Episode 117: Billionaires Won’t Save Us (with Mary Alice Duff of Alice Alexander)

Amanda

Hi, everyone just a little warning here…there’s a little bit more adult language in this episode. And in the back half of it we’ll be talking about diet culture and anti fat bias. If any of this sounds bad to you, skip this episode. We’ll be back next week with far less cursing!

Welcome to Clotheshorse, the podcast that totally just tricked you by not having sponsors in the beginning!

I’m your host Amanda.

For this episode, I’m going to be splitting up the sponsor shout outs into a few segments throughout the episode. They may return to the beginning in the future, but I felt like trying something new. As a reminder these sponsors are small businesses that opt to support Clotheshorse via Patreon every month. Honestly, their support helps me cover the expenses of making the show–you would be surprised how much it all adds up, as I am every single month–and I am very grateful for their support. Please support these businesses….they are obviously super rad because they care about the work I’m doing here!

Today’s special guest is Mary Alice Duff, the founder and creative director of Alice Alexander, a size inclusive ethical brand (you rarely hear all of those words used together). Mary Alice describes herself as “a fashion person who reads too many books and has an opinion about everything.” So of course, we had a great time talking for this episode! In fact, our conversation was such a banger that there won’t be a lot of other content in this episode. After our conversation, I’ll talk about grocery stores, “just business,” and The Dark Triad (yep, it all ties together), but let’s just jump right into my convo with Mary Alice!

Amanda

The first thing I’m going to do is ask you to introduce yourself to everyone. All right?

Mary Alice

Hi, I’m Mary Alice, Mary Alice Duff. I’m the founder and creative director at Alice Alexander, which is a apparel company where we design really bright and bold, colorful pieces that are super wearable, sustainable, responsibly made, and of course, made in a diversity of sizes. And we ship those to people around the world.

Amanda

And it’s important to call out to everybody that you are not in the United States right now.

Mary Alice

No, I’m not. I have been living in the South of France for the past five months.

Amanda

That sounds so nice.

Mary Alice

You know, it is really lovely. But today, I had my first awful experience with the infamous French bureaucracy trying to get I’m trying to get my Pass Sanitaire, which is like the proof that you’ve been vaccinated. And I’ve had to call like, a dozen different places. And meanwhile, I’m doing all this in French and I am not getting fluent in French, like arguing with people trying to explain myself and it’s just so I have my first day of like, wow, this is now I’m really from the job all this bureaucratic bullshit.

Amanda

Ah, that sounds horrible to me. I mean, I can’t even handle like going to get a driver’s license. It’s way too stressful or like, passport renewal. Yeah, so

Mary Alice

Oh, passport renewal. Where’s the DMV? The DMV renewals, the worst book? Yes, it is mostly lovely. The weather is lovely. The people are lovely. Yeah, it’s been a an interesting ride.

Amanda

Well, we’re gonna talk later about why you are in France, because you’re not a millionaire or a billionaire. Living on a yacht. We’ll get to that. Let’s start by talking about how you got into fashion. Was it always your life plan that you were going to hammer online?

Mary Alice

No, oh my gosh, no, not at all. So, you know, I should explain like, I’m from Delaware County, Pennsylvania. Delco. So if anybody knows anything about telco and if my accent comes out, I’m sorry. Delaware County is like a little place outside right outside Philadelphia, and the people are like solid the Earth. Nobody cares about fashion. If you were anything remotely fashionable, they’re just gonna make fun of you. You know, they’re just gonna rip you apart. So nobody knows anything about fashion. Nobody cares about fashion. And I learned to sew as a little girl on my grandmother’s sewing machine in her you know, row home in Philadelphia. And I always I never really cared about fashion as much as I cared about clothes. I’m interested in Yeah, fabric style. Color. I’ve always had an affinity for colors like a really natural like that works that doesn’t. And style was always interesting to me, but never knew anything about designers didn’t know who anybody famous was did not watch fashion week did not covet like designer items like designer handbags or anything. That was never like a thing for me. So yeah, personal style was always interesting to me, I was always dressed nicely despite being like a low income kid. Like I always found a way to make it work. And I was always the person that my girlfriend’s would turn to like, hey, does this work? I’m going here. Is this a cute outfit? Or I have a job interview? Can you help me pick something? I’ve always been that person. But fashion like with a capital F, no. Never really, like bid into that, from like a creative or even like as a possible job. In fact, I went to school for my undergrad for psychology. And then I did a master’s in social work and a second master’s in Law and Social Policy. So what I’ve always been really interested in is why the United States in particular seems to be plagued with a whole host of social issues, despite being quote, unquote, the most powerful, quote unquote, wealthiest nation in the world. And yet, we have people and children living in extreme poverty, we have people living on the street, we have people without health care, I couldn’t wrap my brain around that as a young person. So that is what I became obsessed with. Trying to understand why those issues were so persistent in America. And I worked as a social worker for 1015 years, really focusing on larger systems issues. So you know, I did the individual one on one work and then as I got older, transitioned into more policy program development, planning, managing, thinking that would be really fulfilling, but it turns out, the nonprofit sector and government can be just as toxic and just as internally corrupt as As a any for profit company, you know,

Amanda

it’s like you can’t trust anyone?

Mary Alice

Well, I think it’s just, we’re just because we work in a nonprofit or we work for a public agency or we work for a fashion company. We’re all swimming in the same pool. Right? Yep. And you can’t like you’re not this little island that’s functioning outside of the capitalist culture that is the United States. Right? Right. So, and not to get too deep into it. We’re like, seconds into this podcast. But it’s like, it’s Yeah, you can’t escape because we’re all swimming in it every day. Yeah, you can have a pool like that’s it.

Amanda

That’s true. It’s true. I mean, I do think we’re going to talk more about how you ended up landing in fashion. But I do want to say, I think this is a really, to me. And interesting and possibly better way to, like, where you started ending in fashion seems to be to be setting you up to be a more compassionate, thoughtful business, because like, fashion and social justice do not go hand in hand. And anytime I see, I see a brand flexing that I’m like, oh, man, it’s like so transparent to me that it’s not Yeah, oh, yes. I, because all the companies I’ve worked for, and I’ve told you, some of them, they don’t give a fuck about people or the planet, I’m just gonna tell you that it’s always a cynical cash grab. Now, that doesn’t mean that the people who work there don’t care. It’s just like, the company as as it functions as it you know, its priority is making profits, paying shareholders all that does not care, because that stands in the way of reaching those numbers,

Mary Alice

of course, and they have if they’re a publicly traded company, as some of these, these companies are, they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to deliver the financial returns. And, and this is what I mean that we’re swimming in it. Companies are purposefully designed to deliver financial returns and financial returns only.

Amanda

Yep. Yeah, that’s exactly right. We are literally

Mary Alice

counting on benevolent billionaires to save us. Let me tell you, they come in you know, and, and that is what just drives me completely. I get so impatient, and I get so frustrated because I don’t want to count on rich people to save us from this crisis. No, absolutely not. And that is kind of how our system is designed. Oh, I hope Jeff Besos gives up some of his wealth so we can all stop suffering. Oh, I hope Elon Musk doesn’t build another dick rocket to the moon. It’s completely asinine that we are waiting on these people to just do the right thing cuz it’s not gonna happen.

Amanda

The phrase benevolent billionaire is an oxymoron in itself. Because, right? If you are a billionaire, you decided a long time ago that accumulating wealth was far more important to you than anything else, because really no one needs a billion dollars.

Mary Alice

No one needs a billion dollars. Yeah, one. Yeah. And I think what we really struggle with so, you know, Americans test terribly in math, I don’t know, we’re like way down the bottom. And when you say like, nobody deserves to be a billionaire, because we’re all just such we have such capitalism ingrained in us. We all have this like, knee jerk response, like, oh, but Baba, but they worked really hard. It’s like, no, no, no, you don’t understand the difference between a millionaire and a billionaire. These things? Sure somebody does something really cool. And that’s something really innovative sets up a cool company. Great. They want to go be a millionaire. Wonderful. But the difference, you know, millionaire billionaire is freaking massive. There’s no one on this planet that needs a billion dollars.

Amanda

Yeah, there’s no one. I mean, studies have been shown that you would have to spend money at this egregious amount every single day, test your lifetime. And if that’s I was thinking, we’re going off the rails already, but I was thinking nights ago. Yeah, already. I was laying in bed. And I was like, There’s got to be some sort of like mental illness attached to being a billionaire. Because narcissism that for one, but also like this, like greed that is insatiable, that you need so much, right? I don’t know. I was just I was just thinking about that, that like, you have more than you could ever actually use, even if you used it in the most wild exorbitant way, right. Yeah. So why do you still feel driven to have more? And I don’t know, shut yourself off that right. Yeah, I just You’re shutting yourself off from the rest of the world in a ways. You have to You’re, you’re wearing blinders when it comes to the wrong things in the world. And I just, it’s a type of person that I don’t I don’t actually know any billionaires personally. . I look at Jeff Bezos or you know Elon Musk on on social media or read about their shenanigans, and I’m like, No, it is a personality type. Is there a mental illness in there?

Mary Alice

You know,it’s there’s there’s something it lacks humaneness to me. Yeah, no, yeah. And this is probably not a word but like it. There, there is something there that it’s there’s a disconnect in their ability to, like reach out and connect with other human beings like how can you watch the world suffer? Knowing that with literally the stroke of a pen, you could change it. I know, I just saw that is what I can’t wrap my brain around.

