Episode 137: Carbon Offsets & Other Scams, with Jenise of Thuja

Welcome to Clotheshorse, the podcast that dreamed a few nights ago of painting a huge billboard that just said “greenwashing” in ITC Bookman with Swash. It was a VERY stressful dream because there was paint dripping everywhere and I was frantically trying to clean it up with an old newspaper that I found on the side of the road.

I’m your host, Amanda and this is episode 137. And of course we must be talking about greenwashing today if I’ve been dreaming about it. Although to be fair, Clotheshorse has found its way into a lot of my dreams over the past few years, including one where I confronted a troll named Helen, ultimately throwing an iced coffee on her purse.

Fortunately for you this episode is not about dreams, even though I personally find hearing other people’s dreams fascinating.

Today’s special guest is Jenise, co-founder of Thuja, a platform where individuals can compare sustainable companies and save on them, and where every purchase supports targeted conservation efforts. Thuja is in start up mode right and has just launched a crowdfunding campaign. I’ll have more information about that at the end of this episode. Today we will be talking about why Jenise is passionate about educating others about the scourge of greenwashing and ideas for ways we can make better decisions in our own day-to-day lives. We’ll also talk about some of our least favorite greenwashers and greenwashing techniques, like carbon offset and tree planting campaigns.

Before we jump into that conversation, I wanted to talk a little bit about the role fashion media plays in not only promoting and perpetuating greenwashing claims, it also legitimizing them and turning them into “facts” by repeating them over and over again.

The recent Saint Laurent fashion show in Morocco is a great example. Ostensibly this show…which occurred in the desert near Marrakech, Morocco was “carbon neutral”. The fashion media LOVED this story, repeating time and time again how the event was carbon neutral and groundbreaking in its conservation efforts. And in some regards, sure, it was a lot more focused on its impacts than other shows. All the non potable water used in the event was used to irrigate olive crops. Excess textiles were donated to local craftswomen to turn into rugs. Equipment was rented when possible. But ultimately what made this event–which involved flying models, staff, equipment, clothing, makeup, audience members, and of course the fashion media itself to Morocco–what made it “carbon neutral” was that Saint Laurent had purchased carbon offsets.

None of the fawning articles I read about this event mentioned that “carbon neutral” does not equal “no environmental impact.” The flights still happened. The trucks and shipping still used fuel. And energy was used to light the event, provide music, etc. This was not an impactless event.

To be clear, buying carbon offset credits neither cancels out the climate impact nor reduces it. Often the revenue driven by these credits is used to fund programs like tree planting, etc that may not have much value.

In fact, using carbon offsets has two major (and valid) criticisms:

Carbon offset credits are not actual greenhouse gas mitigation. Instead they are a substitute for real climate action. Often this illusion of canceling out the carbon impact of an event, company, or industry actually makes climate change worse by obscuring the true greenhouse gas emissions and energy usage.

Carbon offset projects tend to be pretty dubious in their impact and even harm local communities and make environmental problems worse. Many of these projects have been shown to be wasteful of money, disrespectful towards local communities and cultures, and pretty pointless. According to Greenpeace, “Offset schemes often exclude local and Indigenous Peoples from land management practises that allow them to grow food and preserve biodiversity.” Overall carbon offset projects are notoriously scammy. For example, back in 2010, the Vatican learned that the million+ trees it had paid to plant as part of a carbon offset program…had never existed.

Ultimately carbon offset programs really just allow us to pretend that everything will be okay without any serious changes from industries, governments, and even us. And in the same way that making leggings out of plastic bottles might make us reach for bottled water (feeling as if the problem of plastic waste as been solved), carbon offset programs lead to a sense that everything with climate change is under control.

But back to this Saint Laurent show, none of the press I read about it mentioned the dodginess of carbon offset programs. No one said “oh hey but btw, carbon neutral does not equal zero impact.” And no one raised the idea that maybe it would be better from an environmental perspective to do a virtual show, without airplanes, trucks, flaming rings, etc..or at the very least, just do the show in Paris as usual.

Instead each piece praised Saint Laurent as visionary, as groundbreaking, a leader in the space of sustainability, blah blah blah. And this is par for the course when it comes to sustainability and fashion. Often a narrative and some key press release quotes will be played over and over again, in article after article…until these quotes and the brand’s agenda become fact, or at the very least, the only thing the general public can find in the first 5,10, or even 20 pages of google search results….essentially rendering it as fact.

And to be clear, this repetition of greenwashing claims until they become fact is a part of all fashion reporting, even outside of standard fashion publications.

A 2021 Rolling Stone article eye-rollingly called “Upgrade Your Eco-Cool Wardrobe with These Sustainable Clothing Brands,” included greenwashing all-stars All Birds and Alternative Apparel.

A 2016 piece from ABC News called “How Sustainable Brands Are Turning Their Backs on Fast Fashion Trend” called out ASOS and it s “eco edit” options as a great resource. We know that ASOS is a mega fast fashion brand!

And across the internet, Madewell, Nike, H&M, Everlane, Levi’s, Athleta, Free People…and on and on…have been called out for their “sustainability.” We know otherwise, but the average shopper does not know.

This phenomenon of legitimizing greenwashing happens for two major reasons:

Lots and lots of clicks. “Sustainability” and “sustainable fashion” are great search terms that drive major traffic to news and media sites. And this type of content has major appeal to many, many readers because it allows consumers to have the illusion that the world can be saved without any major changes from us, the delusion that we can shop our way to a better world.

Next, money money money. Often this kind of digital content includes affiliate links, meaning that if you click on the link in the article to the allegedly sustainable product or brand and you buy something…the media platform gets a cut of the sales. This is BIG BUSINESS. A few years ago, when I was working at the horrible feminist brand, we found that Refinery 29 no longer wanted to do posts about us because we couldn’t drive enough affiliate dollars for them. A writer there told us that they were being pushed by upper management to hit a specific financial threshold for each piece they wrote. Other media outlets–like Forbes and USA Today–straight up get paid to include brands on lists of sustainable brands or visionary start ups, etc. The 30 under 30 features on Forbes? Paid for by the 30 people featured! And of course, all of these blogs, magazines, and platforms rely on advertising money–from the same big brands they are covering–to pay the bills!

Yep, it’s hard to parse out what is real or fiction when it comes to greenwashing. But I think it can be a little bit easier for us if we know how to go about finding information. Platforms like Good on You, Fashion Revolution, and Jenise’s project Thuja are a good start. But also just revisiting HOW we ask the internet to verify information can help a lot too.

No matter what you are asking, scroll past the first few search results. For example, I searched “Free People sustainable” and the first result was some dumb Free People “sustainable” product collection. But I kept scrolling and clicking and I encountered content from Good on You. I also found kinda ambiguous content from something called The Sustainable Living Guide.

I always recommend starting with the name of the brand, fabric, collection, or certification/group and adding “greenwashing” to the end. That gets you to an answer fast. I googled “Free People greenwashing” and I found article after article from Good on You, Remake, and a blazingly good piece from Zeitgeist called “The 15 Worst Fast Fashion Brands to Avoid in 2021.”

It’s important for us to be skeptical of any huge environmental win associated with clothing and big fashion brands, especially when it’s coming from the fashion media, who has a lot of money on the line and relies on big brands for its livelihood.

