Episode 164: Meet Lisa of Two Big Blondes

Welcome to Clotheshorse, the podcast that missed talking into a microphone for the last few weeks.

I’m your host, Amanda and this is episode 164. Wow, it’s been more than a month since I released a new episode and it felt so weird (in a good way) to be editing and researching this weekend! In the month since you last heard from me, I went to Japan with Dustin. Yes, it was great and the trip went too fast. We saw a lot of great art, took a lot of public transportation, walked many, many miles every day, met lots of cats, and (in my opinion) did not eat enough Japanese food.

After our Japan trip, it was back to work at my day job (which has been really intense this year) and I didn’t really have any other free time to relax for the rest of my month off from Clotheshorse. But the most important thing (no, it’s not how much Japanese food I ate), is that I realized I need to take time off from Clotheshorse more often to preserve my mental health and my creative energy. So I’m going to be doing that more often…which is also kinda hard to think about because this work is so important to me!

In today’s episode, you are going to meet Lisa, the owner of Two Big Blondes, a plus size consignment shop in Seattle, Washington. Any time I ask on Instagram for recommendations for plus size secondhand sellers, Two Big Blondes comes up over and over again. And it’s no surprise to me that its customers are so loyal and enthusiastic, because it does such an incredible job of serving its community! You’ll get to hear all about it in today’s episode. Lisa and I will be talking about the challenges of running a consignment shop, her advice for all of you looking for plus size secondhand clothing, and how the fashion industry has a long way to go in many, many ways…including the way it does and does not dress larger people.

Before we jump into my conversation with Lisa, let’s dig into that issue a bit. Why does the industry do such a terrible job of dressing larger people? And by doing a “terrible job,” I mean a few things:

Most brands just ignore that anyone beyond a size 12 exists. In fact, the majority of clothing available for purchase online right now, is a size 8 or smaller. Meanwhile, the average American woman is a size 16. So the industry is making a conscious decision to leave lots and lots of money on the table by cutting out the majority of American women as potential customers. That’s kind of a disconnect from everything we know about fast fashion, an industry that survives by selling as much stuff as possible, as often as possible. It’s an industry that will abandon any semblance of right and wrong in favor of profitability. So why cut its revenue in half (or more) by ignoring an entire customer segment? Don’t worry, we’re going to get into that.

Next, brands that DO carry extended sizes often carry them only online or in select stores, making trying on clothes next to impossible. Now, as we’ve talked about here on the podcast many, many times, the industry has experienced a massive revenue drain caused by the sheer volume of items being returned every day. Returns cost money in a lot of ways: the actual shipping, the lost sales, and of course, the wages of the humans who received, inspect, and put away these returned items, as well as process the actual return in the system. And, this non-stop flood of returns requires more customer service employees to keep customers happy. When you’re serving an entire customer base online only, you’re going to get even more returns, and lose even more money. So why would retailers do that? Yes, we’re going to get into that, too.

And lastly, many of these brands are doing a really bad job of sizing in the first place, regardless of size. But when it comes to extended sizing, they just aren’t getting it right. Which leads to more returns, which costs more money, and disappointed customers never come back. Yeah, we’ll get into that, too.

There are two main reasons why the fashion industry is doing such a terrible job of dressing larger people:

Anti-fat bias. Yeah, it’s really that simple. There are brands out there that just don’t want to dress people beyond a certain size because they think it damages the desirability of the brand. I have sat in meetings where people have said “it’s just not aspirational to show that on a larger model.” And “it’s hard to make something look good on a size 10 model.” The person who said the former quote, she was the CEO of a so-called “feminist” brand.

How many brands do I think are not extending sizes due to anti-fat bias, either overtly or unconsciously? I would say most at this point, especially those with the corporate buying power and budget to do it more easily.

For everyone else, it’s the fear of losing money, of making less money, etc. And this is (at this point) a somewhat legitimate fear because the companies that have tried to offer more sizing, have fucked it up in a lot of different ways…and it could have been avoided by listening to customers in the first place by offering all sizes in stores (rather than online only), using actual plus size models (nothing worse than a brand shooting its extended sizing on a size 10 model), and fitting things properly. And because some big brands like Loft and Old Navy have tried to extend sizing and failed, it makes it harder for other brands to try it themselves. Extending sizes costs money that retailers are afraid to spend:

More fit testing, research and development. The fact of the matter is that most designers don’t learn how to grade clothing beyond say an XL, so there is a limited supply of technical designers able to do that. And getting this fit right requires trial, error, models, samples, and TIME. Time is something the fast fashion industry does NOT want to invest.

Extending sizes means buying more inventory, which can be risky if a collection does not perform well. So if a style is a dud and a brand bought only sizes S-XL, it’s less inventory to dump than if the brand bought sizes 00-30. This is a problem that could be solved by slowing things down and being less trend focused, but we’re talking about the fast fashion industry here, and they want constant newness, which means buying into every trend, no matter how viable. And therefore, dealing with a lot of duds.

Really investing in marketing, social media, new customer acquisition, additional models, larger mannequins and reconfiguring stores to merchandise more sizes. This costs money that is scary to spend when you’ve seen other brands fail at this.

The thing about all of these costs? They decrease as making clothing in all sizes becomes the norm. Suddenly everyone in fashion school learns how to grade for more bodies. The research and development around sizing doesn’t need to be done again because it’s already done and brands just continue to fine tune it. Customers no longer have to be wooed because they already know they can buy clothing in their sizes. Stores are already configured to stock all sizes and the larger mannequins are already in place.

And here’s the other thing: the cost of this clothing goes down as extended sizing is normalized. And that eliminates a lot of the financial risk, too.

Right now, it costs more to have plus size clothing made than so-called “straight size” clothing.

Sure, more fabric is required to make larger clothing, but the same could be said for size XL garment versus a size small, and we aren’t seeing the whole industry falling apart over that, right?

But as a person who has worked at several brands on extending sizes, I have experienced firsthand how difficult it is to do it successfully. And that doesn’t mean that brands shouldn’t be doing that, but it’s like they are too fearful of failure, I guess? Because it IS possible and I HAVE done it successfully for other companies.

It all starts with this fact: Most brands don’t own their own factories. If you’ve been listening to Clotheshorse for a long time, then you already know this. For others, this might be a big surprise. It was definitely surprising to me when I became a buyer!

Sometimes they work through agents who connect them with factories. Other times they work with vendors who are sort of the “middle man” between the retailer and the factory.

Why is this important? Often getting these vendors and factories to offer extended sizing is a series of negotiations. It should be more common, but thanks to the anti-fat bias that permeates the industry, manufacturing extended sizes is still not the norm! Until we reach a tipping point where most brands/retailers are offering all sizes, the number of vendors and factories who are willing to manufacture larger clothing will remain limited…and that “scarcity” drives up pricing.

Most vendors and factories see manufacturing extended sizes as too risky…and that’s thanks to the fashion industry for not making this the norm a long time ago.

Often this requires larger cutting tables, different equipment for sweater knits, a second pattern/grading, and more samples back and forth to get the fit right (if the retailer is committed to good fit). If producing clothes in all sizes were the norm, rather than the exception, this would just be a normal part of business.

When I was working to get our “straight size” vendors to extend sizes back in 2012 at Modcloth, we subsidized these additional costs like upgrading the cutting tables and production of additional samples by willingly paying more for the plus size units. We were doing everything we could to get more vendors on board.

But that was more than ten years ago…and I can tell you that factories are still charging a lot more for clothing in larger sizes:

Upcharges based on my experience:

$2-4 for t-shirts beyond size XL

$4-6 for button ups/blouses beyond size XL

$6-12 for dresses beyond size XL

Here’s the deal: if most retailers/brands got on board with selling all the sizes, these upcharges would evaporate. Yes, larger sizes require more fabric than smaller sizes. But we already see that with say, a size 0 versus a size 12. Yet, as a buyer, I would pay the same cost for all units within that size range. Any cost conversation with a vendor/factory starts with “how many units per size?” The manufacturer will use that breakdown by size to calculate the total fabric needed and then divide it by the total units being made. The same could be happening with additional sizes, larger sizes remain a “niche” in the world of fashion. See also: clothes for tall people, smaller people, people with larger breasts, etc.

Yeah, making clothes that fit people is “niche.”

One mistake that brands make pretty often is charging higher retail prices for plus size garments than “straight size” garments. This is something that really bothers me because it feels like a “fat tax.” And yes, stupid brands…that makes customers distrust you! And it’s all because they just cannot make the math, well, math!