Amanda

It’s so it’s so I just can’t understand it. And and I, I the just the responsibility that these men have on their shoulders, not for their actual work, but for the injustice of the world. Like to have that to have that power to possibly be able to fix things yet continue building Dick rockets instead is it’s just something that I can’t understand. And what I hate is that this is is sold to us as like life goals. Yes. Success. Yeah, yeah. It’s it’s really it’s a it’s a real problem to me. So anyway, we just took a total route, and we didn’t even get to you starting your own line.

Mary Alice

So how did I start my company? So I was a social worker, I worked in the nonprofit sector. And I was really like working my way up quickly from department department. And I found myself being the person asking board members, these were very wealthy individuals, no billionaires, mind you but multimillionaires several times over. Asking for six and seven figure checks to invest in, you know, the programming we were offering for the people that we were serving. So people experiencing homelessness, kids in Super underfunded schools, workforce development programs, that sort of thing. And I would show up to these meetings now. This point I’d got married, I had a baby and I went from wearing like a dress size 1214 which, if any listeners out there have been this size, it’s kind of the line you can kind of get away with shopping quote unquote, like straight size stores or off the rack stores, you know, to being plus size. And as I got older had a baby life. Suddenly I found myself size 16 Size 18 size 20 And then all the clothes just disappeared. It literally was like I went from shopping I can get a nice wool skirt, a beautiful silk blouse and look really sharp for these meetings to hear some stretchy polyester shit. Here’s some jeggings right that guy’s fat. Here’s some a jersey t shirt with a bunch of crap be dazzled over the chest because don’t you want everybody to seeing your huge boobs like sparkling with, you know, be jeweled stuff? Yeah, wearing maternity clothes for two years now my daughter I asked because I was just so frustrated with the lack of interesting well made good quality material, clothing in my size. And I figured there has to be a way for me to solve this issue. I had, you know, looked at all the websites. You know, I had been somebody who did shop some fast fashion definitely was into fast fashion. I was like a 20 something. The more money I made in my career, though, the more I tried upgrading, so like buying the better material. And when I was trying to find those in the larger sizes, there just was nothing there. So like I said, my grandmother taught me to sew as a little girl never applied it to clothing, more like home goods and Halloween, Halloween costumes. And I said let me see if I can actually like sew my own wardrobe. And I found all these amazing resources online. The curvy sewing Collective on Facebook is the greatest place on earth for anybody who wants to learn to sew cashmere at patterns which is started by she’s now a friend of mine named Jenny Rushmore, she started this amazing plus size pattern company. And between those two resources, I re created basically everything in my wardrobe in my size in the best and the best fabrics and the best fit Now granted, I still had this fear that my clothes were just going to explode like while I was at work I had this like this really weird belief that because I was making them on a home sewing machine they couldn’t possibly be as good as the ones may not as industrial sewing machine by an expert so we’re in a factory somewhere and that my clothes would just like explode and so I would start bringing I would back up clothes in my work. Oh my goodness, nothing ever tour I never split the scene. Nothing ever disintegrated but I had this mind block that you don’t wear homemade clothes like out in the world, right? Silly in retrospect, but yeah, I started really getting absolutely obsessed with fabric, the way my clothes fell on my body. And I also resolved all of my body hang ups simply by wearing things that fit and made me feel good. Wow, I didn’t have a desire to lose weight anymore. I wasn’t, you know, beating myself up for this change body. You know, there’s so much in our culture about bouncing back after giving birth.

Amanda

Yeah.

Mary Alice

And it was amazing that the the issue that had been plaguing me that I was having body issues, I was feeling really down about myself, I couldn’t find clothes, simply by putting clothes on my body that fit really well and felt amazing. Suddenly, I felt like the most kick ass human being in the world and I could go into that board meeting and ask for a million dollars, or I could quit my job and start a company. And that’s what I did.

Amanda

Wow.

Mary Alice

Yeah, I started taking some design classes at night to try and like beef up my skills a little bit professionalize a little bit, started getting really into business planning, I’ve always been a very strategic thinker. So that was quick, that came really natural to me. And then I got a little bit of money together and told my husband like, hey, I want to do this thing. And at first, he was like, Okay. Cool. And then when I actually, a couple months later came back. And I was like, here’s my business plan. And I have this idea. And I’m quitting in five months. And he was like, Okay. And that’s what I did. Five years ago.

Amanda

Wow. I mean, five years to me is like, that’s like, you know, you’re, you’re on track, like five years. I feel like a lot of like, new apparel brands are sort of like restaurants like what is that? Like most restaurants fail in a year or something? Yeah. If to make it to the five year mark really says that, like, all of this is paying off? What is the right way?

Mary Alice

The pandemic?

Amanda

Right, I mean, kudos. Right.

Mary Alice

So yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s been the first four years, really, the whole time has been? How do I describe it? It? It can be excruciating, to be quite honest, really. And there’s so much pressure, especially when you have employees, and but at no point, did I not believe that we could make it work. And I have to say, my partner, my husband, he is the most the couple of times were have been very seriously like, Fuck this. I just want to quit. And he’s like, No, he’s like, we you have invested too much. You have done too much. You have come too far. I’m not letting you quit today.

Amanda

Good. I love hearing that. Yeah.

Mary Alice

So yeah, it’s, uh, I always say entrepreneurship is the best course in personal development that anyone could ever invest in, because you will learn more about yourself than any, any other opportunity.

Amanda

It’s truly, I could see that. Yeah. Well, that’s it, that’s a good transition to something you and I want to talk about, which was, you know, why and how the culture at Alice Alexander is different from just about every other fashion company out there. I mean, obviously, there are exceptions, but most of them are pretty toxic. And as you mentioned, nonprofit is just so what do you do differently?

Mary Alice

So I think, Well, for starters, I should say that I just had to lay off, you know, six employees, all my employees. So if anybody’s listening and follows us, you know, that’s going on, because I’ve been very transparent. But I think, why I was able to grow Alice Alexander the way I did build the team I had and then let go of that team without, without hard feelings, right? Like, it sucks. Nobody ever wants to have to lay people off. Nobody ever wants to have to get rid of a team member, right? No one ever wants to do that nobody ever wants to lose their job. And in culturally, we, the expectation is that that is going to be an awful experience. And both parties are going to have terrible things to say about the other, right? The employee, about the employer and the employer about the employee. But I will say as far as having to dismantle a business and let go of folks where there was lots of tears, but there was never any screw you screw this through this, none of that. It was like we have given this 110% And it just didn’t work. You know, so I think part of that comes down to I never worked for a fashion company before. So I did not have like a lens from which to like, view how fashion company should be run right? As a manager, you know, my previous roles I always had a very collaborative approach when it came to really simple day to day things like work styles, like understanding people’s preferences. Some people were work better in the morning. Some people work better at night, treating people like adults, you don’t need to tell me why you need to take a sick day, I don’t need to know Seriously, no, you have the time, take the time, I don’t need a doctor’s note, you are a grown up. So it’s all these like little right? It’s all these little things. When employers get on their employees about coming in at 10 or 11, versus coming in at nine, I don’t care what time you start your day. Start your day, what works good for you. As long as you get the work done, and we meet our goals, that’s all I care about. So, you know, it’s these little day to day things. And then it’s the bigger thing. So crafting job descriptions and being really clear about what’s needed and what they’re good at what skills they bring to the table and what support they need. Doing that in a collaborative way. I think, for me, it always came down to, if I’m doing something from the top down, I’m doing it wrong. And you’re actually not going to get the results you want. You have to do things in your business, whether it’s the little day to day things, or it’s the larger big picture things that have to be done in a way that is collaborative, and transparent. And that’s going to get you not only results, but it’s going to get you buy in from your people. And so in the five years that I had my team, I always ran things that way. And I’m proud to say that the first person I hired is the last person leaving us they today is their last day. You know, we were together five years. And yeah, I had really good employee retention. And even right now, you know, they’ve all said, like, if we can figure out how to make this work, we all want to come back and work. And again, I think it’s just being a frickin human being, you know?

Amanda

Yeah, I mean, you and I were talking about one of the companies that I worked for, that is based in Philadelphia, and employees sort of came in two categories there, either they came in really fast and turned and burned. Because it’s a really difficult place to work, the demands are really high. The culture is toxic, right. And then they they left and who knows how they felt maybe they were there for such a short period of time that they didn’t walk away with a lot of negative feelings, although they find that impossible. And then there would be the people who were there 510 15 years, sometimes 20, which is really unheard of in the standard total. And when they would finally leave. They were just it was like a brutal, ugly divorce for them, where they just like hated that company. The Grudge was so massive, they felt I mean, and rightfully so, like they felt so exploited, abused, disrespected, they felt like they’ve been treated as if they were disposable. And you know, that those are the people who leave in are like, I will totally take that company. Do you know what I mean? I, I will not anybody, let anybody I know shop there, I will never hear the names of the back companies brands, or pass their stores and not feel be filled with rage. Like, that’s just so unacceptable that any employee, whether they’d been there for a year or 15 years, would leave feeling as if they had just gone through this really ugly divorce. And yet, this is the story I hear time and time again.