And when you realize how much nonsense all of this greenwashing reporting is, it makes you question all of the other things you’ve been told by fashion media over the years, from “dressing for your body type” to “the shoes you must have this season.” Maybe all of it was nonsense to begin with, all just being used to help media outlets and brands make even more more money off of you.

Okay, with that…because I could seriously talk about this for eight more hours…let’s jump into my conversation with Jenise.

manda

Why don’t you go ahead and introduce yourself to everyone?

Jenise

Yeah, so my name is Jenise Lamoreaux. And I am co founder of a new platform called Thuja. And what we do is we help our users to become empowered and understand but also save money on actual verified sustainable companies.

Amanda

And you know, when you and I were talking, like to prepare for this conversation, you told me that you grew up in Alberta, which you called Canada’s Texas. Yeah. And I was just wondering how growing up there sort of started you on your journey to being environmentalist, to caring about sustainability, to wanting to help people make better choices with shopping.

Jenise

Yeah, I think that sort of part of my personality was always innately within me, regardless of where I was going to grow. But maybe it just made me stand out a little bit more. My parents are so funny, they’ve always called me their little granola child, which is, take a regional term, I suppose for a little bit of a hippie or a little bit of a tree hugger got thrown around a lot. So I think it was always within my personality. But, um, yeah, maybe just made me stand out a little bit more living in. You could I mean, there’s so many great people everywhere, but it’s definitely a little bit more conservative, politically. And also, you know, it’s oil and gas. So.

Amanda

Yeah, I mean, it’s a total, it’s a totally different mindset around like Planetary Resources. Oh, absolutely. I mean, when you make a living off of oil and gas, it’s hard for you to understand why everybody else would want the world to switch to electric vehicles, or to stop making polyester or plastic because it’s like, well, there goes my livelihood.

Jenise

That’s exactly it. And I think we get pitted against each other a lot. When, you know, it’s, it’s completely reasonable for people to get defensive when others attack their livelihood and how they’ve provided for their families.

Amanda

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So. Okay, so you are starting this new platform to Yeah, will you tell us a little bit about what you’re doing?

Jenise

Yes, for sure. So it kind of started out as just like a random idea of being bored, you know, kind of mid COVID. And I had always worked been working towards something in my life, whether or not that’s like traveling, or going back to school. And I was just kind of living and enjoying my life. But I was just kind of like, I don’t really have any goals right now. And I went through a few ideas of a couple of different ideas for businesses, actually, one of them being a farmers market app that I discovered was already being

Amanda

debated. That’s a great idea. I thought it

Jenise

was really cool. Yeah. And no, but I made my this friend who is now my business partner, and he’s a born activist, and he was just so inspiring. And it really reignited my passion for everything, because a big part of two years to help busy people. You know, I, I went back, like I said, I went back to school, I went traveling, and I found that sort of the Sustainable aspect of my life kind of fell by the wayside. And he just really reignited that passion in me, and we’re just talking and talking. And we’re like, Well, what can we do when we kind of asked ourselves the question of, well, how do you get an average busy person who might be a little bit apathetic but wants to care, but doesn’t have the time? And so the, the answer was, well, you have to do all of the work for the individual, it has to be extremely easy, because we live in the age of convenience, you know, everything is at the tap of the button. And then also, you know, I’m not above saying like financial incentives, you know, we all want to save a few dollars, especially, you know, comparatively from when we’ve started inflation has just gone out the roof. So, we kind of started by answering the question, how do we change the average person’s habits, who you know, want to make a difference, but don’t have the time and then that’s where t it came from. So we had this idea of, well, we’ll rate and collect and find the brands for people and we’ll do the work and, and then a year and a half later. We’re, we’re still going and and yeah, so we, we will be launched in a couple of months here, and it’s super exciting to see everything come to fruition.

Amanda

And what did you get the name to? Yeah, yeah,

Jenise

yeah. Oh, I love that question. So our new is the name of my business partner and he is an And ecologist and he really wanted it to be based in nature, because a big part of our business is that a portion of our profits go towards targeted nature conservation. And I’m living in British Columbia, Canada. And a really big issue happening here right now is the logging of our old growth. And within our region, a lot of the old growth is the ancient western red cedar. And so Tuyen is Latin for the western red cedar. But it kind of comes with a little bit of a funny story, because he, you know, he’s got all of the nature and the biodiversity, that information, that knowledge. And so I was kind of saying him, we were coming down where I was like, Okay, I’m, you know, we need to set up the business structure, I need to create emails, I’m very much the business side of things. And I was like, You need to land on a net. And because we were throwing around a few, and I was I’m just gonna call it pine cone. If, yeah, if we can’t land on a name, I was like, if you can’t decide I’m calling it pine cone. And actually, I still have some friends that call it pine cone. But no, so weed. So we landed on two. Yeah.

Amanda

So let’s talk a little bit about this. Because there are a couple services out there that I mean, none of them are great, I will preface this. There are platforms, I can think out there that do in one way or another, whether they like you can go to their website, and they’ll sell you a curated assortment of products from brands that are They vetted, or they’re more like, good on you, where there are reviews sort of. But they also I mean, they’re definitely making money by like, driving advertising, basically, for the sustainable brands. How what you do be different.

Jenise

Yeah, so what we really want to do is we want to create a platform for the lesser known, lesser known brands, really doing cool things and making a difference. So we’re, when you look at good on you, and you look at those other services, they’re amazing. And, and we, you know, look to them for a lot of inspiration. But we’re not wasting our time with reading Nike, we’re not wasting our time with eight.

Amanda

And like, I’m glad that they do that, right. Because yeah, because, you know, no one else needs to do it now. But people do reach out to me, and they’re like, is Nike ethical? And I kind of laugh. But, you know, I realized that like, Nike is one of those brands that every year wins, like, wins, if that’s the right verb here, but they always are like, the most trusted consumer brand, which is laughable to me, because I think they’re like one of the sketchiest. But you know, there are people who are like, it’s anthropology ethical is repeatable, ethical, and I’m glad that Good on you is there to do that. But sometimes I, I use good on you a lot, I find that sometimes they give passes to brands that I don’t think they should. Yeah, and

Jenise

it’s really funny to look at that, because we’ve we’ve gone pretty deep into good on urine. And again, nothing against them, like the work that they’ve done is so extensive, but we noticed the same sort of thing we look at, I can’t even think of a brand off the top of my head, but we kind of will compare, you know, someone’s got an A and someone’s got a D. But you know, there’s a coupon code for one and not the other. And it seems like the rating should be reversed almost once you really look into it. But But yeah, so we don’t, you know, the ratings of the big box, you know, fast fashion brands have been done, we know they’re bad. What we want to do is kind of create a one stop shop to give the lesser known and don’t get me wrong, there’s going to be some well known brands on there that a lot of people know, but yeah, we just want to, at the end of the day, we want people to hop on to the website, and it will be an app later on down the road. But to just very easy, very clean, find the brands that are doing the good things and just use that as your shopping platform.

Amanda

I mean, people need that, because it’s it’s hard, right?

Jenise

Yeah. And just it’s a one stop shop, to help you shift into a more sustainable lifestyle without having to search through, you know, 1000s and 1000s of brands that you’re not necessarily looking for.

