Episode 165: Unpacking Dress Codes with Ruby and Maggie

Amanda:

Okay. All right, Maggie, Ruby, everyone knows you. I know everybody is still, still talking about this, the episode we did about gender, but why don’t you both remind everyone of who you are?

Maggie Greene:

Sure, I’ll go first.

I’m sure you remember me. Amanda’s called me a Clotheshorse All Star, which is like one of the finer points on my resume.

I describe my work as sort of the intersection of personal brand and style. So I am the chief everything officer and weirdo in residence at Maggie Green 3Style, which… I describe as an ethical microbusiness on a mission to transform how you see yourself. And I work primarily with what my clients refer to themselves as weirdos and queerdos. That’s a community I’m part of as well. So I should say my pronouns are she, her and I’ll end there.

Amanda:

Cool, and Ruby?

Ruby Gertz:

Hi, my name is Ruby Gertz, my pronouns are she, her, and I am a fashion and costume designer. I also have a small business on the side called Spokes and Stitches where I sell downloadable PDF sewing patterns across a wide size range and two gender neutral fits. I love all things sewing, pattern making, costume history, fashion history. Yeah, I’m very honored to be a, this is my second time on Closed Horse, and thank you so much for having me.

Amanda:

Well, I am excited to talk about this subject with both of you. Back when I was in Japan, I specifically have the memory of creating the Instagram post on a bullet train, asking for submissions, thoughts, experiences on dress codes and school uniforms. And so many people were so excited that the two of you were gonna be who I was gonna break this down with. So. I think there are really high expectations today.

We have a lot to talk about. I said even before we started recording, this may be a two-parter, and by the time you’re all listening to it, you will know whether or not is a two-parter, but it seems like there’s a lot to talk about here. So dress codes and uniforms. I don’t know about the two of you, but when we first started talking about this topic, I was really thinking about this macro level, historical perspective. social perspective, that kind of stuff. And it wasn’t until I took a moment to really sit down and think about this subject on my own that I realized that this has had an impact on many different aspects of my life since I was a child. That many of us every day are existing somewhere within a dress code or uniform situation. So I thought we could get started by just sharing some of our own experiences with it, how it has made us feel, and maybe we’ll probably tie that all into all the other stuff we’re talking about today. So Maggie, why don’t you start by sharing some of your experiences with dress codes?

Maggie Greene:

Absolutely. And like you, Amanda, as soon as we decided we were going in this direction, it just unlocked all kinds of memories and connections and nostalgia. When I think about dress codes, for me personally, like my experience is largely with breaking the rules. Like when I think back, the most sort of standout moments where a dress code was like the focus of the interaction, it was always in situations where I was in trouble or being criticized or questioned for certain choices. So one of the earliest memories I have of that was in middle school, which, you know, I think we all can agree it’s a really tough time socially, biologically, but also like on the wardrobe front, you know, it’s critical. It’s really important, high stakes. And a couple of girlfriends and I decided we coordinated this like well in advance. We were all just as an aside blonde and blue eyed, uh fair skinned. We decided that we were going to coordinate our outfits and our looks for a day. It was like a Friday or something. Black lipstick, black nails, black accessories like full on goth glam Mode, right? Uh at at some point during the day we were called to the office as a group and questioned, judged, and threatened basically. They were like, if some shit goes down today, if anything happens, you know, if there’s any trouble brewing, we’re going to be looking at you all. And it was a school in… Florida panhandle.

Florida may or may not come up in later conversations today regarding dress codes, but yeah. And I just remember thinking like it was it was fucked up to begin with. It didn’t make any logical sense to me. Like we were like pretty good students, you know, the high achievers. Like we definitely weren’t troublemakers. There was no reason other than our physical presentation that questioned and yeah, it was fucked up. So I definitely felt singled out. There was part of me and I think my girlfriends shared this as well. There was like an attractive component was like, this is cool. We’re like rebels and we’re ruffling feathers. Like, although that was not our intention, you know, it was just to be coordinated and I guess visible, but. Yeah, that’s definitely one story. I broke so many rules you all in high school, I got called to the office one time for I had stayed up all night the night before coming up with just the right phrase for this like Velcro letter t shirt situation.

Amanda:

Ha ha ha!

Ruby Gertz:

Oh, I had one of those.

Maggie Greene:

And there’s right, this is like early 2000s, and I mean, I can’t tell you how many different combinations and different, like I had a notebook full of options and there are only so many letters. So there were only so many different combinations I could do that it would be like legible, you know, I could replace an S, the letter S with a dollar sign and that would totally work.