Mary Alice

It’s so normal, and it’s so normalized. Right? Like, yeah, normalize it from the experience of both the employee and the employer, that the employer then thinks it’s acceptable, or the business thinks is acceptable for people to feel this way. So they do nothing to change their behavior, right? Because this is the this is the norm.

Amanda

And this is business.

Mary Alice

This is business. It’s just business baby, right? Yeah. Yeah. Is this? Yeah, the water we’re swimming in, like back to the, you know, this is this is the culture of capitalism, when the bottom line is only financials, financials and how much money a company is bringing in. It does not matter if your people are angry, or disgruntled or miserable, or anything, all that matters is household numbers.

Amanda

Exactly. I mean, ultimately, like when you work for a lot of these companies within the industry, you are just a number, you’re a body in a seat that will be replaced or that role will be eliminated or whatever. And, you know, something I’ve been, I’ve been reading so much about the great resignation, there’s like 9 million think pieces about it. Right. And something I was reading and thinking about a few nights ago, not the same night that I was thinking about, do billionaires have a mental illness, but was loyalty and how employers expect this extreme amount of loyalty from loyal to their employee. Exactly. It’s not a two way street. I mean, listen, if you had a relationship in your life, whether it was your partner, your friend, some relative, that you just did everything you could for them, everything was always on their terms, but they turned around and cut you off or were shitty to you, everybody like Mary Alice, get out of that really? Exactly, right. Yes, this is the norm for work that you should prioritize work over any job, or your health, your family, all of that. But realize that at any moment, you could be cut for good. And that is, why is that? Okay? Once again, I know it’s like that see that we’re swimming in. But I, during the pandemic, I would see different articles out there about different companies who were basically treating their workers like putting them in harm’s way like, Oh, absolutely. My previous employer was still having people come in and work in the office. Yeah. And the comments on that post on Instagram, where people like, yeah, if you don’t like your job, quit it or stop being snowflakes or this is how business works. And I was like, wow, we have to get rid of that.

Mary Alice

And it’s not just business. Yeah. My husband was a teacher. Yeah, exactly the same. He had the same thing. Oh, you guys just want to work from home. You nobody wants to work. You just want to collect a paycheck. People were saying I’m gonna I should stop paying my property taxes because obviously you guys aren’t working anymore. That husband has never worked harder trying to come up with online learning plans for 32 middle school students, good lord, single debt, like are you kidding? And low income kids who don’t even have internet access, half of them are sitting in parking lots to get internet access. I just it’s it’s disgusting that we live in this world where we it is perfectly acceptable for employees, employers and organizations to treat the people as if they are just cogs in a wheel of machinery and not actually living breathing humans with lives and joy and hopes and dreams.

Amanda

Yeah, yeah. That you would literally put your life on the line to go to your job? Fire Rescue people do that. I get it fine. Soldiers, whatever. But like, you know, when you’re a teacher, or you work in fashion, you’re not signing up for that.

Mary Alice

And that’s what I mean, when the pandemic sorry, that’s what we had a pandemic, we had a COVID-19 policy that we put into place about what would happen if you came in contact with somebody? What would happen if you tested positive? We’re going to work from home, I put sewing machines, I’ve rented a U haul and put sewing machines in people’s houses so that people don’t have to come to work but could still earn money.

Amanda

Yeah, yeah,

Mary Alice

I cuz we’re making fucking clothes. Exactly. Saving lives here. Yes. Do I think our work is important? Does it matter? Does it make people feel amazing? Yes. Is it worth anybody dying? No. Is it worth you getting an illness that could financially bankrupt you? No, it’s not worth that. No job is worth that trust.

Amanda

No job. Literally no, no job. No job. No job. Yeah. And I think like, it’s these toxic cultures. I mean, they’re, they’re everywhere, and they just continue. And it’s sort of like, well, if you don’t like it, then like, don’t have just quit, just quit and don’t be a part of business. So, you know, something you and I talked about, we were getting really riled up when we were preparing for this probably isn’t a surprise to you, if you’re listening to this right now. But one thing we talked about is like how, you know, like, Amazon, all these other big, like, so called Evil companies. I mean, they’re pretty terrible, right? Nobody questions it. They’re just like, Yeah, let’s say like, the business business, like, you know, we all are gonna be a millionaire. If you want to be a billionaire, that kind of thing. Means you got to do Meanwhile, other end of the spectrum, every small business, especially if it’s women owned, especially if it’s owned by a person of color. If it’s a woman of color, forget it. It’s getting harassed. About like, not being perfect about pricing about this or that. What are your thoughts on that? Why are we such assholes to small businesses, but we’re like, whatever Bezos for Amazon.

Mary Alice

Yeah, you do what you gotta do, bro to make that dollar, right? Yeah, it’s so weird. It is. It is absolutely infuriating, infuriating, and what really, really sent me over the edge. So a company I love that makes super cool shit on their email list. They sent an email about why they had to raise prices recently, and I have done the same thing and Alice Alexander, I mean, I’ve sent that Instagram post or email and you know, really broke it down and I’m reading it and not analog. Yep, yep, live in that price of fabric price of labor. But USPS has increased their rates 30% Get it not in the lawn. And then I closed the email, in the shower, washing my hair. And I’m thinking about a tweet that I recently saw from another person I love on Instagram. And she is talking about the cost of masks how in December the box of the really good ones. Were they the K 95? Yeah, they went up a lot. They went up it was like 20 bucks in December. But then we had a fifth wave or I don’t know what we were on. I know. They went up to 50 bucks. Right? They went up to 50 bucks. And now people have to spend more than twice Yeah, I spent before and I’m like to just basis send an email explaining why he had to increase the price on the box of masks.

Amanda

Seriously, I’ve been, I’ve been reading how a lot of there was no email, I get that. Right. And he didn’t make himself vulnerable and talk about how this is his business.

Mary Alice

No, the person that whomever the seller is whether it’s Amazon or third party seller, who knows, at some point, but they saw an opportunity to capitalize in the market, and they went for it. Yeah. And that is the expectation that they are supposed to do that. Yeah. And we as the consumer grumble, and then we just get out our credit card, or we buy the thing because we need it or we want it right.

Amanda

It’s so it’s so interesting to me, because I have been, you know, talking to my clients and just doing receiving emails, like our costs are going up. This is why, meanwhile, I read a series of articles a couple weeks ago about how grocery store chains have actually been making just these incredible levels of unforeseen profits, because they just raised their prices, even when they didn’t have to you because they just assumed customers were like stuff is getting more expensive. Exactly. And yet, I didn’t get an email from Kroger. Nope, you know, and I, I didn’t go into Kroger and be like, what the hell this too expensive. You tried to teach us? No. And yet I see that kind of. I mean, honestly, it’s like, it’s bullying, on Instagram. You know, I think that we have this idea that the American Dream, which we know is bullshit, the American Dream is being a billionaire. Right? It is not running a small business, doing things the right way, feeling good about what you’re doing. And the people that affects, you know, being passionate about it. No, that is not the American Dream, the American Dream is billionaire ism. And so we can’t even look at small businesses as relatable people, you know, and like, want to support them. I it’s just so bizarre to me, because I’ve talked to people who I’m like, why don’t you shop? You know, why don’t you try to quit Amazon shop other businesses or you can’t quit Amazon, that’s fine, too. I get it. But, you know, obviously, some people are still buying a lot from Amazon, it’s a pandemic, their accessibility issues, but other people are like, it’s just too much work, where like, it might not be as good, or they might not have what I want. Or, like, who cares? It’s all buying no matter what. And those are the people who I think are like going on Instagram and being like, I can’t believe you would charge $50 for this.

Mary Alice

Right. Right. And I, I only hear that type of I only see that type of commenting on small women and minority people of color owned businesses. I don’t see it on nobody’s questioning these big retailers, there is an expectation that big businesses are in the game of profit and making money. But and then there’s also this expectation that small businesses are doing it out of the goodness of their heart. And I don’t understand how we arrived at this point.

Amanda

Why now?

Mary Alice

I can pay my rent out of the goodness of my goddamn heart. But everybody else has to pay their rent in cash. No, no, I pay my rent in cash to I pay for my groceries in cash. I pay for all the things in my life in cash. You know, like, I can’t pay for those things with sunshine and smiles. So I have to make a living. And the way in which I do that is through my small business. Right? Right. It’s a job. I shouldn’t feel ashamed of that I should not feel shame in my desire to run a profitable business. And maybe because culturally, we have such a love hate relationship with wealth. Right? You know, we aspire to wealth we aspire to being rich. But we also I don’t know what faith you grew up in. I grew up in the Catholic faith, and there was a lot of dirty feelings around rich being rich and wealth and having those things as if that was a bad thing. I’m not talking billionaires, I’m talking just like comfortable and not struggling and not worrying every single day. So I don’t know why we are so bent out of shape when we see small businesses charging prices, that not only to help them just get by that should not be the goal. Right? Free get by like I just don’t want like just don’t suffer. But like also, you shouldn’t be having like a really nice life. Yeah, right. Absolutely comfortable. Like I want to make sure you’re working like 60 hours a week and busting your ass and being stressed for sure. super stressed. And like kind of live it on the edge a little bit. No, no, no, I actually want everybody to work less. And to work less hard and to be less stressed and make more money so that you can not only invest in your business, but yourself because you are the biggest asset to your business. The person who owns it and runs it.

Amanda

Totally.

