. You say it out loud. Just now. It sounds so ridiculous. Yeah, that sounds real.

Alex

It’s, it’s, yeah, it’s scary. And so yeah, you know, when it comes to taking credit for things, this type of appropriation specifically is very harmful, because it erases history, it ignores history, specifically, the history of marginalized people, there really should be specific names attached to traditions with specific stories, the most respectful way to refer to something is to be as specific as possible. And again, we have the resources to, you know, be specific, you know, research is really easy to do you, it really doesn’t take a long time to kind of figure it out and give credit where it’s due. Yeah. So like, just like, as a broad example, you know, say that you were to eat a Japanese dish. If you were to call that dish Hokkaido style. That would be like, the most respectful way of referring to it, you’re talking about a specific part of Japan that has its own culture, you know, you’re referring to the history where it originated from you’re giving context to that dish. It’s slightly less respectful, but still fine to call it a Japanese dish, you know, then you start to go down to where it’s not so respectful to just call it Asian. That is, doesn’t really mean anything. Yeah. And then you would be misappropriating if you called it Korean. Yeah. So like, you know, there’s, there’s, there’s levels to it. And it might not always be possible to know where it came from. But like, there’s a very good chance that if you just like really quickly looked it up, you could probably figure it out.

Amanda

I mean, we all have a computer in our pocket now. Yeah. And I think

Alex

that if you are someone who is selling this product, if you are a restaurant that has the dish on the menu, like you really have a responsibility to do this research and figure it out.

Amanda

Yes, I mean, that is like the bare minimum. I can’t believe we have to spell that out. But I also know we have to spell that out.

Alex

Yeah. Okay. So, then we get into the very last type of cultural appropriation and this type hinges on an imbalance of power. So, this, again, specifically in Western culture, white culture, straight culture says culture cannot be appropriated because it is the dominant powerful culture in our society. This especially are applies around conversations about hairstyle and clothing. A lot of the beauty norms, they’re enforced in Western society, in workplaces, schools, and other public spaces are centered around white Eurocentric beauty standards. So there are certain types of hair or makeup that are deemed like, quote unquote, clean or appropriate, and, you know, the type of clothing you are wearing, it’s regarded very differently depending on your race and your body type. So I see a lot of times that people like to talk about, it’s very similar to reverse racism. Oh, people like to be like, well, you know, black people are appropriating white culture by wearing wigs. Which like, Oh, God, I see it. Unfortunately, way too off.

Amanda

Oh, I hate that so much. Like if I just read my hair stand on end.

Alex

Yeah. Or like, you know, they say like, black people straighten their hair, and that’s white culture appropriation.

Amanda

No, that was

Alex

absolutely. And so that’s the thing is that you can’t appropriate the dominant culture. That’s actually assimilation, which is a whole separate thing. You know, assimilation is often necessary for safety. It’s necessary to advance in a professional environment it’s necessary to have access to opportunity, like, there are plenty of environments in the states where you are told you can’t get in, you can’t succeed, you won’t be respected if you don’t look a certain way. And that certain way is typically based on Eurocentric white beauty standards. Absolutely. So yeah, the power imbalance there is like very clear. And people will like to say you brought this up before that they’re like just admiring or complimenting the other culture, learning from its cultural approach appreciation. Yeah. So for these people, I just have to ask, if you’re participating in a genuine celebration of another culture, are you supporting the people that are actually existing in that culture? So if you love to wear your hair in braids, and you’re like, Oh, I wear cornrows? Because I love black hair. Okay, so are you actively campaigning for hair based equity in schools? Are you campaigning for hair based equity in workplaces for barriers to housing, like, you should be fighting to live in a society in which every single member is genuinely open to wearing their hair any way they want, without any cultural or social repercussions? Because that’s not the world we exist in now. Right? There is a power imbalance there when a celebrity wears their hair in a way that is deemed a black hairstyle and the celebrity is not black. They’re often celebrated for it. They’re often you know, it’s glamorized, and that same exact hairstyle on black people is oftentimes punished. And that’s where the power imbalance comes in. And that’s why people get upset when they see someone like Kylie Jenner wearing cornrows. And people are like, This looks awesome. You’re so cool, whatever, whatever. Because that exact same day that Kylie Jenner is posting that cornrow photo, there was a little girl who’s being pulled out of the classroom and sent home because her hair is not deemed like appropriate for school.