Amanda

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think I mean, I have so many thoughts around it, because one of the questions I receive most in my DM DMS on Instagram is like, hey, where can I find an ethical bathing suit or underwear or ethical jeans? Or I’m like, I don’t I personally don’t give people shopping advice. Like that’s just not what I’m here for. And they have to make those decisions on their own. And I, you know, I direct them towards platforms, but I can see how hard it is to wade through all of that information.

Jenise

Oh, yeah, I think that was the most surprising and hilarious thing about my journey. I had this idea and we’re like, oh, this is going to be, we’re gonna be up and running in six months. And this is going to be so easy like, no, no, that was a, that was a hard, fast realization, we probably spent six months developing our index. You know, we’ve passed off a few of our criteria, that we don’t have a lot of knowledge. And so social justice primarily. We’ve had people review and verify and compare with other indexes to make sure we’re covering all of our bases and the research that goes into really figuring out if a brand is telling the truth, and not just greenwash you it is an incredible amount of work. And I, I just think it’s so funny, because on our first conversation, we had a chat that I was saying, No, I, I don’t think I told you this part. But yeah, I had compiled the list of like, 200 companies, I was like, Wow, these guys are all doing really cool things. And six months later, you know, after we’re getting close to the finalization of our rating index, I go back and look at them. And I’m just, you know, there’s no way. So I’m not to say that I’m an expert, I’m a very average individual, but to the untrained eye, it takes a lot of effort, because marketing is just marketing, right? It’s words. brands can say anything. And so, you know, that’s why we really dive into like, third party verifications, and audits. And a lot of the times even these third party verifications aren’t necessarily what’s the word for it? Like that? They’re kind of faulty unto themselves as well. Like, it’s it’s easy. It’s

Amanda

so many layers. And I would say there are definitely brands that two years ago, I thought were pretty good. Yeah. And now I’m just like, No, I would, I would never shop for them for a variety of reasons. Like maybe I learned more about these sort of like certifications and whatnot that they were they were relying on, it turns out, they’re kind of scammy a lot of them are like, you know, a lot of them are like the like police themselves, basically. And that’s just not realistic.

Jenise

Yeah. And while we’re on the topic, like just to touch on, like the B Corp certification, like, don’t get me wrong, it’s great. And it’s a great initiative, but it’s just kind of like, it’s, uh, you know, you pay for this badge that holds a lot of clout. But at the end of the day, it really doesn’t mean anything.

Amanda

I know that one. No, that’s, it’s really true. It’s changed over the years. Yeah, I remember. Probably like four or five years ago, I was having a client of mine prepare for B Corp certification. And it was intense. Yeah, it made really revisiting every single thing that they were doing within their business, even just like the kind of cleaning products they were using in the offices, like paper products, all that stuff. But over time, and it’s because you know, real talk, the B Corp company makes money, that’s their business. Right? Yeah. Is is certifying people and, you know, renewing that certification. It’s very, very expensive. Naturally, over time, they wanted to grow that business. And so I think, and this isn’t even like, an I think, or a feeling it’s like something I’ve actually read and notice that it’s become easier to become a B Corp.

Jenise

Yeah. And even to go back to just like the learning curve of all of this, and, and how much time it does take to really look into these companies and, and verify if they’re, you know, walking, walking the walk is that, you know, when we started, I was like, Oh, we have to go for B Corp, we have to go for B Corp. And then as I’m reviewing these businesses, I was just like, Oh, this one doesn’t mean a lot does

Amanda

that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. i It seems that most the few other platforms that are out there that are really like, vetting brands for people are looking at like, okay, they look at their carbon footprint, maybe maybe their actions around water, you know, their policies regarding animal products, and, you know, they will generally speak to what they can speak to regarding, like wages and factory conditions, although that’s the, that’s the most opaque of it. All right. What else are you looking into as you build the sort of recommendation?

Jenise

Yeah, so generally speaking, what we see when we look at these other platforms is it’s really people, planet and animals. how in depth their index is definitely varies from platform to platform. But so we look into the product. So that’s a little bit of a vague statement, but we look into the portion of materials use so we compare how many sustainable materials they use, compare narratively to non sustainable materials. So you look at a brand like Patagonia that still use PFCs and GoreTex. But then they’re also using merino wool. So we kind of look at the comparison of those products, we look at timeless style. So is this, is this company putting out trendy clothes? Are they putting out clothes that they intend for you to wear for years? What are their warranty policies? Like? Do they have a do they have a repair program, a lot of companies that we’re seeing lately are coming out with a second life program that they’ll take back the product or where they have, you know, sort of a hub, which can be a little bit sketchy. And with certain companies, you know, you see h&m saying, Bring back your clothes, and we’ll give you like, you know, be wary of that. But when you see like a sustainable to the core company doing a second life program, that’s really great. We look into climate and ecology. So we look into their water practices, we look into what chemicals are they using in the production of their clothes? Are they using any methodologies to reduce their water consumption? We look into do they assess their carbon footprint? What are they doing to reduce their emissions? And then we go into social justice. So are they in support of unions? Where are their factories? Do they employ third party audits to ensure that their factories are providing safe labor conditions? You know, I could go on a few more minutes. But we look into all of that for every single brand. And if they don’t pass a certain threshold, we just don’t work with them.

Amanda

Yeah, I mean, I think I think that’s great. And so like, how would you work with them? Like, are you gonna get like, I don’t know, like affiliate links? Is that? Is that how it works?

Jenise

Yeah, that is essentially how it works. Exactly. So basically, it’ll just be a click through process, you can shop on their site, and you’ll just have a link that copies and paste. Okay.

Amanda

Okay, that’s great. I mean, I think that’s great. And it works to, you know, elevate brands that deserve to be elevated. Because I do believe like, when we, where we spend our money, how we spend our money really is a vote for our values. And if you not only by withholding your money from crappy brands, do you like affect their business model immediately, by then, you know, pushing that money into brands, companies that are actually doing things that are good, you allow them to grow and do more good.

Jenise

And we’re talking to about, you know, putting more money back into local economies as well. Lots of these are really cool brands or not multinational corporations. When you see money spent on these companies, you see money coming back directly to that local economy, whether it’s to the community, the province, or outwards. And then I think another topic that’s closely tied to that is, when you’re looking at these companies, on our website, if you just want to glance and see the overall rating, that’s cool. If that’s all you need, that’s fine. But we give you all the details. So the way we kind of staged, it was like, okay, the people that just want to glance and see a percentage, perfect, the people that want a little bit more in depth, we have that information. And then in time, what we’re hoping to have is a full downloadable report for exactly why we rated companies because at the end of the day, we just got really sick of just being targeted. As consumers, you know, we’re just everyday people like everyone else. And we want to foster a community that is creates empowered citizens and individuals that can learn how to spot these greenwashing tactics to so we tell you what we look for, we tell you how we rate the brand. And you can get as much information as you want. So I think alongside creating ease, it’s also about creating an empowered community that is just going to stand up and be like, No, you know, we’re demanding transparency. We’re demanding change now.