Mary Alice

I really only see those kinds of comments directed at businesses like mine. Now, granted, I don’t get those comments very often I’ve, I’ve shut them down very early in my business. You know, I remember the early years getting a lot of those comments and being like, very clear, I don’t tolerate that shit in my space. Good. My Instagram is my digital house, and I don’t let assholes in my house.

Amanda

I love that.

Mary Alice

We’re gonna be kind and we’re gonna be respectful to disagree. That’s totally cool. But you’re not gonna say things like that you’re not going to disparage me or my teammates, or our level of expertise and skill and just us being human beings and that we have a right to live a nice life just because we’re humans, and we’re here on planet Earth. But yeah, I shut that down really early in the business’s development. But I see a lot of other small businesses get comments like that, and I’m just like, Huh, you got to stand up for yourself. And you just got to tell people like that. No, no, you can’t make comments like

Amanda

that. I totally I to be honest, I in the beginning of clotheshorse was really hesitant to block people because I, you know, I was like, Oh, this is the community, like, I don’t want to censor censoring things. But now I’m like, fuck you. You come in here. And you talk to me, like, I’m Jeff Bezos and tell me I post clickbait or I’m incompetent or don’t know what I’m doing. You’re gonna get blocked? Because you’re not here to have a conversation.

Mary Alice

Exactly. That’s the difference. Yeah. Yes. The difference when you can autumn when you automatically see that you don’t want to have a conversation here. That’s, that’s when it’s like, no, no, we’re not going to do this. And also, why should I provide more free labor? person on the internet, who is very obviously does not want to actually grow and move on from your current position. Right? Yeah. Like know, that you have, you know, your Instagram is incredible. You provide an unbelievable amount of content. And it’s all there if people want to take the time to read it, you know?

Amanda

Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I, I, I don’t understand, I think I mean, listen, I’ve been having conversations with all my friends, because a lot of us have been dealing with mean people on the internet. And it definitely people on the internet, right, it definitely accelerated over the last few months. And I think, you know, like, I was telling when our friends there was this day I woke up, I was like, I can’t take it anymore. Someone had sent me this nasty message overnight. And by using vintage inspiration for my visuals, that I was like spreading this, like anti vintage sentiment, it was really toxic. And I know anyway, they were just grasping at straws, right? They wanted to be mean to someone and I was like, I get it. They’re had a bad day. They don’t know me. I’m this faceless person that they can just be mean to, I shouldn’t have to go on the internet and say, Look at me, I’m this vulnerable person to to get people to be nice. But unfortunately, we are. And I That morning, I opened my phone. And the first thing on Apple news was this Washington Post article, Jeff Bezos reference here, Washington Post article about how people are like, on their worst behavior of like, all time right now. Because, because like we’ve been going through so much just like the trauma. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I was like, okay, but I always have to like, listen, I agree. We have all been through it. Yeah, that doesn’t mean we to go out there and be jerks to one another. And it doesn’t mean that we have to take it.

Mary Alice

Yes. Yes. So I can recognize. So then this is where my social work training, I always am thankful that I went through so many years of training, because there was something we always used to say. And it’s that hurt people hurt people. Yeah, well, people who are hurt, who are hurting, are going to lash out and look for others to hurt. And that also doesn’t mean that you can allow those people to walk all over you and treat you like shit. So, so when somebody comes for me and has something to say, or as, you know, a real attitude or wants to be really disrespectful, I can shut down that conversation in a way that doesn’t throw shit back in their face. Right? Because they’re already hurting. Right. But I can do it in a way that’s going to protect my peace. Yeah, absolutely. So absolutely. You know what, I’m not gonna, I’m gonna explain my position. And I’m not going to explain this further. Right? Like, yeah, I need to take the conversation offline. Like, we don’t need to do that we’re not in relationship. Right. And that’s the other thing like, Who are you to each other? Really, like, a person on the internet? Who follows me? Versus like, are you a part of my family? Are you my partner? Are you a friend? You know? And that’s the other thing like weighing like, how much time and energy Am I gonna invest in this when we’re not in a relationship and we don’t have plans to be in one. So why do we need to take this conversation further? Right? Yeah, I’m really excited about that because I’m a very sensitive and very feeling person and I take everything personally. And so for me, I have to be really, really, really super mindful about where I give any attention. Otherwise, I just I literally will not be able to function.

Amanda

Absolutely. I mean, it’s it’s weird, like, I will have a conversation with my husband, and I’ll be like, I never would have foreseen a situation in which I would be upset about something that happened on Instagram. But these things I know, they take a toll, right? Yeah. Even if that person you blocked them, or you feel like you defuse the situation. It’s still in there. And it’s yeah, it gives me a lot of anxiety. So absolutely. I, I don’t, I think it’s important, much as people are like, Oh, it’s just business. This is how business is. A lot of people tend to be like, oh, let’s just just how social media is. It’s like, Yeah, but it doesn’t need to be that way. We don’t need to expose it.

Mary Alice

Like, let’s not normalize bad behavior.

Amanda

Yeah, exactly. We do an awful lot of that. What conversely, expecting like next level saintly, pure behavior from small businesses.

Mary Alice

We’re flawed, we’re all gonna make mistakes, you know? And it’s, it’s the inner Yeah. It’s like a while exactly out there. So I try not exactly much time on it. I’m actually getting pretty good at that. So that’s good.

Amanda

That’s good. It’s best, it’s best for everyone. So you touched on something a few minutes ago that I want to talk about, which is just this idea that we have to justify as small business owners. As people who are doing any kind of work, who are 100% not billionaires, we have to justify any Meaker quality of life that we have. And like, like, we’re not like everyone’s not living on a yacht. I’ve had this. Honestly, same conversation with so many people who work is activist world of like, slow fashion, or, you know, environmentalism, like they’re like, Yeah, people think I’m like, making Instagram posts for my yacht. I’m like, Yeah, you don’t get it. But I think there’s this weird disconnect. I already know where you’re gonna, where your feelings are on this, but I want to hear you say it out loud. Can you be anti capitalist and still get paid for your work? Comma? Is it okay to or maybe more of a semicolon? Is it okay to profit from your work?

Mary Alice

Yes, absolutely. Yes. And yes. And I think what’s really important is like, we have to tease out what, like the difference number one between capitalism and commerce, right. So capitalism is a system of extracting profits from labor in a way that gives nothing back to the laborers, right? And we treat human beings as if they are modifiable goods that we can just pull, pull, pull pull from, right, they are just cogs in the wheel. And all of the wealth is concentrated at one end of the spectrum. And at the other end of the spectrum, there is zero power, right? Different. So that’s, that’s an economic system, right. And then there’s commerce, which has existed since the dawn of time. So you’ve got a blacksmith and he makes some shit and you’ve got a baker and she bakes some stuff, and they’re traded, right? And then money is invented, somebody is paying for things we have always needed to buy or barter our way to get things right, so that we can live our lives. So I think we have to really tease those things out. I think, in this world that we’re living in right now, where we’ve seen the incredible damage that a hyper hyper capitalized society has done to us as human beings, we have this like knee jerk response to freak out anytime we see somebody profiting or making wealth for themselves as a result of their business. Because our brain like we just can’t separate that person, that small business owner doing well from the horrendous asshole that is Jeff Bezos, right? So it’s like, yeah, we have to be those those two things are different. Those are different. We should want all of us to be profiting from our work in a way that enriches our lives, and makes life less stressful. Listen, I’ve been poor. I’ve been 200% below the poverty line. I’ve had to apply for aid. Being poor fucking sucks. It’s shocking. So I’m traumatized. From the years of not being able to pay my bills. I’m almost losing my house to foreclosure. I am fucking traumatized by that shit. I would not wish that on my worst enemy. So why do we get so upset when we see good people and good people making money? And I’m not talking about billionaires. I’m talking about enough money that they don’t have to work 60 hours a week that they can pay for the things they need in their house. They can go on vacation a couple times a year. They can not work on the weekends. We should want that for everyone.

Amanda

Absolutely, they could see a doctor whenever they like things like that cheese. These are luxuries you do not like when you’re poor. You do not get to know you don’t whenever you’re sick. No you don’t you you don’t you have so much anxiety. You don’t so Anxiety about logging into your checking account.

Mary Alice

And the credit creditors calling you and thinking that you’re oh my god, I lose your house or coming up with excuses about why you don’t got the money again this week. Listen, I like I said, I would not wish it on my worst enemy. It is the amount of stress and what that does your body. It’s unreal. So yes, we should all of us as small business owners, if we want to do the most good we possibly can in the world, and I have a feeling that we want to do good. We should all be striving towards running profitable small businesses that we are making a wage that is not just a living wage, but a thriving wage so that we can give back in our communities so that we can get shit done. My goal personally, is I want to write biggest checks to the most progressive candidates so they can get elected to the United States. Because whether or not yet, money runs politics in the US. I don’t like that return. But it is a truth. Right? And so my desire is that sure you need a big F check this super progressive person who’s gonna finally help us get rid of the filibuster in the Senate. Yes, how much money let’s do that. That’s that is what I want to do. I want to write checks to people to actually change the Senate shit. And I can’t do that if I’m freaking broke. My best analogy because I have struggled with this for a long time. You know, being a social worker working with some of the poorest folks then actually becoming an extremely low income person. I really struggled with this idea of it being okay for me to want to build wealth. And I was working with a coach on this. And I was really, really struggling with this. And she said, I want you to imagine that you’re in a lake. And everybody in the lake including you, you’re all drowning, you’re all struggling to say, with your head above water, you all are in the same financial position, you are all broke, you’re all super low income. You can’t help each other. She’s like, but if you have resources, you have a boat, and you can pull people up out of the water. Or you can go to shore and get more helpers, you can build more boats, and then you can help all the people out of the water. And it was just such a powerful visual for me. Because I was so convinced that to be in solidarity, I also had to be struggling. And I’ve realized, yeah, that’s actually not helpful.

