Episode 119: Understanding Your Own Personal Style, with Audrey (part II)

Hey, so my name is Yvette. And unlike a lot of people that I’ve heard leaving essays, I am not a small business owner. I’m not a creative, I do not sell vintage clothing. I am a career civil servant. However, while I would say all of the technical skills I needed to do my job I learned back in architecture school, all of the interpersonal skills that I have, and that I get complimented on all the time, in work settings, I gained through working retail jobs throughout my 20s. So this is going to be a relatively short tale of a time I quit my job. So I worked mostly in sort of small, like Mom and Pop type shops, small boutiques, I worked at a little natural food co op for a really long time. But I had never worked at a large chain until I was hired at Urban Outfitters. And I guess I can say that name, if not, please, you know, bleep it out if you need to. And I remember distinctly at the interview, one of the it was like this sort of weird group interview with like, there was kind layers of 10 of us. And they went around, and we had to answer questions in this group setting. And they asked what the last CD we had bought was, and that, I guess, should give you an idea of how old I am. Because nobody buys CDs anymore. But so I remember my answer, and it was Gang of Four, but I don’t remember what the CD was. But anyway, I remember the band, but not the album. Not important. Suddenly, I was hired. And I started on my first day. And like I said, I’d never ever worked in any type of chain before. And I had no idea what to expect. And there was no training whatsoever. They just threw me on the floor, like in this sort of back corner. And I was told to fold shirts. And I was just kind of left there for four hours. And then somebody came back and they were like, Okay, you can go to lunch now. And so I went to the break room, and I got my bag. And I walked out the door. And I walked into the French Quarter, and I never looked back. And that’s how I quit my job. After four hours at Urban Outfitters. I think I got a job at an art gallery after that, but I don’t remember To be honest, it was so long ago. But yeah, I worked retail him a long time. But I learned a lot of useful skills. So anyway, I just wanted to share my great resignation story from 15 years ago. Okay, thanks.

Hi, Amanda, this is Maggie calling from Boston. I am a longtime listener, and fan of the pod and a first time caller. And I’m calling because I was listening to the episode about the Clinique beauty counter and thinking a lot about waste in beauty packaging. And so this question is tangentially related, I was looking at one of the beauty websites that I or one of the beauty brands that I order my skincare products from, they were talking about sort of end of life of their products, and you know how you can recycle their packaging, and some of it is glass and you can just throw that in the recycling bin, but the other option was to send it back to them and have them TerraCycle it. And then I started thinking about TerraCycle a little more because you talked about Brita filters briefly on the pod. And I know that those are TerraCycle. I looked it up and it seemed like they had paused collection. On the Britta filters. I’m not sure why. And then the third thing that made me think about TerraCycle is I’ve seen like a marketing push for Parade underwear on my instagram at the moment and they have this campaign going where you can send in your old underwear for TerraCycling, and then get some sort of discount code on an order from them. You know, which having listened to your podcast long enough? I know that’s a marketing ploy. But anyway, I guess what I wanted to know is what happens to things when they’re TerraCycled? And what is TerraCycle’s kind of practice as a company because I had seen a few articles online suggesting that maybe things aren’t getting recycled to the extent that we think they are. And so I’m kind of just curious to know where those things go because they take things that are sort of notoriously hard to recycle. And obviously, you know, I’ve learned from you that even if things aren’t getting recycled properly, and having, you know, getting new lives through their program, that’s not a free pass to go out and buy as much new stuff as you want. But you know, it would be nice to know if they’re actually doing what they say. So, thank you so much. And keep doing what you’re doing. I love the podcast and have learned so much. It’s really changed me and my consumption habits. So thank you so much. Bye.

I’m going to go ahead and say that I’m like 99% certain that Maggie is talking about The Ordinary in this message and I say that because I use this product line almost religiously. I like the glass bottles, the product is affordable, it lasts a long time, and it really works. And compared to other skincare lines out there, The Ordinary has the most minimal and recyclable packaging. Most of the bottles are glass (I don’t buy any of the products in plastic bottles, but I know they exist), the boxes are simple cardboard, there’s no outer plastic wrap or inner plastic seal. No, this is not a commercial for The Ordinary.

This is a line I have used for years now. And while the packaging is better than most skincare brands, the plastic lids/droppers give me anxiety. Yes, I reuse some of them for other products and weird homemade concoctions, but the reality is I’ll never be able to reuse them all and I know that at best, they will be recycled once. Because that’s the reality of everything plastic in our lives. Even if it *is* recycled, it will only happen once and then it will end up in the landfill for centuries. Plastic–once a wonder material, and still our best option for many things like medical supplies and some kinds of food packaging–is actually a big, scary problem. Unlike aluminum and glass, which can be recycled over and over again, plastic can be recycled once, maybe twice AT MOST because the plastic fibers just degrade into uselessness. Someone ought to fix that, right? Well, that just hasn’t happened which leads me to believe it might not be possible.

So back to The Ordinary. I get why the lids are plastic. Honestly, I don’t know if a metal lid exists. A glass dropper would be incredibly fragile. I kinda think The Ordinary is doing the best that they can with what is available in the world right now. The Ordinary is aware that these items most likely cannot be tossed into your curbside recycling bins, so it offers an in-store recycling program in partnership with TerraCycle. That program is suspended right now due to the pandemic, but one can assume that it will return some day? Or maybe it won’t because…

TERRACYLE MIGHT NOT BE A GOOD SOLUTION (or a solution at all).

So let’s talk about TerraCycle: It was included in Time’s 2021 list of the world’s 100 most influential companies. And according to its own website “TerraCycle is Eliminating the Idea of Waste by recycling the ‘non-recyclable.’” It offers a “zero waste” service to consumers, who can request a box, fill it with the items that they can’t throw into their curbside recycling bins, and send it off to TerraCycle to be recycled…well, maybe recycled. We’ll get into that in a few moments. But TerraCycle is best known for its partnerships with large companies, recycling their bad packaging, from Britta filters to Swedish Fish wrappers, coffee pods, Entemann’s snack pouches, chip bags, cosmetics packaging, and of course, The Ordinary’s bottles, caps, and droppers. Often these kinds of items aren’t recyclable because they are made of a mixture of materials (like Britta filters) or their construction is surprisingly complex (chip bags are actually made of layers of different types of laminated plastic that are difficult to separate).