Amanda

Yeah, yeah, that’s exactly true. And I think I mean, I, the hair one comes up so often, this is one where celebrities love to be acting like clouds, I can’t believe it. Like, I see the hair a lot. You know, a different example has nothing to do with clothing or beauty standards is something I was dealing with a few months ago where someone who works for my company requested that we start carrying these like, I mean, you’ve seen them at bat gift shops. They’re like these really cheap plastic and I use this in quotes zen gardens that are like for your desk. Have you seen these before? Yeah, right. It’s it’s such a it’s I remember them from college, when I was working in urban outfitters in college, we sold them and yeah, like a product it does, right. And it’s just basically like a, like a little plastic box with some sand and rocks. I don’t know, it’s, it’s future garbage for one, right. But also, you know, I said, No, I don’t feel good about that. I think that’s cultural appropriation. And the person said, What are you talking about? It’s cultural appreciation. And they said, Okay, let’s like, take a walk back here. First off, if you don’t trust me on this, please go Google Zen Buddhism, cultural appropriation, because there is a lot. I mean, Zen Buddhists are like, please stop turning our religion into products that you sell, like these cheap plastic desktop gardens. But also just to think of like, get out your phone and say, like, what is a Zen Garden? Well, here, you can literally go into Google right now type in Zen Garden, the first thing that comes up is, you know, Zen Gardens sit by the 13th centuries and gardens were deeply are deeply part of Japanese living culture. The sole purpose of these gardens was to offer the monks a place to meditate, Buddha’s teaching, the purpose of building and upholding the garden is to encourage meditation. Okay. Okay, so we see that these spaces have really important spiritual significance. How does that relate to your weird little $9 plastic desktop kit? If you’re using it to legitimately meditate? Fine, I guess I’m okay with it. But I bet you’re not. So what are you really culturally appreciating here? Right. You know, I

Alex

mean, that’s the thing is that like, appreciation, genuine appreciation takes time. It takes effort, it takes education. And most of the people that claim cultural appreciation are not taking any of the steps to do those things. No.

Amanda

And I will tell you, the company that makes these kids makes all kinds of just like, novelties. They’re not It’s not like this is a company run by Zen Buddhists. This is not affiliated with any Zen Buddhist organization like that of benefits. This is someone who’s like, I make cheap shit and then I sell it for a little bit more and I sell a ton of it, and it goes sent to landfill a few months after someone buys it like this is not. You’re not appreciating anything unless perhaps you like appreciating throwing stuff in the trash soon.

Alex

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that what you just said is such an important part in this, I think that a lot of appropriation can be avoided by just really looking at like, who is making the product? Where is the product coming from? What is this company that you’re purchasing something from. So like, you know, if you love Mexican textiles, if you love indigenous jewelry, like you should be buying that from companies that are owned and operated by people from those cultures that are making those products, you should not be buying them from Urban Outfitters or whatever. Right? Exactly selling cars. Yeah. And so like a, you’re being appreciative, because you’re actually buying the genuine product, you’re buying real native american jewelry, when you’re buying it from someone that is from that culture. And then this also prevents you from wearing something that you shouldn’t be wearing, because they’re probably not going to sell you a ceremonial item. If they’re in that, yeah, if you’re, if they’re in that community, they’re not going to sell you a head dress to wear to Coachella, that’s not going to be available to you to purchase from an indigenous person, most likely, and that like helps you avoid those pitfalls, like you’re not going to be put in that situation in the first place, because you’re not going to be able to buy it.