Amanda

No, no, I mean, this is, I love hearing this because I, I struggle with this on my side, too. Like, I feel guilty that I have a full time job, right? Now. Imagine that imagine feeling guilty for having to work for a living. And that’s like where I am where I’m like, oh my god, like, we can afford groceries and stuff now. And I’m not like losing sleep every night about like, what’s gonna happen to us next. And we’re not rich at all, you know, but it, it is interesting. I feel like we get into this mindset. And then at the same time, we’re like, oh, but like, totally spend your billions of dollars to build useless rockets. Right, like we all have a lot to unpack, we are a lot to unpack, because Americans

Mary Alice

in particular, we have a very bizarre relationship with money and wealth. And there’s a lot of unpacking, and there’s a lot of trauma around all of that. But at the end of the day, I really do hope and if you have I’m sure you have small business owners listening here, please prioritize making your businesses profitable and paying yourselves well, because you are your number one creative asset. And if you you cannot pour from an empty cup. If you are stressed, if you are frazzled, you cannot do your best work. And as one of my business mentors used to tell me, you can’t change the world if you don’t exist if your business doesn’t exist.

Amanda

I love that. So I love that. So speaking of unpacking, and collective trauma, let’s talk about the challenges. Yeah, the challenges of making clothes in more sizes, because my experience in the industry has been that it is, it is so fucking hard to get clothes made in larger sizes, for reasons. I can go into them. The reasons are unknown, because they’re all in like people’s head. They’re known but like they’re not. They’re no they’re not. No, you know what I mean? Like? Like, yeah, fit is more challenging. It costs more money. But the problem is that more companies haven’t invested the money in that more. Factories aren’t. I mean, factories are just confused by it. Sometimes they say they can’t do it. And it’s like, Come on, guys. There’s the unknown part, right? I mean, I know what’s going on behind the scenes there. But it’s so egregious, because what we really see is all these companies leaving money on the table, right? And their goal is to make money so…..

Mary Alice

So at the end of the day, this can all be explained by fatphobia. And I get a lot criticism when I say shit like that, oh, it’s just an oversimplification, blah, blah, blah. And the reason I say that is pretty simple. If you look at what has happened in fashion in the past 10 years, all this crazy shit we’ve come up with in regards to sustainable fashion, right? We’re making handbags on a cactus or, you know, mushrooms. And we’ve got sequins that are like biodegradable, we have invested a metric fuck ton of cash into these quote unquote sustainable and I’ll get to the quote unquote why it’s not fun. Yeah, yeah, but we have no problem investing in these things and exploring them and spending money on them. But then when we talk about making clothes bigger, all of a sudden, it just gets too hard. That’s too hard. It’s too hard. Yeah, reality is we don’t want fat people in our brand. Our brand is aspirational. We fat is not aspirational. We don’t want people dressing in our clothes, who are that size, that that is the reality of it, right? And then that directs where the money flows. If the people at the top or the designers, whomever don’t believe that fat people can be beautiful, are beautiful, deserve to be in these clothes are aspirational, then those clothes just won’t get made. It’s just that simple. And the reason I know this to be true, is at my company, also, Alexander, we created all of our patterns in house, we did not have like any specialized training. Yes, my employees were to fashion school, but they weren’t learning how to design for fat folks. We brought in other fat folks, myself included, and we made clothes for them. That’s what it was we imagined that we took their measurements, we created patterns, we put the clothes on their body, and we tweaked and tweaked and tweaked and tweaked until we figured out what worked. And then we came up with a formula for how to make patterns without folks and me myself being fat. I don’t understand why companies say This is so fucking hard when it’s not isn’t an investment. Yes, of course, anything’s an investment, we have to make two sets of patterns, you have your plus patterns. So from 1x to 4x. And then you have your smaller patterns from extra small to large. And then they have to meet in the middle and you have to smooth out all the grade rules. Yes, there are technical challenges. From a production standpoint, yeah, now you have to split your sizes between your straights and your plus. And that means you might be getting less of the sizes and more of the sizes. But the reality is, this isn’t some like incredible math equation that is just impossible to figure out. It is rooted in fatphobia. And I think once we can finally be honest about that, then we’re going to start to see movement in the industry. But if we keep coming back to it’s just too hard, it’s just too expensive. Then the conversation shuts down, right, because people don’t know how to solve those problems. But if we really say it is about fat phobia, and this is fat phobic bullshit, and we have to start calling people on this, then I think we can start to see some change.

Amanda

Yeah, I mean, that’s what it really is. Right? Like, I mean, like the, with a huge company that I worked for, and Philly, absolutely refuses to make larger sizes. And certainly they have all the resources in the world to do it. And there’s, it’s interesting to me, because I saw all the ways that that company and all the other companies I worked for, except for ModCloth, prioritize prioritized profit, stacking up that money over anything else. And so therefore, we were always, you know, having to make so called tough decisions to deliver those profits, like, you know, laying people off and underpaying people on the road and benefits and all that stuff. But yet, here’s an opportunity to have this huge revenue try for, like so much money. And it’s like, no, I mean, that is like some target is

Mary Alice

and I really think there’s also another thread that we need to pull on there. No fashion pun intended. But remember, who is fashion for? Is it actually for women? Or is it for women to be wow, I met. Right? Think about that. Because I’ve shopped in stores and fucking clothes are really uncomfortable. Bras suck. Spanx suck. A lot of these things are uncomfortable, but they make my body look hot. And who does that matter to the male gaze? Right? Right. Yeah. Yes, profitability is important. But what straight men think about you is probably even more so in their eyes. Right? Yeah. And I think that’s something I really need to kind of wrestle with. You know, it’s it’s not just capitalism. It’s also the patriarchy. You know?

Amanda

Yeah, yeah. So this is reminding me speaking of patriarchy, speaking of rich white men… So, at one of my jobs, there was a merchant development program where like, you know, every week or so you like, if you were early in your career, you would go to these different seminars about different topics to develop you as a merchant as a buyer. And in one of the sessions, they had the founder of the company or CEO of rich white Republic, man, come and speak to us about founding the brand and everything. And he said something that I mean, this was so long ago, and my skin still crawl every time we think about it. So now all of you get to have your skin crawl. And he said, I mean, this is a man who’s like You know, I would say older than my dad. He says, it’s really important that girls feel sexy. Oh, so if they’re going to wear a loose shirt, their body needs to be exposed. Or our it needs to be low cut in the front if it’s going to be oversized or like there always needs to be some skin showing, because it’s really important that girls feel sexy. Wow. And I just was like, is that what makes girls feel sexy? To like, wear a high low top? Is that? Is that what it is? Because I actually when I’m like, feeling sexy, usually has nothing to do with like, parts of my body being exposed to the world or feeling uncomfortable. This sounds to me like your back cracks hanging out, or you’re getting a draft

Mary Alice

And like, why these are that to you?

Amanda

Right, right. Why I’m a woman

Mary Alice

Oh, sex appeal to you? Why? Yeah, most of you.

Amanda

I just thought that that was really, really, he also did a weird thing where he turned around and kind of showed u. but I think, for me, as a human who exists on this planet, what’s important to me is feel safe, warm, but not too warm, comfortable, confident, secure, you know, inspired, healthy and well rested. These are all the things when I think like, oh, feeling sexy.

Mary Alice

But also like I get to choose when I feel that way. Right.

Amanda

Right. Right, exactly. And it’s probably it shouldn’t have to be on these terms. Exactly. They’re, like I dated this guy years ago, like, and I’m really like, I’m into leering many different clothes on top of each other having like, the biggest outfit when you walk in the room. He said, sometimes it’s hard to tell if you feel attracted to me, because you’re always wearing so many layers of clothes. And I was like, What? What would that mean? How about about like, how I choose to spend my time? Right? What a weirdo. But I do think it’s sort of it’s like hashtag patriarchy right there. Right?

Mary Alice

Oh, yeah, I really, I really have been struggling with this just notion of how and this is my personal design perspective is that we design clothes for the wearer, not the viewer. So and it’s such a it’s an important nuance, because so much of fashion is about how we’re seeing how we’re perceived. And yes, culturally, we live in a world where like, what we wear people notice and they make judgments about us. But at the end of the day, the wear has to be the number one priority, how it makes you feel right? Is it comfortable? Does it make you feel confident, is make you feel secure? Does it make feel safe? Does it bring you joy? You know, and we have so many companies who are run by people living in bodies that don’t represent their customer base. And so they actually don’t have the perspective about what actually matters when you’re wearing clothes. You know? So yeah, your former boss, which is like the grossest thing ever, but not at all surprised, and also almost some kind of like, okay, he’s at least almost what? What do you think?

Amanda

I guess he put his cards on the table. Yeah. Okay, well, let’s let’s move on here. Because I can talk about that. That’s seminary. So it’s right there. I have to unpack the trauma of hearing that statement in the meeting. It was like 15 years ago, and I’m still struggling with it. How has the pandemic affected your business? Because you talked about, you know, you just had to lay a bunch of people off like what’s going on?