TerraCycle works with some of the biggest companies out there, like Kraft, Frito-Lay, Coca-Cola, Procter & Gamble, Late July Snacks, Gerber, L’Oreal, Tom’s of Maine, and Clorox, to recycle their “unrecyclable” packaging. Wow, what an incredible service, right?

Yet TerraCycle was included in an article from The Guardian called “Five sustainable boondoggles: greenwashing all the way to the bank.” The segment about TerraCycle was titled “Closed loop-de-loop? Rating: iffy at best.”

Last summer Alden Wicker (a name that comes up an awful lot here at Clotheshorse) wrote a great investigative piece for Vox called “This company claims to help the world’s biggest corporations recycle. Activists say it’s greenwashing.”). I will share this in the show notes and I urge you to read it ASAP. I’m not going to give away the entire article, but I want to share some high level findings (backed up by some other research I did by reading a lot of waste industry blogs):

Ostensibly TerraCycle is offering an incredible solution to a big environmental problem: packaging that just can’t be recycled. But really, no one exactly knows what TerraCycle is doing with all of that packaging. They aren’t very open about that. And furthermore, what TerraCycle is REALLY offering is the opportunity for big corporations to greenwash and sell more stuff. Feel bad about how much you love Flamin’ Hot Cheet-os but stress out about the plastic bag? Don’t worry…you can send it back to TerraCycle and they’ll fix it. Except, well you can’t. Most of the brand-specific recycling programs have a waiting list right now. You–the individual consumer–could request a $218 TerraCycle box for food wrappers–and fill it up with months worth of Cheet-os bags, send it off to TerraCycle, and feel as though you’ve done this amazing deed. The benefits of that? Well, Frito-Lay doesn’t have to come up with a more sustainable packaging option for Cheet-os and they also don’t have to worry about you no longer buying their products because you worry about the packaging. Because now Frito Lay has done the bare minimum to make you think they are a company that cares about the planet. You might even buy MORE Frito Lay products because you think they are such a socially responsible company!

The Last Beach Clean Up actually filed a lawsuit against TerraCycle in 2020, claiming that TerraCycle helps corporations“reap the rewards of portraying their products as recyclable while offering no corresponding benefit to the environment or to consumers concerned about sustainability.” The lawsuit was settled last year, with TerraCycle agreeing to update its labeling and messaging with clear language that there are limits to how much and what they can recycle. I suspect that is why so many of these brand specific recycling programs have been suspended or have endless waiting lists.

It’s important to add here that the majority of TerraCycle’s revenue (at this point) comes from these corporate partnerships, where companies are paying for the marketing benefits of that TerraCycle logo on their products.

Currently TerraCycle is actually recycling a tiny amount of US plastic waste. And even if the company could scale up to meet the demand for some of these items, would it make sense? For example, let’s talk about Taco Bell sauce packets. Yes, I have lost sleep here and there thinking about all of the Fire sauce packets in landfills right now. Last year (just in time for Earth Day), Taco Bell announced it was partnering with TerraCycle to recycle all its used hot sauce packets. Well, it turns out that even if only 60% of Taco Bell’s sauce packets were collected and sent to TerraCycle, it would produce 104,000 metric tons of carbon dioxide per year, roughly equal to the annual carbon emissions of 23,000 cars. Furthermore, the entire idea of that many sauce packets (more than 6 billion, if you were wondering) being collected is just a pipe dream. Because it’s just not going to happen. No one is going to do the work of driving around collecting these packets from customers. And you know what? They shouldn’t have to do that! Like why doesn’t Taco Bell offer pumps that dispense sauce inside their restaurants? Now that’s an easy way to make a big impact. But Taco Bell doesn’t do that?

Judith Enck, president of Beyond Plastics at Bennington College in Vermont and former EPA regional administrator under Obama, told Vox “I am a very dedicated recycler. I have never mailed TerraCycle anything. And I don’t plan to. On one hand, I want to say it’s well intentioned. But on the other hand, I think it gives excuses for large corporations to keep using plastics.” Many environmentalists argue (and I would agree here) that rather than paying for this amorphous, possibly untrue “recycling” service, companies should be spending that money on developing new, truly sustainable packaging options. Or rather than helping big corporate conglomerates greenwash, TerraCycle should be working with activists, consumers, and communities to rethink purchases and products. Here are some examples for how this could go better (and have real impact):

Instead of “recycling” Nespresso pods, encourage people to make coffee the old fashioned way or use reusable pods.

Rather than claiming to recycle the endless amount of packaging involved in an LOL Surprise toy, encourage consumers to skip those products and put pressure on toy companies to stop making so much dang quasi-disposable plastic packaging for toys.

Or how about eliminating the need for Britta filters in the first place by creating and leading programs that help people replace the pipes in their homes and ensure that public water systems provide safe, quality drinking water?

Or rather than charging consumers for “recycling boxes” as TerraCycle does, why not work with brands, retailers, and municipalities to implement a deposit system…when the customer buys an item, they pay a deposit, when they are done, they return the packaging to a special collection center and receive the deposit back. Oregon has been doing this with cans and bottles for years and you know what? Barely any of it ends up in curbside recycling because there’s always someone who wants that money.

The TL;DR of all of this is that TerraCycle is not a solution. And it’s not an environmental organization. It’s a for-profit company that is monetizing our eco anxiety, whether by selling us $200 boxes to throw our unrecyclable items in or giving big corporations an easy greenwashing message. TerraCycle is not here to make the planet better. It’s not truly solving the plastic crisis. TerraCycle offers everyone–corporations and consumers alike–a fantasy that we can continue living our lives the same way we always have and also solve the plastics crisis. That’s why greenwashing is successful. Change is required and it’s going to involve everyone, from big corporations to all of us. That’s a fact. If you’re listening to this podcast, you’re already working on those changes. Let’s get more of us involved! And who’s ready to start demanding that Taco Bell offer sauce pumps in their restaurants?

Once again, go read Alden Wicker’s article for Vox…it’s exhaustive, it’s infuriating, and it is SO WORTH the read.

Thanks again Maggie for asking such a great question! If you, yes YOU have a question for me, send it my way either via the Clotheshorse hotline or via email. You can find the details in the show notes.

So many of you reached out after the last episode to say how much you enjoyed meeting Audrey and that her advice and experience helped you feel more secure about your own style choices. That makes me so happy to hear! Let’s jump back into our conversation!

