Episode 116: Buying New Underwear Instead of Doing Laundry: Meet Rita (part II)

Welcome to Clotheshorse, the podcast that likes to quote Robert Reich.

I’m your host Amanda, and this is episode 116! Today’s main event will be the second half of my conversation with Rita, aka Panty Witch. We’ll be talking about two of the major obstacles that limit access to slow fashion: size and cost. We’ll also be talking about instagram, AGAIN. And most importantly, we’ll talk about how much the community means to us.

Before that, I’m going to share another audio essay inspired by “The Great Resignation.” In December alone, more than 4 million Americans quit their jobs. And it’s been *almost* functioning as a general strike, giving workers power over their employers, and a real seat at the negotiating table for the first time in decades. I’m going to quote my hero (okay, one of my heroes), Berkeley professor Robert Reich (also the Secretary of Labor for the Clinton administration and one of the few reasons I ever open Twitter). He told The Atlantic last October, “[Employees] don’t want to return to backbreaking or boring, low-wage … jobs. Workers are burned out. They’re fed up. They’re fried. In the wake of so much hardship, and illness and death during the past year, they’re not going to take it anymore.”

We’re quitting our jobs. Trying new things. Trying to start our own businesses or go back to school or just reset what it means to work, to survive, to thrive. In fact, maybe we’re saying “I no longer want to survive, I want to thrive.” So today’s audio essay, from Veronica, is a great example of how and why some of us are making that big (and scary) decision to leave our jobs. Let’s give it a listen!

My name is Veronica and I am calling in from Delaware. I’m 35 years old and I quit my job at Lowe’s November 2021.

In those months, I would work at Lowe’s from 5-2. I would then come home and work in the yard or my home. There was no choice but to work on our home since there was still a lot to be done. It was abandoned for 3 years before I bought it in 2018. It still had not felt like a home and I felt that pressure. I wanted my son to have something to look forward to when he came home. in the yard which still needs a lot of work, until my son came home from school. I would cook dinner, clean, and work on creating order in our house, something that was completely opposite of my upbringing as a child. I was working on establishing routine and order in our new home. I didn’t like eating out so making the simplest home cooked meals was very important to me. To add to that, making sure I was on top of everything with my son like homework and teaching him things I really wanted. It all became very overwhelming.

At the same time I knew that lifestyle was doing more damage than good. Some days I would be so stressed I couldn’t sleep or so worried I would forget to be present and enjoy the little things. I had become too serious and stopped making time for things I enjoyed like art, laughing, and dancing. I didn’t want to continue living like that. Especially because I had come a long way on my self-love Journey in November 2020. For a whole year I dedicated my mental focus on Practicing new healthy habits like practicing patience, delaying my reactions, and controlling my emotions. Everything I needed to do to break old unhealthy habits I had picked up and learned from early childhood trauma. So after working so hard for a year creating a new life and new habits I didn’t want to see this hard work go to waste. I refused to go backwards. I decided it was now or never. So I made a sacrifice and quit my job.

Since quitting my mental health has improved significantly. I had more time to fix up my home. I worked on furbished old furniture, painted the wall, finished floors, put up trim, updated lights and our house finally felt like a home. It was a great feeling and alongside me was my son, helping in the yard, cutting down trees, and grouting tile. Whatever he could help with he did. I am so grateful for these moments. I found more peace and I became more compassionate, more patient, everything I was working on in order to create a healthy loving relationship with him. I was no longer too exhausted or too stressed. I looked forward to seeing what new hobby he would take up next. This is a kid who would draw on rocks at 4 years old and sell them to our neighbors. Right now he is into fixing up his dirtbike, he loves to work out which is perfect because we motivate each other and that’s important, he loves comedy, and he loves shoes. He likes to refurbish shoes. It’s cute. He buys them off the FB market and resells them. I love it. I feel like having more peace has allowed me to have more joy in the small things.

Being an inspiration to my son is my biggest goal which is why it was important for me to get inspired and find my next plan and to not get lost in sorrow or hopelessness. I would remind myself God gives us everything we need. I remember asking myself: What skills do I have that I can offer and it is just funny how I forgot about my dreams for a moment. Since I was in high school I have always wanted my own Salon. I thought one day I would wait.. I have my cosmetology license oh I have this house. It’s way too big for me we have extra space so why not. I started getting to work and slowly transforming a part of my home into my dream spa. I will cut hair, upd’s, waxing and facial services. My favorites. After a lot of work and preparation . I will be open in 3 weeks, God willing. I still have lots of work to do but I am excited. I feel fortunate and blessed. I am glad I took that risk and made a decision that has catapulted my life into a better direction.

My advice I can offer anyone is to make the most of what you have now. If you can do that, imagine what you can do when you have more. And don’t let anything get in the way of your dreams. Some people may never understand the method to your madness and that is okay. As long as you know what you are doing, go for it. Have patience, there’s going to be new obstacles but don’t give up. I’ve been dreaming about this since I was 18 and I knew I would somehow find my way. After years of doing what I love I will now be able to do it full time.. I look forward to hearing more stories of people who are willing to take risks in order to live a more mindful, healthier life, and support things that really matter. The things that are going to make this world a better place because we absolutely can. Thank you for listening to my story here from Delaware the East Coast.

Thank you so much Veronica for your thoughtful and inspiring essay. I’m so excited for you, your son, and your spa!!! You have to keep all of us up-to-date on what happens next. Sending you much love from Texas to Delaware. All of us are rooting for you!

Lots of stuff happened in 2020, so I’ll forgive you for not noticing this big news: Amazon surpassed Walmart to become the biggest apparel and footwear retailer in the United States, with sales of more than $41 billion. That was a 15% increase over the previous year–when there wasn’t a global pandemic–and a lot of analysts credit the pandemic and its surge of online shopping for this growth. I was unable to find its apparel sales for 2021 because we’ve just finished the fiscal year a few days ago…Yes, fun fact: fiscal years run from February through January, and that is the calendar preferred by the retail industry, and well, most industries. So yeah, we don’t know Amazon’s 2021 apparel sales, but we can only assume that they were a decent chunk of its North American sales of $364.4 billion. And despite all of the growing anti-Amazon sentiment, despite all of the terrible stories of what a terrible place Amazon is for employees–we’ll come back to that–sales were still 17% higher than the previous year, higher than the average growth for ecommerce (online shopping).

But let’s go back to the 2020 number. $41 billion, about 25% higher than Walmart’s apparel and footwear sales that year. Walmart had been the biggest apparel retailer in the United States for most of this century, so this was some pretty big news in the retail world, and definitely filled the fast fashion retailers with fear. TBH, they had been feeling fearful for years, worrying that Amazon would steal away access to the big brands, that brands like Nike and Adidas would someday sell exclusively to Amazon. That didn’t happen (and so far it doesn’t look like it will happen), but to be fair, Amazon did buy Shopbop in 2006 (guaranteeing access to premium brands and customers with a higher clothing budget) and Zappos in 2009 (guaranteeing access to a big chunk of the footwear industry). Go take a browse for clothing on Amazon and you will encounter a wide array of brands, from nationally recognized ones like Hue and Hanes, and random ones that are just super fast/cheap fashion. Knockoffs abound. I see tons of copies of dresses from Spell, Lisa Says Gah, that Hill House nap dress. Even Shein products can be purchased on Amazon! I’m going to be honest with you: I’ve even purchased Lolita shoes, blouses, and pantaloons on Amazon in the past (about 5 years ago). I don’t know if they offer them now, but why wouldn’t they?

So, Amazon sold $41 billion worth of apparel and footwear to US customers in 2020. How does that compare to global performance for the big fashion retailers that same year?

Inditex aka Zara: $24.8 billion

H&M: $22.48 billion

Fast Retailing (Uniqlo): $18.91 billion

Those were the biggest players in 2020 and Amazon beat them all.