Mary Alice

Yeah. So you know, the pandemic has been brutal. And actually, like, it’s, I don’t know, if I would have made the same decisions that I made, had I known it would have gone on this long. Cereal. And the irony is, is we moved into a new space, the day the city shut down all the small business, all businesses, Oh, my 2020, I was standing in our news, I remember that day. Full of all of our boxes, the movers had just dropped off the machines. It was around lunchtime, and my employees showed up. They were all excited. And a couple hours later, the mayor said all businesses are shut down for the next 90 days. And I remember just going home and like weeping, because it felt like everything I had worked so hard for and all of the sacrifices that my family and I had made to get to where we were, was just being taken away. And I know we were in a global pandemic and I should be thinking about others. But I was selfishly just thinking about what the hell does this mean, for me and us? And, you know, for the next 90 days, we, we pivoted I know that words whatsoever us. My team worked from home. They were sewing from home and we sewed 1000 masks. And we distributed those masks to low income people, people who are using drugs and more, you know, people who are experiencing homelessness, you know, working with various nonprofits in Philadelphia People who were not being prioritized for PPE, and we knew that we could quickly get them masks. And so we just we did that. And we really tried, I mean, we really tried for almost two whole years, we use every resource available to us private grants, government grants. But the damage that COVID has done to small businesses like mine, you know, when I calculate it up on paper, it literally makes me sick about how much money we have lost, trying to weather this thing. And really the horrific and lackluster response from city state and federal government. We literally tried everything. But we just ran out of time, you know, and I kept my team on for 13 months, longer than I basically supplemented our revenue every month for 13 months past when we actually made enough revenue to keep on a team of our size. And I did that, because I really believed I really believed it would work out, I believe that we had built a good enough team, and we they’re excellent human beings, I believe that our product was valuable enough and wanted, I believe that the factory issues were experiencing, you know, that that those were, we were gonna overcome those, I believe that supply chain issues we were experiencing, we could overcome them. And we literally just ran out of time. And so I laid off half the team in November, and the remaining team last month. And, you know, we are moving forward with the business mainly because I have to this is my only source of income for my family. And because I really do believe we make an incredible product, and our customers will be the first to tell you that the economics just don’t really work. You know, my vision was to build a factory in Philadelphia and create a job training program and really do something cool and awesome. And COVID took that away from me, as it did for a lot of people, right? So it has it’s forced me to change everything about what is possible and about what I want and being really clear about my priorities. And so, yeah, it was a it’s been a really rough couple of years. But we’ve still got plans, and we’re gonna be producing a lot less focusing on doing two collections a year versus lots of like mini collections and single drops throughout the year. Yeah, I’m really prioritizing these pieces that bring me joy, as opposed to what everybody is doing right now. Like athleisure and sweatpants. Like, I don’t want that I want. I want beautiful clothes that make me feel amazing. So yeah, COVID it’s been absolutely devastating. I can’t understate it enough. It’s an incredibly stressful. But yeah, we’re just gonna keep moving forward.

Amanda

I mean, so that and that is part of the reason you move to France, not because you’ve like retired onto a yacht.

Mary Alice

So. So yeah, the reason I’m here is multi layered. First and foremost, you know, being an entrepreneur in the United States is pretty much impossible unless you have if you don’t have health insurance. So I have a couple of chronic health conditions, one of which is a heart condition that I was terribly sick with for a few years, when I first started my business, and the procedures cost $200,000 to get done that I had to get done. And I come from a family with chronic health issues. And it really got scary to think about how we could be medically bankrupt. Because, like, no fault of our own right. And so that was one of the reasons why I was like, we should really consider moving somewhere where, you know, we don’t have these worries about health care, I also wanted to really decrease our cost of living. You know, we’re living in the Northeast in the United States, you know, with a mortgage and big utility bills, and just like it felt like we never, ever had enough. And we for years, we just really struggled. We couldn’t pay our bills at all. And it was just so stressful and traumatic. And so my vision was really I want to learn how to dramatically simplify our lives. And one of the ways I wanted to do that was you know, financially, like how can we lower our expenses, but without living in such a way where you’re crushing your quality of life and you’re constantly worried about every nickel you’re sending. I didn’t want to live that way either. Right? So I wanted to find a way to bring joy into our lives, improve the quality of life while lowering our overall family expenses. And so we decided on France we live in mo pa, which is a city in the south of France. The weather is beautiful, it’s pretty warm every day so we don’t have to worry too much about our utility bills. You know, we take a tram everywhere and electric bikes we don’t bad expense. We don’t have The health care expenses that we had back in the United States, we have an excellent health care system here. The cost of getting here was high, you know, the visa costs and doing all of that. But for us, it felt like a really wise investment. Yeah, and I’m also working on some stuff for the business here, because we are producing in Europe. So it actually gets me closer to some of our suppliers. And we have some cool stuff that’s happening that’ll be launching this spring that we’ve been working on for the past six months here. But yeah, for me, it was a really big, I wanted to find a way for us to dramatically change our lives, and create more joy and peace and ease in our lives, to allow me my family to really focus on each other and all the time that we’ve that we can spend together. And this was the way that I figured out how to do it.

Amanda

I love it. I mean, the medical, when you started talking about the $200,000 procedure, I immediately started, I started to shut down because this is like I mean, I don’t like wants to get going back to this idea that like, out here. We’re seeing like billionaires operating without any pushback. I mean, a little bit, but like, in general, people are like, whatever, it’s business. And we’re and we’re being like Dixie and all businesses. The struggle is so hard here in the United States.

Mary Alice

Like it feels like everything is a struggle, it feels like it’s like a constant battle. You know,

Amanda

a constant battle. Yeah, it’s so hard. We need to be focusing our energy on that rather than questioning people about like, why you charged $50 For this thing you sold yourself.

Mary Alice

Right? Right. I’m much more interested in systemic issues, challenging these systemic issues, so that everybody can live a life of joy and peace and ease, right and happiness. Like that should be the goal. In my opinion.

Amanda

Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, like, people who push back and are like, Well, why didn’t even talk about fashion? It’s stupid, or like, what does it matter how many clothes I buy at h&m? I’m like, Listen, this entire industry is like a case study and all the problems in the world right now. They all intersect there. They all intersect. It’s so true. It’s so true. And it’s like so much money exchanges hands so much exploitation happens so much. Yes. It’s people think I was just close. But it’s not just clothes.

Mary Alice

It’s not just clothes. It’s not just clothes. It’s a huge system. And when we when we dismiss it as that we neglect all of the power that us as an individual, the power that clothes give us as an individual, how we show up into a room, how we show up into a meeting how we show up in our lives, how confident or confident we don’t feel right. And ask any marginalized person, especially if that person if clothes matter. And they’ll tell you their experience. I can’t pop into a shop and just buy something. Right, right. Literally, I can’t buy a bra. I can’t buy a pair of underwear. I can’t buy a pair. If I went on vacation and I lost my my suitcase. What would I do?

Amanda

Right? That’s terrifying.

Mary Alice

Yeah, I can’t buy a bathing suit. I can’t pop into a shop and buy new clothes. Yeah, where we especially where I live right now there’s nothing.

Amanda

And I feel like that’s like a privilege, the privilege to be able to do that, that a lot of people are unaware of…

Mary Alice

Completely unaware of despite plus sized people making up the majority of US population.

Amanda

It’s so bizarre.

Mary Alice

I don’t because we hate fat people. We don’t see them. We pretend they’re not there.

Amanda

Well, it’s like because we see it as a temporary thing. Right? Like, if you’re any valuable human, you’ll move out of it. It’s ridiculous.

Mary Alice

My favorite was always so when people like you and they find you attractive. And then you tell them so you know, I’ll be with girlfriends or whatever. We’ll be talking about shopping on this that and I’m like, Oh, I can’t shop there. They’re like, why not? Like, oh, they don’t make my size. And they’re like, oh, have you tried on the bigger size and like, you have no concept for how fat my SS? Because I am I am attractive in your eyes. If you think I’m funny or smart and conventionally attractive. I can’t possibly also be fat because then your brain is just going to explode. Yes. And it’s like no, my ass is that fat? Like I can’t fit in an airplane seat. People were like, wait, what? Like yes. Why is this hard for you to understand? What is not connecting in your brain? Yeah, it’s just like, we when I when when we hear things like fashion is frivolous. Yeah, it’s really frivolous. If you can pop into anywhere and get exactly what you need. I can’t even buy a basic pair of black fucking pants at a store. If I lost them on vacation, I needed to go get something like if I got invited to an event and like needed something special to wear. I can’t just pop into a shop and buy a gown. I can’t get anything off Rent the Runway. Like that’s just not a thing for me. Right and so many other fat people. Just not a thing.

Amanda

It’s just not a thing and I think that it is it’s so interesting our our the way our society operates as being fat, you know, sometimes they try to like medicalize it. Yes, that’s the term but like it’s an illness, right? We can do is ignore it. Let the medical professionals deal with it. The medical

Mary Alice

professionals handle this. But it’s also like, they’re not handling it. But it’s terrible. Yeah. Any fat person with any problem? Not even if you have a fucking broken arm and you go to the doctor, they’re like, Have you considered losing weight? I’m like, my fucking arm is broken.