Amanda

A few things that came up during that conversation, which is first off this idea of the capsule wardrobe. I, you said something that I was like, yes, hell yeah, we were like, you know, this very idea of the capsule wardrobe is used sort of as a marketing message, you know, whether it’s by magazines or blogs or straight up by brands. And I was telling you, as we were preparing for this conversation, that some recurring theme I noticed when capsule wardrobe became a buzzword a few years ago. I would see the same scenario play out over and over again, on social media person says, I’m getting a capsule wardrobe, they go into closet, they purge 95% of it, right. They’re like selling stuff, donating stuff, we already see just all the stuff being there ridding themselves of it. And then they have to go buy a few pieces to fill that. And it makes me feel that there is a certain shopping habit associated with capsule wardrobe. Some of it is good, right? Because it’s like, okay, you’re buying things that you know, you’re going to wear a lot that you like, theoretically, I’ve also seen a lot of people, do the purge, do the shop, fail at the capsule wardrobe, and then go back to their old habits, right and have to replace everything. You know, we saw this happen even with everybody Marie Kondo-ing their homes before the pandemic. People then were like, Oh, shit, I don’t have anything in my house to be comfortable anymore. And they went and reball everything. So there can be a vicious cycle of consumption and waste associated with some of these ideas that have really hard and fast rules, like we’re saying, Oh, I can’t wear that, because I’m a banana shape. We probably shouldn’t say my capsule wardrobe has to be black. And then like a black and white striped shirt and pair of black pants. Because what your capsule wardrobe should be, is really things that you love, and they don’t have to fit anyone’s outline of what a capsule wardrobe is.

Audrey

Yes, I Yes, I have so many thoughts and feelings about all the things that you just said. First and foremost, let’s talk about the Marie Kondo bit for just a moment because this is something that comes up very frequently in my industry, because I am, in a way, a closet consultant, I’m doing some home organizing in the process of best serving my styling clients, right. And I guess I should also mention, part of what I do for my clients, when I take things away, well, I should say I take things away for them that no longer resonate, fit, etc. And I have a consignment store where I help pass those things along. So in some ways, my consignment business absolutely relies on people cleaning out. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have stuff to pass on to incoming shoppers. However, the goal in helping somebody clean out is to strategize to get clear on is this item helping or hurting. And I think that there is this misconception that like, if something is not beautiful, or like visually exciting, it doesn’t belong in your house, if you’re following the Marie Kondo method, right, like spark joy, a talk about a buzzword buzz phrase, because all of those things right? And has a romantic archetype. I’m all about those feelings. And those positive associations you have in your home should be your sanctuary, whatever that means for you. However, like you’re saying, we also have this social responsibility to not just pitch a bunch of crap overwhelm our thrift stores, which has totally happened, and then go back out and buy all that crap again, because now you have nothing. So there is this vicious cycle. And I will also say not to be totally nerdy, but certain style archetypes and personalities are going to interpret something like a Marie Kondo method and even a capsule wardrobe method really differently from one another. And I’m going to support clients in making safe and responsible decisions about what they let go of and what they hold on to, based on my knowledge of their archetype. So it’s like really all super connected, right? So when it comes to when it comes to capsule wardrobes, let me take a deep breath. That’s a heavy topic. So capsule wardrobes, from my opinion in in their essence, in their truest form. In the goals I believe Donna Karen had in sort of creating a easy to pair wardrobe. These are all good things right. Like I don’t think I mean obviously Donna Karen was a fashion designer who wants to sell her designs, but I really think that there is also this holistic hope of making life easier for her customers, I want you to wear the things that I’ve created, the designs that have, you know, come to me, I want them to live a life outside of your closet, all good things. However, I don’t even know exactly when it happened. But you’re right that suddenly, a capsule wardrobe became like, the only way to have a responsible wardrobe, or the only way to feel stylish and put together all the time. And they have, we have been trained, that they have very simple or basic color palettes. That typically, like you said, fall into like a gray scale, with maybe a pop of khaki, maybe red, I feel like I’ve seen red shoes, or a red bag, maybe a red blazer as like your one pop of color that, that you’ve been granted. You know, I say Navy already, like what we kind of think of when we think of the classic, like, let’s be honest, these are just again tried and true. And there’s nothing wrong with that. However, when you know who you are, you know, what styles make you feel alive, make you feel like it’s easier and more maybe even more exciting to get dressed. That’s when you can truly begin working towards a capsule. From my experience. As an experiment last fall, I created a visual representation of what a capsule wardrobe could look like, that was accurate for the season. So I live here in Pittsburgh, where it’s still so freaking cold.

And, and like we have a lot of fall foliage, but it gets really cold really fast in the fall. So I wanted to find things that were warm, but didn’t necessarily make me feel like a marshmallow in like end of September, right? So how do I get things that are functional and appropriate for where I live and where I spend my time. After doing my color analysis, I’m a deep autumn, which means I wear the darker, but also warm and rich colors of the color palette, and my style archetype which predominantly is romantic, and I also have a blend of cosmopolitan and creative that none of those things are going to resonate with what we see being suggested to us on Pinterest or again. And I think well meaning blogs, right? I want to give these bloggers some credit. They’re they’re trying to share something that maybe worked for them or has worked for friends and family or if they’re stylists, things that have worked for their clients. But again, like, it doesn’t work for me, it doesn’t work for my clients who are not classics. So I pulled either things that I actually own, or visual representations from online of things I would love to own. So maybe it’s outside of my means right now. But if I had this item on hand, how would I be utilizing it with the pieces that already exist? What sort of versatility and value does this add to my life to my wardrobe? How’s it going to make things easier? When I’m like, scrambling in the morning to get dressed and help my five year old daughter who’s a total fashionista and wants me to approve every outfit and accessory edition and all of our pets and like get out the door successfully. Right. And and I I wanted to show people, you don’t have to fit the mold to still respect and utilize the groundwork that a capsule does provide. Because at its core, that’s the first goal right utilization. And for us coming from a sustainability standpoint, utilizing your wardrobe is goals that that’s what we want. The most sustainable wardrobe is the one that you wear, period. I I care less about where you bought them. I mean, that’s a topic duh, but I care less about that part, and more about the fact that it’s actually put in rotation. I want you to wear the things you have purchased. Similarly to kind of like calling your whole wardrobe when you’re finally committing to that capsule mindset and lifestyle. The same thing happens when people really jump on the sustainability bandwagon, which like I want them to be here 100% But the first step to having a more sustainable wardrobe or home in general is not to trash everything and buy trash I mean not literally putting The trash like if you’ve Googled sustainability at all, if you’re here listening to this podcast, I know we all put things in the trash. But to let go of right, that’s not the first goal. That’s not what our aim should be. It should be to see how we can better utilize this in our space. And so if that means curating a capsule wardrobe around those things that you’ve already bought maybe from H&M or SHEIN, or blah, blah, blah, all those other places that we just so love to call out. That is a movement of sustainability, wearing the fast fashion that you’ve accidentally already purchased, is the best thing you can do for that garment.