Ever notice how some brands/retailers charge the same price for all sizes of clothing? That’s because it’s the right thing to do. The larger sizes still cost more to make, so the buyers figure out how to make the math work.

Ready for an example?

Let’s say I am going to order 1000 t-shirts.

600 will be XS-XL and they cost $10.

400 will be 1X-4X and they cost $14.

Rather than charging $28 for the smaller sizes, and $32 for the larger sizes, I charge $30 for all of them.

The company makes the same amount of gross profit (actually $400 MORE) and no one is being subject to an unfair “fat tax.”

It’s really that easy and doesn’t make anyone feel bad.

In my conversation with Lisa, we are going to talk about Old Navy. A few years ago, Old Navy made a splash by announcing that from now on, all of its women’s clothing would be available in sizes 00-30. And less than a year later, it pulled out, reducing the number of items available in all sizes and moving the extended sizing to online only. As I will explain in our conversation, Old Navy did everything right, but saw the initiative as a failure because they were left with a lot of unsold inventory, primarily because they didn’t buy the right quantities of each size. This is something that could have been resolved over time by letting the data show them what to buy for future orders. But Old Navy was unwilling to take that time to get it right. Other brands like Loft and White House Black Market experienced similar outcomes. They were left with a lot of unsold inventory because they just didn’t buy the inventory correctly. And that’s something that happens, right? It can be as simple as “we bought too many maxi dresses in a year when everyone wants mini dresses” or more complicated like “we bought too many 5X, not enough 2X.” The maxi dress/mini dress debacle is mostly unavoidable. But buying the correct quantity by size is easily solved in the next round. Any brand is constantly tweaking their buy by size using historical data.

If I were going to start my own clothing line right now, I would do a lot of things differently than these retailers. And of those things I would do would be to hire one of the planners who worked on the Old Navy size expansion. And I would ask them “how did the sales by size actualize?” We would use that data to order the right quantity by size. It’s just that easy.

If all brands were doing this–or even just a few of the bigger players on the landscape were doing it–that data around sales by size and the best grading, etc etc…all of those best practices would make their way around the industry as employees moved around from company to company. And all of this would be so much easier.

But until one of these brands really sees it through, really gives it the time and investment it requires, we will not see extended sizing become the norm. We will continue to see the industry do a horrible job of dressing most people.

What can you do? Well, you actually DO have power as a consumer.

Demand a change from retailers/brands who don’t offer extended sizing or charge more for it. You can do this via social media, email, and even phone calls! I receive emails regularly from “sustainable” brands who want to partner or be featured on the podcast. And I always turn them down when I see that they don’t offer sizing beyond an XL. And I tell them why. I also tell them that I would be thrilled to revisit the conversation when they do start offering larger sizes, using larger models, and doing the work to dress more people.

Don’t shop with those brands (no matter what size you are) until they change their ways.

Tell your friends why this matters and get them involved.

Two things motivate retailers to make a change: laws and the fear of declining sales. This is actually an issue that is pretty easy to solve with collective action, but we need everyone pushing for this together!

Okay, I think it’s time to get into the conversation with Lisa. But if you have more questions about this topic, send them my way. I am happy to share my industry experiences and how I can see the industry doing a better job! Seriously, I could do that all day and all night!

Alright, let’s meet Lisa!

Amanda:

So Lisa, why don’t you introduce yourself to everyone?

Lisa Michaud:

All right, so I am Lisa Michaud. I’m the current owner of Two Big Blondes. Two Big Blondes has been around, it was established about 26 years ago. And I took over 10 years ago from the prior owner Susan, who owned it for several years. And she had purchased it from the original owners, the Two Big Blondes, Judy and Winnie. And yeah, so I, Two Big Blondes is located in the central district of Seattle, which is where I grew up and went to school and moved away for a little while during college and afterwards, but have moved back to the neighborhood. So it felt perfect coming back to Seattle and back to my community and then buying this business right here where I grew up.

Amanda:

So what motivated you to buy the business? Because, I mean, this is me as a person who lives in Texas. But it feels like Two Big Blondes is sort of legendary in Seattle. Every time I have a conversation online about places to buy plus-size clothing, Two Big Blondes comes up multiple times every single time. Lisa Michaud:

That’s

Amanda:

What made you decide like this is the right business for me?

Lisa Michaud:

Well, again, it really was a culmination of many things and that’s why it felt so right at the time. So I’m a lifelong thrifter. I’ve always loved thrifting and buying secondhand. I have to say initially it was out of just economics and liking to find a good deal, you know.

Amanda:

I get it. Same for me. Yeah.

Lisa Michaud:

And then, you know, and the art of the hunt is fun, you know

finding what’s out there. And so I’ve always shopped that way. And then I was also when I went off to school, I graduated from UC Santa Cruz in Women’s Studies and Sociology. And I got involved in nonprofit work and legal work. And so owning a business was really never on my radar.

But what happened was I ended up moving, this is a little background, more background about me moving to the Caribbean and started, I know that’s a big jump there, but I started a started a business with my now husband. and we ran a little tourist business down there. And so that kind of got my feet wet in terms of actually literally wet because it was a boat business, taking people on sightseeing tours and it was amazing. That was on the island of Saint Lucia. And so that but that, you know, kind of opened up the world to me of owning a business and running a business. And so We lived down there for a little while, came back to Seattle. I was worked in again nonprofit world for a while. And then when our kids were small, we went back down to St. Lucia. And when I was coming back, so this was about 11 years ago now. Like I said, we’re moving back to our neighborhood. And my aunt, Susan, owned the business at the time. And so she asked if I was interested in buying the business from her. She was ready to retire and slow down a bit. And at the time it felt kind of overwhelming, but she said, well, just come and, you know, work here for a little while. So yeah, I instantly fell in love with the store. It was, it felt like home because of, like I said, the community where I grew up, it felt like home because it was a community of fat people and plus size, mostly women, but all kinds of people that were really felt like a community here. We supported each other, we are, you know, held each other up so that that community is really important to me. I love the running the business side of things. I had done enough accounting and, you know, just data entry management and some of my other jobs that came naturally to me. Again, my aunt Susan owned it before me. So she was a great mentor for me for a couple of years really.

And then there was a creative side because I’ve done like graphic design before and some of that creative work. So that was kind of fun to think about marketing and doing flyers. And so it just really all. It fell in my lap, but it just was all at the right time for me. And so it just, it just felt good.

Amanda:

I mean, it seems like it was meant to be, because a lot of the things that you just talked about, like enjoying to do when it comes to business, are for a lot of the clients and students that I work with, it’s like the stuff they dread doing the most.

So I think if you love doing those things, or even have an affinity for it, not necessarily love, it’s like a sign that you should be a business owner, for sure,

Lisa Michaud:

And it was different because like I said, I had worked in nonprofit world before social services. And actually, that’s another element I forgot to mention is that we do have an affiliated nonprofit called Seattle Women’s Assistance Fund that my aunt had set up, but I’ve continued. And what we do with that is things that are donated to the store. We have a program that helps people in need, might be homeless, might be low income, people getting back into the workforce, and we get free clothing for them. There’s that social work and community side of things as well.

It’s running a business and definitely making a profit is a challenge and something I’m working on too, but there really is that community side of things. It feels good. while I’m doing the business part of things as well.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think just based on conversations I’ve had with other people, in fact, I mentioned Maggie Greene when you and I were getting set up and when

I told her that, I was like, oh, hey, guess who I’m recording with? She was just so excited to hear because she’s such a big fan of the store.

And you’re doing something that is not common, unfortunately, which we’re gonna

break down in a million different ways in our conversation. But I thought we could get started by talking about, you know, Two Big Blondes is a consignment shop. And sometimes I take things for granted that people know things because I have been such a secondhand shopper my whole life and consignment has been a big part of that for me. But do you want to explain for those who don’t know and might think consignment is the same as a thrift store or something, what that is and how it works?