So what I ended up landing on was fellatio apostrophe s fellatios for the number four suckers and I thought it was hilarious thought it was absolutely hilarious and I knew like not all of my peers are gonna get it so it’s gonna be a conversation starter it’s an opportunity

to make like an off-color joke but I was also concerned that like some of the adults like the teachers and staff would be like would totally call me out so I had a little shirt that I wore over it But I got caught in the copy room by a teacher who was not even my teacher who happened to catch a glimpse and read it. He turned beet red and he was like, Oh my gosh. He says, hold on a second. Turn back around. He’s like, Oh my God. He said, has anyone seen that? It’s like, well, yeah. I mean, most people don’t know what the word is, but he’s like, I’m going to go home and tell my wife. But I also think he might have told someone in the office because it wasn’t

long after that, that I got called in. And the it wasn’t like a principal, we had deans at our high school. So it was a Dean. And I remember calling my mom and my mom knew that this was probably going to go down and was just like laughing already about it, like not even a big deal. But the Dean mispronounced the word fellatio and it killed me because I thought like, how can you? How can you get mad at me? How can you get mad at me if you don’t even know the fucking word? Like…

Amanda:

Right.

Ruby Gertz:

How did he say it? Do you remember?

Maggie Greene:

Yeah, it was, oh my gosh, it was like with an Italian flair. It was like Falatiano or something like that. Uh, I don’t think I’ve ever told that part of the story out loud. And I just cringe like hearing that played back in my mind, but yeah. Um, I have, I have other stories, but I want to hear some of yours as well.

Amanda:

I’ll just say, Maggie, your stories, I mean, while I never had the fortitude to create a shirt that referenced Felatio, I saw myself in your story. I underwent a radical transformation in ninth grade, which I think a lot of people do. Like, you get to high school, and you would feel like a little kid. And you’re like, who am I? What’s my identity? And I. got really into alternative and punk music at that point, which meant my style changed pretty radically too. And I’ve talked many times on the pod about how horrible of a parent my mother was, but one thing she did have going for her is that she would let me wear whatever I wanted. So I could go to school looking as wild as I wanted, and I was really into… You know, like thrifted clothing. I wore a lot of vintage, especially from the 60s and 70s. Definitely, if I wasn’t wearing black wet and wild lipstick, there was this other color that was like so dark red. It was almost black. I wore that one forever. So I definitely had a look going on as much as anyone who’s like 14 in central Pennsylvania can. And I was also a straight A student, had been forever a classic overachiever, you know? And nonetheless. I remember the assistant principal who was like total, just the cliche of the assistant principal, right? The guy who like brings you in and harasses you or in like any sort of like school assembly would be like “PEOPLE”, you know, like that.

Just like total cliche, right? That like buzz haircut. He said, I’m keeping an eye on you. I know you’re on drugs. And I was like, what? And he’s like, anyone who’s not on drugs wouldn’t look this way at school. I was like, wow, okay, well, I guess just to spite you, I won’t be on drugs. But it’s just funny, nothing about me changed in terms of my behavior at school, my performance in school, I was in every activity. I was a model student, I just looked different. And it did feel like… I know there was this silent dress code, like technically nothing I was wearing was a dress code violation, but in his mind it was indicative of illegal behavior. I mean, it’s no Felatio shirt, no one can top that, but.

Ruby Gertz:

That was pretty good.

Amanda:

How about you, Ruby?

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, so it’s funny, I, you know, when I was thinking about this episode, it was like, I didn’t not, it wasn’t really until like right before we were recording this, and I was like, well, how does this relate to me personally?

Amanda:

Yeah, I have that experience a lot and I was like, oh wait, dress codes haven’t been a problem for me.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, totally, totally. So I was like, I was trying to think of some stories and I have a lot of stories like from adulthood and like jobs and stuff but I was thinking back like even earlier and I do remember, I don’t think that there was specifically like a dress code in kindergarten but I was also like a very adventurous dresser and maybe this was like some foreshadowing that I was going to go into fashion and be like a pattern maker and draper. But I went through this phase where my mom just had these like yardages of like lace that she had picked up at like a thrift store or something and I would just like wrap myself in them. And there was one time that I was I wanted to go to school in that outfit that was like literally just like, you know, a kindergartener wrapped in lace and my mom was like, I don’t I don’t think this is gonna go over so well. And I was like, no, like let me let me do this and like Bless her heart. She like, basically we lived across the street from my elementary school. So she like walked me across the street. Basically was like, sure, like let’s see what happens. And I believe they sent me home to change. They were like, yeah, you have to have real clothes on, Ruby, sorry. Like you can’t just have like a yardage of lace wrapped around yourself.

Amanda:

I mean, Ruby, this is a problem I even face as an adult because I’m frequently like, sure, it’s just a square of fabric or a bathrobe, but if I put a belt on with it, isn’t it a dress?

Maggie Greene:

It’s a vibe.

Ruby Gertz:

Totally. Like it was attached. I had like tied it somehow, you know, like it was staying on. And I have another memory of, I went through a phase, started in high school, and I think it went through like probably the end of college, maybe even after that, where I decided that I was going to be like that person that wore cowboy boots just like every day as my casual footwear.

I grew up in Massachusetts and like I’ve been a vegetarian since I was three years old. So I have like nobusiness with cowboy boots at all. But I just decided they were really cool. I think I probably saw the movie Footloose or something and was like that, like that’s a good look.