Amanda

And plus, once again, like if your intention here is cultural appreciation is honoring the source of these things you you’re about to appreciate. Don’t you want to support the communities that created these items? I mean, that that’s if you’re really appreciating? You know, that yes. And once again, these are things that like, maybe you hear it, and at first you’re like, rude, you’re being uptight, you are so sensitive about things, it doesn’t even involve you, like, Fine, take, take a moment with us. And just think that through like, yes, if this is something that’s really important to you that you really love, that you have this emotional attachment to then use your money to get it from the right source.

Alex

Yeah, absolutely. And like, you know, This especially applies when it comes to businesses and public figures, like they have the resources to genuinely make a difference in these communities that they’re, quote, unquote, appreciating. So do it. Yeah, if you appreciate them so much, and you love their makeup, their hair, their like textiles, their jewelry, then like, show it, prove it, go out and you know, campaign for public policy, go out and donate your money, go out and work with community organizations on the ground and actually show how much you appreciate this culture? Absolutely. Yeah, just don’t you just don’t see that? No, you don’t.

Amanda

It’s not true appreciation?

Alex

No, not at all. And so I think this kind of brings us into one more point that I wanted to make just about how like individual behavior and group behavior is very different. Based on like your audience size and your access to resources. When we’re talking about cultural appropriation, I feel like celebrities and other public figures, I kind of think of them as groups, just because there’s multiple people involved. They’re like, Oh, yeah, yeah, Lucky. Yeah. Kylie Jenner is not an individual. Yes, she is a human individual. But when she is publicizing, posting on social media, you know, it’s a group of people involved there, there is PR, there’s management, there’s stylists, there are so many people in this group. So like, generally, it’s typically less harmful for an individual person to participate in appropriation, because you’re not spreading misinformation to a large audience. You’re not influencing others to follow in your footsteps. And you’re also not normalizing appropriation. And this is why businesses and celebrities get so much flak when they do this is because again, they have a responsibility to uphold, they have an audience, people are watching them, people emulate them, people see what they’re doing and think that that’s, you know, they should be doing that, too. So the more of an influence you have in society, I think the more of a responsibility you have to do the right thing. And at the same time, you’re also much more likely to have the resources to like, do your research that your sources figure out what you’re actually representing here. I think you just have way less excuses when you’re in the public eye like that. Like, you know, I don’t I highly doubt any major celebrities coming up with their own Halloween costume.

Amanda

That’s the thing, right? I assume that but then you know that we’re gonna see a few people dressed as something terrible. To share because every year and I know that they didn’t make that costume themselves, multiple people probably were involved in procuring it, you know, assembling it, putting it on their bodies for, you know, I just don’t get it. And yet it happens time and time again. And I think like, you might feel as an individual as sometimes you are like, I, I just don’t even have the bandwidth to learn and know all the things I need to know to be a good person. But like, these are people who have people on their teams who just should be doing stuff like that.

Alex

Yeah, I mean, that’s there are a lot of people working together there to create these looks or you know, to create, like, if someone launches a business like that is not something that happens overnight. There is there’s so many moving parts or so many people involved with that, like, you have a responsibility when you are trying to reach an audience. And I think that not only do we see this in like traditional, you know, actresses, musicians, but more often I’m now seeing this a lot in the food space, especially in people who work as like food content creators or like recipe creators. There was this whole thing recently about spa water. I don’t know if you saw that. Yes, yeah. So this whole spa water debacle has been happening. I just recently saw a video that the women who quote unquote, created spa water were

Amanda

agua fresca. Okay, yeah.

Alex

So they like very clearly, we’re just like ripping something that has existed in Mexican culture forever. And just like putting a new name on it, and basically white washing it. And you know, it became a joke. People were like, This is stupid. And they were making fun of them. And like, in this suitcase, I’m like, you know, I don’t blame people for making fun of them. And I just recently saw a video in which the woman was, I think she was on some sort of talk show. But basically, she was like, Well, what am I supposed to, like, do a bunch of research on like, every single recipe and every thing I post? Yes, my answer

Amanda

is yes. There the answer, there is very clear, good. Yeah, I

Alex

want to have a public platform. If you want an audience, if you want 1000s of people to watch your videos, like share your content, buy your cookbook or whatever, you have a responsibility to do the work, it’s work. And if you don’t want to do that work, then like maybe being in the spotlight is not for you.