Lisa Michaud:

Yeah, thanks for bringing that up because I didn’t understand it that well myself even before I got involved. And a lot of people do walk in and they think it is a thrift store and so it’s a good distinction to make. So basically, we take clothes from people bring us their clothes, we go through the items, we decide what is in good shape, what we think is you know, right season, right trends, and then we sell it for people. So for us our consignment period is 100 days and anything that sells during that time the consigner gets 40 percent and then they also get a 25 bonus if they use any of their account balances not store credit. So it’s worth more if you buy things in the store. So right off the bat, everything we sell, 40% goes right back into the community. It goes right back to the consignors. And it’s as items sell. So we don’t buy things up front. Some models do that, where you bring in your clothes and they’ll give you cash on the spot. And you tend to get a little bit less percentage that way. And then this way, you get a higher percentage, but you do it as items sell, your account balance will grow.

Amanda:

When you and I were preparing for this episode, I told you a theory that I have, and I would love to hear your thoughts on, that I think consignment and people who are really engaged in consignment and using that as one channel for rehoming their clothes. I feel like if you’re a consignment person and you’re thinking already consciously while you own something and are wearing it of its next life beyond you, you actually take better care of it. because you don’t want to depreciate the value of it. I mean, at least I know, like, I have sold some stuff via consignment. You know, my daughter was a small child that was basically how I was able to afford clothes, by, you know, selling what they outgrew and then getting new stuff with the credit, right? But as, you know, personally on my end, I definitely, through my 20s and 30s, used Buffalo Exchange and Crossroads and those kinds of places really heavily. to get my clothes out and bring money back into my home. There were definitely times where I may have been using it to manage my finances a little bit too. But knowing that I was, I never ever looked at any clothing or anything that came into my house as I would be the last person to own it or use it.

And so it really motivated me to take really good care of things. And I do think that if you have that sort of mindset, it does… I don’t know, you’re a little less risky, you’re a little bit more careful with laundering it, that kind of thing. So, I’m gonna go ahead and do a little bit of a little bit of a quick look at the

Lisa Michaud:

Yeah, I think that’s part of a shifting consciousness that people are having more when we think about the life cycle of clothing.

I think in terms of my experience with our customers is it’s really a broad spectrum. So you have some people who really take great care of their clothing, they’re clearly thinking about the life beyond their own use. They bring it in, it’s an amazing shape. Then there’s some people who just bring in things. If they can sell it, great. If not, it’s fine. It gets donated to the non-profit. It’s a

way to like. not quite take it to goodwill or you know another place where you don’t really even know what happens to it.

But that’s and that’s a nice thing about having this nonprofit component is people know if we can’t sell it or we don’t think it’s right for our consignment at the time that it’s still going to a place where people really get what they need. But yeah I agree that as we kind of think about the circularity of clothing and the trying to be better stewards of this earth that we’re thinking about not just throwing, wearing something a couple of times, and then it gets thrown away.

Amanda:

I think for a lot of people, and I love that we’re talking about consignment, because I think that this is an option that a lot of people forget exists. It was actually really big in the 90s.

I did all this research into secondhand, and I was like, wow, I do remember consignment being a big deal. And I still, you know, there are, in various places I’ve lived, there are, top of mind, a couple consignment stores, but it’s not as prevalent. And I think. Maybe part of that is that people are selling stuff online on their own, but I also think a part of it is that it’s probably a challenging business if you’re not getting more and more people to understand the importance of shopping secondhand.

Lisa Michaud:

No, that opens up this whole area that of course, I’m super interested in and I love to think about like why aren’t there more of these? Because we have, I mean, not only just consignment in general, but especially plus size. We have people who are visiting from all over the country, and they’re just like, oh, I wish I had this where I live. And I get it. It’s we are so lucky that we have this. And I say we, even as the owner, because like I said, I didn’t start it. But we have this in Seattle where it’s been around for so long. We have a lot of square footage in our store. We have a lot of variety people have known, so they know about us, so they have been coming for years. But it is a hard business too. And so I have been seeing a lot of even other consignment shops around the country kind of struggling. I mean, of course, COVID, we can’t, you know, forget about all of that. Where there seems to be a demand for secondhand is going up, but then I’ve seen even big companies close or be struggling financially.

The economics of secondhand is just really fascinating to me as well.

Amanda:

It is to me as well. And when you and I were talking a long time ago at this point, I remember one thing we talked about was pricing, right? Because this is like, I have to say, you know, I mean, you know this too. There is a lot of anti-reseller rhetoric happening on social media. There are a lot of things that people who work in the secondhand industry are basically being scapegoated for, like higher prices at thrift stores and. less product to thrift stores. A lot of it is really based on myths and opinions.

But the thing that always comes back is the price. Whether it’s a price that a reseller is charging, or a thrift store, or certainly consignment store as well, that it seems that there is a lot. I mean, it’s not even that it seems. I know this, that living in this century, in this fast fashion era, has really skewed our sense of what clothing should cost, what is a value in clothing, what is the value of clothing even, and you

know, clothes right now are cheaper than they were in the 90s. Nothing else is even close to being like the same price even much less cheaper. And so you can see like it’s really skewed and it seems like, I mean, I would love to hear your thoughts on this. I put the ask out there on social media a few weeks ago because there were a lot of people who seemed to believe that. The moment you wear clothing, you take the tags off, the value diminishes to almost nothing, right?

And that secondhand clothing is significantly less valuable than new clothing. And new clothing is already so cheap that I think it gets to a point where it’s like, if you subscribe to that line of thinking, then secondhand clothing should all be like $1. And that’s that. That’s not going to keep thrift stores in business. That’s not going to allow resellers to make a living. It’s certainly not going to make consignment stores work on either end. Because when it comes to a consignment store, the people who are consigning their clothing to you, they want to make money back off of it too. So it’s not just you that it serves. It’s them as well, right?

So do you get a lot of weird push, I don’t know, weird is maybe not the best adjective. Do you get a lot of pushback about pricing?

Lisa Michaud:

I get some. So I was just talking about this, was training a new employee this morning and talking about our values. And one of our values is affordability. But that of course is very subjective. So what feels affordable to one person is totally different than another. We have people that walk in and we do have some of our designer pieces up front. And so they see those prices and they’re like, oh, why is this so expensive? You know, and it’s like, well, that was originally $400 and we’re selling it for 65. So I get that walking into a secondhand store, they see $65. That feels like a lot. But in, you know, in perspective, it’s not. And then other people, you know, I might ring someone up and their total comes to $200 and one person would be like, Oh my gosh, what a great deal. Because if they go to torrid and buy three items, that’s $200. You know, even torrid so which is not the highest quality I love torrid for the fashion but yeah that it’s not the high quality versus another person will, you know, that 200 is just not, you know, it’s way too much for their budget. So, so knowing that that is the case, and I have had a few people that, you know, if they either online or in person really block at the prices, and I always look at it, it’s like, hey, I’d love, this is a great opportunity for me to explain our pricing structure and why it costs what it does. Not to mention that Seattle in particular is a very expensive city to live

I mean, right now our minimum wage is $18.69 an hour. And I pay everyone more than minimum wage. So there’s, of course, personnel costs. There’s rent. There’s all these other expenses. And yeah, it does take work. It’s not, you know, it’s a consignment. So 40% straight ahead goes back to the consignors. But. It also takes work and energy to get these clothing out, you know, out on the floor, and much less to get them online.

I really enjoyed that conversation that you started because it even helped me kind of think about our pricing structure a bit, too. because we have for the most part based our pricing on the original retail and do a lot of research around that, especially if it’s a brand we don’t know as well. And so part of that is to get a percent back to the consigner so

that they, you know, it’s like well if they spent $200 on an item and you know they’re only getting $20 back that feels a little, you know, underpriced.

So part of it is based on retail, but it’s also based on, of course, you know, style, quality, what kind of shape it’s in, when we especially get into our vintage items, uniqueness, and all of that. But I think there is having that conversation kind of even shifted my thinking a little bit about the value of the work that we put into this and accounting for that and the price. And then that being said, even with our pricing, we have as a store, four really massive sales, store-wide sales a year where we go up to 90 and 95% off. So there’s always opportunities to get things for a couple dollars, even designer items for less than $10. Yeah. And then… We also have a bag sale twice a year where we sell a 13 gallon bag of clothing for $10 and all of that supports our non-profit. Some people that they come twice a year and that’s all the shopping they can afford and that’s what they do. And so we have those opportunities to reach people that really don’t have much of a clothing budget.