As of 2020, 11-12% of all apparel and footwear bought in the United States were purchased from Amazon…and 34-35% of apparel bought online came from…you guessed it…Amazon!

Now, I have tons of problems with Amazon being in the fashion game! One, Amazon drives down prices, so clothes become even cheaper, customers get even more confused about the true value of clothing, more humans are exploited to make those clothes as cheaply possible, and in general, it becomes even easier for people to overconsume and think of their clothes as disposable. That’s another episode right there, but it wouldn’t be much different from any of the other fast fashion retailers that we’ve discussed here.

No, I want to talk about Amazon as an employer and how it is singlehandedly changing what it means to be a worker both in the United States and abroad.

A few days ago, Dustin was in a meeting—we both work from home right now–and I could hear him because I was working with the door open. He had just listened to Dani and I talk about quilts at a fever pitch, so it’s only fair that I have to hear him talk about UX stuff. And in the Zoom meeting (about something I totally don’t understand), I heard over and over again “well, what does Amazon do?” or “they wanted something like Amazon does.” Amazon, Amazon, Amazon.

And it’s no wonder, because while Walmart is still the biggest retailer in the world, Amazon is gaining on them. If I haven’t mentioned this before: Walmart has a major impact on the prices you pay for food, along with tons of other things. And Amazon has a major impact on every aspect of everything you buy, even if a brand or retailer is trying to be the OPPOSITE of Amazon!

The reality is this: I have been sitting in meetings for years where we simultaneously fretted about Amazon and planned to emulate Amazon. Need further proof of Amazon’s influence on how we shop and how retailers sell to us? Look no further than free shipping and returns. Now a standard practice, it was a concept created by the rise of Amazon Prime. Oh a subscription service for products? See also Amazon. Two day shipping? Yep, see also, Amazon.

We’ve seen Amazon change everything about shopping. But it’s also changing what it means to be both an employer and an employee. Walmart is still the biggest private employer in the United States, but Amazon is second. And globally, Amazon employs 1.5 million people! Even before the pandemic, Amazon was losing about 3% of its hourly associates (meaning warehouse and delivery workers) each week. This meant that its workforce would turnover 150% each year. Meaning if you started working for Amazon on January 1, by mid August or so, you and everyone else who worked with you at the time you started would no longer work for Amazon. This turnover rate was so shocking to every employment expert out there because it was double the rate of the retail and logistics industries. Amazon executives were worrying about running out of workers.

No one sticks around for a lot of reasons:

Work in the warehouse is grueling, with high productivity targets, low pay, and even simple things like bathroom breaks are discouraged. In the show notes, I’m going to share a great New York Times series from last year about a huge Amazon hub in New York City.

Hourly workers are also managed by an app and a series of algorithms, rather than an actual HR department. And so, people with otherwise good work records are fired by the algorithm for one bad day at work. Never mind that maybe they had a cold or bad cramps or just too much on their mind that day. Meanwhile, delivery drivers have such an unrealistic workload, that they can’t even stop driving to use a restroom. Queue lots of stories of peeing in bottles and pooping in plastic bags.

The company doesn’t mind this high turnover rate because ultimately working in the warehouse or delivering for Amazon is grueling, taking a physical toll on workers. And workers are injured in Amazon warehouses at twice the national average for warehouse work. These workers are so severely injured that on average, they require 5 weeks of time off work to recover. Amazon needs a steady flow of new healthy bodies, workers who haven’t been worn down by working for them. And that is so dystopic and frightening to consider. These workers are literally just bodies.

And corporate life isn’t much better. Managers are required to eliminate (meaning: fire) 6% of their team each year. Meeting this quota is part of their overall performance. Even if everyone on the team is great, a super hard worker, very talented…6% of them still have to go at the end of the year. Imagine working with that knowledge hanging over your head?! There is also a secret and byzantine performance review process. It’s all super toxic!

Raises are measly for workers who’ve been there for a while, while new hires from outside the company make the real money. And to be fair, that’s been the strategy at all of the retailers who have employed me through my career. Coworkers would leave and instantly get a $10,000-20,000 raise just for going somewhere else. One of Amazon’s guiding principles is “frugality,” so of course they aren’t paying anyone well if they can avoid iit.

And let’s not forget this: Amazon has engaged in all kinds of shady practices to prevent workers from unionizing. As Robert Reich tweeted: “So let me get this straight: Jeff Bezos can afford to widen a port to fit his yacht, but Amazon can’t afford to let workers unionize.”

So here’s why I’m concerned about Amazon’s impact on what it means to be worker: retailers (and really every other company out there) look to be as Amazon as possible. Like “we are the Amazon of baking cakes” or “this is the Amazon of wedding dresses.” The Amazon of gyms. The Amazon of selling houses. The Amazon of restaurants. Plenty of CEOs, presidents, executives, and managers out there–believe it or not–look to Jeff Bezos as a role model. And when they hear that one of Amazon’s principles is “Strive to be Earth’s Best Employer,” well then, they are going to copy Amazon’s tactics, from employees managed by algorithm to union busting to mandatory firings to literally viewing people as a disposable (and endlessly renewable) resource.

I mentioned that Walmart is still the biggest private employer in the US. And guess what? Walmart HAS set the standard for underpaying retail workers, keeping everyone just under full time hours so they can’t get benefits, and using the bare minimum of payroll to keep its stores running. Everyone has been influenced by Walmarts ability to keep the cost of its workforce as low as possible. Is this a good time to remind you that Walmart literally includes information about applying for public assistance and Medicaid in its new hire orientation handouts? Walmart has changed retail work. Amazon will change all of the other work.

And there’s one more thing: Based on my research, Amazon grew its workforce by about 200,000 workers in 2021 alone. It’s been on an upward trajectory for years. As of July 2021, 1 out of every 153 American workers was an Amazon employee. That’s only going to increase. Because Amazon isn’t just warehouse workers, delivery drivers, corporate workers…it’s also Amazon Web Services (AWS) which is a data cloud service that is a massive part of its business. It employs at least 45,000 tech workers for that part of the business. Its advertising business is growing, too. Tons of white collar workers and creative types joining that arm of the business. So many different types of workers, at all education and experience levels work for Amazon and will work for Amazon in the future. We all have a stake in this. When one employer has the monopoly (or at least owns a majority) of the jobs available in a town, state, region, or nation…well, that means workers lose all leverage when it comes to salary, benefits, and working conditions. Once again, Amazon affects us all.

Amazon seems like a fierce dragon to slay…but it’s not impossible. I never thought Facebook would pay the price for all of its shady behavior, but this week, Facebook lost $200 billion of its value in one afternoon as it reported for the first time ever that it was LOSING users.

I think we can do the same with Amazon. And that’s a hard one for a lot of us. I didn’t really use Amazon very often before the pandemic, but then I became dependent on it for cat food and random household things. First because I was too frightened to go shopping on my own, and then later because we lived in a rural area. This is something that I am committed to ending for myself this year. And I understand that is a privilege. I live in a city. I have a car. I have the time and mobility to go pick up things for myself (or ask Dustin to get them). But even cutting back can have a major impact if all of us are doing it at once. So buying one less impulse purchase, buying one more thing locally..these can add up. I don’t want to work in a dystopian hellscape future. Neither do you. And we don’t want that for anyone. So let’s make a change…together! Here’s one last tweet from Robert Reich: “If you think 2021 was the year workers got fed up and flexed their collective muscle, just wait until you see what working people will accomplish in 2022.”