Amanda

Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, we have so much power, the greenwashing wouldn’t be as prevalent as it is right now, if retailers didn’t realize that, that’s what we care about. It’s really unfortunate that they, I mean, they all they all kind of do it wrong in the same way. Like they all have the same tricks and lingo and they only ever talk about like one fabric that’s a part of this whole thing. And yeah, yeah, it’s like the h&m thing. I I found I stumbled across like a Reddit thread where someone was like, something just doesn’t add up with the h&m take over I’m and I was like, Oh man, should I even get involved with this? Like, I have so many feelings that are like, Yeah, you’re right. But I think that they’ve all, you know, fast fashion loves to copy. And they love to copy one another too. And so they all copied the same dumb tricks, which is great, because you can see through them. And when you learn to look for what to look for, you can start to see what’s there and what’s not very easily and help others. sort it all out, too.

Jenise

Yeah. And we had this conversation when we were developing the idea, you know, it’s a lot of doom and gloom, like we talked about before it can get heavy. How do you? How do you communicate this message of Holy shit? This is, this is really bad. Yeah, without, you know, instilling some sort of hope. So our, our message isn’t you, as the individual are doing horrible things, and you need to show up better. It’s like, no, here’s the information of of what’s going on. We want to help educate as many people as we can we want you send this to your friends as a resource to us, you know, and then with that sort of collective action, and empowerment, just kind of fosters this hope that I’ve been riding the coattails of that, because yeah, it can get a little bit heavy sometimes. So we’re really, our message is definitely like, we’re not coming for you, as the individual. We’re, we’re coming after these industries. And we’re banding together because we’re just really, really sick and tired of being targeted as a mindless consumer. Because, no, thank you very much. We are empowered citizens.

Amanda

I mean, I love that because I see people turning on one another. Yeah, within the realm of environmentalism, sustainability all the time, and you just can’t do it. You just cannot do that. And I think it goes into like this idea of like, demanding perfection from one another, and ourselves, sets us up for failure for feeling overwhelmed and defeated and deciding No, you’re gonna go to bat for Amazon in a fight with someone on a tick tock video. I mean, it’s like, ridiculous, right? And ultimately, like, I think, and I feel so optimistic about all of the changes that we can all make together. Yeah, by being supportive, by gaining as much knowledge as we can about sharing that with other people, and being welcoming to other people who want to do something better, too.

Jenise

Yeah. And right now we’re in the middle of a social media campaign. And it’s, it’s called fast fashion, a horror story. And, you know, if you go to our Facebook page, it’s we are to Yeah. And it we go through the environmental destruction. So our water sources and the ocean, the waste in our landfills, the reliance on fossil fuels, and we go into the humanitarian aspects of fast fashion. So women’s, specifically children’s, specifically, systematic poverty, we go into the psychology of influencers. So parasocial relationships, and the return rates of these fast fashion come, oh,

Amanda

don’t get me. Yeah.

Jenise

And so in a lot of the reels that I’ve been posting, I call them my rants. So I do like a infographic and then I’ll just do a little bit of a rant, which is more humorous. And, but in a lot of them, like, I definitely reiterate the fact like, Hey, I’m not coming after you. I’m coming after the industries. Were just educating around here. Exactly. And we’re just trying to bring a little bit of light while still, you know, reviewing the vast interconnected devastation that this industry is wreaking havoc on the world because, you know, when you really look into it, it’s it’s so full scope of, you know, it just fast fashion touches everything.

Amanda

Yeah, yeah, it really does. It really does. And I think I can see how the business model of fast fashion, the the social media model that is fast fashion, how these things have permeated every aspect of our lives, whether it’s like what we eat, where we travel, the things in our houses, you know, personal care products, cars, furniture, everything has become like fast fashion. ified Oh, yeah. And it’s time it’s time for us to say no, no more.

Jenise

Exactly. And again, that’s where we tie back into just like that empowered individual. Like, you know, a lot of these companies too. I’m not necessarily good on you, or, and I’m not going to name any names. But you know, we could talk about tree washing and carbon neutrality that everyone’s jumping on. lately. I know like plant a tree for every purchase, or we’re carbon neutral. But here we have a subscription that we want you to purchase, and will invest in carbon offsets for you and, and you can live this guilt free life and jet set around the world and not have to worry about it because you’ve sucked that carbon out of the atmosphere. But

Amanda

that’s not real. That’s like No, no, like you’re paying for access to a vacuum that sucks carbon out. I know. It’s where I saw a bottle of soda last week at the store that said it was Kirpan. Yeah. And it was in a plastic bottles, so probably not.

Jenise

Yeah, and I can’t believe we’re just getting to carbon offsets and tree planting now. Because, yeah, we have a few. There’s a again, not going to mention mentioned names, but summer 2021, one business popped up. And they’re partnering with a lot of companies and they’re selling a subscription for carbon offsets. And it’s just, it’s it’s taking advantage of the lack of knowledge around these concepts, to make people feel like they’re really doing a good thing. But also withholding, it’s like you’re withholding informed consent. But you’re saying buy this and feel better about your lifestyle. And it’s it’s just ludicrous and borderline unethical. And it makes me so mad.

Amanda

It is I think it it’s not even borderline unethical. It is unethical. It’s like, it’s like the snake oil of environmentalism. Yeah, cuz it doesn’t. Yeah, it’s not real. It’s not real, perfect way

Jenise

to describe it. Yeah. And yeah, all these companies coming out. And, and so when I explained it to friends and stuff, I sort of say, you know, the biggest oil companies could claim carbon neutrality. But and when you when you put it on that scale, people kind of realize, oh, okay, well, like, no, they’re still going to be admitting that level of carbon. And then also, don’t do not get me wrong, these are good programs that should be a part of a tool belt. But it’s also programs that are, you know, the carbon effect that they will have, will not occur for many years in the future, especially tree planting programs, you know, oh, my God, I know. And, and so, living living in in British Columbia, that’s one of our, our biggest industries is forestry. And we have been burning to the ground every summer. It’s getting really, really bad year after year. And so when we talk about tree planting, so we’ve lost so much of our biodiversity because they just plant monocultures. And then on top of that, so where are these? What kind of trees are being planted? Where is it promoting biodiversity? What kind of company is planting these trees? And then the biggest question is, so many of these trees aren’t going to live to the age where they will start to sequester carbon, because they’re going to burn because we’re not making changes now. So the biggest thing is, yeah, carbon offsets and tree planting, they are a tool, and they’re good for the future. But we need to change our habits now. So we need to buy less we need to buy better. And we need to protect the nature. So yeah, I could I could van for days.

Amanda

Yeah, exactly. I mean, these are just tricks. The tree planting one has been around for a while. I feel like the carbon offset is a new thing. Another one that I’ve seen a lot is like, it’s like plastic waste offset where people are trying to be plastic neutral, not by like eliminating plastic from their supply chain, or reducing their plastic packaging or anything like that. But like allegedly by saying like, Okay, I’m selling you this soda and a plastic bottle. But guess what, I’m gonna pull a plastic bottle worth of plastic out of the ocean. And that’s, that’s not real math.

Jenise

No, no, that’s Net Zero. Yeah. We’re not actually removing anything,

Amanda

right. This is a like a good thing. That plastic bottle was already there. And now we just made another one. So we still have two plastic bottles. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, there’s a lot of I think like, honestly, if it seems too good to be true, and the world of like sustainability, definitely where that’s been ruined. It probably is. Yeah, yeah, that’s exactly it.