But obviously we need to also make enough money to pay the rent and pay employees and pay myself a little bit, hopefully. So yeah, it is a challenge and I’m kind of, I’m growing and thinking about it a lot right now. Especially because, you know, since COVID, we obviously took a massive hit business-wise. we’re still you know kind of struggling to get back on our feet and you know people’s how they shop has changed. It’s interesting when things get hard economically think more people would shop second hand but that means kind of bringing in new people that maybe weren’t used to shopping secondhand. So that’s a different marketing and outreach versus the people who have already been coming. They probably are also cutting back at being able to buy as much. And the big hit with COVID was that people just weren’t going anywhere. So they didn’t need new clothes and even though that’s you know that’s it’s it’s rebounded some but not not the same way it was before.

Amanda:

I mean, I feel like I was just talking to my husband about that this weekend. I was like, I feel like we live in this weird in-between time. Because the pandemic isn’t over, right? But we’ve been kind of forced for, I don’t know, the last year and a half to pretend that it is. And it’s weird. And

it’s really weird, right? And I do think like, you know, someone might be listening to this and saying like, oh, my life is completely back to normal and I go to parties and I go out to bars and I go dancing and all that. But like a lot of people don’t. In fact, I go out at all any more.

I think a lot of people also during the pandemic realize that, you know, they maybe they didn’t wanna do that anymore. And these are things that, you know, lead to people buying more clothes, right?

Lisa Michaud:

even going to work, you know, especially in tech heavy Seattle, a lot of people get to still work from home.

And they don’t have to get dressed up not that they were dressing up where it is Seattle after all, but you know, work office appropriate attire.

Amanda:

Yeah, I mean, it definitely is a different time. And what really struck me with what you just said is that as the economy has been very challenging, that’s a really nice way of putting it, people who were shopping secondhand predominantly before because of financial reasons are now going to be able to afford to buy less. And you’re seeing this new customer coming in. who is looking to spend less money, but maybe not change their quality of life. And these are great people too, like it’s a great gateway into secondhand shopping. And something that I’ve learned in my research is that this is like a cyclical thing. Like with every generation, there has been a period where more people have gotten into secondhand shopping who were uncomfortable with it before because of the state of the economy. And it kind of turns into a lifelong habit for them. which is interesting because I mean, I’m sure you see this stuff online and if you haven’t, then you’re a really lucky person because I have to see way too much of it, which is this idea that like secondhand is like trendier than ever. And these are people who are like, I liked it before it was cool. And I’m like, it’s always been cool actually. Unless you’re like a hundred years old, then

you know, I wanna hear your stories about what it was like thrifting a hundred years ago. But. You know, this is just like, this is human nature, right? And this is like a, it’s a social trend, it’s an economic trend. And so there is this part of me that is like, this could be a really great time to get more people comfortable with shopping secondhand, because there definitely still is a stigma against it. But I think it’s like, there are so much of the secondhand system that still needs fixing, you know? And I think a big part of that is putting more equity into it. So. You obviously work really hard to make your store equitable to everyone involved. It did not, I did not miss that you said that you pay your staff more than minimum wage, which is great, right?

And that you are really trying to ensure that both your sellers and your shoppers are getting a good deal, right?

Lisa Michaud:

I can’t say that even after 10 years, I’ve totally figured it out.

Amanda:

Consignment is sort of a more difficult model, because I do think like if you look at the places like, you know, Buffalo Exchange, that model where you bring your stuff in, they give you cash or trade and you leave, right? Like they definitely get away with giving you a lot less for your

clothes, even though they might charge the same exact retail price that you would in your store. But it’s the convenience of it and the speed of getting your money, right? Or getting that trade that makes you… cut your losses, kind of. And it’s not necessarily a super equitable situation, really, for anyone involved except for the store. But with consignment, just hearing you talk about all the numbers and making it work, I’m just like, I don’t know how you make it work. It’s really, really challenging. But I think it also, it kind of is like, it really hinges, I think, upon having a really strong community. Around your business, right? Because people are going to come to you and not be shitty about prices because they know that you’re doing the best you can for everyone. And people are gonna come to you to sell their clothes rather than putting them on Poshmark or just donating them or taking them to a place like the Buffalo Exchange because they know that it’s this community hub for one and it will be meaningful to someone else in the community. And on top of that, you’re gonna do the best you can to give them a good situation. And that that is like something I love about secondhand is when it’s going right, it can be a big community builder. Whereas no one’s like, wow, I sure am really into the Torrid community. Well, maybe they are, but probably not. Like, maybe they have a subreddit or something, but that’s like it. It’s not like a community hub where people are thinking about how shopping there has this bigger impact at all, right? Or being a part of, like, people are thinking about being a part of torrid. It’s transactional.

Lisa Michaud:

Yeah, right, it is. Yeah, and I, that’s again, what I love about this business specifically, what gives me, you know, why I come and I work so hard for it. It’s, it’s for the business, but it’s for the community because of the community. And that was also what got me through COVID was people’s support and sending love and you know, supporting us any way they could. And people do come in and they’re, they say that, you know, sometimes people have brought their clothing in and then they donate. Maybe they made some money, but they ended up donating it back to the store or we just had someone come in yesterday where some they paid off. We have a layaway program. And so she came in and said, is there someone who could benefit by me paying off their layaway? And she did that for someone!

Amanda:

I love that!

Lisa Michaud:

yeah, I mean, we really, we have a lot of examples of that. You know, so yeah, there are, it really, people are really dedicated and even if they don’t know who the person is, they know it’s important and they know that we know them so that we can help other people out. And so yeah, it’s really special and it’s also kind of echoes a lot of, you know, you’ve brought up over, especially around the holidays, you know, supporting small businesses. And I just think the impact of small businesses in particular. You know, it impacts the family or person who owns it, but it also impacts our immediate community a lot more than a big corporation does.

Amanda:

I think there are all of these positive outcomes that are kind of like a side effect of small business that have nothing to do with money at all. And it really comes back to that community, being engaged in the immediate physical community in the area, but also building a community around it of. customers and eventually friends. And I just, I think that nobody, like once again, like nobody’s like, oh, I’m a really big, strong part of like the Best Buy community. And I think that there’s all this human connection. Just hearing that your customers would use the money they made to pay off a stranger’s layaway because they knew it would be really good for that person and they could have an immediate positive impact on someone. I mean, that is. incredible because so much of our, like so much business, especially big business is really, it’s based on distrust and like individuality and anonymity and so small business is kind of the exact opposite of that.

Lisa Michaud:

It really is.

Amanda:

So I don’t know if we actually mentioned this yet, which I think is really important to call out that Two Big Blondes is a plus-size consignment store, which makes it even more unique and even more… integral to the community surrounding it. Because this is like, consignment stores, not a lot of them these days, already a rare bird, but then on top of it being plus size focused, I mean, this is like, this is a unicorn, right?

Lisa Michaud:

It is a unicorn, especially because even beyond that, I mean, that we’ve been around for so long, but we’re really lucky because we are in the space that is owned by a family that owned it, way back into the 40s and 50s. Now the grandkids own it. And so they give me really good, decent rent.

Amanda:

Yay.

Lisa Michaud:

So I have, yay, another thing that’s a unicorn in Seattle.

Amanda:

Yeah.

Lisa Michaud:

And… Yeah, and it’s sweet. So we have like the sales floors probably 4000 square feet, and we

have like six to pre COVID we are up to about 10,000 items in the store any given time now are more like six or 7000 items, but it’s a lot and so to have the variety that we have variety of We serve a really super diverse customer base and I mean diversity in every way and size and age and styles and you know, just every kind of kind of style diversity you can think of. So that’s exciting because we have the space to do that. You know, a lot of consignment shops are really small and they have a very, you know, small their own niche that they’re serving. But yeah, and I’m glad you brought that up because I was thinking too about the economics of it and there being more, whether it’s consignment shop or just resale. specifically for plus size and fat fashion, while there is more springing up and people are able to you know reach communities through social media, Instagram, lives, online, it is a challenging business. Nobody’s making tons of money off of this if they’re making any money at all.

And so I think that’s understanding that from a customer point of view is really important because when we do price things, we’re not pricing them to, you know, we’re not making hundreds of dollars on every item right we’re pricing them just to like cover expenses, and that’s it may not even cover expenses so.

Amanda:

Right, right. Yeah, no, trust me, the profit margin you’re working with is significantly lower than any brand new product retailer out there.

It is a challenge. And I think that there is a lot of, I don’t know. It’s the fact that this is a misconception at all is ridiculous. But people think that people are getting rich off of selling secondhand clothing. And

Lisa Michaud:

Yeah.

Amanda:

Like, even ThredUp’s not profitable. So how do you expect small businesses and individuals to just be like, buying a yacht?