Amanda

I mean, these businesses these new like the mahjong ladies, the kanji people, I mean, there’s tons of other, there’s so much of this in the food area. I am always like, didn’t you probably get like, investment money to start this business? You’re telling that? No, you’re telling me that no one questioned this, and that you didn’t have to do any due diligence around this. In order to get that money. It’s shocking to me, I, I guess what I’m saying as I’m talking out loud is they must not they must have had so much financial privilege, generational wealth, whatever around them or in their own lives, that they didn’t have to do that work, because I just cannot understand otherwise, how these things happened? I mean, because trust me, yes, I have had some trouble shutting down sound some really bad ideas in my career. But I also have successfully shut down some other really bad ideas in my career, I cannot emphasize enough that I have been some meetings where I’ve heard some really, really bad ideas. Yeah. That are really messed up. And we’re definitely cultural appropriation would be like an understatement for some of these things. And so I like I will tell you, I worked somewhere where the creative director said to me, I’d really like you to hire someone black for the buying team, so that we can never be accused of cultural appropriation again, oh, my God. I mean, that’s a real thing that happened, everyone. And yet, like, still, we catch so many of these things before they come to fruition. But then suddenly, we’ve got these, the Masane ladies, I still can’t I’m still reeling that they’re still in business. I want to know who bought those.

Alex

It’s upsetting, but it’s also not surprising. I think that, again, a lot of the people who feel extreme guilt around this conversation, like double down on it, they’re probably willing to support a business like this because they feel like they’re under attack somehow that it’s like personal.

Amanda

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and I think that’s a good call out because I frequently see I mean, we know this is what’s happening in our culture right now, right, that people are like doubling down on this as sort of like a culture war, you know,

Alex

Really what it comes down to for all of this is to just shut up and listen to people. Yeah, just yet. So just just listen, just listen, be respectful. Actually take a moment to think about where someone else is coming from what their perspective is. And if people say, you know, I, this makes me uncomfortable, I am offended by this, I’m hurt by this. Like, actually listen to them. Think about why they might be saying what they’re saying. Think about what their perspective is. And if you don’t understand, ask questions. You know, like, what, why is this hurtful to you? What can I do to fix it? Like, this is not something that is like, Oh, well, I already did it. Too late now. Like you can make steps to address it. And I think that this is a so many other things that, you know, we’re dealing with day to day, it’s just so important to just take a step back and listen to what other people are saying.

Amanda

Right, right. We’ve all made mistakes in our lives. We all don’t know everything. But take that moment to listen and to learn and be open. I guess. I think that’s what so many, so many people shut down when this conversation starts. And yeah, you don’t need to it it. It’s gonna benefit you and the world as a whole should just listen, nobody’s coming for you. I mean, clearly, these Mahjong ladies are still going strong, right? And they’re like, they’re engaging in something super egregious, right? Like, your life will be okay.

Alex

Yeah, and I mean, I think that this could be said for a lot of different circumstances. But like, I just like to think of it as you have to put yourself through short term discomfort for long term growth. You know, it might suck in the moment, it might feel really shitty, you might be really embarrassed, you might feel really shameful, guilty, it doesn’t feel good to know that you’ve hurt someone else. But you have to really think about that and like accept it in order to move on from it. You know, and then you’ll be better in the long run, you will be less likely of having to go through that feeling again, because you’ll be less likely if making the same mistake. And you’ll come out of it a better person, like, Isn’t it worth it? Isn’t it worth it to feel like shit for a couple of days, maybe even a couple of weeks of feeling really embarrassed in order to move past that and be better? Absolutely. Like, the payoff is huge there. It feels totally worth it to me. It