And I remember one time in high school, like, you know, we were supposed to bring clothes to change into in like gym class. And I must have forgotten my gym clothes or something. And I was wearing my cowboy boots, and I just remember the gym teacher like scowling at me with such like, you know, he was so like, oh, you’re wearing those shoes. And I had to like sit on the sidelines basically and just like watch everybody else do gym because I like couldn’t do it in the cowboy boots. And he just, you know, he just like glared at me with like such disdain for like the whole class. And I was like, ah, like what are you gonna do bud? Like, I don’t know, it’s gym class. I don’t get why this was such a big deal. But yeah, so those are my early dress code stories.

Amanda:

You know, this is only tangentially related, and it’s just about having weird shoes, maybe. I have never really confessed this publicly before, but when I was in elementary school, I had to wear orthopedic shoes, like prescription shoes, because I have flat feet, and so I was having a lot of ankle and knee problems because of it, and so here I am, I’m like… third grade, all you want to do is wear like cool sneakers or something, right? I mean, that’s like what it is. And I’m wearing like weird nurse shoes to school.

Ruby Gertz:

Aww.

Amanda:

And I was allowed to only wear sneakers for gym class. And so I’d have to be like embarrassingly like changing my shoes before and after class. And my mom would be like, did you wear your sneakers all day? I’ll be able to tell. Like, it was so mortifying. And it really turned into me like as I reached, you know. my teen years and no longer had to wear nurse shoes to school. I mean, literally nurse shoes, like beige with like weird, I don’t know, like special

Maggie Greene:

like the square toe?

Amanda:

Yes, yes. Which like the last thing when you want to wear in like fifth, sixth, seventh grade.

And it turned me into like, you know, as it happens when you become a teenager, you’re really swinging the opposite direction. And I would only wear sneakers at any situation because I felt like I was like taking control of my life. You know?

Which I’ll assume, and sometimes those weren’t appropriate either, right? Like, you know, at least appropriate according to someone. Just like funny the ways in which we, as we’re growing up, really try to assert our independence and how there are often many systems that sort of say like, no, sorry, you’re not allowed to do that. Or you can, but we’re gonna make sure you feel weird.

Ruby Gertz:

Mm-hmm. Social pressure is a huge thing too. Like I think even if something isn’t like written down or like, you know, it’s not a rule that you could read out of a book or it’s not like on the wall, like there’s still so much social pressure to look and act and be a certain way.

Amanda:

So many unwritten dress codes, really. I mean, we just talked about like half a dozen that

Were not in writing. Like, I’m sure, I mean, okay, maybe Maggie’s school handbook said something about not wearing tees with like objectionable language or something on them and fellatio may have fallen into that, but like, I’m pretty sure they probably never said don’t wear black lipstick,

right? But yet, people took, it’s like a judgment time. Oh man, we gotta get her down to the guidance office. She probably needs a talking to. She’s probably about to take some left turn and ruin her life, right?

Maggie Greene:

So speaking of judgment, I have to tell this story. It’s another I don’t think I’ve shared publicly, but just on the note of judgment and social pressure, we’re all probably familiar with the grapevine or the gossip train, whatever you want to call it. I did not realize that such a thing permeated through the staff and faculty at an institution, but so like… Not too long after the Felatios for Suckers t-shirt incident, I was in another class where a student had told me, like we had the same English teacher but not the same class period, so they were like, I don’t know if you heard this, but so-and-so, I remember her name but I will not call her out publicly here, she so-and-so teacher was talking about you in class, used you as an example in their lecture or whatever. I was like, what do you mean? So apparently, I don’t know what the context was. It was English class. So who freaking knows? But yeah, she was like, so you all know Maggie Green, right? As if what? Like, as if everyone would. That was kind of weird. But, you know, she’s like, she’s that she’s that girl. She’s a sophomore. She’s got all those piercings and short spiky hair. And she wears all those weird clothes. And she just like made this like wild comment and I was like, turns out you’d never think but she’s like one of the nicest people you’ll ever meet. As if like my style choices were in direct conflict with those expectations like, okay, so piercings, maybe especially DIY ones. Like, what a weirdo like she’s violent or like dangerous. I don’t know.

Amanda:

this is like, you know, like the whole like trench coat mafia thing that like suddenly were rounding up all the boys who wear black trench coats to school because they might do a school shooting.

And it’s like, haven’t any of you ever heard of Nick Cave? Like what’s wrong with all of you?

Maggie Greene:

Seriously, it’s a style statement

Amanda:

I know, I know. I think it’s like so, I mean, you know, when I was a kid, when I was a teenager, the teachers seemed like they were impossibly old and had never lived life, right? And they lived in their own weird teacher bubble. But, you know, I’m at the point in my life, and I’m sure both of you are too, where you have friends who are teachers,

And they’re cool. And, you know, I look back and I’m like, I don’t understand. Like, none of my teachers had they, I never heard of like Nirvana or goth culture or, you know, like, raves or like where did they live mentally because I would hope I’m sure teachers today are like oh yeah you know I’m on the internet I know what’s up I don’t know but I just I think it’s so funny how these teachers are just like what like I don’t understand this at all

Maggie Greene:

So out of touch.

Amanda:

Have you even lived if you haven’t tried to pierce your own nose? Come on.