Speaking of working in a dystopian hellscape, it’s time to resume my conversation with Rita, aka Panty Witch. We are going to start our conversation mentioning that Victoria’s Secret uses prison labor to make underwear. As of right now, that is not true (according to Victoria’s Secret) but in the 90s, it was using a contractor that did use prison labor. According to the Washington Post, “In 1995, the National Institute of Justice released a study that confirmed garment manufacturer Third Generation contracted sewing work in the early ’90s to a prison through a deal with South Carolina Correctional Industries. Victoria’s Secret, along with other companies, wound up buying the apparel through Third Generation — that were actually made by inmates at the Leath Correctional Facility in Greenwood.”

Nonetheless, Victoria’s Secret has been linked to both forced labor of Uyghur Muslims in China AND child labor in Burkina Faso. I urge you to google all of this for more info. There are also numerous articles out there exploring the exploitative, miserable conditions in some of the factories being used to manufacture Victoria’s Secrets products. I’m going to share a link to 2007 Huff Post article called “Victoria’s Secret, Slave Labor And So-Called “Free Trade”.” I highly recommend giving this a read. I’m going to read this excerpt:

The Victoria’s Secret workers toil 14 to 15 hours a day, from 7:00 a.m. to 9:00 or 10:00 p.m., seven days a week, receiving on average one day off every three or four months. All overtime is mandatory, and workers are routinely at the factory 98 to 105 hours a week while toiling 89 to 96 hours. Treatment is very rough, as managers and supervisors scream at the foreign guest workers to move faster to complete their high production goals.

Workers who fall behind on their production goals, or who make even a minor error, can be slapped and beaten. Despite being forced to work five or more overtime hours a day, the workers are routinely shortchanged on their legal overtime pay, being cheated of up to $18.48 each week in wages due them. While this might not seem like a great deal of money, to these poor workers it is the equivalent of losing three regular days’ wages each week.

Workers are allowed just 3.3 minutes to sew each $14 Victoria’s Secret women’s bikini, for which they are paid four cents. The workers’ wages amount to less than 3/10ths of one percent of the $14 retail price of the Victoria’s Secret bikini.

Yeah, I’m not a fan of Victoria’s Secret for many reasons. This is just one of them.

I wanted to share that background info before talking to Rita about her panties, pricing, and so much more. Let’s jump back in!

Amanda

You know, you touched on something there that I think is really important for us to talk about, which was the price. Your panties are not cheap. They’re not a Hanes 5 pack for $10.

Rita

No

Amanda

I am assuming I have not seen this on your Instagram account, but I see it on everybody else’s. I’m assuming you get people who are like, Why are these so expensive?

Rita

I can get underwear from Victoria’s Secret for $5 a pair? Why are your’s so expensive? And I’m like, have a great time at the mall? Like have a fun time.

Amanda

Hope you enjoy your underwear that were probably made by prison inmates.

Rita

Oh, yeah, that’s and I say that to my family. I’ve been saying that forever been like, it’s probably made by slaves. And they’re like, don’t talk about it. And I’m like, well…

Amanda

We SHOULD talk about it.

Rita

I do get that question a lot. They are really expensive, you know, I wouldn’t be able to afford my own underwear, if like, I wouldn’t be buying panties, which underwear, if I didn’t get them, I totally get it, I’m really working hard to do different price points, which can be difficult, because it just means I have to do less labor. So I try to make like pairs that are like not Patchwork, solid, you know, a little, little bit more boring, just different. And so I’m able to get those down to a lower price point. And that’s great. I don’t do sliding scale anymore. Because I just haven’t been able to figure out how to do it online. And I also had this feeling that when I was doing sliding scale, and people had to directly message me to make a sale, having that personal interaction has, like people pay more like, you know, when you have to look your waiter in the eye, and they are looking at your thing, like, you know, we pay more, and I just didn’t feel like that was gonna happen. I also didn’t know how to set up a good system to do sliding scale that worked with my lack of technique, like having a website is very new to me. Maybe at some point, I’ll be able to get back to that. But so, you know, having a sliding scale really helped. But now I don’t have that. So I’m just trying to kind of like, you know, just really figure out like, what is just the dollar amount that like my time, like, my time is covered materials are covered. I probably don’t really always get $20 an hour because I’m working all the time. I love it. But it’s like I am working all the time. Yeah, it’s, it’s hard. And that’s the thing that you know, I don’t want to be like gatekeeping but I also don’t want to like like use my body and like use it up and get to a point where I can’t use it anymore. And be like, Oh, well at least people get it like I want to value my time.

Amanda

Right right. I mean no, this makes sense to me. And I would also say like First off the audacity to compare What you’re making with Victoria’s Secret underwear is so appalling to me because you are Yeah, value on top of everything. They’re like they’re special. It’s an art piece. It is something that you wear and you feel magical that day.

Rita

I hope so. Yeah. I don’t know what that feeling is like because I have it every day

Amanda

Hashtag blessed. I think, you know, underwear, bras. These kinds of things have always been really interesting to me because we tend to I think undervalue them, like they’re pretty undervalued

Rita

We undervalue clothes in general. Some people I have heard that some people will buy underwear and to not do laundry, they will throw them out. Like that is sinful Amanda.

Amanda

Listen, I know, I know. I’ve known a few people like that in my life. And I’m still scandalized that I ever got to know them

Rita

That’s a character red flag that I will there is no relationship . Like it’s done. No.

Amanda

Yeah. I am always surprised, you know, like, many of us are like, Oh, underwear should be like, $1. Right. Or they should be under $10. Certainly. And just as a person who like works in the industry, like, yes, how, how, right, like, I guess underwear used to me, right? Yeah, make the actual sewing booth.

Rita

And, like, I think it’s funny when people are like, Oh, it seems so basic. And like that’s such a basic thing. I would love for people. Even if you’re not into sewing, borrow your grandma’s sewing machine, try to sew something really simple. And you know, like, give it some practice. Give it 20 years of practice. It’s still hard. Yeah, it’s hard. And you’re using your body as a tool and everyone can sell you know, it’s like, everyone can get good at it and do it. But it is hard to make things that look like I would not be able to make that like $2 Hanes shirt like it is. I just Can I don’t have all the machinery for it? I haven’t done that a billion times. I, you know, I just can’t do it. And so we just undervalue this labor that is its end and materials. We’re just undervaluing this whole system for profit, which seems so backwards. It doesn’t. Yeah, it doesn’t make sense to me.

Amanda

Absolutely. But here’s my perspective on underwear. I’ve only had to buy it in a few different roles. So I’m not like an expert on it by any means. But much like swimwear, which is another very specialized sewing fabric.

Rita

Swimwear is like the devil’s work. I will not do it. It’s the worst, especially if things have two layers, like their lining and that fabric. It is like the slippery Oh, yeah, it’s the worst. It is just the worst. Yeah, it’s the worst, right?

Amanda

But then there’s like, like that company. Boohoo will sell like $1.99 bikini or like, you know, the swimsuit prices at say H&M have always been absurdly low, Forever 21, things like that.

Rita

It’s because they’re not making money off of them. It’s like that thing that Amazon did when they were really wanting to buy what is that shoe company? Oh yeah. Zappos, yes, Zappos and they were like, Zappos was like, nah. And they were like, Okay, we’re gonna do this thing where we like, No, we’re gonna make a lot of money. And so we’re just gonna undercut the shit out of everything. And we’re gonna drive you guys out of business and like,

Amanda

Yeah, disgusting. Yeah, disgusting. True, though. Like basically, swimwear and underwear are kind of a loss leader.

Rita

The company knows that, like, everyone needs them. And you get in the door, and then you’re like, Oh, I would also love a cute sweater with slave underwear.

Amanda

Exactly. But even knowing that a lot of companies aren’t making a great margin off of this stuff. Although I will say the one retailer I worked for that is a big fast fashion brand was absolutely making profit off of their underwear prices. They were still relatively inexpensive not like a pack of five for $10 kind of cheap, but pretty close.