Amanda

Exactly. I fell out of a tree or something. Yeah. But like, how do you consider losing weight? It’s ridiculous. There’s that right, but then I’ll cover so it’s like being fat, so many people’s worst nightmare. And their worst insult. I remember getting into a disagreement with a friend of mine. And she immediately was like, Yeah, well, you know what? You’re fat. Yeah. Yeah. At least I’m not fat. And I was like, Whoa, way to show your true colors.

Mary Alice

Right? Right. Yes, I’m fat and my hair is brown. And my eyes are green. And I’m six foot tall. And I’m really funny and smart. What else? Yeah, yeah. And so me, call me a bitch. Like, get a better insult. Because that one’s not an insult.

Amanda

I know. Imagine fighting with somebody be like, Well, yeah, well, you’re tall. You’re tall.

Mary Alice

Like, oh, thank you. You have eyes. Congratulations.

Amanda

Congratulations for your powers, your astute powers of observation. Yeah, I mean, it’s it. We’re so far away from untangling this, and like making it better and fair. And I just, it’s like, sometimes I get depressed. Or I’m like, I don’t, I can’t see the end of it. You know, I mean, it’s with like, so many things. It’s not, it just, it’s not just anti fat bias and people being shaved heads and not making clothes for people and all this other stuff. But it’s, it’s one of those things where I’m like, how do we delete this bullshit from people’s brains? You know, is their pill? Should we medicalize anti fat bias is fat phobia and illness that we can cure, that we could care, maybe that’s the direction we need to go?

Mary Alice

Absolutely is I mean, oh, because what they’re doing right now you work in. I mean, I was just reading a thing the other day, you know, discriminating somebody based on their size is legal in 48 states, you can get fired for being fat. in 48 states in the United States of America, fat women earn, I think it was $10,000 less per year than their slimmer counterparts, believing and the fatter they are, the less money they make. Yeah, that’s discrimination. It’s discrimination. But we have this long held belief that your weight is with it. Not only is it within your control, but it is a moral failing, if you do not remain thin. And again, again, this comes back to the male gaze, the patriarchy. And I hate to like, oversimplify it. But at the end of the day, that’s what it comes down to. That women are rebellious. They’re bad women and girls, right? They’re not following the rules. They’re not staying in the box. Because we’re saying fuck that. I’m gonna let my body do what my body does. And I don’t have to explain it to you. I don’t have to say, Oh, I was sick or had a baby or any of that shit. You can just be fat for no other reason that you just are able to explain it away. You don’t have to medicalize it. But you’re a human being there deserves to exist and deserves love and respect.

Amanda

Yeah, yeah, I was reading a while back. I don’t even know what I was reading. I read so much. It’s just all in my brain swirling around the origins of like, suddenly women being expected to be as thin as possible to diet compulsively because I also want to say that, like diet, culture is not just about thinness, it’s control. Right? It’s about obedience, distracting us from our real potential. Yeah, it all began to really come up in the like the late Victorian era, as people started to say, like, Listen, if you’re a good Christian woman who really is in service to God, then you will be starving yourself. Because you’ll be denying yourself food, and I guess probably like, you know, good, good, solid blood sugar levels, if you really, really appreciate God, and it’ll be and are obedient to Your husband, as God wants you to be in all these other things. And I think when you break it down that way, you know, there are plenty of people out there who would hear you say that and be like, that’s really fucked up. And I’m like, Yeah, welcome to diet culture, bro. Yeah, so going strong.

Mary Alice

And there’s a lot of research around the racialized origins of fatphobia. I would encourage people to check out the works by Sabrina strings, who talks about how the, like during the slave trade, how it became this, we would objectify black women and African women and their bodies and call them names and that it was white women who they had to make sure their bodies didn’t look anything like that. Right? Yeah. Because how Big Breasts are a big, but it was rude. It was, you know, rooted in racism. And so it’s really, really interesting when we look at it through that lens, and really any diversity and body type, it’s all about conforming to the white, European standard, right? And anything that deviates from that is bad. And it’s really fucked up when you think about it.

Amanda

And the white European standard is like delusional too. It’s not real, like completely,

Mary Alice

it’s all it’s, it’s all made up. It’s all made up. And it’s all just another form of control. Absolutely, you know, and imagine how much time our brains would have how much time and space, our brains would have to create beautiful things to be joyful, to advocate to organize to activate, if we weren’t obsessed with making our body smaller.

Amanda

Totally. Absolutely. I agree. Well, this has been so delightful. Has to you. Do you have any final words of wisdom or just important things you want to tell everybody?

Mary Alice

Hmm, you know, and I think about sustainable fashion you and that’s what so many of your podcast listeners. And we didn’t even really touch on this, but the thing that I’m just obsessing over lately is just overconsumption. And that if we can’t actually start to be real about our insatiable need to consume as many items as possible, you know, I was just playing with math before this 80 billion garments created a year we have 1 billion consumers, each person is consuming 80 garments a year. If we can’t tackle the issue of consumption, no amount of recycled leggings are gonna save us from this mess. Oh, my God. So yeah, I think just the absolute best thing each and every one of us can do is to really think about style and fashion as cultivating a wardrobe over time of pieces that you love, that are the best quality that you can afford, that fit your body and not forcing your body to fit into the clothes. And really, that just bring you joy. And if we can focus on that we’re gonna stop chasing all the bullshit trends we see on Instagram and Tiktok are going to stop popping out to the shop every 5.5 days to get something new. And we’re going to slow down our overall consumption, because that’s really the only way out of this mess that and massive government regulation, but the way the United States is going these days, I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

Amanda

I think that unfortunately, we all have to make changes in our lives to make larger, systemic change. And I think that that’s really hard for people. It’s something you know, and climate change is the same thing, right? Like, yes, we need better policies, and we need big corporations to clean up their act. But like real talk, we’re also going to have to change our habits, we’re gonna have to take public transportation, we’re gonna have to think about the way we heat and cold cooler, who homes differently, and I mean, so many other things. And I think that people tend to want to change, they definitely they’re like, Yeah, of course. But they don’t want to have to do any changing. And yeah, that’s an argument I come up against a lot.

Mary Alice

Yeah, there’s something I always say. I think the distance between the world we want and the work we’re willing to do for it. Sometimes I think it might be too far. Yeah. I mean, we have and we have to really be willing to close that gap, both at a systemic level at an individual level. And, you know, I don’t really know if we’re there yet. I’m going to do my part. I’m also really interested in working on like more policy level changes. But yeah, it’s a big, big, big leap.

Amanda

It is it. We have a lot of we have our work ahead of us to have we need everybody involved, everybody.

Mary Alice

Yes. And we need to get rid of the filibuster in the Senate.

Amanda

Obviously, I can’t believe we’re still having this conversation.

Mary Alice

Oh, you to get rid of Senator Manchin and Senator Sinema. But yeah, every election.

Amanda

Yes, seriously, especially if you live in West Virginia or Yes, please. Or Arizona

Well, thank you so much.

Mary Alice

Thank you for having me. This has been fun.

om Barbie…to scary stories about clothing. Perhaps this episode is the Barbenheimer of slow fashion? Hmmm is that too cheesy to say? Anyway, I’m excited to jump into my conversation with Alden. In this conversation she will cite PFAS, which I wanted to explain to you really quickly.

From the US Food and Drug Administration:

“Per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) are chemicals that resist grease, oil, water, and heat. They were first used in the 1940’s and are now in hundreds of products including stain- and water-resistant fabrics and carpeting, cleaning products, paints, and fire-fighting foams. Certain PFAS are also authorized by the FDA for limited use in cookware, food packaging, and food processing equipment.

Chemically, individual PFAS can be very different. However, all have a carbon-fluorine bond, which is very strong and therefore, they do not degrade easily. (this is why they are often referred to as “forever chemicals.”

The widespread use of PFAS and their persistence in the environment means that PFAS from past and current uses have resulted in increasing levels of contamination of the air, water, and soil.

Accumulation of certain PFAS has also been shown through blood tests to occur in humans and animals. While the science surrounding potential health effects of bioaccumulation is developing, exposure to some types of PFAS have been associated with serious health effects.”

I’ll also just add here that PFAS have been found in dental floss, cosmetics (often from the packaging or because of cross contamination), “anti-fog” eyeglass sprays and wipes, and microwave popcorn bags.

It’s in this century that scientists are beginning to understand the impact of these chemicals and it’s pretty scary, especially since so much of it is still unknown.

PFAS are just one of the chemicals Alden will be discussing today that can be found on our clothing. So let’s jump right in…

Thank you so much to Mary Alice for such a great conversation! We recorded this very early in the morning here in Austin–that France/Texas time difference is rough–and it was the best possible way to start my day. You can find Alice Alexander (Mary Alice’s brand) on instagram as @alicealexanderco and at https://alicealexander.co/

We don’t talk about inflation much here on Clotheshorse (but if you want me to do that, just let me know because I’ve definitely done a ton of reading about it over past few months), but even if you’re not a deep economic nerd like myself, you certainly have noticed that things are more expensive now. Some of these price increases are related to demand exceeding supply (that’s some classic economics there). We see that with the price of used cars going up. There are less used cars available because less people have been buying new cars because of chip shortages (micro not potato). Yep, we need people to want to trade in their current cars for new cars in order to maintain a steady stream of used car inventory.