Ruby Gertz:

Hahahaha

Amanda:

It’s like a rite of passage.

Maggie Greene:

Same, yeah.

Amanda:

Ha ha ha. Um, well let’s talk a little bit about like, uniforms and stuff for work. Like for example, I’ve worn a lot of uniforms. Like literal uniforms, not just like dress code. Like at Starbucks, it was the only time in my life I’ve bought khakis. And it felt so just demoralizing to me as a person who, at least at that point in time, primarily wore black clothing. It felt like I was wearing a costume. And it was also like I have to buy something that I would never wear in real life. So it’s just like extra stuff I have to buy. I wasn’t making very much money. One of my jobs at waiting tables, kind of one of my favorite ones in a weird way, was this diner. and I would work third shift there and I would actually make a lot of money because, well, a lot of money to me at that time because all my friends would come and hang out and give me big tips because I would just let them smoke and have as much coffee as they wanted.

And that one, I remember specifically when you started, they gave you two polo shirts. And that sounds like, oh, that’s nice, two shirts, that’s great, but if you work five days a week, you get into a situation where you’re like, I can’t keep these clean. and they smell like greasy food

and they’re polyester, so they also don’t breathe and you just feel, like you put it on and you just feel sort of deflated. Like your self worth plummets. Even though I understand that uniforms like that are so that people know that you work there, right? And you’re not some rando just delivering food and taking orders and it lends a sense of like professionalism and uniformity, literally uniformity and figuratively to the experience for people. But man, I just can’t explain it. I actually really loved waiting tables and I liked my job, but there was something about putting on that uniform that just made me feel like, whoa. I don’t know.

Maggie Greene:

I’m curious Ruby if you’ve had any food service experience as soon as Amanda said. Like the restaurant environment and khakis. It was like not quite triggering but like I’m back there, back

there in that moment.

Amanda:

I can like smell the shirt and it’s a little bit like mayonnaise all the time, no matter what.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, I actually have not had any food service experience, but I’ve worked a lot of like kind of other like blue collar jobs, I would say, or like labor jobs where you’re like in like a dirty environment, like a shop environment. Like I was a bike mechanic when I moved to Philadelphia back in 2017 and like, there was like this expectation that you’re just gonna like get your clothes really dirty all the time. That job, they actually gave us a bunch of branded safety gear to wear, which was pretty cool. On the first

day, they would just be like, tell us your size, and they would just give you one of everything. And it was like, let us know if you need more t-shirts or whatever. But definitely, that stuff got so filthy so quickly. Because we were out in the streets of Philadelphia fixing bikes, and I would just be covered in sweat and grease and street crust. It was so gross.

Street crust. Um, and yeah, and I also actually had a different job. Um, it’s funny when you were saying like you wanted to wear all black, Amanda, because my first job after college was actually working in a dye shop. Um, and so it was like kind of an informal dress code that we had to wear black because you’re splashing dye all over the place. Um, so that was another job where I like I got really dirty. Um, and so I would just, I remember like I also didn’t want to get anything too precious because I’m like, well, it’s going to get ruined. So I just go to the

thrift store and buy a bunch of crappy black t-shirts. But yeah, that always felt kind of like, it was kind of a cool job. It felt like kind of cool work, but also just putting on those black outfits. It felt really, it was like, oh, I don’t get to have any personality today. I’m just this bland laborer going to my dirty job. And I think about that even now, like I work in like a fabrication shop. And so I’m often wearing like outfits to work that like it has to be okay. If I like get some glue on it or paint or spray paint or, you know, whatever other materials and like, I get sweaty. And so it’s like, I often feel like I’m not like, I’ve also had office jobs in the past and that there’s something about like, feeling a little more dignified, I guess, when you’re putting on this outfit, that’s like very like customer service facing versus being like more like. doing more like manual labor where you’re like, I’m just going to be dirty and I’m driving to work. Nobody knows I’m going to work. I don’t look like I’m going to work.

I don’t look professional. I just look like a person wearing like a t-shirt and leggings. It’s interesting. Did you have you also done food service, Maggie? Did you have food service uniforms?

Maggie Greene:

Yeah, briefly, I had like two or three food service related jobs and I just remember like the standard. Some of them had like, you know, sponsored branded t shirts one had a polo, but like khakis were the default and I cannot do them like I almost cannot even stand to look at them like in a store or like on a web page

Amanda:

same.

Maggie Greene:

And I love Twill, I love Denim, I love every other color except that weird like anti-color. It’s just beige.

Amanda:

I just felt so not myself in them and so uncomfortable. Like honestly, what I had to wear in khakis to work at Starbucks, felt more like a uniform than when I was working at the diner and had to wear that polo shirt because I could just wear regular black pants with it. Because I was like, I You know, like fine. But like wearing khakis, that’s not me. You know, and it made me feel like I would be riding my bike to work in those khakis and be like, oh, people probably think I’m the kind of person who wears khakis and I’m not. Like, I can’t explain it, but you know, I mean,

if you know, you know, right?

Ruby Gertz:

Totally.

Maggie Greene:

Yeah.