Lisa Michaud:

I saw something last, it was recently about ThredUp, in one quarter, now, I might get these numbers wrong, but it was something like $75 million, they might become profitable. You know

Amanda:

Ha ha

Lisa Michaud:

what

Amanda:

ha!

Lisa Michaud:

I’m like, if their quarterly revenue is $75 million and they’re not even profitable yet,

Amanda:

Whew,

Lisa Michaud:

like in a way.

Amanda:

I know, I know. And I’ll just say, my job before the pandemic was working for a rental company. And that’s another business model that’s really hard to be profitable in because there is so much touch of hand, like human hand involved in running that business day to day. It’s very similar with selling secondhand, especially Thread Up where, I mean, you have to take a photo of, photos of everything,

Lisa Michaud:

Right,

Amanda:

right?

Lisa Michaud:

right.

Amanda:

And you have to… inspect everything. And in rental, not only do you have to inspect it when it goes out, you have to inspect it when it comes back in, and you have to do the laundry, and then you have to inspect it again, and then someone has to put it away, and it’s just a lot of manpower to

Lisa Michaud:

Yes.

Amanda:

get things going. And

Lisa Michaud:

Yes.

Amanda:

when I look at the Thred Up business model, I’m just like, I don’t know how you could, I don’t know how you make that profitable. Because the more stuff… you sell to cover your expenses, the more people have to be involved to get that stuff ready to sell. And so it just sounds like a paperwork nightmare to me. Your business, hard enough to figure out, but theirs, I just, it’s way out of my league. It’s too stressful. But I don’t also, I don’t want them to fail because I want people to see these big companies that there is potential in secondhand, and maybe we don’t need to make all these new clothes. I feel like that’s a long way off, but. You know, any success we see is good. I would prefer that people shop from secondhand from, you know, small businesses, individuals, for sure, over ThredUP any day of the week, but I’ll take what I can get, you know?

Lisa Michaud:

Right, right, it’s still secondhand.

Amanda:

It’s still secondhand. So something that comes up constantly in conversations about secondhand, and I know this isn’t gonna surprise you, just because I already told you you’re gonna talk about this, but is that, you know, like, there are… is not a lot of good quality secondhand clothing in larger sizes. And I think we can all agree that starts with the fact that there’s just not a lot of great clothing in larger sizes to begin with.

But then again, you have all this inventory. So it is out there. I mean, do you have advice for people who feel that they just cannot find secondhand clothing in plus sizes?

Lisa Michaud:

I mean, that is a major challenge. I mean, it’s starting with the fact that it’s so hard to find to begin with that people hold on to their clothing much longer. And so often by the time they’re ready to pass it on, it’s not in a shape that is great for resale. However, that goes back to what you’re saying earlier. Like as we… I hope the secondhand becomes more popular, that people will think about that. If it becomes an option for them to resell it, then they’re more likely to do that when it’s still in good shape.

And then, right, where do you go? Because like I said, before people come in our store and they cry because they’re like, I wish we had this where I live. And certainly there’s a market for it.

But is it the right market in terms of, you know, being profitable as a business, right, and getting enough good inventory? Right now, if someone is, especially younger people, or if you’re on social media, there are amazing number of… you know, small businesses just doing their own thing. So if you find a style that you like, you can find people that are selling it on Instagram and other probably TikTok and other social media sites. And… You know, it is harder to do, but it’s also, you know, it’s that commit. It’s not that it’s not out there, but you do have to take more time. So obviously it’s way faster to go on Shein or Amazon and, you know, buy something and get it delivered the next day. But when you do that, you have to think about what are the side effects of that, you know, those choices that we make, right? Versus like taking a little bit more time, but finding higher quality. It’s often. you know, more unique and will last longer. So yeah, you kind of have to make a commitment to it. And that’s, you know, this is one of been our biggest challenges. We have a lot of great inventory in store, but I want to expand. We have a small online shop that we started during COVID. I need a website upgrade. I only have probably about five to six hundred items up there right now, but we have thousands in the store, as I mentioned.

So I am working on, it’s a project I’m working on this year, getting a better space and getting our, all of our websites updated and so that I can more efficiently put stuff up online, but it does. Obviously that takes time and money and effort and so we have to be able to whereas one person can come in and Find ten items and that they in the store and sell you know, they walk out the door and spend a couple hundred dollars Online it might be a one-off here and there so You know, it’s definitely a challenge as as we I want to be able to make our inventory available to more people you know, both from a business point of view, but, you know, also just to have that available for more people, but it does cost more money.

Amanda:

It’s so much work. Unless you’ve done it, you just cannot, you have no grasp of how much time it takes because it’s not even just like taking the photo of the clothes, right? It’s like, you gotta get it on the website and it’s every single item is its own project.

Lisa Michaud:

and especially plus size. So I mean, getting into the challenges of that is like, ThredUp for example, I was on there the other day because I needed to get something for my mom and she’s smaller so we didn’t have anything at our store and I thought I’d go on there. And there’s, they have like three photos and not much of a description.

Amanda:

Oh, and the measurements are almost always wrong. Yeah.

Lisa Michaud:

Yeah. And I did order a few things and the quality was not that great. So, I mean, it was, you know, it was fine, but, um, it, it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t to my standard. But yeah, so I really want our webs, you know, for selling online, I want to be able to put measurements because, you know, sizing, especially for plus sizes all over the place.

What does a 3x mean? You know, if you know the brand, you might know it. But if you don’t know the brand, so doing measurements, you know, it’s great when people can do photos on real people. But that, you know, obviously is another expense. and enough of a description that people know what they’re getting. I absolutely have to do returns because just because it’s a 1x or 2x and that’s what you normally wear doesn’t mean it’s going to fit you in the right places.

Amanda:

Totally.

Lisa Michaud:

Every brand has different proportions so you know you have to offer returns and I want to use our experience and our 26 years of knowledge around this stuff to offer a good shopping experience for customers, but again, all those things add up.

Amanda:

Yeah, no, it’s no easy project. I mean, anybody who is reselling online is working really hard.

Lisa Michaud:

Yes, I agree.

Amanda:

It’s unseen labor, but it is a lot more work than anyone who hasn’t done it thinks.

Lisa Michaud:

one more thing I wanted to add about having more options online and just buying secondhand becoming more acceptable. One of the latest trends I’ve seen is more and more brands doing their own resell sites.

And again, I think it’s a great way to get people to think about buying secondhand when they had not thought of it before, because for example, if you really love, I mean, Eileen Fisher has been doing it for years. So they’re a great kind of role model in that trend. If you’re used to buying that brand and then you go on their website and you say, oh, they have something like this and it’s second hand and it’s a third of the cost, well you know maybe I’ll check that out. And I know that’s a growing business, a lot of brands are announcing resell sites. It’ll be interesting to see if they find that that is worth it to them for their you know if there’s a profit in that or not. I think they also help. kind of control that it’s authentic if it’s a especially if it’s a designer or premier designer brand which of course is a challenge when you’re working in second hand.

But yeah I think I think people are trying a lot of things right now. Obviously they’re not all going to work out but I at least like that people are making attempt. However then the problem is that when they don’t succeed or something doesn’t work out, it becomes, oh, that didn’t work for them. So other brands say, oh,

And I think that’s also, yeah, that’s also happening in the plus size market where, for example, oOd Navy, you know, made this big deal about, you know, having it extended sizes, not only online, but in their stores and they. did a lot of things right on that, you know, presenting the new lines and marketing. And then yet it wasn’t even a year later and they were cutting, you know, cutting back on that line. Loft just announced they’re not going to be making, you know, plus sizes anymore. So that’s, so when you have such a small pool of examples to start with, and then they stop doing it, it just, it scares everyone else off. So.

Amanda:

Totally, totally. And I think like Old Navy is an interesting one to me because I read a ton of different articles and interviews about what went wrong, what went right. And it

was so interesting to me that Old Navy would abandon it after a year because they put years of preparation into it.

Lisa Michaud:

What happened there?

Amanda:

I know, I know. So they did so many things the right way, and they invested a lot of time and money into it upfront. That’s once again why I’m like, why did you just give up? Like they. worked really hard to ensure that all sizes were the same price, which to me is the standard and how it should be. But a lot of retailers do not. They charge and upcharge for large sizes, which makes no sense to me, because if we’re gonna charge based on size, then I guess even a size large would be more expensive than a size small. Is that really how we wanna run a business, right?