Amanda

does. It does. And, you know, the reality is that for most of us, like some if, if you, I don’t know, are culturally appropriating at this point with like your Halloween costume or some fabric that you bought, or whatever. The stakes are low for you as an individual, and you shouldn’t Yeah, I wouldn’t cling to it or feel this incredible, like paralyzing sense of shame. Like, I mean, listen, I get messages from people who were like just tearing themselves apart, because I shopped at Target last week, like we can’t, we can’t do that. But what we can do, as as a larger mass of people, is just do better on the individual level, and influence the people around us to do the same. And that’s when we how we make these larger, systemic cultural changes, where we make it that no group of white women would ever decide that they were going to start a massage on company, right? That’s the world I mean, to me, too. And that’s how we get there. And that’s how all of us play a role in this because none of us are Hailey Bieber. None of us are Kendall Jenner, like, we don’t have millions of people waiting to hear what we are going to do next. But what we can do is work with everyone else around us to change what the norm is, to make it at a point where no one would think that any of these things are okay.

Alex

Yeah, and just having these conversations like talking about this with your friends with your family, or even being one of those people that leaves a comment online, that like, you know, a musician that you really like poke does something that you find harmful, like, by speaking up and being one of the people that comments on it. Like, it makes a really big difference to people if they see a post and they see two comments, disagreeing and 2000 comments just

Amanda

absolutely. And if they know you, it’s even bigger.

Alex

Absolutely. And like that will change people’s minds that will change people’s opinions if they see something and they see all of these people saying, Hey, I think this is really problematic. I think this is really harmful. That’s going to cause who knows how many people to sit down and below like, Hmm, maybe it is a lot of people are saying it. So like, be part of that be, you know, use your voice. And this is something that you say a lot with clotheshorse about like, holding people accountable holding brands accountable. Like, you may feel like you’re just one person. But we’re all one person and a very large group of people, it does make a difference. It really

Amanda

does. It does, I know that sometimes it feels, you’re just like a grain of sand and this huge desert. But you really, you’re part of a lot of grains of sand that make that desert. And, you know, we, when we work together, like our power is so I mean, I was caught one time in it dust devil. And that must have been like, you know, I don’t know, 1000s of grains of sand blowing around me into my nose, and eyes and mouths. And you know, what very meaningful moment for me?

Alex

I mean, you know, if we think about it, like we just lived through and are continuing to live in a global pandemic, that is something that started very small. Yeah, it started with what one or two people and it affected literally every single person on the entire planet still

Amanda

is? Yeah, absolutely. Like,

Alex

we are going to see the effects of this for who knows how long, probably decades, like, you know, and you can think the same with an idea. And maybe instead of a pandemic, we could be a positive idea. You can spread that positive idea, but it’s not. Yeah, you talk to two people, if only one of those people talks to five people, if only one of those people talks to another two people, like the next thing, you know, like your entire community could be changed. It’s totally

Amanda

true. I mean, like, even you know, from a capitalism perspective, like, this is how companies look at word of mouth advertising, basically, like, if they give you a good as experienced as a customer, you’re gonna go tell two people, then they’re each going to tell two people, and this is like a thing. That is an integral part of marketing that I want us to use for the force of good, you know, and I think that is how it works. Also, you know, something I had mentioned to you, because this is another thing that whenever I try to have these conversations at work, it’s always like, Well, my husband is, is Japanese. And he said, This is okay. Or I, my friend, my friend is Native American. And she said, This doesn’t offend her. We can’t do that. We cannot say like, I had a conversation with one person in a situation that may not have even felt equal. And they agreed with way.