Amanda:

And it definitely it was sort of like, I mean, this sounds melodramatic, but it was really demoralizing. And I also really loved working at Starbucks, because everybody I worked with was really smart and funny and creative. And it was I liked making drinks for people and stuff. But man. putting those pants on, it was like

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

I had to give myself a talking to every morning to get through it. You know, and they get dirty, it was so weird, what a weird choice.

Maggie Greene:

Yes.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, well fun fact about the history of khakis. I didn’t even write this in the notes or anything, but I was just thinking about it. So I was like, where did khakis even come from? And I believe

they’re actually military. It was actually like military surplus.

Like after World War II, it was like what a lot of people going to college, like on the GI bills would wear to school. Cause it was just like what they had. And it was considered this sort of like poor working man’s like nice apparel, like nice in like quotation marks.

And so yeah, it kind of has this like interesting kind of like working class, like Americana military roots. Um, which is interesting that it’s kind of filtered down into this. Yeah. Like you have the customer service facing jobs.

Amanda:

Yeah, totally. I mean, you see it like if you go to like Best Buy or something,

Ruby Gertz:

Totally.

Amanda:

you know, like it is, has really become part of the customer service uniform. I’m sure if you went to like a Verizon to like, you know, get your phone looked at or something, probably the people there would be wearing khakis. It’s this whole idea of like business casual, but it’s also been adopted by food service in some places.

Maggie Greene:

The military connection made me think of cargo pants and cargo pockets, like, okay, so there is an explanation. There’s an origin. At one point, like those things actually made sense to accommodate like, you know, materials, things for like home repair or I don’t know, ammunition.

Amanda:

I mean, so speaking of khakis, cargo shorts, and sort of unwritten dress codes that are based on social pressure, last week I met some friends at a hotel bar downtown. And it was in a neighborhood that I don’t really ever go to. It’s like a party neighborhood, basically. Every city has one, right? And Justin met me, and then we were leaving. And we walked down to the street. And this, like, I don’t know, it was like 10, 15 men walking towards us. And for a moment, I thought that they were part of some sort of like dance troupe or something, because they were all wearing the same outfit. And it was like khaki shorts and polo shirts, but all of different types. But just still like, this was the social uniform. If you’re one of us dudes, this is what you’re going to wear. And that really struck me as well, because I mean, I think we have all felt at different times in our lives pressure to. conform to the group we want to belong to, right? I think many of us have outgrown that at this point. So when I hang out with my friends, we all look very different. No one’s showing up in a matching outfit, but I definitely remember the pressure of like junior high school of really having to like wear what everybody else was wearing. And I think, you know, for many people that also extends into adulthood and that’s another sort of just unconscious dress code. like, or even like not even, like the bridesmaids dresses are horrible and I hate them. And if anybody asks me to hem one again, I like absolutely no is my answer.

You know, it’s like the dresses, but also like, I don’t know if you’ve ever, if you’ve ever been part of a wedding party and they get like t-shirts or something like printed for like the bachelorette party where it’s like, I’m with the bride. It’s like single use, like, you’re just like, oh God, you know, but speaking of social pressure, right? Like if you show up and you’re handed a t-shirt and you’re like, I don’t want to wear this. It’s like suddenly you’ve created this huge social conflict.

Amanda:

Yep, yep, it’s true. I mean, there are just so many different elements of this dress code in our lives. And another way it manifests that’s not always so black and white as you have to wear khakis and a black button-up or whatever is when you work retail. So.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

No, for example, I mean, I’ll be really, I don’t know if I’ve ever said this out loud on the show before, but I started my fabulous career in buying at_____, and really that was working in the stores as a sales associate that led to that. And you know, like, there wasn’t a dress code outside of like, oh, you need to wear closed-toed shoes. You need to be like somewhat covered up at work. You know, like, don’t wear things that are dangerous and prevent you from being able to do your job. Like, You definitely weren’t allowed to wear flip-flops. That was specifically in the manual. But what it also said is that you need to dress on brand for the business, right? So you couldn’t come in khakis, for example. That would be the wrong outfit for this job. But there was also sort of like, hey, you can get this employee discount. It’s 40% off. That’s you have clothes to wear to work. And you don’t exactly have to wear those clothes to work, but it’s sort of like dot, dot. You know, like it’s implied.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

And I definitely found, you know, when I first started working there, I was like, I can’t afford these clothes. They are more than I make in a day, like for one pair of pants, you know? And so I didn’t ever buy clothes there. I just kept wearing my thrifted stuff. And someone said to me like, hey, if you ever really wanna get promoted here, you need to show that you’re really into the brand. And part of that is gonna be buying clothes from here. And so the first time we had a big sale, I bought a bunch of clothes and started wearing them. And I am not kidding you, I was promoted within a month.

Ruby Gertz:

Wow.

Amanda:

And I think that’s, you know, there are some retailers that say like, hey, you explicitly must wear these clothes. Like I remember, you know, American Apparel was one of those places that if you worked there, you had to wear clothes from there. And I’m sure there are other retailers like that, like probably Abercrombie or whatever. But then there are other places that are like, you know, just like look decent, look like you shop here, but the pressure is still there to buy clothes from that company. And when I think about that now, it just makes my blood boil. Because for one, we’ve got people who really can’t afford to buy those clothes. You don’t make, sorry, you just don’t get paid well in retail.