Amanda

Totally, totally, you know, first off, I buy fast fashion clothes secondhand and where they’re here, and they need their love. And if they feel like they’re pretty well made are going to get, you know, get me somewhere and fit my aesthetic and fit my body. I’m not going to toss them aside. When I’m thrifting or secondhand shopping just because of the label inside.

Audrey

I’m so glad to hear that I feel the exact same way.

Amanda

Yeah when I hear people feel like say like, oh, thrifting is ruined now. There’s no good vintage left. I’m like, You’re right. A lot of vintage stuff isn’t at thrift stores anymore. But there is a plethora of clothing with so much oh my gosh, so many wears left in it. Yes. Like, do you need a sweater, go to the thrift store, you need a blazer, go to the thrift store. You need I actually almost all my pajamas are from the thrift store.

Audrey

I love that. Thanks for sharing that with me.

Amanda

Fun fact, one of the first sections I always go to. And so you know, I, I think that we unfortunately, you know, we just talked about how the capsule wardrobe and you know, fit archetypes, all that stuff have really just been marketing messages in so many ways to get us to buy some stuff. We know sustainability is too. And I see this still happening regularly on social media, where brands are using so called sustainability as the call to action to shop. And I was here as a buyer, where I was talking about what’s the call to action to come and buy this thing. You know, like, trust me, many people are sitting in meetings, creating the call to action that we get you to hit the Checkout button. Yeah, right. Like, is it the free shipping? Is it the like we’re running that we only have two units left? Is it the email that reminds you three days later? Is it that the sale is ending soon? That kind of stuff? A lot of brands are using sustainability in quotes as a call to action like, oh, you care about the planet, you’re a good person. The only way you can really show that is by buying this thing. It sounds preposterous when you say it out loud. But that is what is that play there? Yep. h&m, prime example of someone who is definitely not a sustainable company. Sure, there are plenty of people who work there who genuinely care. But unfortunately, their big sustainability push is a scam designed to save their business, which was failing for years. You know, it’s, it’s so like, I’m so cynical about it, because it’s just, it’s just so ugly to me that we would let retailers exploit people’s good intentions in a goodness, but that’s exactly what it is. And, you know, like, I’m just gonna say this, again, actually be of sustainable lifestyle involves a minimal amount of shopping. Because you use what you have until you can’t use it anymore, you know, and that’s, that’s not a great story for the retail industry. That’s not what they want to hear. So you’re like, Hey, how about instead, we sell you this brand new soap dish for your bar shampoo or something in your closet, when your bathroom throw out everything that’s in a plastic bottle come by this news zero packaging step from us. Hi, we’re target like, it’s just, yeah, it’s so frustrating. We’re humans, we want to buy things, but I promise we actually get pushed in manipulated into buying things a lot more often than we’re aware of.

Audrey

I think you’re totally right. And I will be the first to say that like on my platform that I specifically use to try to help some of my audience, particularly on Instagram that may not have the means to hire a stylist, whether it’s me or a different image consultant. I really feel strongly that everybody deserves to have awareness of what their personal style is, and support in exemplifying that bringing that to life. So I often try to share shopping suggestions or look books that might resonate with certain archetypes. And I know full well that some of the retailers that I ended up choosing. There’s room for improvement, right? But again, going back to the sincere hope that uh, that my average audience member is somebody who is looking to do the best they can and maybe she still needs to make a purchase with whatever budget makes sense for her lifestyle or her family or whatever. I’m in I try to do my best to send her in the right direction, so that she has the thing that she needs, while also encouraging her to really think hard. I don’t want you to click the link if it’s not actually something that is worthy of your closet that’s going to add value.

Amanda

Absolutely, yes. Agreed, like, yes, we’re gonna need new things. We just want to choose them more smartly. And choose things that are right for us. Exactly. What we’re being told is the right choice/

Audrey

Exactly.

Amanda

Okay, speaking of things that were being told, are not the right choice. I wanted to touch on skinny jeans, because this is something that comes up a lot. This whole idea of like skinny jeans being too baggy, being out of style, being embarrassing, like, so many people I’ve talked to were like, I literally finally found a pair of pants, a pair of pants I feel comfortable in and confident in and now being told I can’t wear them. And I’m like, no, no, wear

Audrey

your eye. Glad you brought this up. I literally was in a client’s closet with her on Tuesday morning, going through all kinds of awesome stuff. And she said to me, are skinny jeans out? Am I allowed to keep these things? Ah, it’s those rules. I know. Right? Yeah. And I mean, trust me, like this client. She’s a kick ass woman. She is a creative archetype. She is open to trying new things. She’s probably the first on the scene sometimes to do the weird, cool, different whatever. And like, her life has no rules yet here she is questioning these bullshit rules that we’ve been told right? And again, it hurts my heart. So I said, first of all, you keep what you like. Right? Like that. That is the whole goal of fashion therapy style therapy. You keep what you like, that makes you feel good. If you feel good in your skinny jeans, absolutely hang on to them. However, if they’re not the right fit, if they’re worn beyond repair, if there’s nothing I can do to advise you on tailoring or altering them. They’re just not it or point blank. They don’t resonate. That’s how we make the executive decision together to let them go. But if you’re being bullied by Gen Zers, on tick tock that you’re not allowed to wear skinny jeans anymore. You need to stand up to those children. You’re a grown ass woman.