A lot of other things have gotten more expensive due to exponential cost increase for shipping. Some of my clients and friends have seen their costs to ship goods increase more than 80%. That’s a massive increase and not passing it on to the consumer is basically impossible. I’m seeing so many small businesses make the painful decision to raise prices to stay in business because they just can’t afford to cover those rising costs. At the same time, by raising their prices, they risk alienating customers. That could drive them out of business, too. It’s a really difficult time to be a small business owner.

There are also pandemic-related shortages in raw materials, factory space, energy, packaging…just everything really. And like the used car market, the demand for all of this is exceeding supply, so prices go up. That’s the classic rule of capitalism. And so, the prices go up for customers.

Some retailers and restaurants are blaming a rise in wages for their increased pricing…which really just succeeds in getting the working class to turn on one another, blaming one another for their struggles. But the reality is that most of the companies aren’t paying a living wage in the first place, and so if their claim that they are raising prices due to increasing wages is TRUE, then they have built an entire business plan that can only profit by exploiting and underpaying workers. As I say this you should envision the emoji with the hand on the chin, an emoji that I feel is an act of war. I suppose this is war. Don’t use that emoji with anyone you love.

In December 2021, Senator Elizabeth Warren wrote an open letter to the CEOs of Kroger, Publix, and Albertsons, asking them to justify raising food prices for American consumers while also paying out huge bonuses to executives.

“Large grocers are blaming high food costs on inflation, but it’s time to talk about how they’re using every opportunity to rake in profits, reward executives and big shareholders while driving up prices even more. These companies made record profits during the pandemic and when faced with the choice to retain lower prices for consumers, and properly protect and compensate their workers, they greedily granted massive payouts to top executives and investors. They need to answer for these actions,” said Senator Warren.

According to the Census Bureau’s monthly Retail Trade Report, in 2020 (a bad year for most businesses) the grocery industry saw an 11% sales increase over the previous year. That was an average of $63 billion each month. In a time where every other type of retailer was struggling, grocery was killing it. Think about it: restaurants were closed and people needed to buy even more food. According to Supermarket News, before the pandemic. 37% of adults ate breakfast at home every day, only 26% ate lunch at home and only 18% of families ate dinner at home every day. In other words, we ate most of our meals out before the pandemic. Suddenly everyone had to eat at home all the time. It was a boon for the supermarket industry! And that momentum continued through 2021 while many people continued to eat at home most of the time.

Going back to Senator Warren’s letter, “In 2020,Kroger reported $2.6 billion in profits, up 5.6% from 2019; Albertsons reported $1.89 billion in net income for 2020, an increase from $612.1 million in 2019, and Publix reported a 60% growth in profit for the third quarter of 2020.”

She goes on to write,”According to Publix’s public filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission, the higher sales from the COVID-19 pandemic

‘more than offset the additional costs incurred’ from the company’s rapid expansion to fill rising demand. Grocery chains supplemented the profits from rising demand with other cost-cutting

measures, in some cases depriving frontline workers of hazard pay or failing to adopt necessary

workplace safety precautions. In addition, large grocery chains also took advantage of consumers to increase their profits during the COVID-19 pandemic. A lawsuit filed in Texas alleged that 19 grocery stores, including Kroger Co. and Albertsons Companies Inc., participated in price gouging in the first months of the pandemic, nearly tripling the price of eggs during the state’s state of disaster in March 2020. Similarly, a class action lawsuit of Safeway customers alleged that their parent grocery chain Albertsons was responsible for inflating prices in California in violation of a state law preventing increases greater than 10 percent during a state of emergency.”

Instead of investing money in frontline workers and keeping prices more accessible to consumers, these chains opted to pay bigger executive bonuses (roughly tripling in most cases) and exceptional dividends to shareholders. For example:

At the end of 2020, Albertsons announced a $300 million stock buyback program.

Publix paid out an extra $70 million in dividends in the first three quarters of 2021

Albertsons CEO Vivek Sankaran’s bonus went from approximately $2.6 million in 2019 to over $4.3 million in 2020, nearly tripling his base salary of $1.5 billion

Still not outraged? In June of 2021, Kroger announced that it would be closing stores in cities that required $4/hour “hazard pay” for frontline workers, claiming that the grocery industry’s “razor thin” margins couldn’t cover it. Last June, Kroger announced a $1 billion stock buyback program.

Warren wrapped up her letter with this: “Your companies had a choice: they could have retained lower prices for consumers and properly protected and compensated their workers, or granted massive payouts to top executives and investors. It is disappointing that you chose not to put your customers and workers first.”

Warren requested info from these companies and we’ll see what happens next.

I’m telling you this story because it’s an example of “well, it’s just business.” JUST BUSINESS. The implication–similarly tossed out in other toxic systems–is that if you can’t handle “business,” then maybe you’re the problem, not the system, right? I’ve talked about the job I had with the HORRIBLE abusive “feminist”’ brand…the CEO there loved to say that if you were unhappy there, it was because you couldn’t “handle” startup life. It was YOUR problem, not the company’s toxic, no health insurance, no work/life balance culture. It certainly wasn’t working for someone who would bully and humiliate you at any moment in front of someone else. Nope, the problem was you because IT’S JUST BUSINESS.

I see “just business” tossed out all over the place as a way of defending the prioritization of profits over people. And as Mary Alice and I discussed, it’s often thrown out there as a defense by other working class people…people who are being impacted by the decisions of these companies. Surely all of these people are feeling the pain of increasing food costs. Would they jump in to defend the behavior of the big supermarket chains as “just business,” or does that only apply to the so-called “others” in the world, like garment workers, retail workers, teachers, etc?

In our conversation, I wondered aloud if being a billionaire involved a specific type of mental illness or personality disorder. And I didn’t say that to disparage or dismiss mental illness or those who cope with it every day. Mental illness does NOT equal “bad or dangerous person.” I myself have been dealing with bipolar disorder since my late teens. A significant chunk of the people I love and appreciate most are constantly struggling with getting their medication right or weaning off medication or trying to afford medication, hoping to find a therapist that can afford, trying to self treat themselves, and so on. What none of us are doing is closing ourselves off to the humanity around us in an effort to collect wealth. That seemingly insatiable desire for wealth reminded me of some of the feelings I’ve had when in the midst of some of my worst manic episodes, this need for something unnamed that I just can’t find.

Are billionaires a certain personality type? Suffering from a mental illness? Because certainly insatiable greed is a problem. We’ve all longed for things, money, security, love, dessert…but it turns into an illness when it’s never enough. Could that be what it means to be a billionaire?

In my pursuit of the answer, I stumbled across an article from Psychology Today called “Psychology’s ‘Dark Triad’ and the Billionaire Class: The super-rich aren’t the role models we need to advance the common good.” I’ll share that in the show notes because it’s worth a read. And since I’m definitely not an expert here, it’s better for you to get that info from someone who is. But here’s a quote from the article that summarizes it pretty well:

“Psychological research suggests that the super-rich, as a group, aren’t necessarily the role models we collectively need if our goal is to advance the common good and build a more decent society. In particular, one reason to be skeptical involves a constellation of interlinked personality traits — Machiavellianism, psychopathy, and narcissism — that psychologists call the ‘Dark Triad.’ The originators of the term summarize it this way: ‘To varying degrees, all three entail a socially malevolent character with behavior tendencies toward self-promotion, emotional coldness, duplicity, and aggressiveness.”’

The Dark Triad is often recognized in charismatic serial killers (think Ted Bundy) and internet trolls. It can be difficult to spot an individual who embodies the Dark Triad because they often have a very pleasant public face, but these characters tend to repeatedly lie, demonstrate a marked lack of empathy, and bully others to achieve their goals.

Wait…did I just describe “business” here? Which raises the question, why are we okay with a system that is built upon dishonesty, lack of empathy, and bullying? Not only are we okay with it, many people defend it to the end. Ask me how many nasty troll messages I’ve received about my statements on Amazon and Shein? Why would we ever fall on our sword for this kind of behavior? Going back to the grocery industry,

Kroger CEO Rodney McMullen said in an earnings call last summer, “Our business operates the best when inflation is about 3% to 4%. A little bit of inflation is always good in our business.” Why? Because they can easily pass the increased prices on to customers, raising them beyond what the company needs to maintain current profit levels. According to McMullen,”customers don’t overly react to that.”

It’s time to dismantle the expectation that business should operate without empathy and with a high level of dishonesty and greed. I always say that when it comes to big business “where there’s smoke, there’s fire.” If it’s a toxic corporate workplace, you can be assured that workers at every level from factories to warehouses to retail stores are being underpaid, overworked, and undervalued. If a company is raising prices on essentials like food just because it can (not because it needs to do so), then you can be guaranteed that company is also engaging in wasteful practices all in the name of profits. And it’s certainly underpaying its employees while overpaying its executives.

Listen, nothing will change without all of us being involved. We can sit around and wait for grocery stores to stop fleecing consumers. We can wait for retailers to stop polluting the planet and exploiting workers. We can wait for Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk to end global hunger and poverty. But they won’t. None of that will happen. The honor system has not worked. It turns out that both business and billionaires don’t deserve our trust. They deserve our oversight and our endless skepticism. They certainly don’t deserve access to our wallets. Don’t give your money to assholes and don’t give up fighting for what’s right. I think we are going to make a major impact this year and we’re going to do it together!