Alex

Yeah, I mean, that’s definitely a very valid point is that person may have agreed with you in the moment because they felt some sort of pressure to agree. They might not be telling you the truth, they could be lying to you because they, you know, it’s it. The thing is, is it’s not anyone’s individual responsibility to like, give people lessons or education is on racism. And frankly, there are a lot of people are called people of color who are sick of it. Yeah, I’ve like, really, I do not blame any black person, any Native American person for being like, I am a tired of educating white people, I am sick of being people’s personal teacher and doing all this labor and making nothing off of it. So like, you know, there are probably a lot of circumstances in which we say, hey, is this like offensive or funny, and people will literally just lie to your face, because the alternative is free labor. And they’re not interested in doing Yeah,

Amanda

or ticket ticket and even more basic level. Sometimes people just agree with you because they don’t want to hurt your feelings, or they just want to have a nice dinner or, you know, they’re tired and they just don’t want to get into it. Like, you know, people will be like, No, that outfit looks fine, but be like, I’ve seen better to themselves, you know, like you cannot ask one person in your life, to be the spokesperson for an entire group of people.

Alex

Never in any circumstance. And at the end of the day to like there are terrible people in every community. Real life. Yeah, yeah, there are there are assholes everywhere assholes look like anything. So just because one person is cool with something awful doesn’t mean that the thing isn’t awful. That’s terrible logic to you. I know. Like there are plenty of people out there who find grossly offensive shit. Super funny. Yeah. That is not a good representation for

Amanda

Absolutely. You know, I, every time I do a post on Instagram about small businesses, one person has to message me or comment about how well I know is small businesses where the owner is terrible. Yeah. What do you when we say? Yeah, I’m not surprised. They’re terrible people everywhere. Absolutely.

Alex

Yeah, there are awful people in every facet of society. So we can’t you know, again, these cultures like no culture is a monolith. No one person is a spokesperson or representative for any community. Everyone’s gonna have their own opinion. It’s just looking at one I, like a lot of people are saying and just thinking about what’s respectful, you know, like, if you if you were to participate in something that like one person, not from the community says is offensive. I wouldn’t blame me for being like, is this valid? But if a whole bunch of people are being like, hey, you should rethink this like, listen, listen, do your research, figure it out, there is plenty of information out there.

Amanda

Unfortunately, doing the right thing takes effort. And there’s no, there’s no way to cheat your way to doing things in the most ethical way. Period. If someone is selling you a shortcut to doing things, right, it’s probably not valid.

Alex

Yeah, that’s so true. It is it takes so much work to do things, right is to do things in the least harmful way to do things in a way that supports the people around you. It’s difficult, like it takes time, it takes effort, it takes energy. And, again, if you don’t want to do that, if you’re lazy, if you don’t care, then say that

Amanda

literally, literally say that, I want you to yell yourself, say it out loud.

Alex

Yeah, if you’re like, I am really lazy, and I don’t feel like looking anything up. So I’m just gonna call it what I want to call it and fuck anyone who’s upset by that, then like, okay, you can do that. You’re just literally saying that you have no respect. You do not care. All you care about is yourself. And people are going to call you out for that. Yeah. You know,

Amanda

I always wonder about people who really, or at least say that out loud, right? A long time ago. I mean, this was when I was in college, I went to a party and there was a guy there in blackface white guy blackface. I mean, right? Like, I, I can’t believe that I witnessed this in real life. But I know what happens. And horrible. And I said to him, don’t you feel like your costumes can affect up. And he was like, why I don’t care what anybody thinks. I literally don’t care about anyone’s feelings, or how they feel about this, because this is what I wanted to do. And I was like, Wow. All right. Okay.

Alex

I mean, the conversation. Yep. And that’s, like, I don’t have

Amanda

a comeback for that. But if you’re gonna live in that, good luck.

Alex

Yeah. And that’s the thing. There are plenty people out there who are openly racist, openly bigoted. And if you are not one of those people, if you do not want to be like clumped in with those people, if you don’t want to be perceived as one of those people, then think about what you’re doing. Think about how you’re walking through the worlds. Yeah,

Amanda

I think so. I mean, I really doubt that you feel that you don’t care what anybody else thinks. So once again, like, say it out loud, say like, I don’t care about other people, or I don’t care about other people’s feelings, or whatever it is. See how that feels for you. Unfortunately, when we talk about cultural appropriation, that’s what you’re really talking about.