Amanda

I mean, honestly, the retail industry has has been both mourning the loss of skinny jeans and also pushing all these other jeans on people and the hope of recapturing the magic communities because I know I’ve said this on the show before but like a you the average person cannot overestimate the sheer impact that skinny jeans had on retail especially fast fashion retail. Yep. In this century, because people certainly wore jeans before that, right? It’s always been the All American garment, but actually not that many people. And people didn’t wear them every day. And you saw even less of what I think of as the staple of the skinny jean, the black Jean right? It just wasn’t people wore pants, right? If they were pants at all. And so skinny jeans came in and suddenly they were like a hit. They grew and grew they added more and more elastin to them so they fit more and more bodies. They made them cheaper and cheaper to make people bought them and bought them and bought them and wore them every single day. It was their uniform. People of all archetypes get of all ages of all lifestyles. Everyone bought them. Everyone loved them. There was a different way to style them. Right. And as an added bonus, it also encouraged people to buy more tops. So it was like this is great for business. We’d rather sell everyone one pair of pants and five tops than just one dress and that’s that’s what was happening. You know, so then then, you know, they kind of peaked and then they began to decline and the retail industry was like shit, we don’t have a replacement. We pulled out we tried crap flare. Why leg highways slow waves bootcamp like Dave’s been cycling it back in to everyone and like, I remember for a while it was like no rigid denim but like that’s even harder for a lot of people to wear. And ultimately, the denim industry took a hit. At the same time it was also being really hurt by the rise of athleisure sort of stepped in to take the place of skinny jeans for a lot of people like you know, yoga pants, right, leggings. And I, I just, I’m glad that we’re not making tons of jeans that are people are throwing out that don’t do that don’t decompose. That’s great. But like, at the same time, if you love skinny jeans, just wear them. Otherwise, you’re gonna keep buying other jeans that you don’t wear. And they’re just gonna sit there and then they’re gonna go to the goodwill. Yeah, we hate that you what you like, yeah, people like people love if you love skinny jeans, you love skinny jeans, and your whole wardrobe. The shoes you wear everything is based on jeans, right? That’s fine, be you.

Audrey

Yes, yes, I totally agree with you, like everybody, everybody who’s listening, Amanda and I both support you wearing your skinny jeans until you no longer can. And I know I’m the proud owner of many pairs of skinny jeans that have gotten me through some seriously hard times. They always feel good on my body. And like you said, I mean, when you do have a variety of tops, they totally go with your jeans. And they’re like, for me an almost year round item that I can change up and down depending on what I’m wearing them to. However, from a styling standpoint, if they don’t resonate, or if you want to try something different, let’s find a way to do that in a way that is going to feel authentic in a way that’s budget friendly while being as responsible as we can be. So if we can Thrift, let’s freaking thrift. And let’s figure out which new to use silhouette you want to try. That’s going to align with the rest of your wardrobe or with your archetype with your lifestyle. I know for me like a cropped flare, it took me a little while to get on that bandwagon. But once I finally did, it was like a homecoming. I was like, oh my god, this is a silhouette. When I need something different than a skinny jean, that totally makes me feel creative and still put together. I can wear a cool funky shoe with it. And a more simple top. But like this is this is my statement. I’m trying something that other people may not really love to wear. Let’s figure out what that looks like for you. Within reason. You should feel free to be experimental, and expressive and playful in whatever ways feel right for you. But that doesn’t mean you should feel pressured to like suddenly fake that willingness to try something new. Simply because you’re being sold the idea that you can’t do this anymore. No more rules and regulations. No more.

Amanda

Yeah, do what’s right for you. I mean, I was thinking as you’re talking I was thinking about when my daughter Dylan was in second grade, they came home from school and we’re like, hey, everyone at school is getting highlights. I want to get highlights to Okay, first off, that is so young for highlights. Take that discussion off the table. But I remember thinking like, oh man, when I was a kid, I was so sucked into what everybody else was doing. And like, you know how it really makes every decision you make so stressful when you’re a kid. And then I was like, Wait a minute. It’s the same. We’re all living in that same way even now. Like if you’re if you feel pressured to get rid of your skinny jeans that you love. It’s the same as being in second grade and asking for highlights. Yep, because everyone else had them just do if you want highlights that badly get them

Audrey

absolutely and, and find a hairstylist who understands the undertones in your hair color, so she can match that blonde perfectly to you.

Amanda

If you have a seven year old child please for the love of God don’t take them to get highlights because then it means all the other moms at school have to do the same thing. Just think of us. Please. So stressful. I know I was I was like what is happening in this world. Now we get elementary school kids highlights. I mean, listen. To be fair, I started getting perms in my hair in kindergarten because I loved the musical Annie. I wanted curly hair like Gabby and definitely my grandma. My mom should have said no like go like tiny child is getting a perm but instead my grandma was like sure and so I started getting perms all the time. At my grandma’s like old lady hair salon like like little tiny person with the perming rods in sitting there listening to them all talk about Matlock or whatever I don’t know…

Audrey

That smell that burns the inside of your nose. To set the curl I feel like we’re we lived parallel lives somehow because same visiting my grandmother and my great grandmother in like deep south Florida. I was like I was pressing earned by the old ladies at the beauty parlor to get my hair curled so I could look like Shirley Temple.

Amanda

Yes, Listen, guys, we were all getting perms all the time. So it to be fair, I guess if you want to get your second year, your second grader highlights, it’s fine. It just it really puts the pressure in all the other parents. So I’m sure I started some trends with Dylan that ruined every mom’s life. We’re all part we’re all in this together. Yeah. Okay, so the last thing I have been talking to everybody about and I know you have thoughts on is how we can make slow fashion better because you we’ve talked about how we’re being sold. We’re being sold a lot of these ideas to sell us stuff. But slow fashion really is a way of life that should be accessible to everyone.

Audrey

Yeah, I totally agree with you. So I don’t feel like I have all the answers. And in in my style and fashion related career path. I have mostly been on the customer facing side of things, right. So I don’t have a lot of experience with what production and even design looks like. But through sort of being in the same world, what I feel like has happened with a lot of the slow fashion or sustainably minded movement is we have sort of this like homogenous look, or again, aesthetic of what that means what what does that translate to, as far as retail goes. So what does a sustainable style or closet look like? And sometimes, at least for me, as somebody who doesn’t have a natural style archetype, it feels like kind of crunchy granola. And there’s nothing wrong with that, if that’s authentic to you, I want you to dress that way. But for me, personally, it doesn’t resonate, it doesn’t make me feel like me. And I would love I think there are already strides being made. But I would love to see continued development in slow style that suits are all styles. So fashion that suits all styles. Obviously, we also need to really prioritize size inclusivity. And those things need to go hand in hand, you can have any type of personal style, no matter what your body shape and size look like. Are there going to be proportions or things in our clothing that might make us look and feel more balanced? Totally. But style comes in all shapes and sizes. And I know that we just don’t quite have that yet. In a slow fashion movement.