Rita

I want to know how many times they like last in the wash without getting like a gaping hole

Amanda

They were terrible. I bought it on sale. And it was like breathing too hard. Made them rip. But which is is bad. Right? So that was a waste of money, yes, but also waste all around. Like there’s no way that underwear you’re buying for that little bit of price are going to be both quality and not made with slave labor because sewing underwear, there are multiple pieces. There are trims, even the most basic pair.

Rita

Yeah. And I mean, I will also say I do kind of the most basic type of underwear making like I’ve never messed around with like any crazy laces, like, you know, I’m, I’m really doing some simple stuff, but just like that’s, that’s just, that’s how I found like the best way to use my materials and do it. And I like it. Other people seem to like it, but like it gets, you know, it gets so much crazier than just I’m just doing like, the most basic underwear making.

Amanda

Yeah, no, and it’s work. How long do you think it takes you to make one pair of underwear?

Rita

Oh, it’s so depends. It just really depends like one It depends. Like how much is my carpal tunnel acting up today? Like how much am I a scatterbrain you know what it’s like what am I am I you doing all scraps might not scraps are really hard to like organize no way you have also like, if fabric sets for a lot, especially like certain kinds of nets, they roll really bad. And so you’d like you have to deal with this kind of like rolling fabric and it’s just not it’s not as easy as just like getting your bolt of fabric and just cutting things out of yardage. I do Thrift, you know, I’m able to thrift like quite a bit of yardage. There’s some really cool like recycled craft stores in Washington State. And Portland. And so and just thrifting thrifting around here, like on the peninsula’s and good. But Seattle. Yeah. It’s sweet, good. They have the day as goodwill. They’re no like the biggest goodwill in the world. Yeah, it’s it’s like right by downtown. If you’re Seattle local, it’s on Dearborn. And it’s like, you walk into this one thing, and it’s just, you know, like the goodwill like, like, grocery store size thing. And then there’s two doorways and each doorway leads to an equally big warehouse room. Like it’s overwhelming, but it’s the coolest thing. It’s it’s really cool. Yeah, if you’re ever in Seattle, like it’s, it’s almost just like interesting to go see, they also have like, I think they have like some headquarters there and stuff. Also hate Goodwill. But like, you know, there’s the lesser of evils in a way.

Amanda

yeah. I mean, yeah, I think that’s a conversation I have with people sometimes where they’re like, well, now I can’t ever thrift because the only thrift store near me is the Goodwill and I’m like, Whoa, it’s still better than going to Walmart.

It’s all relative. I can’t believe you know, I I lived in Portland for most of my adult life. And I never knew that Seattle had this massive Goodwill.

Rita

Oh, yeah. It’s I mean, it’s not like it’s not like Disneyland Goodwill, but like, you know like one of the like, full Goodwill’s is just like clothing. And then the other one is like house where books, linens, furniture. And then this other one they do like, be there sometimes they’ll just have furniture in it or I’ve been there when they did like the glitter sale or during the holidays, they put all their like holiday stuff in there. It’s massive. Amanda. Wow, it’s so cool. I like want to go just yeah, that I did. Yeah, it’s, it’s really cool. And then people are always like, are you talking about the bins, it’s not the bins, we all have the bins which, oh, the bins are scary. It’s like an aggression. I’ve never I met in thrifting

Amanda

I can’t cope with it. My anxiety is too bad. I’m so non competitive that I immediately am like, I need to leave.

Rita

I used to intern at Seattle Art Museum in high school. And so I also did running start. So I like, we’d go downtown early. And like, we’d go all the way. It’s like in the like industrial districts, I go down there. And I’m like, 16, and just, you know, whatever. And I’d like thrift because I’m like, oh my god, I can get like a bag of clothes for like $5 Maybe I need to fix something or fabric or you know, like it was super fun. But like, I wouldn’t be able to do it now like people are so because it’s either people that like need it because they can’t afford anything else or they’re reselling it or it was just an interesting group of people. And then I’d like walk back through the International, the industrial district, back to downtown Seattle, which is just, I’m like God, 16 year old really like not good decision making skills. Doing that, but I just wanted to thrift and then go do my internship. But I get it. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Good thing. Nothing ever happened. But wow.

Amanda

Yeah, I think of all kinds of very foolish, dangerous things I did. When I was younger. I, I’m lucky to be alive for sure. Yeah. So you know what I told you, as we were preparing for this interview that like one of my big missions this year is conversations and action toward making slow fashion more accessible to everyone. Right? We’ve already talked about the pricing. You know, I think, I mean, we all have to get used to things being more expensive.

Rita

I think we just need to value the things we have more and whether that be the Target underwear you have or the underwear you spent $100 on like it just value that object and like realize that it has a life. And I think when you just start valuing even your cheaper objects, when you go to replace those, or you know, find better options or whatever, like, you know, it wouldn’t, I guess maybe maybe I would buy my underwear cuz I’m thinking about like, how through this journey I really like have, like, right now I’m wearing like one of Dani’s like sweatshirts, you know, like, I spend, I don’t buy a lot of clothes, but I had to, like buy a new wardrobe for this pandemic, because my body’s changed. And all these clothes that I’ve had forever don’t fit me anymore. And so I had to find an option. And like, thrifting wasn’t really a thing, and I can try on things. So I’m like, Okay, well, I’m not going to buy from fast fashion. You know, and, yeah, I, I didn’t want to do that. And so I bought all these like, expensive things that I just value a lot. And to me, they’re like art, and I’m able to also like, use them to, like, take pictures in to like, kind of create this community. And that’s super fun to do. I also don’t know, because I have not grown up upper class, but like middle class, and I’ve never really had, like, you know, my parents didn’t let us know that they had a lot of debt. And that always like I always had a roof over my head and food and fabric to sew with. So it wasn’t like I was worried about that kind of stuff. And I’m still, for the most part now. Not today. So I have the privilege of being able to spend that extra money on those things. And like, I, I don’t know, because at some point, I’m like, Man, I’m paying myself and paying other artists like this is awesome. But then there’s this flip side of like, there are people that messaged me that are like, I just want to tell you, I really love your artwork, I can’t afford it, but like, I really love it. I’m like, I just almost want to give them free underwear because I’m just like, Ah, this sucks. Like, I don’t want to be over here being like, I’m just trying to make money but like I also need to pay my mortgage. And I have dreams of doing other things in my life, you know, and I want to have money for that. So it’s just like really big internal conflict and I like don’t really have a full let me know if you find the answer to this because I would love to hear it.

Amanda

I’m in the same boat. I feel the same way. You know, I will get snarky comments from people sometimes like why do you have ads on the podcast? And I’m like, because I’d like cuz I like to

Rita

Eat food> Yeah, and like have a roof and like yeah, there’s this thing called capitalism and we all have to make money sadly I hate it and I want to destroy it but also like Yeah, what was the girl to do?

Amanda

Right? Like, I can’t decide to opt out of it because then I don’t get to see a doctor or eat food or have a place to live. Yeah, you know? Yeah. Do you think that’s unfair? Sure. But like, this is where we are. And so I don’t have a good answer to the pricing, right? Because, yeah, I feel as though all people should be paid for their work. And, you know, probably, if you can’t afford to buy panties from you, or, you know, from buying things from other slow fashion makers, it’s probably because you’re not being paid enough at your job.