I’m just curious, like, what are some brands? That through this process your opinion, you really changed your opinion of them?

Jenise

Oh my gosh, off the top of my head. I’ve been focusing on social media all day. I have to think about this a little bit. Gosh, I suppose. You know what, I don’t even have an answer for you right now.

Amanda

Okay, that’s fine. I’ll tell you some that I’ve sort of like, some I was like, sort of skeptical of in the first place, but over time, like change like one is girlfriend collective. Okay. Um, I think I from moment one, I felt really weird about how a lot of their clothes were made out of recycled plastic bottles. Oh, yeah. You know, is kind of scammy in itself. We talked about on the podcast before that, you know, it’s not something that needs to be happened. What we need to be happening is fabric made of other fabric, not fabric made of plastic bottles that then can’t be recycled again. Right?

Jenise

Well, well, that’s it. No, the recycled plastic clothing does is drive up the demand for recycled plastic. It doesn’t do anything about like you said the production of polyester or the actual production of general plastics on earth. Like we need to focus on this source.

Amanda

Right, right. And I think for a lot of people, whether they’re conscious of it or not, they hear that there’s clothes out there being made of plastic bottles, and then, you know, maybe in situations where they wouldn’t have taken a bottle, a plastic bottle of water, like at an event or something. They’re like, Well, yeah, it’s gonna dance. Right?

Jenise

Yes. And that’s so true. And that kind of comes with like, the superiority complex of donations, right? Like, it’s okay, I’m going to donate it not realizing that it’s ending up on the shores of Ghana, at the rate of 15 million pieces per week.

Amanda

Right, right. So that’s one like, basically, I would say, two years ago, I had really strange feelings about brands in general that were really leaning on making clothes out of plastic bottles. And now I’m like, That’s greenwashing. You know, you’re not telling the whole story. And the other thing that kind of troubles me about girlfriend Collective is I feel like they operate like a fast fashion company. They’re really churning out products all the time. So that’s one we’re like my, as I’ve learned more, my feelings have changed. And another one for me, which is pretty similar, because this is another company that puts a lot of content out in the world about making clothes out of recycled plastic is parade. Okay, yeah, underwear company. Yeah, they feel really sketchy to me too. Like, I’ll be honest, I, I stumbled across a Reddit thread where people were talking about like, is parade ethical or not? Yeah, one person was like, honestly, I think they’re the biggest screen washers of all, because they use crazy amounts of packaging. And like, they, you know, are pushing me to buy new underwear, like every day. I was like, Yeah, you’re right. You’re right.

Jenise

And I think the biggest thing to look into, or, you know, like, if I could say one thing when when you’re reviewing a company, and you’re not sure, and you know what failed for two years, in a few months, because you’re going to be able to hop on there, and we’ll help you. But in the meantime, if you see a brand that’s just really, really heavily promoting one aspect of their business that like, you know, it’s it’s just that one business practice that they’re pushing, like, we only use recycled materials, okay, but how big is your supply chain? And do you assess your carbon footprint? And, you know, we go into like social justice, like, what are your advertising? You know, so it goes beyond environmental and it goes into human rights because sustainability, I’m going to go on a little tangent here. I’ve even grown to kind of dislike the term sustainability because it’s, it’s just thrown around so loosely. I know. And so when I use it, I think it has to be sustainable for the people and sustainable for the earth. So when you look at a company, like oh my gosh, what is I don’t even like to follow these brands. But what is Kim Kardashian? Is it skims is that? Yeah, oh my god, of course, like, I have to go to the website and look, and there’s so I think it’s just really heavily based on the materials that they use. So like less than 101, if they’re just really heavy, heavily focusing on that. And then there’s no mention of human rights. So there’s no mention of internal evaluation of carbon emissions. And if there’s no goals for five years down the road, it’s just the biggest red flag. And as I’m saying that I actually remember that they, they actually do talk about human rights in their factories. But this is where we tie in the third party verifications, because then those are just words, because they’ve actually been caught. You know, overseas, sketchy business practices within their factories.

Amanda

Not so it’s rise.

Jenise

Yeah. Yeah. So it’s so convoluted, and it’s so in depth, but yeah, less than one to one, if you’re, if you’re looking at a brand, and you’re not sure, and they’re just really weighing on one topic and one business practice. That’s your, that’s your first indication. But we’re seeing some really, really cool self assessments, and go goals for businesses that are industry leaders in sustainability, so for their people for their product for the earth, and it’s really inspiring, and really awesome. And we’re so excited to start sharing these companies.

Amanda

Yeah, I’m excited for it. You know, I was in a car a lot, a very long car ride with a co worker yesterday. And you know, we, we were going off on a whole tangent like it started with paper rags, and then it went into, like, people making clothes out of recycled bottles. And then, you know, she said to me, like, Amanda, do you think a business can be truly sustainable and ethical even as it grows in size? And they said, Yeah, I actually truly believe that. But I think you have to be committed to that from day one, and really passionate about it. And I see a lot of brands out there that I think ultimately we’ve all come to recognize as being very green washi, like Everlane, for example, oh my gosh, right. Who like, that’s a God, like it was founded by a guy who, you know, has neither a background in clothing or sustainability, right. But like, saw it as a marketing. Yes, exactly. thing. And if you’re coming at it, like doing the right thing is a marketing story. It’s always gonna fall by the wayside as your business grows, right? It’s just you’re not gonna if you’re not really living it from the ground up, it’s gonna fall apart or like I, I think it’s like reformation, which has had just so many Oh, yeah. So many issues, right. Like, especially, especially when we talk about like the human aspect of it, right. And they’ve been like, there’s been Western whispers about them being bad news for a really long time. Like, since their early days for other people who worked in the fashion industry in LA, like, it was sort of a known fact that it was kind of a scam. But it’s also important to call out that when reformation started, it was with the plan of being like so called Sustainable fast fashion, which is an oxymoron. Yeah, that

Jenise

those two terms do not exist.

Amanda

When you come to the table, with a plan that is either, like, doesn’t make any sense, like reformation or isn’t truly with doing what’s right at the center. Of course, it falls apart at some point and you become really reliant on like, harping about like, pants made out of recycled bottles, like it just, it just never is real. Like, because then like, oh, sure, maybe maybe you’re using the so called Sustainable fabrics, which we know aren’t but then you’re not caring about the people who make the stuff. Yeah, or sell the stuff. The people working in the retail stores your warehouses it. It’s like you have to really be in it and truly believe it and never, and never walk away from it in order to keep your business ethical the whole time.