Amanda

Yeah, yeah, we have a long way to go. Right. I think unfortunately, slow fashion rather than being a movement for and by the people. It has been dominated by brands by companies. And it’s not a diverse aesthetic. No, the sizing snap there. I was talking to another friend recently about how you know, we’re kind of getting fed up with like, it’s a small business, like we can’t afford to add bigger sizes. Because one, I see makers who are literally one person all over Instagram, dressing as many people as they can, yep, regardless of size. And to a lot of these, like there’s one I’m just gonna say them. Their name is Wulven W O LVN. Reason I’m constantly getting their ads and filled with rage because their models couldn’t be skinnier. Their influencers couldn’t be skinnier, I had to scroll back like four months to find one person who wasn’t a size zero. And I know a few people in the community have reached out to them in the past, ask them about their sizing and they’ve gotten some really like snotty responses, oh, brands like that are taking investment money. Like they’re literally drafting up a p&l. And I saved a sales plan and creating a deck and going out to investors to ask for money. I’ve done this at other jobs I’ve had, this is how it works. They could be budgeting, extended sizing, and the infrastructure required to get there into that budget and no one would bat an eyelash they are consciously making that decision not to yep, I and so I completely understand that excuse. Yeah, I no longer accept that excuse from people. Um, I think that you know, it’s just up to us as the community to take take slow fashion back, you know,

Audrey

I totally get that.

Amanda

And get into the slow fashion movement.

Audrey

I totally agree with that. And I, how do you do you consider shopping secondhand to be part of this movement? Or do you sort of group it separately? What are your thoughts? I think it’s the cornerstone Okay, that’s how I feel to and so I think that you know, while I know so many, especially local are very, very small chain thrift or secondhand vintage shops, etc. Like, they’re not going to have the budgets that like Maybe a goodwill might. But I think that there are these things we can all collectively be asking for and expecting and secondhand retail shops to make it easier for me to make a purchase there, whether it’s for myself or for a client or my daughter, like I love to thrift for my little girl. But when, when it’s really hard to find the size I’m looking for, or items are constantly being put back in the wrong spot. And there’s really not enough people to like, maintain the storefront. It’s difficult. So then maybe somebody or especially if you don’t have good thrift shops in your area, people are going to be turning to online options such as like Mercari, Depop, Poshmark, which I love. I love that those things exist. And of course, the OG eBay and Etsy like I can’t forget about about those guys, you’ve been with us a long time. But and of course, the conglomerate that is thread up, I love the heart that I interpret to be behind thread up, right. But you and I have talked about this privately, it just doesn’t function the way we hope it would. And when we are not as as employers in the retail space, and I group myself in here, when we are not investing in educating the team members who are responsible for our Econ department, we are doing a huge disservice to the sustainability movement and the customers who want to be a part of it, when they can’t find what they’re looking for. When we have it, but it’s mislabeled. We have it but it was, um, I see this on thredUP a lot. It’s a skirt that’s on the mannequin as a tube top. This is a time for rules and regulations.

Amanda

I mean, listen, like I I share similar frustrations with thredUP. I know people who have great luck there as well. But like I’ll, you know, search by size and something will come up and I’ll be like, Okay, well, the tag on this says and this is a brand I know I wear. I’m a medium there or whatever. Yeah, and I look at my measurements, and it’ll be like waist measurement. 11 inches. And I’m like, wait. Yeah, so we’re on here, right? And I, as far as I can tell, because I’ve been people are always like, do an episode on thread up to an episode on thread up. And I’m like, listen, I would love to, unfortunately, they keep all their information locked down. Yeah. But what I have gleaned by reading pages and pages and pages of their Glassdoor reviews, is that, you know, they, what they’re offering is a really challenging concept. Yes, like, someone’s sorting through every single thing. You know, measuring, sorting, sorting it by brand, sending it off to be shot, then someone’s got to type up all the information and launch it on the website. This is like so many people and so much time to just even go through one box from a person and get that product live. And it seems that they are you know, they’re setting it’s so classic. If you’ve ever taken venture capital, you are pushing for maximum sales growth all the time, it seems that they are pushing for that, while not having the infrastructure of staff beneath it to support that. And so they have these really high targets in terms of the number of things they have to sort per hour steam per hour photograph for our launch by hour, all of that and stuff is just falling through the cracks. It’s it’s just too much. And so I think that they are kind of setting themselves up for this failure by not investing in people. Yeah, and instead, you know, making as my dad would say, writing a check their ass can’t cash. We’re gonna sell nine zillion garments, and we’re gonna make a 100 gazillion dollars this year. But we’re gonna use the same staff that we did when we were only making one gazillion. And that’s just in startup life. That’s where it bites you in the bud at some point. So I love the idea of thread up I guess that’s why I tend to focus more on things like Poshmark and Depop, and Etsy and eBay, because I can it’s a person who has is not trying to launch 1000 styles a day and is able to you know give you information and take their time and also then my money goes directly to a person which I love but I can’t emphasize enough that second hand to me is the most important important part of sustainability. It is not buying new fancy, organic hemp locally made clothing if you can do that, and you’re going to wear it for a long time absolutely do it yep but don’t feel like that’s the route you have to go because thrifting shopping secondhand sharing clothes, getting you know swapping on your local Buy Nothing group are all these other ways in which you can practice a sustainable lifestyle mending those clothes washing them carefully. All of this is the important part of it.