Rita

Yeah, it’s like one of those things where it’s like, I totally get this sucks. And there’s a way bigger problem. And I wish, like, I hate capitalism. Me and my partner are very, like, we have these dreams of like, just destroying these like systems in the world. I think it’s a really big collective dream, but a lot of us are feeling right now. I’ve just like companies, we want to see crash and burn and like, not necessarily individuals, but like, kind of, I won’t get I won’t get political. But you know, like, we just have these dreams of like, like, I don’t want to make money at some point, I would love to trade my and I have traded a lot, which has been like so much fun. I can only do so many trades. And unfortunately, not everything that people want to trade with me I have value for. And that’s a hard conversation sometimes to have with people. And, but it’s like, I, I want to trade underwear for, you know, my produce or for this or that. Or, you know, like I’ve traded for some pretty cool things. It’s my mom gets really annoyed about it. She’s like, you give yourself away. I’m like, This is so much fun. It’s like trading like things at school. Like you don’t get it later. Get it? Yeah. Yeah. But I get these really cool things in the mail. And she’s like, Whoa, where’d you get that? And I’m like,

Amanda

Yeah, I mean, like, everybody needs to get paid. I think that yeah, no, unfortunately, there are so many things at play when it comes to the price and accessibility of slip fashion. And a lot of it is it’s it’s it’s a whole complicated thing, right? It’s people being underpaid. It’s us no longer understanding the true value of items.

Underwear should be like, twice as expensive as they were when I was a teenager based on how rent is twice as expensive as when I was a teenager. Right? And they’re not they’re cheaper, almost cheaper, right? I mean, like something I that still blows my mind. Every time we say on the show is that clothes are cheaper now than they were in the 90s Underwear is a part of that. And that’s because of all of these shortcuts of all of this exploitation.

Rita

Yeah, people almost like an industrial revolution, in a way. You know, like we’ve done this thing over the last 50 years, we’re like, we can make stuff for so cheap. And that’s just what people will think it’s worth

Amanda

Well, and like, we think going back to our least favorite type of person, the kind of person who buys brand new underwear. They’d rather do that than do laundry like, that is how we view so many things in our life: underwear, clothing, shoes, throw pillows, none of it Amen.

Rita

You know, even the even the thing that you get at Costco that holds your spinach, there should be a use for that. Like in my dream world, actually, anything that was produced if you have an off production, you find a way for that to be used either yourself or you find a company like I’ve let me know people if you know of a way to industrially recycle fabric scraps, I have given some away to people that fill stuff, I have like one of those garden leaf bags in my studio that’s like full of it. Now, I have never, like I probably have thrown away a couple of scraps just like you know, throughout time, but like I, I have a trash can in my sewing room. But it’s like not for those things. You know, like all the clippings that come off a machine, all the scraps as I’m cutting, it’s too if it’s too small, I then like put it in this bag, or the you know, this, this paper bag. And I really want to find a way for those to become something and not go in the landfill because it just like breaks my heart to think of them in this like, in a trash bag out somewhere in the world. Like sitting there, you know? Yeah, yeah. Cuz like everything we’ve used is sitting out there.

Amanda

Imagine if Amazon felt that way.

Rita

What a blessed day.

Amanda

And I think you know, unfortunately, you know, like, a message or a comment I receive a lot on Instagram is like, well, it’s not my fault that we’re in this situation. And no, I’ll never have the same impact that Amazon does on the world. So why should I do anything at all? Unfortunately, you know what I like we’ve been operating on the honor system with Amazon and every retailer out there for way too long.

Rita

They just believe the lies, which is no fault on them. But just like, you were just being lied to left and right to make money like that is the not the point. But like, they don’t give up. And then I’m over here spending a year being like, Man, I don’t like my 100% Cotton tags. And I really want a really dope like woven. Polyester one, polyester is bad, right? I can’t do that. I spent a year debating this, because I didn’t like the quality of my tags. They’d like unravel, which I’m just a perfectionist. I just wanted that quality. I finally switched. But it took like all of these, like taught like, like, I would talk to you about this. And they’re like, Rita, just like you do so much. Just like just do just order the tags like, and I’m like, no, like, it’s even. It’s recycled polyester. But I’m just like, it’s like, I almost feel like dirty as I’m like, selling them on their beautiful tags. I’ve just always, always wanted like a really cool woven tag as a Thrifter. I always would like look for really cool tags. And so, but I felt so bad about that. But then there’s companies like burning things that they don’t want to sell. Yeah,

Amanda

exactly, exactly. And I just, I think like, we for a long time been like, Oh, we’re just individuals, what can we do? Surely, they will figure it out, or the government will figure it out. And you know what? None of that is happening. It’s time for us to make the changes ourselves and demand them well.

Rita

And my thing too, is like, okay, so if that’s going to happen, and it happens, like, we also all are going to have to collectively change, like, the way that we live life is going to change if that happens. And so I feel like it’s just like, either, we’re gonna do it, and nothing’s gonna happen, and we’re all gonna die. Because we’re all on the boat. This is stuff, man, I get really dark stuff. Or it’s like, we fix it. And then we all have to change the way that we live. You know, and it’s changed but like, we’ve almost been like practicing and it’s not going to be such a like, culture shock, you know, because for some people, they just like, my family burns plastic sometimes in their fire pit,

Amanda

not me. Oh, my neighbors are doing that too. And it was Yeah.

Rita

And it’s they have a trash can outside next to their fire pit. I bought an argument and like, driven away and left on I’m that yeah, like, I get mad about it. And they may know, they’re like, don’t throw plastic in the fire around Rita. Because he just even reaches me in like, I love my family. I Like I love them. So so much. And I like almost I’m like grateful that they don’t have this ego anxiety because it like it consumes a lot of my energy and makes me crazy. But also it’s like infuriating to like, see that? And so for them, it’s like, the lifestyle I live with seem really crazy to them. But like, it’s got to go even further. Like, you know, we’re gonna be living a really different life if things get better totally.

Amanda

And I think unfortunately, when I see people saying like, nothing I do is going to have an impact as an individual in comparison to Amazon. I think what people are really saying without knowing it is that they just don’t want to make the changes that are we’re all going to have to make like, I yeah, I saw someone squabbling on Reddit about how it was pointless to push people to use public transportation when Jeff Bezos is going to the moon. And I’m like, here’s the deal. We’re all going to have to start taking public transportation. Yeah, like, we’re not going to all be able to have cars. Yeah, like, just get used to it now. And it will be less painful later. And the same goes for buying less stuff and not buying underwear just to throw them out and the end of the test. And I think sometimes just saying like, well, I don’t have an impact is an easy way to give yourself the freedom to not change. And we all have to change. Like we’re all gonna have to be involved. No matter what, even if next week, Amazon is like, we’re gonna change everything. And this is how we’re pressing, we’re closing

Rita

down small businesses is the future like, we’re gonna do this, like your life is gonna change. We’re gonna liquidate all of our inventory and all of our warehouses and everything and donate that money to small businesses. And we’re gonna like housing and food for like the entire global system and like free Medicare, or like medical care, like forever, like, because they could do that with their money.

Amanda

I mean, I just got excited thinking about them. But even if that happened, I was like, tearing up. Yeah, but even if that happened, that’s not the end of the story. It’s like, keep up the work. I mean, I think no, it nah Yes, there are systems that need to be broken down that are larger, but we also as humans, have to change our relationship with everything we do in our lives. You know, like I’m for Yeah, we’re all gonna have to be a little less selfish.

Rita

I’m kind of excited, and that’s what I kind of feel like when I was little. I like glean from the, the depression, I’m sure there was like, really rough. I know there was really rough part of it. But it seemed like there was kind of like this collective like caring for the things and the people around us in a way that like, it doesn’t always happen as humans.

Amanda

Absolutely. I had hoped to see this during the pandemic.