Lisa Michaud:

Right.

Amanda:

And they did something that I think is… I mean, department stores are still doing this, which bugs me, where they like tore down the wall and between the plus department

and like regular, whatever you wanna call it, women’s clothing. And now customers could shop just by style rather than size. And like really that should be also the standard, right? But most importantly, they spent two years, two years and I don’t even know how much money, it’s probably so much money we can’t even imagine, on the fit. And that’s what it takes to get it right. And actually, I mean, I don’t know if you heard anything, but I didn’t find anything or hear anything about the fit being the problem. The fit was good.

Lisa Michaud:

Yeah, I agree.

Amanda:

But then where it went wrong, I mean, number one being that they just didn’t give it enough time because these things take time. You have to gain the trust of your customer.

Lisa Michaud:

Right.

Amanda:

Right. And that’s where so many of these companies go wrong is they think that they are just going to put the clothes out on the rack and everyone’s going to come in and buy it and that’ll be the end. And it takes so much more time than that. But. On top of that, they didn’t really do their research in terms of the ratio of sizes selling by sales volume.

And so what happened is the sizes in the middle of the range sold out really, really fast. And

they were left with a lot of inventory in the smallest sizes and the largest sizes, which to me is like a very, like I’m shocked because I have in the past, at one of my jobs at ModCloth, all of our planners basically came from Gap or Old Navy. And they were so smart and so data driven and so strategic. Like some of the smartest people I’ve ever worked with. And I just assumed that everybody who’s working in the inventory planning areas of these companies are similar. And so I don’t understand how they messed up the sizes so much like in terms of how much they ordered. But then they, you know, they had customers coming in not finding the sizes that they wanted being really disappointed. Then they had to mark down all these extra units they had in the smallest and largest sizes. And then they were like, okay, we just give up. And I just can’t believe they did that so fast.

Lisa Michaud:

Yeah, it felt like a betrayal almost because it’s really, and also this was what? This was like a year or two ago to 2021.

Amanda:

Yeah, not a reat time for retail and shopping.

Lisa Michaud:

Exactly, like how many stores were even open? I mean, I guess they were, but yeah. It’s very strange. I’d love to hear more of that backstory if it ever comes out. It’s very strange that they didn’t spend more time on it. And yeah, just really disappointing because sure you can we make mistakes but then you learn and you can do better.

Amanda:

Exactly. Look, they even could have been taking pre-orders on the sizes they were sold out of and getting them to the customers. There are a million ways they could have made this better and gained the trust of their customer

Lisa Michaud:

yeah, and also because Old Navy actually did have plus size, it wasn’t like a completely new market already. You know, they didn’t, they expanded their sizing and made it more available in stores. But they, even prior to all this, they, they were known as, you know, good fit for at least a 1X, 2X, maybe even 3X. So. they could have really built on that rather than just shutting it down.

Amanda:

I mean, a lot of the things I was reading and hearing were basically like, if Old Navy can’t pull this off, then no one can.

Lisa Michaud:

Righ

Amanda:

And also, Old Navy’s buying power, and therefore, power to influence the entire industry. is massive. And so if Old Navy makes carrying, I wanna say they were doing sizes double zero through 30 in everything. If Old Navy makes that the norm, then it will be the norm for the industry. And so them backpedaling is really, it has this halo effect.

Lisa Michaud:

Definitely.

Amanda:

Really, really frustrating. And also, you know, another great thing about Old Navy that we have to call out is that it’s a lot more affordable, right? I read one article that was sort of like talking about Old Navy and where it went wrong, but then saying like, but here it’s going really well for Universal Standard. And I was like, that’s apples and oranges, because the only thing they have in common is extended sizing, but the price point and the aesthetic are very different.

Lisa Michaud:

very different, very different, yeah.

Amanda:

Right, right. And so I didn’t think that that was a really fair comparison. But I would say something like loft maybe would be. So I’m not surprised that Loft pulled back on it too. They probably also saw that Old Navy was. And unfortunately, that’s how the industry works. It’s all about copying one another.

Lisa Michaud:

It is and the Loft, the company that owns Loft, I think was going through bankruptcy, you know, so they’re, they’re gonna, you know, but the fact that they cut back the plus size, I just think, in general. businesses, if you’re going to commit to something and try something, like you said, you know, you learn from mistakes and you, you know, is it a commitment to this or is this a trend? Oh, let’s try this. Let’s, let’s do plus size for a little while, you know?

Amanda:

You see fast fashion brands getting into all kinds of things that they have no business getting into because they require a lot more R&D and investment. You know, like whether it’s bras, I mean, I bought a bra from Forever 21 one time and I mean, like, why did it even exist? It was so terrible. Or like, you know, there was a while where like all of the fast fashion brands were like, oh, we’re gonna make bras in underwear now. Like, that’s a trend.

And then it was, we’re all gonna make makeup brands, like our own makeup and get into that. And who knows what would be next? It would be great if like they could just focus on getting things to fit better and last longer. But I do, you know, I like even thinking about Loft, like going into bankruptcy or Old Navy, investing all this time and money and walking away. I gotta tell you, when I was at ModCloth, our business had plateaued a long time ago and what was really allowing us to grow our expansion into plus size and continuing to extend sizes in more and more stuff and build that assortment and make it more diverse and keeping it as affordable as possible. That was what was driving our business.

Lisa Michaud:

Yeah, and ModCloth has always been very popular with our, you know, my customer base. So when it started coming in, you know, I love the kind of fun, trendy retro looks.

I think overall the fit was pretty good.

Amanda:

I mean, they worked really hard on it. I will say, of anywhere I’ve worked, so many places I’ve worked, we would have fittings. And it was like, well, it’ll fit someone. And then we like, we’re done for the day, but ModCloth would be like, we don’t care if this order is three months late, we’re gonna get it right. Because wewanna have our customers trust, right? Like that was the thing.

Lisa Michaud:

Right.

Amanda:

Everybody knew that like, we had to take the time to do it right, or we were never gonna get a second chance.

Lisa Michaud:

Yeah.

Amanda:

And that’s why we had such a loyal customer base. Now I know after… Right around the time I left ModCloth, they brought in a new CEO, and he was very against the size expansion project. To me, it’s no coincidence that he came from Urban Outfitters, honestly. And then when they sold off to Walmart, I still think they were doing their best to continue to keep the sizes going, but I don’t know how it’s going now, because they’ve been sold again, to like a, or maybe even

Two times, to like a private equity company. So I don’t know. No one. I know works there anymore. Like finally because they laid so many people off. But I always felt like ModCloth had this opportunity to like take over the world because,

Lisa Michaud:

They really did. Yeah, when they were sold to Walmart, I remember when I read that and talking to people about it, and we’re like, No!

Amanda:

You know, my friends who were still there when that happened were actually like, you know what was cool is they were like, no, you just keep running as your own business. We’re just gonna help you with a lot of the logistical stuff that you really struggle with. So it actually made the business more efficient and things arrive on time, but they basically had like freedom to make whatever they wanted still. But I think that like it, you know, Walmart was like, we’re not getting, making the money we thought we were gonna make, so. It’s too bad. I think that, I hope that something that isn’t mod cloth, but is doing that same thing like emerges, because I think they also offered an aesthetic that you couldn’t get in general, but especially in extended sizes. And you know, like for a long time, like the only places you could really get larger size clothing would be like a Lane Bryant, which is like a store for your mom, or a department store where the clothes would look like they were for your mom, right?

Lisa Michaud:

It’s nice to have brands that are younger, trendier looks, you know, having extended sizes, but then, you know, we still have that challenge of, you know, but not fast fashion.

Amanda:

I know, I know. So that was gonna be my next question for you because one thing I have noticed for years now is that while these sort of like middle or middle market or more expensive brands have done everything they can to like not dress people of more sizes, like the fast fashion brands and like the ultra fast fashion brands like Shein have been like on it from day one.

Lisa Michaud:

Yeah, they have. Yeah. And no wonder people are buying it, right?

Amanda:

I know. I mean, do you see a lot of that coming into the store?

Lisa Michaud:

Um, yeah, we do see it. I mean, definitely more. And the, you know, I’ve been here for 10 years now, so it’s definitely increased as time goes on. And, um, I will be honest, I’m not completely settled on what to do about it. Even from the time I started, there were some, um, brands we didn’t take that were sort of lower end, um, Target, Walmart stuff, even for a while and I haven’t been so great at sort of updating, as new brands have come in, like, do we take them? Do we not take them? There’s this challenge between definitely, like, if again, if we mostly price based on original retail and something was $10, how do we price that, right? Because…

Amanda:

And make it worth your time.