Audrey

We’re in full alignment here. And as somebody who, you know, grew up with pretty limited means in Austin. And, you know, thrifting was really kind of like my, it’s kind of my only option for like finding clothes that felt unique to me, and like, cool and different and expressive, and have the affordability to experiment. As a young person, I’m even talking like elementary age to discover what is my style, like thrifting will always have a huge place in my heart. And as somebody who owns a consignment boutique, my hope is that we are able to continue normalizing shopping secondhand, and in all realms, and by what I mean, what I mean by that is all types of second hand retailers. So whether that’s something higher end and more targeted, like fashion file, or something luxury oriented, like the real real, or we’re actually going to like our local Goodwill bins and digging through and, you know, finding this special random, crazy finds, I want people to feel included in this movement, and to feel like they have an opportunity to save some money, save the environment and find something new that sparks joy in their wardrobe. Yeah, and I totally agree with you. And you know, I am a small business owner, my business is real small. And we’re lucky that this store has made it through the pandemic thus far. quick anecdote, I opened a brick and mortar in November of 2019. In Pittsburgh. When it’s snowing all the goddamn time, nobody wants to cross a bridge or go through a tunnel to come to Verona. And then we all know what happened after that. But my my ongoing goal is to continue to further educate myself about sizing brand awareness, how certain things are made. Who is this targeting? How can I best style this to a larger demographic, a wider demographic? And how can I pass that knowledge and expertise and willingness to learn to my staff, so they can be ambassadors of a super cool, sustainably oriented store to help people who maybe are not like the thrift store, shoppers like we are still feel like they can partake, they can learn what it’s like to kind of hunt. Lots of times people who come to shop at found have never been thrifting before. And this is sort of like the gateway where it feels like boutique II, you’ve got a sales associate who knows their shit and wants to help you. And maybe that inspires her to start shopping secondhand further, no matter what that looks like, thread up or otherwise. But you’re right, it comes down to investing in your people. And really product knowledge. How, how can I style this? What can I do with it? We know sizes, garbage, and there’s like no standardization and hasn’t been standardization in a very, very long time. So how can my team and myself know at a glance what size human this actually works for?

Amanda

Ah, yeah, yeah, challenge, right. Yeah. Especially

Audrey

if you’re somebody who’s not particularly Style Savvy, you don’t necessarily have a ton of experience in the realm of fashion, etc. Let’s say you go out on your own and you’re like, I’m gonna go to Goodwill today, and I’m going to learn how to thrift. I know I wear a size large, I’m looking for some blazers and some skinny jeans. Well, you go and you pull, like, you know, the five star size large blazers that most resonated with you at the shop. If the dressing rooms are even open and you have an opportunity to try them on half of them are not going to fit point blank. Whereas if you have some guidance, and you’ve had a coach or cheerleader who has been like, hey, J Crew is actually fairly consistent in their sizing you can count on them. When you’re a size 12 blazer, it’s gonna fit in almost every cut they make if you’re shopping secondhand, check out that label hunt for that. They worked really well for your archetype and body shape. But like nobody, like an average person doesn’t know that.

Amanda

Mm hmm. Yeah, no, it’s true. It’s true. I for a while I had this idea that I was going to like buy like 100 tape measures and send them out like as a contest as a giveaway on Instagram because like it’s kind of the most valuable thing you can have with you. We have a second hand shopping whether it’s in real life or at home, your computer on your phone, like measure yourself, measure a car Aren’t you like the similar measure what’s in front of you at the thrift store? Like I, every hardcore vintage shopper I know is like always has a tape measure in their purse? Yes. And I cannot recommend enough that everyone should carry one. So yeah, I was like, Okay, I’m gonna, you’re gonna get tape measures and send them out to people. But then I, I got in my head because I was like, these are plastic and what if people, I’m obviously not going to be able to get like some ethical sustainable tape measure, it literally doesn’t exist. So then people are gonna be mad at me on the internet. I’m just gonna skip this idea. Maybe I’ll come back to it at some point. But if you’re listening to this, if you don’t have at least one tape measure, like for your body, not the kind you measure a room with, in your possession, get one right now it’s gonna make, you’re going to be disappointed significantly less often. And that’s, that’s reason enough to have one.

Audrey

I completely agree with you. I think that it’s all connected, right? Like having this understanding of style, as we’ve talked about. And wardrobe needs is just as important as understanding your body, and how your body has actually nothing to do with the size tag in the garment you may be considering and understanding what your measurements are, what you’re actually supposed to be measuring, right? And how to get an accurate idea of the size, the numbers have your own shape, and then how that’s going to feel differently, depending on the blend or the textile that you’re shopping that you’re looking at. Because again, like let’s say going back to thrifting we’re looking for that really cool blazer right? And we know where size 12. Our stylist Audrey said to look for J Crew, but I just didn’t find it at Goodwill today. So I found some other really cool Blazers I had my measurement with or I know what my measurements are. I brought my her paper measuring tapes by the way that we might do. Yeah. So we can consider that I would love to partner with you on this adventure. I’ve been the responsible, informed shopper. I’ve measured the Blazers, and they actually have the same exact measurements. But when I put them on, why do they feel so different? Right? There are a what feels like so many roadblocks to trying to do the right.

Amanda

Yeah, it’s true. It’s really really hard. Right? I like I mean, we’ve had a Meredith onto the past to talk about that. And I think actually, I’m gonna have her back again, because it’s, it’s just not fair. Right? She went down and shopping this week and was posting videos of like, here I am trying on the same size and every single store and like oh, and this one I could put like a whole loaf of bread in the back in the waste of my body. Like all these classic just, we’ve all had this with all the things we shop and yeah, actually, the industry doesn’t set us up for success there is there are no, you know, like there are federal laws around what a gallon of gas is what a pound. And literally, there is a government agency that monitors that and finds people Yeah, or being like, Oh, you actually only gave some 1.95 gallons of gas, your gas stations getting fine. When it comes to size, everyone’s like yeah, whatever, just like do what you want. And unfortunately, like what we’ve learned is that you can’t trust any big company to ever do what’s right, they’re always going to do its cheapest, fastest, easiest. And that’s why we ended up with like the same blazer from the same brand coming in like 17 different versions, looking the same on the outside and I even man, we were talking about skinny jeans, it was coming back to me all the jeans, I worked for a big fast fashion retailer that sold a shit ton of skinny jeans, a lot of black ones. And I would periodically just buy a new pair of black skinny jeans and pair them until they they fell apart which wouldn’t be that far in the future because these were not good quality. And I would buy a brand new pair like just like order it like oh, this is the size of the last one and then I’ll get this one and like suddenly my foot didn’t feel like it went through the hole. Or these were just a little longer on the crotch or the fabric was just different enough to make it not sit in the same way on my body or the pockets were in a slightly different position. And it wasn’t because they were like we’re going to innovate we’re going to keep making these jeans better. It was because they weren’t QA to see if the factories were sewing them the same way using the same fabric. They were just reordering them. Yeah, constantly. And then the factories were outsourcing to other factories that hadn’t sewn those jeans before and we’re just making their best guess. And that’s how all this stuff happened. So unfortunately, it’s always going to be a little bit hard. I mean, until we get these laws around size, which I think are probably low on the priority list for a lot of people but

Audrey

yeah, but like let’s You got it? Yeah, exactly.