Rita

And we saw a glimpse of it. I was like, Oh, is this is this fully the thing? It’s not the thing? And I’m like, oh, gosh, is the thing going to be like, a civil war or something like that? But like,

Amanda

I don’t even want to think about it. This is the kind of Yeah, I know. Yeah, tonight, I definitely get into,

Rita

I’m up at night at the same time just tossing and turning. And then I’m like, I’ll just look at my phone to distract my mind and

Amanda

say, like, I feel a lot of optimism right now. Because I do see how so many people who care have been mobilized to make changes in their own lives, to, you know, help others make changes and educate them. And I really do believe much as many people are starting small businesses, thanks to the pandemic. There also, are people out there, and a lot of them are the same people who are like things have got to change. Like, yeah, we have this pandemic that has really uncovered or at least made a lot more visible. All of the systemic injustice in this world, all of the shortcomings of our existing economy. And its services, everything like, I want to believe I remember back in 2021, so long ago, like maybe the pan that I feel like it’s 100 years ago, when it seemed like maybe the pandemic was going to be over like summer last summer. Yeah, yeah. It seems like because all of a sudden, people are going out to their vacation wardrobe.

Rita

We didn’t have to wear masks if we were fully vaccinated. I mean, we had a social event, but you know, it was like, the messaging was like, Guys, we’re almost done.

Amanda

Right? There was this part of me that felt a little sadness, not that I didn’t want the pandemic and Good lord. But I also felt like, I was seeing people acting as if nothing had ever happened. And for me, that period, and this whole pandemic has been this just life altering experience for me, where I will never be the same person I was started.

Rita

There’s before the pandemic, and there’s after the pandemic.

Amanda

Right and my hope is that, like, people who were not changed, when it seemed like, you know, gosh, that was a was a long time ago already, right? Last summer, where it was maybe going to be over. It was going back to normal. Yeah. Maybe the silver lining of this continuing on if there is one is that it’s giving more people the time to think about making changes themselves? I don’t know. I don’t know.

Rita

I think so. I mean, the, like my partner’s really into like the Reddit, like resignation, anti work stuff. And it’s just like, you know, it’s been going crazy. Like more and more, more and more people are finding things like that they can do from home and like, also all of the like, cryptocurrency and stock stuff and like that whole new frontier. We won’t talk about NF T’s in our household Stanford newts, frogs and toads, nothing else. And the like, you know, but it’s, there’s like all these new things that we’re realizing that we can do. And that’s really cool.

Amanda

It’s really exciting. Yeah, yeah. I feel I feel excited. I feel optimistic.

Rita

Yeah, I’m hopeful.

Amanda

I want to be. I don’t want to lose that. So when I think about, like, what makes low fashion inaccessible to a lot of people. I mean, there’s a whole list of reasons. But the two biggies I always see are the financial side of it, which we just talked about. And the other is the sizing, because we know that a lot of the brands out there on the landscape right now that are unfortunately, the larger face of sustainable and ethical fashion. Only make teeny tiny clothes.

Rita

Yeah. And then if they do make bigger clothes, they suck. Like they’re not graded, right? Like, there’s even a company that we both really, really like. And I have noticed that as a bigger person wearing that company there. They hold a little bit of work to do. We love them. And I try I’m really trying to like, I have old thing with ARQ You know about that. But it’s like, I love them, and they’re doing better than other things. And it’s really easy to get critical of people because it’s like, feels like not enough still, but like, you know, they’re better option than other things. And like, I’m glad, I’m glad they’re here. But I hope that in the future, they’re able to do better.

Amanda

Yeah, it seems like I mean, like, you know, just from my experience as a buyer. sizing is hard, right? I mean, we had Meredith on multiple times to talk.

Rita

They don’t teach plus size fashion in fashion school

Amanda

And so there aren’t a lot of people out there who have that skill set. It also costs money. To me, that’s no excuse.

Rita

Right? It’s like, you guys have the money. What are you guys doing with it?

Amanda

Exactly, exactly. Um, and I’m frustrated by that. They represent themselves as a brand that’s really about size inclusive, right.

Rita

And their size is horrible. And then it feels like their greenwashing. And I know that it’s better than nothing, because I have some other pieces literally wearing the majority of their pieces right now. Like, I love their sweat suits. That’s great. It’s like one of my only options, and that’s why I have it. But like, I wish it was better. Yeah, yeah. And I’m not even that fat. I’m like a small fat, you know, like, it’s like, okay, if I’m having problems with this…

Amanda

In general, I will just say that their grading is really weird to me. And I Yeah, that’s what yeah, I’ve never been able to find my size there.

Rita

Yeah. It’s like, I’m like, Oh, next time, I’ll order this size, and it will be perfect. And then I order it and I’m like, but I feel like I need to go back to the other size. But I know the other size doesn’t fit me and like where is that? Yeah, that image or like, you know, like, I have a bit of a belly and like a pants like, it just it looks? It’s like it could be better.

Amanda

I haven’t even tried their pants because I just think I can’t handle it psychologically.

Rita

I’m a pants girl.

Amanda

I’m a non pants girl. So you know, we have our own struggles, right? I know that you basically, you go up to five XL, right? And do you do customs for people who want larger sizes?

Rita

Now I don’t do customs. But that has been an idea of mine cuz I’m really trying to like, I can’t. I’m feeling like I’m done doing customs. I don’t know if that’s forever. But like right now it is not in my future planning. I got really burned out of it. It created this kind of like Wtress Rita. That like no one liked. I it was just like, you know, teeth grinding, sleeping, like, I love my job. But for some reason, it just felt really stressful to do customs. And so now I really want to do like ready to set because it just feels better. If I’m like, I have the thing, I sell it, I get the money, they get their thing. There’s not this like eight to 10 week. It just, it feels better. But I really try, you know, I want to make what the people want. I’ve never and I decided on 5x Because that’s, that’s the biggest I’ve ever gotten ordered from and like, I’ve maybe made like two pairs of, of 2x. And I’ve made like almost 700 pairs of underwear now. And so in I actually when I had a clear out drop recently, and I like post and I told people I’m like, This is me clearing out my studio. Nothing went above a 2x but it was just like random. Sometimes when I make customs I would make extra or mix different options for people or you know, like this is just this bin that’s sitting in my room and I had a few we were on camera, you’d see my son room is clutter core. And so like I want that bin to be empty, right? And so I like post the drop. And I and then I announced it on my instagram with a picture of models, two of which I would consider plus size for modeling. And I get this comment being like well you don’t care about the fats like an all the ones that you did that were in bigger set like two axes and acceptable and all the ones that you did that were 2x were like bland colors, which i i think this person was just mad because I don’t change like I don’t I’m not like oh, it’s a bigger size. I’ve got to make a different look. I it’s just what I you know, and they weren’t they were very colorful. This person was just mad. And they say take this as constructive criticism and do better. Hmm. And this was just after the whole panty fairy thing too. So like my nerves were ragged

Amanda

you know? I mean, we talked about this like a couple weeks ago. I suppose it’s hard to be a person on the internet right? Because really for like I guess what frustrates me as an outsider hearing that story is like once again, this was just some extra stuff you had lying around.

Rita

I felt like I communicate and I told people in my email and on the post and like if you don’t see your size reach out to me like let me know what you want because I’m making more underwear and like I will I will make that like I’ll do it I don’t you know like come back for more like I want to make people happy. And I responded and was like I’m so sorry to feel this way again, this was a clear out sale like I love like every like everybody like I want everyone to have like the thing that fits their body. And also my size chart. I just made it up and like My 2Xs some people’s like four or 5x. Yeah, I was looking at like, it depends on the brand. Yeah, but like my sizes run. I don’t know if that’s smaller, big, but like, you know, people are always like, Oh, I’ve always been the size. And now I’m the size and you know, whatever, I honestly should have just assigned colors to it and not done like the sizes because it trips people up. But she was just no, she said I was tone policing her and that I was making other fat bodies don’t have to be small physically or mentally totally agree with her. And that I obviously did not care about fat bodies. So I was like, I’m so sorry. Like, I’m also just another fat person out here two hands, like, I don’t know what else you want me to do. Like, I will be making more of those sizes. And then bless people’s hearts. They saw that and they were like, no need to be rude. Also, like, if you know this person, you know, they normally make a lot of sizes and like you can be patient like the rest of us. Which I feel bad. I understand that person’s anger. And like for the most part, I’m like, yeah, like, we all need to do better and like me included, but it just it feels like it’s really easy to get picked on when you’re like already, like people hold you to this higher standard they’d never hold like multi person companies, which is really confusing to me.