You shouldn’t have to buy any clothes to go to work there. And then it’s like I, having worked on the buying side for so long in corporate, I’ve seen how all, many of the places I worked have really used employee discount as like, as leverage to drive sales sometimes. So they’ll say, hey, we’re a little behind our sales plan. How about we do an employee appreciation where employees are going to get this additional discount. We’ll schedule it for the same day as payday. And we’ll have really high sales that day, because all the employees will buy stuff. And

Ruby Gertz:

so insidious.

Amanda:

this has been most places I’ve worked. And so that part of it, it just feels so predatory. It feels, obviously, really unjust. that you would have to, that your retailer, that your employer’s already making money off of you by you being there and doing the work, right? But now they’re like, yeah, but we actually, can we get some of that money back that we pay you? Just, it’s like the company store, You know, and I just, I just hate that so much.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

I don’t know, have either of you ever had to work retail?

Ruby Gertz:

Yes, so I actually, I had one retail job. It was my first job and it was in high school. And I have to say, like, I think I was really lucky. Like it was kind of a unique situation. It was a consignment clothing store, like in the next town over. So, you know, I was not paid very well, but I was also like a teenager. And so most of the income I was making at the time, like I was very lucky that income was like mostly disposable. I could spend it, I didn’t have to pay rent essentially. I could spend it on whatever. But one of the really awesome perks to that job was we actually made commission. So we weren’t paid super well, but you would get commission that was store credit to use at the store. So if I had a great day where I made $200 over the course of my shift or whatever, and everything was very cheap there. um, or inexpensive, I should say. Um, but yeah, so you know, I’d make like a couple hundred dollars in sales for the store and I would get like five to ten dollars like credited to my account, which would like add up and I would usually be able to like

get myself like an item or two like almost like once a week every other week. So I actually treated that store like my own like revolving wardrobe. Like

I would just like spend the store credit on like whatever cool outfits and that was kind of when I got a lot of um. I don’t know. Yeah, it was kind of a fun time in my life where I got to experiment with fashion a lot because of that. So I feel like it was kind of a unique experience. There were definitely some retail aspects to that job that sucked. We had some really strange customers that would come in and some very odd regulars and people would shoplift very frequently, which was really unpleasant to deal with. And I would often be working there by myself too, so that was kind of scary. Like sometimes people would come in and be like kind of creepy at me or whatever. But yeah, I feel like it’s not your typical retail experience.

Maggie Greene:

I’m trying to think like the closest I’ve ever come to retail is like that I worked at a little wine bar and like spirits market cafe type of business. And I don’t remember there being an explicit dress code necessarily it was like, you know, we want you to be clean and neat.

Quote unquote professional. Like most of the time I feel like I. outshined my peers in that department. I was like, yes, I love business casual. I’m really going to take this seriously. Like just showing up as my best self every shift. Which sometimes was problematic because if I wore my really nice things and like spilled red wine, that was not cool. But there were two incidents where I kind of wish there had been a formal dress code in place. One time I was wearing open-toed shoes and from like 50 feet away from me, a co-worker dropped a wine glass and like literally one of the shards from the glass like flew into the side of my foot unexpectedly.

The other time that like stands out from that experience where I was like, yeah I mean an explicit dress code would probably be in order here. I had this really cute like tunic dress. It was a mini dress technically and normally I wore it with like little stretch leggings or like tights or something but this was summertime so I thought I’m gonna go bare leg. I’m just gonna like brave it and I had these really cool knee-high boots but I happened to like crouch behind the bar to retrieve something from the printer. And like one of the managers happened to walk by right at that time and caught like the smallest triangular shaped peak at my underwear.

Amanda:

Uhhh

Maggie Greene:

And like reported me, which was, yeah, it was so mortifying. The manager was an older gentleman. So I understand maybe like, it might’ve been awkward for him to come to me directly, but like finding that out through someone

Embarrassing, like the owner of the business. And then thinking too like, oh my god, he’s an, he’s an older man. Like I, I’m generally fairly modest. Like I would never intentionally like walk that line. Like, you know, I mean, I might break the rules, but it would never be like, I’m going to show my ass or like my body, ike, I don’t know in that way. Um, so yeah, like, I don’t, I don’t know how I ever got away with not working in retail, but. It just never happened.

Amanda:

Well, count yourself lucky because it’s a really tough job.

Maggie Greene:

Yeah.