Amanda

And you know what I, I love when I see people talking about how, like a cult brand has terrible fit, like, there’s this brand selkie which I knew you’re gonna say that very romantic, very showstopping brand for sure. Yes, there. It is straight up garbage. Yes. It makes no sense. That’s so funny that you said that inconsistent all over the place like in terms of like, you can’t be like, Oh, I bought that dress before and this size. Surely this one will work? No, I heard people talking about like, this one was six inches shorter. I couldn’t get my arm. So armhole. Or, like, everywhere else, I shop them a size small. But here I’m an extra large like, like, none of it makes any sense. I see coming up a lot on Reddit and Instagram. And I’m like, yeah, why is that? Okay?

Audrey

And it’s totally not. Yes, I’m with you. Right like where so where we’re at right now, the best thing to do is to inform ourselves and give ourselves the the tools that that should lead to success. Knowing that sometimes it’s just not going to and that is not a reflection on us. And also being very vocal about demanding change. Because we both probably have experienced this. There is this like, we’re trying to break up with the feelings we might have associated with changing size, right, like whether that means our bodies physically changed size and form. Or we are vacillating between sizes between different brands, because there’s no fucking regulation or reason behind size charts. And like all of the production things that you just mentioned. So we’ve got to figure out a way to, to demand change, because it impacts the well being and mental health of all people. When when we have as a society puts so much emphasis on looking a certain way, weighing a certain number being built to, you know, again, achieve like the hourglass or the the slim body shape, whatever it is, whatever the body shape detour may be, when we are not that we are hurting. And we’ve got to figure out a way to regulate manufacturing, sizing standards, educate consumers on how to find their own best fit. And also acknowledge that diversity is key, it is a fundamental part of moving forward as a whole.

Amanda

Totally, totally. And just like community, like I think, when I love when people are really plotted on the internet, like this thing fits like shit, here’s what you should know, here’s how it fit me. Here’s what my size usually is at these places, like, share that information with other people. I love a review. Yeah, I think it’s really helpful for helping me make decisions about fit. When I was working at ModCloth, we were probably one of the first retailers at that point that really utilized reviews, both for our own education as buyers, but also for our customers. And we had this just thriving community of people who would be really straightforward and blunt about how something or did or did not fit post photos. Everybody was using that as customers make better decisions. But even we, as buyers would say like, Hey, we can’t reorder this, because it’s not it doesn’t have good reviews. People say it makes their boobs flat or their arm, they can’t move their arms, like we need to talk to the vendor about this. We need to reevaluate our relationship with this brand going forward. And I I think that even if you feel like Oh, I’m just one drop in this ocean of people buying stuff out there and living, you make an impact by sharing your experience.

Audrey

Absolutely. Absolutely. And just that just that process, right of like being told how much your voice matters is fundamental. And having the awareness that like we’re all in this together, we have all felt to the impact of these things that we’re discussing. That that is part of community, right of being like, Okay, well, at least I’m not alone anymore. I don’t feel so alone. It’s not my fault that this didn’t fit. So those reviews that feedback, those call outs, positive and negative are all so important. And I really, really hope that they they are a catalyst to serious positive changes in this industry.

Amanda

Yeah, I love that. I agree. I hope so too. I believe it. Yeah, I’ve seen what we can already. We’ve done already. And I think it’s all just just beginning. I think so too. Oh, thank you so much, Audrey. This was so fun.

Audrey

Right back at you. I’m honored. I’m so glad we got to talk today.

Thanks again to Audrey for spending so much time with me! I’m going to share all of the places you can find her in the show notes. Go check them out! I’m also going to share a link to her Sustainable Shopping Guide by Style Archetype which is so helpful for trying to figure out your own look!

One important mission that I’m on here at Clotheshorse is untangling our own relationships with our style, ourselves…and how that can lead to overconsumption, so called “retail therapy,” and a closet full of stuff that we don’t really like. As I said in the last episode, “Fashion thrives on the feeling of being left out.” Our own insecurities about our taste, bodies, class, etc can make us particularly vulnerable to bad clothes and trends. That’s one of the reasons community is so important to me. Not only do we need a critical mass of people to make significant change in the world, but finding your niche, finding a place that supports you being YOU will do wonders for your relationship with stuff and shopping. When I think of how I felt more than two years ago, when I was working for a big fast fashion company….well, I felt like shit. Even though I was really, really good at my job. Even though I spent so much time training and developing my team, teaching them everything I knew. Even though I had a great eye for product and strong personal style…even though I was and am super fucking smart… I could see that my coworkers felt like I was old, fat, had imperfect teeth, and therefore, had less value as a person. I could feel that I was surrounded by a bunch of wealthy, incredibly privileged people and I would never fit in there. And so I was shopping a lot (and btw, I actually hate shopping). I figured if I dressed enough…something? Then I would fit in or at least be respected. That maybe people wouldn’t talk behind my back. Or they would think I was worthy of being there. Every morning Dustin would have to give me a pep talk as he drove me to work…oh yeah, that was the other thing…even though I was perfectly capable of getting myself to work, I had Dustin take me because I needed every moment of positive interaction I could get in order to get myself ready to make it through a day. It was such a dark time for me, even if it all looked good on instagram. Nothing I bought ever made me feel better or more worthy.

Fast forward to now where I’m like “guess what? I’m great, my style is great, I’m surrounded by all of these rad people (that’s all of you)” and now I don’t need a bunch of new clothes to make me feel better. I’m just being myself. That’s the power of community, of support, of finding your spot. It’s been radically transformative for me and I want the same for everyone. I want to stand outside with a huge sign that reads WELCOME TO THE CLOTHESHORSE COMMUNITY, EVERYONE IS WELCOME. I want everyone to join us. So we can all feel as good as I feel and we can fight the good fight together.

Thanks for listening to another episode of Clotheshorse!