Jenise

Yeah, exactly. And also, I think we have this this mindset too, because we’re, you know, good old late stage capitalism and the world that we live in, especially in North America. I think there’s not necessarily misconception but just ingrained beliefs over time that like, okay, that people tend to do the good thing you’ll be off on the fringe and, you know, kind of good luck to you really, like so many of these business big businesses have been made off the back of other people, you know, that’s why fast fashion they’re you know, multibillion dollar corporations and have, you know, essentially enslaved women in the Global South, but I think there’s so many cool brands that just from the get go, have are designed and produced, and not just minimum wages, but living wages. And, you know, they assess their carbon footprint, and they have a very small supply chain, and like it can be done and also big businesses to it. It’s really, really lovely to see a different perspective from the side of these big businesses that are making their shifts. Because when you’re looking at extensive supply chains, it’s very hard to pivot in a totally different direction. But it can, and it is being done and actually coming. I listened to one of your latest podcasts yesterday. And I actually, I’m so sad, I left my notebook at my friend’s house, and it’s like tearing me apart. Because I always love to have my notebook on me, I really wanted to write write down what you said. But I guess what I want to say is that it can and it is being done. And so what we’re trying to do is bring this to the limelight, because in your podcast that I listened to Yesterday, you were talking about, you know, we have this feeling a lot of the times that as a single individual, we can’t do a lot, but like collective action is massive. And that’s how you shift money from these detrimental business practices, to the guys that care about the planet from the get go. Like, it can be really inspiring and really hopeful and really empowering all at once. And we’re really trying to hold on to that feeling. Because, you know, in the world of sustainability, there’s a lot going wrong. Really, you could say sometimes it can be, you know, it can be a little bit of a heavy, heavy burden on your back.

Amanda

It’s true. I mean, it’s just like more bad news every day. Yeah, right. And it becomes it can become so much easier to just cover your ears and pretend you don’t know that any of this is happening. But I do believe I mean, one of the reasons I started clotheshorse is because in my career working on the other side as a, as a buyer, yeah, I saw and knew how every decision we made was steered by money. And if customers didn’t buy something, we never bought that again. Right. And if they did buy some things, we bought a million more of that. And we you know, we began if we saw like business slowing down considerably, you know, we would we would try to figure out what it was like, did we need to have less expensive stuff more expensive stuff? Did we need to have more clothes for festival like? Yeah, I think there were there were all it was always about us like reacting because like for these businesses, their biggest fear is not making money.

Jenise

And that’s it. And look at the origins of greenwashing, too, you know, like big companies have clued in that people want sustainability. I think it’s 70% of people will spend an extra I can’t remember the exact dollar amount, but 70% of people let’s just say we’ll spend an extra $10 on a sustainable product. So we you can very easily understand why these companies are jumping on or piggybacking off of these greenwashing taglines because it’s it’s yeah, it’s what the people want. And so it’s it’s a daunting time, but it’s a really exciting time. And yeah, I was talking with a friend today and it’s like, you know, maybe it’s too heavy to say but sometimes it feels like in terms of you know, the environment and the goals we need to achieve to turn things around it feels a little bit too late but I was like I’m not gonna go out without kicking and screaming you know, I’m

Amanda

absolutely cannot give up I definitely see I see that very faulty line of thinking yes, a place on social media where it’s like, it’s too late or I’m sorry, but my impact will never be that Amazon so why bother? Yeah, I’m just gonna give up and go buy 50 things from Sheehan and it’s like no don’t don’t do that. Yeah, and don’t do that

Jenise

if I can just you know, if not i If our new and I can just change a couple of people or a couple people’s you know, way of thinking away from apathy towards like know collectively we can make a difference and we can ship these business practices that I’ve done my work you know, if I can just absolutely help a few people by creating a tool where they can feel better about their purchases. But you know, I should say to our ethos is definitely do you need it? Do you have something similar? Can you buy it secondhand? If not, if you really need to buy something new let us help you. Here shop these companies because I think to like, you know, we could just dive into The topic of overconsumption as well like, over the last 20 years, our our mindsets have just shifted to such it. And it’s hard to get out of that mindset. You know, like, yesterday, yesterday, I was in the pharmacy, and I was like, Oh my gosh, that’s so cute. Oh my gosh, that’s so cute. And have you spoken with Ashley Piper before? No, I haven’t. She’s incredible. And she’s doing this no new things for a year challenge for all of her following. And she popped into my head and as I don’t need this, but we’re just so accustomed to, to buying more and buying more buying more. So, yeah, yeah, sorry, I went on a little bit of tangent there.

Amanda

No, and I think you know, I think because some of this, all of this can feel very overwhelming. It can feel very depressing. It can feel like the weight of all of it. It’s just like smashing you into the ground, you’re never going to be able to get back up and do better. I think that, you know, I like what you’re saying about, you know, if even a few people hear this and they get motivated, you know, that spreads like wildfire. Yeah. But furthermore, making it easier when we can for others I think is really important to like the greenwashing out there is so it is so intense, like we

Jenise

can we can even call it impressive. Like there. It’s really

Amanda

like, it’s it’s layers upon layers. And I’ve actually been for a while really pondering and kind of like thinking through and you writing what will be like a future episode or post or something about how the fashion media and just media as a whole is really amplifying greenwashing in such a like, it’s like a megaphone. So, you know, like if I, one of the times I fell for greenwashing that really for me, like solidified just how challenging it is, for the average person was, you know, I’d heard that cactus leather, so called Cactus either was fully biodegradable and is like, you know, not no plastic products whatsoever. And I was like, wow, that’s really amazing. And honestly, if you sat down and open a browser window and typed into Google, you know, cactus, leather, biodegradable or cactus leather, plastic free, you would surely find 20 to 30 pages of results telling you how great your practice letter is. And something that I noticed as I went on this journey was like, wow, wait, it’s kind of like every article is saying everything in the exact same way. And then I was like, wait, no, literally, they’re all using the exact like, they’re, it’s like they’re copies of one another. And then I realized I got to like page 20 of my search results. And I realized that all of them were parenting, and it was like,

Jenise

blog. From one press release. Right? Place. Yeah,

Amanda

I found the press release. Yeah. And then I was like, okay, yeah, here and now why. So it took me probably another 30 minutes of really combing the website for the cactus Leather Company with a fine tooth comb to find one sentence where they finally say, you know, it’s not fully made of plant products. It does contain, you know, like PVC or pu, something like that as a coating, because I was like nothing is adding up. I know why faux leather is the way it is and why it often contains plastic. And like, I was like, it’s just not adding up. And I finally found like the one sentence buried deep within their website that really was like, oh, yeah, no, it’s not plastic free. And it’s not biodegradable. Yes. And I thought like, I’ve just spent, I don’t know, 3045 minutes to figuring this out. The average person is not going to do that when they need a pair of shoes, or a pair of underwear or a swimsuit, or, you know, clothes for work, they’re not going to do it. And that’s why greenwashing is so successful. It’s not just that the brands are because it’s not even like, honestly, the brands aren’t doing a good job of it. What’s happening is it’s being repeated so much that it feels real. Yeah,

Jenise

and I think too, I’m, it could be sad that, you know, I get a little bit upset sometimes because they’re really just capitalizing on the fact that we’re just too busy, you know, like, so and, you know, coming from the, the millennial, you know, it’s a hard job market, and things are expensive, and we don’t have time, and then we have these brands over here with a megaphone, and it’s just really coming to light all of the greenwashing you know, it’s, we we kind of used to have this trust with these companies of Lego, they wouldn’t necessarily lie to me and, you know, we’re kind of pulling back the curtain now and going, Well, wait a second. And, you know, it’s really eye opening to see like, no, no, we’re just, maybe that’s naive of me to say but you know, It is really based around just based around profits and greenwashing and, and I also want to say to like, I never want to come out here and say that we’re always striving to be perfect. And I’m the most perfect consumer ever. I’m in, in the grocery store. And I love prawns, I love eating shrimp. And, you know, you see those little third party verifications or oceanwide, or this, ah, green, tick on on the big or the, you know, vacuum sealed bag of fish that you want a cat. And it’s so funny, because, you know, I, my, my business partner jokes that he’s created a monster out of me, because I’ve just become a little bit ruthless with raiding these companies. And I’m getting so much better. But in terms of food, you know, I’m, I’m not super aware. And, and so I’ll be grocery shopping, and I’ll send him a photo be like, Oh, look, I just found these and like, what do you think of this certification? And, and, you know, I try not to buy a lot of fish. And I try not to buy a lot of meat. But he just sends me a message back. And it’s just like, nice. That sentence doesn’t even make sense. Like, how could you fall for that? And also good. It looked convincing to me. So, yeah, I never want to sit over here and pretend like I’m the most perfect consumer ever. But yeah.