Amanda

I know. I have had so many conversations about this, because, you know, much like you everything I do is clotheshorse is like a one person job, right? It’s like, Yeah, I’m doing everything. And I’m trying so hard.

Rita

You’re lucky if someone helps you, you’re like, Wow, this is amazing.

Amanda

Right? No special. And, like, I try so hard to think about accessibility and the messaging and new ways of sharing information that are easier for other people to digest and know all the ways in which I can help people like I stopped making Instagram videos because it seemed unfair to not have good captions on them.

Rita

That’s a really hard one for me.

Amanda

It would take me six hours to caption the video. And I was like, I guess I don’t get to make videos anymore. Because I don’t want to do it wrong. And instagram captions are terrible. And that’s not fair to people. Who can’t hear what happened. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, I take that all really seriously. And it, I look at other like, for example, podcasts or content creators who are in playing in this space. And none of them are caring about I don’t care. And yeah, yeah.

Rita

I don’t think it’s like malicious that they’re like, whatever. But it’s just like, it’s hard, then to receive criticism for something that like, is oftentimes out of your control. And you’re like, it made me want to quit, like, I wouldn’t quit. But it just made me like, Well, fuck it, I guess I’ll just like not do this anymore. Because like, I’ll never I’ll never be able to do it good enough. And like, you know…

Amanda

That’s exactly I had that experience right before Christmas, where I was like, I’m just gonna quit. Like, I’m being held to the standard that I just like, as one person with very limited resources can’t achieve and I’m trying so hard to do better constantly to make that progress.

Rita

To me feels like the bar is just going to go too high. And you’ll never, you can never get up to it.

Amanda

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it’s just really self defeating. And I think the other thing is that like, often, and this is hard for me, because I don’t want to tone police people at all. And I want them to know, speak to me, like openly, but, but kindly but kindly. Exactly, exactly. Like, yeah, I’m a person. Yeah, you know, like, all of these people on the internet are people and I have felt that like, honestly, sometimes people who are having a bad day come to me as a means of sort of getting that out. I like

Rita

I like I have this, I had this drop and I’m like, you know, getting orders. And there’s this big like, oh, you get a high from it like to say there’s a high and I’m like having this high. And then I get that comment and there’s like my stomach sinks. I respond to it. Now I have a rule because of this. I’m not allowed to respond to anything like this for an hour. I just have to like, sit, I can call someone like phone a friend. You know, just like I don’t react. I don’t I can like look at things but I’m not gonna, like I do nothing. And it just, like, brought that down. And so I like whatever to my mom’s house and was like, I’m just gonna like distract myself normally. I like to pack orders as I’m getting them because I’m just that person. And she was like, I was just kind of like processing with her and she’s like, will you like show it to me and she read it. She was like, rebellious versus just having a horrible day. Like, they’re just something like not something’s wrong with them. Like, you know, they’re just having they’re having a rough day, like something their you know, partner broke up with them. They lost their job, their basement flooded, they learned they have to move in a couple months and don’t think they can afford to move to you know what I mean? Like, absolutely. Something’s going on. And unfortunately, they opened Instagram at that moment, and they found this to be enraging, and there was like, no, no pumping station. It was just Yeah. So ultimately, like, I hope that person’s day got better.

Amanda

I have to and I try to Yeah, I think it’s like, that’s the way we have to approach those messages. I also, you know, I saw an interesting conversation on Instagram recently how this turning into like an episode about Instagram, but Part Two from its if term of create creator and like, I think they’re like, like a video game content creator. Any kind of content creation is like, let me tell you, it’s really hard to even cover your expenses in it. So I am just like, so happy for anyone who actually can make a paying job out of it. But she said something like, I don’t think it’s fair that you blocked people from the conversation, or don’t respond to every comment. And she said something like, I’m gonna be really honest, Rita had never occurred to me once. She was like, Okay, this page belongs to me.

Rita

This is my, this is my space, right? You do not have to be here, you can go to someone else’s space, you can go create your own space. This is my space. And it’s not a space for anyone to be mean and bully. And like, we need to have better boundaries. Amanda, I think that, like, is social media so hard, because it’s like, you and me behind the screen. Unless it’s like, like, sometimes people are like, Oh my God, you actually answered my comment, like, wow. But it’s like, like, it’s, it’s me, and you and people feel like they like we owe them something by being here. And by them being here, neither of us have to be here. And ultimately, the person that comes into our space does not have to be here. And if they don’t like something, they can totally, like, kindly messaged me, or leave a kind response or, you know, comment, like, I’m always open to like, finding ways to do better. You know, because there’s always room for improvement, but like, to come in like that, like, I don’t know how you think people are gonna, like, respond and take you. They, my mom’s counselor, and she always, she’s always told us, like, for every one negative interaction you have with a person, this be your child, your spouse, your friend, you need, I think it’s like up to five positive interactions, to cancel that out. So think about when you get on that fight with your partner, like you’re really mad at Dustin, you know, you guys are just like on each other’s nerves. I’m sure it’s happened with the moving the whole mind and like this as when you kind of like, edge back into that. Like, it’s not like you can just go and like give him a kiss on the cheek and you’re like, oh, it’s all good. Again, you know, like, there’s some like emotional repair that has to happen. And this is not different, depending on if we’re online or not, like, you know, when you come at me yelling, my initial response is going to be defensive. And like, we’re not going to get anywhere from that, um, I wish that people would like think about just just think about things before they do them online. And I know, like, I felt this way when I had the whole copycat thing of like, wow, I don’t feel like I really like thought about my actions and how they affect other people. Mm hmm. But like, we need like an online like how to be online and be kind to other people and like, like a little course that we all watch, you know, just like a 10 minute video.

Amanda

Yeah, yeah. That’d be great. I actually really love that idea. I honestly, the other day, I’ve said said out loud to like Brenda to no one else. Sometimes people message me, like, I’m Jeff Bezos, like, it’s just not okay, guys, you know, and I want everybody to just take a deep breath before they send a message to anyone on the internet or comment early and just think about wait an hour

Rita

Wait, just give yourself an hour. Yeah, go for a walk. process it, phone a friend. Do something that makes you not think about it for a second or think or not, actually not, but not do something that you make like you think about it. I just think people would be a lot calmer and more caring and not that this can’t be a really cool space. I’m really grateful for the internet for the moat. It’s a mixed bag. But it just Oh, it’d be so much nicer if people just like, like, I wish that lady would have been like, Oh, I I didn’t understand that. It was a clear out sale and like, you know, all all like she had commented on other people had commented being like, Oh, I’m bummed I didn’t see my size, but next time, and she commented and she’s like, Yeah, she doesn’t care about us fatties. And I’m like, and I didn’t delete any comments because I just like I don’t want to do that. But

Amanda

I know but like if you wanted to, you could. Yeah, let’s just do better for each other because this is how people give up and quit. Because yeah, because They get so discouraged because the bar keeps being raised. And ultimately, like, Yes, I am not going to be supportive of someone who isn’t trying to constantly doing better, who ignores it. But I also want to recognize when people are working hard to do better and constantly do better

Rita

And also go yell at, like companies that are like never even trying, like go put that energy into something that like, can make change, instead of like, the people that are genuinely trying to make change. Like, I don’t know, bullying them. I don’t, that’s probably not what maybe it is. I don’t know, we can’t know any intentions.

Amanda

I don’t know what it is, either. I mean, I would, I would love to know that.