Amanda:

Yeah, and yeah, you see the worst of humanity. But I think you do in a lot of service jobs

as well. Well, I think we’ve touched on a lot of things that we’re going to be unpacking in this conversation, which is like, OK, there are these implied dress codes. There are dress codes that exist due to safety. Closed-toed shoes is a great one. I’ve definitely had to have conversations with people about why they can’t wear flip-flops to work, and it’s not an aesthetic choice. It’s really about not losing a toe, right? You know, we’ve we talked about how, you know, for some businesses, this is really how they signify who works here and who doesn’t. And then, you know, with school staff, I mean, I could talk about school dress codes for 100 years, and we’re definitely going to talk about them later. But as far as I can tell, the bulk of school dress codes are really just about policing girls’ bodies. That’s I’ll just say it. That’s my feeling. But, you know, there are there are a wide variety of. reasons why dress codes and uniforms exist. But, you know, I don’t know. I’m gonna cut my thoughts off there because I’m losing my train of thought. We find dress codes in a lot of different places. School, workplaces. You know, you actually pointed out, I don’t think you said it out loud, but it was in here that there are jobs where even you just have to wear a special T-shirt for events, which, you know, great, because the thrift store needs more of those. Clubs and bars actually will have rules about what you can wear to be admitted. I’ve definitely seen like, you know, no hats, no sneakers, you know, no torn jeans. It’s kind of wild to think about having to dress to gain access to a place where you’re going to spend money. But, you know, a lot of that is rooted in a lot of racism and classism, which we’re going to unpack. There are malls that have rules about what you can wear. Some malls will not allow large backpacks. They won’t allow the so-called gang colors. And they will really use this dress code, not necessarily to keep people safe, but to eject people from the mall. And other public spaces have a wide variety of dress codes. One I talked about when we were preparing for this episode is that a lot of the towns on the Jersey Shore won’t allow you to walk on the boardwalk just in a bathing suit. You have to wear a cover up. or other clothing, yet many of those towns also forbid changing clothing in the bathrooms.

So you’re like, what am I supposed to do here? Like, change in the car? I don’t know. I’ve done a lot of weird, I’m not really in here changing clothes. I’m seriously just using the bathroom, but I’m definitely changing clothes, especially at Ocean City, New Jersey. I’ve gotten really good at that. But, you know, there are a lot of… weird rules. Some are safety oriented and some are just nonsense. And, you know, like, I think that we often don’t really realize how many dress codes were existing within at any given moment.

Maggie Greene:

I don’t understand, like, I mean, I’ve heard, you know, from teachers, from people in schools or even like workplaces, like, there’s an etiquette, quote unquote, you know, and like wearing a hat inside is a sign of disrespect. Like, not if it’s a cool fucking hat and I’m showing up for you as my best and like that’s part of the scenario,

Amanda:

a good hat, you know? And it was part of the look. It wasn’t because I was like, I don’t respect school.

Maggie Greene:

Exactly. And it may not have like a practical purpose either. Like if you’re inside, I get it. You’re not like shading your face from the sun or like protecting yourself from weather. But yeah, it’s a vibe. It’s part of the whole thing.

it just seems so arbitrary to me.

Amanda:

Yeah, that’s one. I remember the two, the only two rules I ever broke in school, but I broke them repeatedly, were wearing a hat and chewing gum. And at least the chewing gum, I’m like, well, people do put gum in gross places, or you could be running and choke, fine.

Amanda:

But I felt like all I did all day at school was plot with my friends how to chew gum and not get caught while also wearing a hat.

Ruby Gertz:

That sounds like the title of your memoir, Amanda.

Maggie Greene:

Hahaha

Amanda:

And… There you go. My priorities, I specifically like, I remember like my best friend Laura Curley always had the jumbo pack of like the extra sugarless gum and it would be like, how do we like, how do you get a piece of gum to me without anyone knowing and then like put it in your mouth and not chew it at all so you don’t get caught? Like clearly I wasn’t being like challenged enough in school or something, I don’t know.

Maggie Greene:

You could have been doing drugs, okay?

Amanda:

That’s true, but instead I was just chewing gum and wearing hats, and it was sugarless gum, just to reiterate.

So another one is like hoodies, and this is one where I feel like this is like so transparently based in racism and classism that I just, I mean, especially racism, that I just can’t even abide by it, but I will see this often. Like, you know, my day job, we have a lot of stores and malls, and stores and malls have… become more aggressive about posting dress codes on the front doors.

And it’s really designed to keep people of color and teenagers out. That’s my opinion. And hoodies are often on the list, which I am just like, it’s such a ubiquitous article of clothing, especially right now.

Maggie Greene:

Who doesn’t have a hoodie? Yeah.

Amanda:

I know. Trenchcoats we cited earlier, but I think this is sort of a dated reference, but I think it’s a good one to call out that in the aughts, it was like, Kids who wore trench coats to school, we’re not talking like khaki and specter gadget, we’re talking like black, right, would be targeted by teachers, by principals as potential like bad kids, kids who were gonna engage in violence because there was like one school shooting. I think, was it Columbine where it was the trench coat mafia? I’m not really sure. It might’ve been an earlier school shooting, but. there was this sudden belief that kids who wear black trench coats to school are probably going to engage in violence.

Maggie Greene:

So this is what really gets me, like, that’s a really superficial assessment. Like, if you’re looking at the full student body population,

Amanda:

Cha!

Maggie Greene:

like, who’s got the trench coats, who’s got the hats and black lipstick. But, like, where is the resources and support for, like, actually evaluating these kids to figure out, like, who might be that person who, you know, at some point turns into the kid with a weapon or whatever. You cannot judge a book by its cover.