Amanda

Yeah, no, I mean, it’s, it’s really, really hard. Sometimes I’m like, Man, I just like want to eat, I just want to eat some food.

Jenise

Yeah, sometimes, you just have to let yourself too and, and coming back to sort of carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders. Sometimes just eat the steak, you know, eat the dairy. And also for fast fashion. If you really need something, get it, but just try and hold on to the piece as long as you can. Because if you are buying fast fashion, just understand it’s probably going to end up in a landfill, it’s not going to biodegrade and it’s probably going to turn toxic. And it’s probably going to burden the global self. So just keep it as long as possible and be just a little bit mindful about it. You know, like, we’re not all ever going to be perfect.

Amanda

Absolutely. I think that is really good advice. Because I think like what is what is the saying? It’s like, don’t let perfection be the, the enemy of good basically, like, if I can’t be perfect. Yeah, yeah. And that is what happens a lot. And I, I see, like, for example, someone tagged a clotheshorse on a tic tock video today. And they’re like, you know, I’ve been really thinking more and more about this, and I’m not going to buy as much stuff anymore, and blah, blah, blah. And someone’s commented like a bunch of people comment actually, like, Oh, really, then are you gonna stop posting videos of you wearing clothes from Urban Outfitters? Are you gonna get rid of all your fat? And she was like, No, that’s the point of it. Yeah, keep this stuff and wear it as long as possible. And I think we get so in our head that we set ourselves up for failure by like, Man, I ended up buying a bra target. Now I give up now I’m gonna go buy a Keurig. And I’m only going to drink bottles. You know? It’s like, no, no, no, like, it’s okay. I think that one of the most important things that any of us can do is lead by example, and share what we know. Because even if someone says, I don’t care what you say, I’m still getting a shieldhall. Next week, there is going to be this little seed planted in their brain, when they hear what you’ve said, or what you’ve shared, that will make them think and we’ll change behavior. tomorrow, next week, next year. Who knows? You could be the person who starts that. Yeah,

Jenise

yeah. So long as they start to think about it, you know, it is so important. And yeah, it’s you get that thought process going. But yeah, for asset to you, it’s like, you know, our website is actually you know, a portion of it is launching tomorrow. So that’s super exciting. So, by the time this episode airs, people will be able to go and check us out and see what we do and see the conservation efforts that we support. But you know, when you go to our website, it just it’s buy less, buy better, protect nature. So if you just keep that in the back of your head like ah, I went on vacation I forgot a bathing suit like okay, well, we’re not going to tell you to go naked go to Target get that bathing suit but then you know, just keep it for as long as you can and then if that bathing suit falls apart because in evitable II will then just be a little bit more conscious within your next purchase. And yeah, also surround yourself with different influencers to like I know the rogue essentials on Instagram I absolutely love her she’s like conventional fast fashion influencer gone green and just outfit repeating in capsule closets. And it’s it’s just such great inspiration like, the other day I went through my closet, and I turned like, you know, I just kind of, I’m kind of the person over the years that my friends just give their old clothes to I don’t know why I’ve ended up being that person but, um, especially I go back home to Alberta reference like I’ve got a bigger clothes for you and I’m like, okay, sure I’ll sort through them. So how do these leggings that I’d never worn and I don’t buy a lot new. And so I was like, you know, I haven’t really bought into the bike short trend yet. And I just sat for a few hours and like snipped the legs off of these leggings that I didn’t necessarily like the Fit off. And now I have like five pairs of cuprite shorts. Granite said it’s so fun to do.

Amanda

Someone might hear or see that you did that and get that idea for themselves. Yes. Good. God knows there are a lot of leggings at thrift stores here in the United States like all the Lulu row and and Lululemon. Oh yeah, like there’s so much

Jenise

You know, there’s one brand that has, you know, claim to fame based on that we plant a tree for every purchase. And I visited their website not too long ago, and they’re now selling carbon offsets with literally the phrasing of feel better about your next international flight. And it’s just, it’s, I just, I can’t, I can’t handle it, you know, it’s the blink blatant capitalization off of the education of these topics, or the fact that we live too busy of lives. And we’ve been taken advantage of to really, you know, educate ourselves around these topics. And yeah, I just, it really, it really grinds my gears.

Amanda

Absolutely, I will just tell everyone who’s listening, that anybody can start a business that plants a tree for everything they sell. Because there’s, there are also companies out there that offer the service of ostensibly planting the tree for every purchase and use business owner pay them it’s so someone’s also getting rich, off of this tree planting scheme, in addition to the retailer, and I totally know what brand you’re talking about, because every time there’s like, it’s like, they’ve been coming up a lot now on lists of like this brand green washes, but it took a few years. I think

Jenise

what I that’s an again, I’m not super into calling out at this point, you know, but that now that I’m gonna circle back to the, are there any companies that you thought were super great, and then realized after the fact, that was one that I looked at? And went, Oh, my gosh,

Amanda

so this brand, which we’re not going to say, but it is a brand that I would say is it’s been around like maybe four or five years, it was definitely one of the earlier sustainable, sustainable brands. And we actually at my last job carried that line, because they really sold us like a lot of like, false false dreams, you know, and like I, they they are one that people ask me about a lot. And I have been seeing them slowly, people are starting to figure it out. Yeah,

Jenise

I think to have if we’re going to come back to the identification of greenwashing. If it’s I guess it’s it’s like asking, telling your your kid not to get into the strange van with the man with candy. If someone tries to tell you to sell you carbon offsets, where say they’re going to plant a tree with every purchase, immediately be a little little bit hesitant, I would ask them about their supply chain instead. And I would ask them about their employment practices. Instead, I don’t care about offsets and trees, how do you treat your people? How big is your supply chain? Have you you know, self assess to your carbon emissions? And then you’re probably just gonna get a big blank stare, you know? Oh, probably, probably plant trees.