Alex

Yeah. And I think it’s also interesting that, like, the stakes there, for most forms of appropriation, the benefits are so like, silly and insignificant, you know, like, when it comes to, you know, wearing your hair a certain way, wearing a certain outfit, like, what do you get from that? Like, the benefit is that you look cool, or you feel cute. So like, to you it’s more important to temporarily look cute than to hurt a bunch of people’s feelings.

Amanda

Yeah, like, what’s the trade there? Yeah. Like,

Alex

why is that so important? Like that just seems so. And again, a lot of times, it’s more nefarious, like people are like, I’m trying to make a boatload of money or become famous from that. And like, that’s a whole, you know, that’s a much darker intention. But like, most of the time that people are doing this, it’s like, I want to seem cool, or come off a certain way or be perceived as like cute or sexy or whatever. In exchange for like, what is it worth it? Yeah, probably not. Is it worth it? Yeah. Is it worth it to like have a quote unquote, funny costume and a couple people laugh? And that’s worth offending, like a ton of people to you.

Amanda

I mean, I want to know who those people are, who laughed because I just don’t think you want to be friends with them. But

Alex

yeah, at this point, I think a lot of people do laugh because they’re uncomfortable. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like I find, especially as a woman that I often laugh when I’m uncomfortable. I think a lot of that is just like a defense mechanism. It’s not always again, it’s not always safe to speak out. It’s not always safe to express how upset you are. So I think a lot of times like you just do that nervous laugh because you’re like, This is so weird, and I don’t know what to do.

Amanda

I catch myself doing that all the time.

Alex

It’s a hard habit to unlearn, and I don’t blame anyone for not stepping up in the moment, like, I’ve been there many times where I’ve seen something that I didn’t find right and wasn’t able to speak up in the moment, and I look back on it. And I’m like, I really wish I had said something. But oftentimes, like, it can be very paralyzing. You know, especially depending on your surroundings, who you’re with, like what your dynamic is, with the people that surround you. It’s not always like, you don’t always have the opportunity to say something. It’s true.

Amanda

And I think that’s another really important reason why it’s important to have as many people on board with calling out cultural appropriation, because absolute because there is safety in numbers, unfortunately. I mean, that is that is the truth, there are definitely situations, it’s interesting, like, I will call these things out at work and feel pretty okay about it. I mean, it took me years to be able to do that. Definitely early in my career, when we were absolutely appropriating tons of Native American prints like every single day, except for that one year, we were really into shrubbery dying, that was really offensive to back then I didn’t feel like I could say anything, but I felt really like, like, This is wrong. And now I have to write an order for this. And, you know, over time, I became more competent, and kids call that out. But there are many situations in my personal life where I’ve seen things like this and I have felt very fearful of, it’s not even like you’re confronting someone, but you know, that that’s how that’s gonna go. And I, if it were, if there were more people around you who shared those feelings and would speak out about them, you wouldn’t be afraid to speak out about them. And that’s the world I want us to live in, where we don’t even have to speak out about this, because we’ve already shifted the society, like shifted society as a whole into a direction, where this just like, rarely happens anymore. And so calling someone out on it is like, just another day thing. You know, it’s like telling someone to pick up their dog poop. It’s like, of course, right? We all know that.

Alex

You know. And I think that this is also another important time to maybe like, check your privilege and think about, like, what you’re trying to think of how to say this, it’s important to think about how your privilege affects the way that you’re able to speak up versus other people. So you know, if there is an instance where something is happening, and someone speaks up, whether that be in person or online, if you have privilege in you are able to amplify their message or support them in some way, you should use that, you know, if you are a straight white man, and someone speaks up and says, This makes me uncomfortable, like you have, you don’t really get, you’re not really risking much to support the true, you’re putting very little on the line, like your job is probably very safe and secure, you probably have you know, financial safety nets, you might, you’re more likely to have a support system, like you can speak out with a lot less fear than a lot of marginalized people might be able to. So you should use that. Like, it’s a really great opportunity for you to step up and be like, Hey, I support this message. I want to amplify it. What can I do to help?