Rita

Right? Don’t when the whole panty fairy thing happened, or like this thing of this lady. I’m like, I wish I could go and talk to these people and not be myself and be like, hey, so like, what did you think was gonna happen? And like, what was your thoughts? Like, I want to be like in the therapy session they have about this event? If that’s, I don’t know. But you know what I mean? Like, I just want to know, like, what is what’s going on? Because I’m recruit like, I’m receiving some crazy energy on my side. And yeah, what’s happening for you?

Amanda

Yeah, yeah, totally, totally, I, I would love to have that conversation, because I do feel, you know, something I’ve been talking about a lot on social media lately is just how I feel like there is there is a level of communication and lack of support that exists within the slow fashion community that needs to end. Because this is how people give up. And we need to be supporting one another and swooping in, when things are going awry. And being there for one another. And we conversely should not be calling out people for these things that aren’t, I just aren’t real, read the whole post, you know, find out that these were just extra panties that you had lying around. I don’t want people to quit, you know, like, I want us to keep up the momentum we’re doing and I think supporting one another and maintaining a positive space, which is not the same as tone policing. Even though I talk mice I gaslight myself about this all the time. That is the ticket like I am just often when I get a message from a troll, I just kill them with kindness and more links and messages. And usually I never hear from them again. But I just feel like I I mean, sometimes I’m just like, Yeah, fuck you block. But in general, like I really am trying as hard as possible to put more positive energy out there the negative and I know it’s hard such a hard time. Yeah, but I’m looking at that and I hope that other people will hear us talking about this and feel the same way. It’s not toxic positivity.

Rita

Yeah, cuz it sometimes it feels like it’s a losing battle. It’s like, because it’s hard. Yeah, I have negative days to where I want to be like I hate everything and be rude and stuff. But like I’m sometimes

Amanda

I’m like, do you follow me just to be mean to me, because please just stop following you know that.

Rita

I made it. I don’t know what you do. But I was getting a lot of like bad comments and weird comments. So I made it to like, you have to follow me to comment, which now if I ever do giveaway, so like, I can’t comment on everything. I’m like, well, first, you’re supposed to be following me. I mean, just to enter the giveaway if you read

Amanda

I had to do that after vegan leathergate, and I have no regrets. I don’t look back. I highly recommend for everyone. Yeah, it’s great. I mean, to ask you one last question, because I’ve been talking for two hours. What do you want to do with Panty Witch next? Like, what do you have coming? You keep you keep referencing this fairy collection, which I’ve seen on the internet. Yeah, very cute. Like, what else? What else is going on? What are you getting inspired about?

Rita

With like Panty Witch or the Great Rita Master Plan?

Amanda

Pick your poison.

Rita

I’m going to go with the Great Rita Master Plan. I mean, the fairy, the fairy thing. I’m just doing a drop. I’ve never done a like a drop. Like, it’s normally been pretty random. Because I’ve only ever really been doing drops. For the last like quarter mostly was customs. So that’s fun. But that’s not like grand plans. That’s just, that’s fun. But my dream right now I live in. You know about Washington. I live in Port Angeles and my parents and my brothers live in Sequim, which is about a 30 minute drive. I just couldn’t afford to buy a house there. I would have loved to but I and I don’t want to live with them. I love them. I just I don’t ever want to live with anyone besides my partner ever again. I get that. I feel like just like I need to have my like I can have days where I just don’t want to see anyone I want to share like living space. I’m just Yeah, but I really want to move back closer to my parents and our My like dream plan is to have property. We live in a more rural part. So like, you know, forests, I’m really in the mushroom hunting, I’d love to someday be graced by having like mushrooms on my property. And I’d also just love to have the space to have like community gatherings like, I’m really and I’ve only been to one Ren Faire but I’m a Ren Faire girl. It’s really fun. I’d love to have a space where I could like throw my own renaissance fair and not for profit, but for like people to come and like camp and dress up and Ren Faire and like, yeah, if you make stuff that you want to sell, sure, but it’s not like this. You don’t want to like commercialize thing does that? Does that make sense?

Amanda

That sounds amazing to me, because I love the renaissance fair, but I feel like its kind of gone down that hill in the past few years.

Rita

You have to be in costume mode. So sorry, like, yeah, you’re getting in if you’re not, but I just, I like I think it would be so fun to just have this space where I could like throw this it probably wouldn’t be a public thing. I’m not gonna lie just because like, it just wouldn’t like I’d call I’d be calling my own gas. But you can find me on Instagram and become my friend and make it on the guest list if this ever happened. Like it’s not open but it’s not just like I’m not just gonna be like, putting signs out but yeah, I just really want to have like, the space to have like really fun like for adults to play not in the like. Like burning like Burning Man drug like kind of but not like, based on like partying necessarily. Not not that not that bad.

Amanda

And not adult friend finder, which I until recently, really thought it was a place where people found friends.

Rita

Yeah, no, no, I’m like, I want to find those things. But I know it’s people just looking for like, they’re like, throupling.

Amanda

But yeah, yeah, like,

Rita

I really want to like create community. Me and my partner are not interested in procreating. I love children. Again. I love birth. I love being around my nieces. Like, I’m I love them. I just don’t have like, the emotional capacity and the deep inner need to do that, like, I get it, you know? Yeah. Like, you know, birth and breastfeeding sounded really fun, but I don’t need to, like make another human to explore that. I can see it through other people I love and care about and I just, I don’t think that I would be I it would be a roller coaster anyway, so we’re not having kids. And so our goal is to really like kind of sound really dumb, like feed our inner child and really, like explore life in a way that like we wouldn’t be able to if we had kids. And so we really just want like the space to do that and to be able to like build community. And yeah, I don’t know if that like answers your question. That’s kind of weird. Who knows if it will ever happen, but that’s what we that’s what we dream about.

Amanda

I mean, I love it. Sign me up. I’m trying to heal my inner child permanently.

Rita

I am. Oh, I’ll put you on the list. Yeah, great.

Amanda

I’ve already I’ve already got an outfit in my awesome, perfect coming. Well, this was so much fun. Rita. It’s like so much fun. It’s so weird, because I feel like I’ve known you 100 years. But me too. We’ve never met in real life. And really working on this podcast was the first time we like, talked and it feels so natural. Like we’ve known each other forever. So I’m just I just really enjoyed this so much. And I’m so grateful.

Rita

Well, and I just want to thank you because I like I felt for a long time that I would never like find my people. And I found through like doing this and finding communities like yours and like making my own community that there are people like there are people just like me out there. But like there are people that like care about the things I care about and stress about the things I care about. And like, I don’t know, it just like makes me not feel so alone. And like I’ve definitely cried listening to your podcast being like, Oh my goodness. Like there are other people out there. And even if I don’t know those people, like if I don’t know them personally, it’s like, just good to know that they’re there.

Amanda

Absolutely. So read it. I told read it before we started recording that there was an episode in which I was like incredibly sobbing in and I edited it all out because it made me cry to hear myself crying and I didn’t want to do that to all of you. So fun fact I have literally sobbed in a recording of closers podcast, but I will say I just want to echo what you said there, Rita. Working in the fashion industry. I have always felt like an outsider. I felt like I was just this weirdo who cared about things that no one else seemed to care about. And it made me feel like I was the problem. And when I talk about how I have fully begun to realize myself and my potential and who I am during The pandemic. It is because of the community I found. Like I just finally I’m like, Oh, here’s the place where I fit in. Yeah, it’s amazing. I’m so grateful for it. So I know we talked about how people are mean, on Instagram, but I’m also just really grateful for all the people I’ve met.

Rita

It’s like I found the like, cool kids. I want to set their lunch table and like, I get to sit at the lunch table.

Amanda

Exactly. It’s incredible. And I’m, I feel so lucky. I’m gonna start crying again, because I just feel so I know. Right. All right. Well, thank you so much, Rita.

Rita

Thank you so much, Amanda.