Lisa Michaud:

and make it worth the consignors time

Amanda:

Right.

Lisa Michaud:

and you know all of that. So there’s that combined with well especially you know Fashion Nova and Shein and some Forever 21, they do have fun young trendy things that people want to buy and I do feel like there’s a level of well it’s better that it gets resold and reused and used again than it going to a landfill or or a dumpster somewhere or Ghana. So there’s that challenge. So we do take some of it. But I try to be really mindful of that as well, because we obviously don’t want our whole store to be the one we can’t definitely cannot make a profit on just reselling that. But also, we want people to come in and feel like, oh, this is quality stuff.

Amanda:

Yeah.

Lisa Michaud:

But it’s fun to have a few, you know, let’s throw this on cheap and fun and I’m going to wear it to a party kind of stuff too. So I’m not, I don’t feel 100% that I have the right answer to that. But I do try to really be conscious of it in terms of both. having a wide variety of styles and trends, but also not letting it flood our store because we do want high quality, reasonable things, yeah.

Amanda:

Right. I mean, so if someone comes in with a whole bunch of Shein or Forever 21 or what have you, what do you do? And do they end up taking the stuff with them? Or are they sort of like, oh, you can just have it? What happens usually?

Lisa Michaud:

Yeah, so people have a choice when they bring us their consignment. They can either, we’ll go through it, the items we take, they, you know, we’ll go on to consignment, the items we don’t take, they can choose to pick up and do whatever they want with it, or they can choose to donate it through our nonprofit. And so, the vast majority of items that are donated are get into somebody’s hands somehow. And so that they’re not just ending up in the garbage or ending up, it’s going to somebody that will wear it. And so it is being reused in that way.

We have some things that are just too stained or just too damaged. I try to sort that out. We sort that out and it’ll go to some sort of textile recycling. I’m actually really excited because one of the ways that I want to kind of, sorry, I’m stumbling on my words here, but one of the ways I want to expand my business a bit is to support sustainable fashion through other ways, not just reselling

secondhand clothing, but also through mending or you know, learning about how to take care of your clothes. You did a great series on that with Maggie Green and Tracy Pyide, I believe, about, you know, the ways to launder and, you know,keep things fresh and looking good. But also I just had a local designer, fashion designer come in and she’s gonna be using some of the textiles for, to launch her line of um clothing that’s made from all you know upcycled and repurposed fabrics so that’s exciting so there’s other ways to use you know the fabrics that come in um but it is a challenge because ultimately it’s these items are cheaply made the fast fashion is cheaply made and low quality um fabrics and at some point it’s not going to be wearable or reusable Um, so I, in the perfect world, they just wouldn’t even exist in the first place.

Amanda:

It’s a perfect storm of all kinds of bad things all at once that allow Shein to be the best option for so many people, you know?

And it’s not a good deal for anyone, no matter how much they pay for it. It’s just not great. The thing that strikes me is I see so much sheen at the thrift stores. It was like I’d never seen it, but I’d heard of it. And then one day I saw a piece and then it was like the flood gates opened. And

Lisa Michaud:

Yes.

Amanda:

now every time I go thrifting, I see more and more. And one thing that I noticed is that the vast majority still has the tags on it.

And that made me wonder if the sizing wasn’t good.

Lisa Michaud:

Yeah, I think all the clothes, I mean, it’s even worse than Shein is like all the clothes that come through Amazon.

Amanda:

Oh, seriously, that is like, I would say if I had to choose between the two for myself, I would pick Shein because the Amazon clothes are shocking.

Lisa Michaud:

Yes, shocking. So at least Xi’an 3X, there’s a 4X, I think could probably fit 24, 26.

But you’ll get a garment that says 3X, and it won’t even fit a 14 that clearly came through China or Asia somewhere and probably through Amazon. And those are the ones, too, that were really probably won’t be taking for our store just because it’s the sizing is off, the fit is off, and just the quality is so low. Yeah.

Amanda:

Yeah. Yeah, it’s really, really bad. I think Amazon’s stuff is like, I don’t even understand it. And I think that Amazon’s the largest clothing retailer in the United States now. And

a big part of it is driven by all this random stuff that is not real brands, that is often copies of nicer things.

Lisa Michaud:

Yes.

Amanda:

Right? even down to like stealing the photography from the original brand. But I think how the business keeps rolling is that Amazon spends so much money on like affiliate articles. So like everyday BuzzFeed will have something that’s like the 10 best summer dresses from Amazon or like Refinery29 or BuzzFeed. I mean, any of them, any of the platforms will be like more stuff you could buy from Amazon and it will look appealing in the picture. And you’re like, oh, well, this website is saying I should buy it. And then you go read through reviews and it’s like scandalous.

Lisa Michaud:

I don’t know how they take those photos. They must take a really good garment and take the photos and then do reproductions. I don’t know. You probably know better than me, but when you see what comes in the package, it’s like, what? Is this even the same thing?

Amanda:

Apple News serves me articles like that all the time. Listicles, I guess, is what they really are. And then I sometimes will be like, I’m feeling really troll-y today. Let’s go see what they’re

trying to sell. And I actually, I don’t know, something that helps me really relax is reading product reviews. Or reviews on Google Maps, honestly, just reviews. I love hearing what people talk about in reviews. And The reviews for these clothes are always pretty ridiculous. The pictures are funny.

But yeah, sizing was already complicated enough 10 years ago. But it’s just like, who knows what size anything is at all ever at this point.

Lisa Michaud:

Just real quick on the sizing, it’s obviously a challenge for us as things come in, because they come in with so many different sizes. And what does that mean? What does a 1x mean? What does a 3x mean? And we, and how do you organize that in the store by size, right?

So we actually change most of the sizes into numbers. So we start at size 14 and go up to as high as we get in. Right now, we have up to a 9x. But we mostly have up to 34, 38. And so we’ll have a 1x. let’s just say from Lane Bryant. Well, Lane Bryant does numbers. But like a Torrid one, it technically is 1X. They call that a 1416. So we’ll put it under 14W14s. But a 1X in one of these other fast fashion brands, it might not even be a 14, right?

And then we’ll have. let’s say Women Within is a brand specifically for plus sizes and they have like their 2X is a 26W. So we do try to change it to what we think or we know certain brands run small. So we’ll like it’ll say 3X but we’ll put it under 16W because you know 16 Women’s but then even within the 16s, there’s straight size 16s and then women’s 16s. So it’s a challenge. That’s part of our customer service is saying, well, let’s try up and down the size, you know, because what fits is, you know, all over the place. But that is a big problem. Another hard part about putting things online is like, I want to be accurate about what the label says, but I also want people to be able to find the clothes that fit them. So how do you choose, you know, what category to put this under?

Amanda:

Yeah, I mean, like, I always tell people, like, OK, well, you really need to, like, measure comparable clothes and compare the measurements. Like, that’s usually the best. Because sometimes even measuring your body isn’t exactly going to be right either, depending on how the garment is cut. But I mean, shopping for clothing online, no matter what size you are, is a really risky endeavor at this point, because, like, sizing means nothing. I can’t emphasize that enough to people that the size you wear means nothing.

Lisa Michaud:

It means nothing.

Amanda:

And then to hear that one retailer’s one brand’s 1X is another person’s 4X or something is just feels like my brain’s going to explode.

Lisa Michaud:

And yet we’re so tied to those numbers.

Amanda:

I know.

Lisa Michaud:

It’s amazing when people walk in and they say, well, what? I’m a size 16. And you might encourage them to try different sizes because of that exact reason. And they’re just adamant. No, no, no. I’m not 18. I’m not a 20. And just the. societal pressures that we’ve grown up with and internalized and, you know, it’s really tough to, you know, but we really strive to meet people at where they’re at. I mean, that is a big part of our community here as well. People are very, I was talking about diversity and customers, it’s like we have a diversity in where we are with accepting our bodies, feeling comfortable. One person is feels great wearing crop tops and showing a lot of skin. And other people are just very modest. And I mean, it’s not just about modesty for showing skin, but they’re just how comfortable they want to be. They want to, you know, so that’s another special thing about this place is that it’s where We’re here, we want to make people feel good in the clothes that they’re wearing, wherever they’re at with that, and we encourage trying different things, but if someone’s not into that, that’s fine too. If they know what they like, then we’re going to try to find that for them too.