Amanda

Right? Are we used less water? You know, I would say like, there are three or four brands that be like really came up in the last five years, that are like just the worst green washers and clothing. And they all do the same thing over and over again, I was like, confusing you with like, the materials they’re using are these tree planting, or like, here’s allegedly a photo of someone who works in our factory, that kind of stuff. But when you take a step back and really look at what they’re doing, they never really talk about how they’re paying people or caring for them. They totally ship in like plastic poly bags, they do all kinds of other dumb stuff that is like, very clearly like no tree planting is going to offset. And they will often use fast fashion tricks to sell you as much stuff as possible, as often as possible. And the thing that what I considered the worst green washers in this area right now, that one thing they all have in common? Is that like they are constantly in pursuit of exponential growth. And they have been taking in a lot of VC. And it’s just about like growing, growing, growing that right there. Yeah. And their greenwashing takes hold.

Jenise

And it’s a lot of vague language because again, a company can say whatever they want, so they could talk a lot, okay, the most of them can talk in circles. But it’s very vague wording. And because it’s such an important topic to a lot of people right now, one way that you can really tell is, you know, hop on a website of a truly sustainable brand. I’m just gonna plug us again, like, come visit us in a couple of months and we’ll help you because it’s what people want. The brands doing it. Give the details. They tell you their policies. They tell you absolutely to reduce your shopping habits. They tell you they want you to wear their product for five years and only buy one One at a time. You know, they tell you that they don’t have 17 sales a year. They’re very forthcoming, in depth about their business practices. And that’s, you know, one of the biggest differences is, I have friends that come to me now and just sort of saying, like, Oh, what about this brand? And, you know, they’re like, I can’t tell you right now, but I’ll have a look at their website. And it’s just vague, you know, sustainability jargon over and over again. And it’s like, we treat our people like family. Okay, how? How, you know, what audits do you use? What countries do you operate in? Is there any legislation around living wages? Is there legislation against the discrimination of women in hiring practices? You know, just if the brand is doing it, because people want it, they will give you the details. So if it’s just a lot of vagueness, that’s another thing to be really weary of.

Amanda

Toe? Absolutely, absolutely. And like, I cannot emphasize enough that if people are doing things the right way, you will 100% hear about it. Yeah, exactly. It’s worth bragging about and the larger brands that sidestep it, are consciously sidestepping it.

Jenise

Yeah. And, you know, they’ve hired some great copywriters, that really

Amanda

are really good at like, non committal language. Yeah, like words. sound nice, but me nothing I know, it’s like one of those things. Once you start to recognize it, you see it everywhere. And it’s like nails on a chalkboard. Yeah.

Jenise

And it’s, but it’s such a good feeling. And I’m so excited to just, you know, create that for so many people, like, let’s just create. And so you know, I’m like, sometimes I describe us, I’m like, we’re, you know, we’re fed up, we want to create an empowered community. And frankly, we’re all a little bit angry. So an angry little army that can spot this greenwashing and collectively shift these business practices. And, you know, like I said, before, bring money back into these local economies and not towards these businesses like she and that, you know, profit these men and comes down to it to like, it’s a few men that are profiting off of the backs of women’s insecurities, and off of women in the Global South. Oh, my gosh.

Amanda

Oh, yeah, that’s something that always struck me. In the first few years of my career, I worked for a really big fast fashion company here in the US. And I, we have like open seating. So everybody just sat at a you know, it was like, rows of like tables, basically. And everybody up there were offices on one side of the building. And those were for executives. And everybody sitting in the open seating was a woman. Yeah. And everybody in the offices, the executives were men. Yeah. And there was this really paternalistic attitude towards us in meetings, like imagine, you know, you’re a business person, you’re smart, you’re an expert in what you do. And your boss is calling you honey or Sweeney in a meeting. Yeah. You know, and it’s not like this. I’m not talking about the 1950s. You’re talking about this century. And so I think it struck me early on that this company, this industry, is built upon the labor of women, and then the insecurities of women. And yes, people of all genders are sucked up into this. But like, traditionally, historically, it has been built upon women.

Jenise

Yeah, yeah. And if we just focus on the fact that fast fashion really profits off of the insecurities of women, especially young women, doing all of these fast fashion hauls, and these micro trends, and then in some areas in the Global South, 99 to 100% of these factory workers are women, you know, with everything like, man, we have so much sympathy for the for our sisters down in the States right now having Roe v. Wade, overturned, like, it’s just, it’s horrific. And so I think, you know, I get really passionate about the feminist aspect of the like, tearing down the fast fashion monolith because it really does just build up these, you know, male billionaires and off of the backs of women and it’s just drives me crazy. And a lot of people that I talked to, I’m like, if you just think of one thing, think of the woman that it affects, you know, and it’s almost like diet culture, the beauty industry like you need this. You need that you need to buy into this, but all the while you’re just buying a billionaire, another yacht. Jack rose. Yeah, it’s just not something I want to be a part of anymore.

Amanda

mediator. Well, it’s been so awesome to talk to you. Do you have any like Any final parting words of advice or just like something you want to say to get everybody excited to go out there and build a better world?

Jenise

Yeah, I mean, I would just say that things can be a little bit heavy right now. But you know, like you said in your podcast, the more recent one if we band together like collective action is absolutely possible. And it does make a difference. And, yeah, we’ll be launching soon in a couple of months here. Well, as of tomorrow, you’ll be able to visit our website, see who yay yet see who we are, what we’re doing, and we’ll start announcing brands and we’re actually doing crowdfund campaign at the beginning of September as well. So yeah, we’ll be we’ll be all over social media. ranting with a little dash of humor,

Amanda

so awesome. I can’t wait to see it. Awesome. Yeah, it

Jenise

was so lovely to be here. Thank you so much.

Amanda

Thank you so much.

Thanks to Jenise for spending some time with me! As Jenise mentioned, Thuja is getting ready to start its crowdfunding campaign. I will share the link in the show notes. Please go check it out and sign up for email notifications! Jenise told me later: “With crowdfunding we are hoping to enhance our user experience and start looking at app development, as well as expanding our team and our rating capabilities, and covering the cost of some expensive industry specific software. “ This a great project to support! I am obsessed with helping others have access to helpful information that allows them to make better decisions when it’s time to buy something new, so I will definitely be supporting Thuja’s crowdfunding!

As I say constantly, the fashion industry thrives on feelings of insecurity and being left out. When you feel bad about yourself, you buy more stuff! Slow fashion is the exact opposite!!!

Slow fashion is a thoughtful approach to style and clothing that considers the processes and resources required to produce clothing. The slow fashion community values the fair treatment of people, animals, and the planet. We support one another and we avoid “shaming” as a means of education. We know that a better future requires change and work from all of us…and we want EVERYONE to feel welcome to join! NO GATEKEEPING IS ALLOWED!

That’s why it’s up to us to help others make good decisions, by sharing our knowledge and experience. I get so excited to see all of you sharing and creating your own educational content about fast fashion and greenwashing. There are still SO MANY people who don’t know what we know, the things we have learned in the past few years. Knowing that keeps me motivated on days when I’m tired or getting close to burned out…giving up is just not an option when so few people know the truth about our clothing and just about everything else we buy. I guess I’m on a mission. And guess what? You’re on the mission with me! I guarantee you have already changed some minds this week, maybe made some of the people in your life think twice about something they took for granted as true. Keep up the good work! I’ll be there working alongside you!

Thanks for listening to another episode of Clotheshorse, written/researched/edited/hosted by Amanda Lee McCarty.