Amanda

Absolutely, yeah, let’s, let’s use our privilege for good. And we all all lately have privileged? Yeah, I think that’s totally something I’ve been trying to call out more and more, because I think people hear privilege. And they think, you know, because all of us, all of us have different obstacles that we face different adversity. So we just assumed that privilege is something that other people have and not us. But that’s not true.

Alex

We all there are so many layers to privilege. Yeah, you know, if you if you don’t have straight privilege, you might have able bodied privilege, like, you know, if you don’t have white privilege, you may have class privilege, like, there are so many layers to this that like you do have some and the more of it that you have, the safer you are the bigger safety net, you have to speak out.

Amanda

Absolutely. And we, we need to use that. Like acknowledge your privilege, so you can be aware of it and feel empowered to speak out about things. And

Alex

totally there’s so murder power in that. Yeah, there’s so much power in that privilege that can be used for good.

Amanda

Exactly, exactly. Agreed. Well, Alex, thanks as always for being literally the most well prepared guest. I feel like I just get to sit back and have a really interesting conversation. Which I love everybody you have no idea the amount of notes Alex brings to the table and I just I’m so grateful for it.

Alex

Oh, it’s so funny. Yeah, this is not gonna lie. It’s three full pages.

Amanda

Okay. And I like small, small font. You know?

Alex

Listen, the nerdy journalism major in me just cannot show up without pages of No, I

Amanda

love it. You have no idea when I opened there. notes I was just delighted is an understatement. So thank you so much Alex for putting quarters into this and sharing all of your great knowledge and ideas everyone. Do you have any final thoughts for anyone or anything you are like working on you want everybody to know about or anything?

Alex

Um, I am sure I’m gonna think of something like tomorrow and I’m going to be like CIT, I forgot. But as of right now, I think I’ve covered everything. I really appreciate you having me. It’s always such a pleasure to be on clotheshorse. I know that I have a lot of like friends and internet Mutual’s that are part of the closed source community. So Hello, friends. It’s always so great to hear from people when they’re they, you know, have listened to an episode I was on and really enjoyed it. So thank you. For anyone who’s ever sent me like a nice message for the episodes I’ve been on previously. I really appreciate it. And I always have so much fun being on here with you, even when we’re talking about serious topics.

Amanda

I mean, we’re always kind of talking about serious topics. But I will tell you every time you’re on an episode, I mean, just so many amazing messages from people who are just so grateful to learn from you. So, anytime, thank you, when you show up with like four pages of notes. I’m ready.

Alex

You know, I’ll be you know, I’ll be back.

Amanda

Thank you so much, Alex.

Alex

Thank you!

Thanks again to Alex for being the most thoughtful and prepared guests ever. I am so grateful for her time and expertise. I hope that she will be back again soon! You can find Alex’s business, St. Evens on Instagram as @wear_st.evens and check out her online shop at wearstevens.com I’ll share all of that in the show notes.

The show notes for today’s episode–as always–will be full of other articles and resources for learning more about cultural appropriation and seeing some of the stories we discussed in today’s episode. Also, thanks to the wayback machine, I was able to track down a link to that heinous Nasty Gal collection I mentioned in our conversation. The link will take you to the home page, where you can click into the collection called “Do East” If the link is a little glitchy, stay patient and refresh.

Before we close things out today, I also want to remind you of the upcoming opportunities for all of you small businesses to have a moment on this platform via audio essays and Instagram Live panel discussions. You’ll find all the essential info in the show notes and on instagram.

All right…lastly–but most importantly–I just want to remind you that conversations about cultural appropriation are not meant to shame you, to make you feel bad about that costume you wore 15 years ago or for coveting a Pendleton blanket for years…it’s to help us all be better more thoughtful humans in this world. To build a better future where no one has to feel like a novelty concept or a mere fraction of a person. By talking about these things, we normalize being good, being thoughtful, having difficult conversations, educating ourselves and those around us…and these are the things that really do lead to major social change.