Amanda:

I love that. And that’s yet another reason to shop with a small business, really,

Lisa Michaud:

Yes,

Amanda:

because

Lisa Michaud:

yes.

Amanda:

you’re going to get that extra help. Because shopping for clothing, I think, has been really commodified and systemized, especially in the e-commerce area, where you’re filling your cart, you’re checking out. You never communicate with another person. And to be fair, I am the person at the grocery store who uses the self-checkout because I’m so introverted in public. But I do think all of this like, service and support that you provide is incomparable. It’s something that you can’t even put a value on from a price perspective. But helping people navigate through clothing, there’s so much trauma associated with shopping. There’s no way that the inconsistency of sizing doesn’t have an impact on our mental health because society has taught us that we should be hung up on what size we wear. I think having someone there to help you through that. and also respect your comfort boundaries, I thinkis just so remarkable and so special. And I can see why your community is so devoted.

Lisa Michaud:

I was just gonna say that it’s ironic because the thing that would work the best for sizing is knowing our measurements and yet especially in the plus size community, but I think probably all people who have been raised as women and females feel this especially that it’s hard, you know, being measured has a lot of stigma to that. happy with that number,

it’s been given us a value, which it shouldn’t. I mean, it has a numerical value, but it shouldn’t have a good, bad value.

Amanda:

Right, it should just be a way to find the right clothing that fits you.

Lisa Michaud:

Exactly.

Amanda:

That should be it, but we can all agree that for many of us, myself included, there is so much baggage behind it that I could talk about it for six hours and still not have gotten it all out, right?

It’s just like the industry doesn’t do it a disservice by making it more painful, more traumatic, and less accessible. It’s just like, I’ve… There’s been a lot of content specifically this week on NPR about social media’s impact on our brains and our mental health.

And I’m like, yeah, I see all of that, but can we talk about how shopping for clothing is so traumatic? I think if there were a way we could disconnect ourselves from the numbers on the tape measure, it would free us up to think about so many other things. and feel so much happier, but I don’t have an easy solution for that at all, except or like we reboot society, like turn it off and turn it back on again or something.

Lisa Michaud:

Yeah, I know.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah, and just do what we can to support one another and make one another feel valued, and no matter what size they are, you know, that they’re great, because size doesn’t mean anything.

Well, this was such a great conversation. Do you have any? final thoughts, words of wisdom. Do you wanna share?

Lisa Michaud:

I want to thank you for having this conversation for the great content that you put out, having us think about all these issues. I’ve learned a lot myself from your podcasts and your posts. And yeah, I just, I think that just in general, that if we just take a little bit more time and are a little bit more thoughtful about are you know purchasing choices that we can find it takes a little bit more work but that we can find some great finds affordable unique great quality things that will last and and that’s really important part of you know thinking about our environment and longevity of of all of that.

Amanda:

I think that the time and the slowing it down is really important whether you’re shopping brand new clothes or secondhand, right? It really is imperative. And sometimes when I’m falling asleep at night, I will just be scrolling Reddit and basically fall asleep doing it. But a few nights ago, and I need to go back and figure out where I saw it, I read an article that someone posted that was basically like the thing about the eight hour workday or, you know, salary jobs where you work 10, 12 hours, where the goal is you’re supposed to work as much as possible, right? Is that

it pushes people into more consumerism because they don’t have time or the perception of time to slow things down and take their time with what they buy or don’t buy. And it also forces them into consuming other things just because they don’t have time, whether it’s takeout food or services that they pay for. It really like… our economy as it exists right now sort of relies on us never having enough time for ourselves

Lisa Michaud:

True.

Amanda:

or time to think about it. And I know that that is a big ask to ask someone to say, hey, just take a, just slow it down a little bit with when you’re shopping for clothing. But I promise that it won’t be as agonizing as you think. And you’re going to be happier ultimately with what you end up with.

Lisa Michaud:

I agree. And I do, I hate to make it sound like it’s always the individual choice, because ultimately, whether it’s climate change, and like you said, it’s the structure of our work life that it’s really the responsibility of corporations and governments to help, you know, solve these problems. it’s not all just on the individual. I think that’s really important to point out, but

Amanda:

Mm.

Lisa Michaud:

yes, the choices we make do make an impact as well.

Amanda:

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it all adds up. And I think, you know, Amazon being the number one apparel retailer in the United States did not happen just because of Amazon. Many, many of us were along for that ride.

Lisa Michaud:

Yeah.

Amanda:

All right. Well, thank you so much, Lisa. This was delightful.

Lisa Michaud:

Thank you, Amanda. This was very delightful. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk about this and hope that it’ll be a good part of the ongoing conversation about secondhand and plus size fashion as well.

Amanda:

I mean, my hope is that it’s gonna inspire more people to open a consignment store. Honestly, if even one person listens to this and says, I’m gonna open a consignment store, then we have been successful. Ha ha ha ha.

Lisa Michaud:

Yeah, I agree. I mean, again, I see a lot of potential there. And I do ultimately think that the success of secondhand and consignment stores and all of that is going to depend on a bit of an awakening of what the value is of what we’re buying and that the value isn’t just based on, as we said, the original retail, but the value in and of itself and the labor that also goes into that.

Thanks to Lisa for spending so much time with me! I am going to link to all things Two Big Blondes in the show notes. And all week, I’ll be sharing (on instagram) size inclusive secondhand resellers.

One last thing I want to discuss is something I mentioned at the end of our conversation: this idea that hustle culture, long work days, even just the 8 hour work day actually feeds our economy by making us shop more as coping mechanism.

I have been thinking a lot about the link between work (specifically the culture of over time and sacrifice expected by many employers) and our own consumption habits. Our jobs have a major impact on our mental health and physical well being because we spend most of our waking hours at work!

In my own experience working in some really toxic environments, I have seen how feeling tired/stressed/demoralized from my job makes me buy a ton of stuff to make myself feel better: clothes, cocktails, dinners, electronics…all of it. I’ve cited my “worst job ever,” working for a so-called feminist brand. I had no work/life balance; my boss would text me at midnight expecting a response, scream at me on Saturday for not working, etc. Most days I only had time to eat, shower, work, and sleep. Nothing else. The work environment was incredibly volatile and emotionally abusive. Over time I felt as if I had lost control of my own life. This is something that has happened repeatedly in my career and it often leads to self-harm behaviors in an attempt to exercise control over something, particularly around what and when I will allow myself to eat.

I had been thinking about putting together an episode about this, but I was struggling to see the outline of it all. I’m currently in a cycle of very long and stressful work days and I’ve barely had time to think very much about Clotheshorse. Last week, as I was laying in bed scrolling Reddit, I came across a 2014 opinion piece from Business Insider called “The real reason for the 40-hour workweek,” by David Cain. I am going to share this piece in the show notes. Please go give a read!

Cain muses, “The 8-hour workday is too profitable for big business, not because of the amount of work people get done in eight hours, but because it makes for such a purchase-happy public. Keeping free time scarce means people pay a lot more for convenience, gratification, and any other relief they can buy.”

He goes on to say, “The culture of the eight-hour workday is big business’s most powerful tool for keeping people in this same dissatisfied state where the answer to every problem is to buy something…For the economy to be ‘healthy,’ America has to remain unhealthy. Healthy, happy people don’t feel like they need much they don’t already have, and that means they don’t buy a lot of junk, don’t need to be entertained as much, and they don’t end up watching a lot of commercials.”

Seriously, go read this piece. It’s full of bangers like that!

I want to hear from you for this episode!

Let’s talk about the connection between mental health, work, and shopping!

Have you worked for a company with a toxic internal culture? How did you cope with it? How did it impact what you did outside of work?

Have you experienced work-related burnout? And did you find yourself shopping more to make yourself feel better?

Have you found yourself “rewarding” yourself with treats and other spending as a means of coping with work pressures?

Do you find yourself buying things/paying for services because you don’t have enough time outside of work to do things on your own?

You can share your thoughts via a voice memo or an email. Send it to [email protected]

The deadline is Friday, 6/23.

PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM NOT LOOKING FOR GUESTS, I just want a chance to share YOUR thoughts in the episode to round out the narrative.

That’s all I have for you today and I can’t wait to hear your thoughts on this!