I know that’s a cliche, but like the trench coat is not the deciding factor.

Amanda:

I did just like verify it was Columbine that was associated with, and that’s where it kind of grew from. But I mean, boys have been wearing black trench coats to high school for as long as black trench coats have existed, because it’s like a certain type. I don’t know, there’s like these high school archetypes, right? And like, if you were really into, you know, anime or… you know, metal or goth music or electronics or

Maggie Greene:

Dungeons and Dragons.

Amanda:

Exactly. You would be wearing a black trench coat like I grew up with. And specifically, it was like a thing that boys did. Right. It was like it was just it was an aesthetic. I don’t know. I don’t know how it happens before the Internet. But somehow all the kids who were into Dungeons and Dragons knew somehow it was just like programmed into their DNA that they needed a black trench coat. I don’t know what it was, but they all did, right? Because I went to several schools and it was the same at all of them. But that was one where kids would be targeted, pulled out of class, subject to disciplinary action. But like you said, Maggie, never like counseling. Although I don’t know if wearing a trench coat makes you in need of counseling,

Maggie Greene:

Exactly.

Amanda:

right? It’s just like you’re trying to be cool. We’re all just trying to be cool in high school. Another one is backpacks. And I think this one… I mean, depending on where you see it, especially in schools, it’s really like safety is the thought is, you know, the motivation there. So when my child Dylan was in high school, they were not allowed to bring backpacks to school. And this just like blew my mind because I was like, how do you how do you carry your stuff around? And Dylan was like, well, you just only can carry a little bit at a time. And I was like, well, what about like tampons? What about like other personal things you don’t want people to see? You know, little things. Like, it just was so shocking to me that we basically were taking away kids’ autonomy and privacy by not allowing them to have bags. But the implication is that they might have weapons in there. It feels really, to me, it feels, I don’t know, like kind of a violation of privacy, I guess. You know, in other places like malls, stores, backpacks might not be allowed because, you know, it’s ostensibly like a theft issue, which is also, you know, weird. But I get it, I guess. But there is a lot of pushback against using backpacks at this point, because it’s associated with violence or criminal activity or just, I don’t know, being up to something nefarious. And at the same time, I don’t know about either of you, but at my school, it was really uncool to use both straps on your backpack. You had to always carry with one. And I swear, I still, I have had back problems since high school.

Ruby Gertz:

It was also very cool at my, maybe not high school, but like middle school, it was very cool to get the backpack that you could get embroidered with your initials. And there was also like this weird pushback where I remember parents being like, aren’t you worried that like someone will

I don’t think I have one, but a friend of mine had one. I just remember some parents talking and being like, well, aren’t you worried that the backpack says E and someone will just guess that it’s Emily and be like, Emily, your mom sent me to pick you up from school today.

Maggie Greene:

Oh my gosh.

Ruby Gertz:

So weird. I feel like people really like to just like assume the worst. It’s like a lot of this like very fear mongering, like with the backpack thing too, and like trench coats and everything. It’s like, it’s like sure backpacks were used, you know, maybe a handful of times. Like I think like the Boston Marathon bombing comes to mind. I think that was a backpack.

Maggie Greene:

Mm.

Ruby Gertz:

And that might have been like what kind of what set off like all of those restrictions on backpacks. But yeah, it’s like, come on, like one backpack. I don’t know, maybe they’ll use a tote bag next time. Like, we all have to give up tote bags.

Amanda:

I know, right? I mean, that’s the thing. People who wanna do bad things are just gonna get a different vessel

Ruby Gertz:

Totally. They’re not gonna to be like I can’t bring a backpack to school, I guess I’ll never do that crime. Like, no.

Amanda:

Yeah, I know. It’s so silly. And I do think, like, I mean, a lot of these sorts of policies, I mean, they obviously come from, like, no one thinking anything through and just looking for, like, an easy solve that will make people feel better.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

But rather than addressing, you know, like, gun violence in schools,

which is, you know, at an all time high, right? Instead, it’s like, we’ll just take away backpacks and trench coats and hoodies. It’s like, oh, and we won’t let kids wear hats in school either. I don’t know if that’s still going on. But it’s like, no, there are these larger issues here, but it’s to make someone feel like something was done somewhere.

But not allowing backpacks doesn’t make kids safer.

Ruby Gertz:

Totally.

Maggie Greene:

Exactly.

Amanda:

You have a you put a good one in here Maggie that makes my skin crawl

Maggie Greene:

Yeah, and I wish I had a source other than like lived experience and personal

anecdotes from clients, etc. But like it’s another kind of if you know, you know, in certain industries, especially for women and feminine presenting folks like pantyhose are a requirement.

Amanda:

Ugh.

Maggie Greene:

Like it’s not even you can’t wear pants. They may not say that explicitly, but like there’s the implication implied requirement of skirts and dresses and industries, especially like law comes to mind. You know, very, very specific footwear, including heels. I think we’ve got some insight from a listener maybe that talks about that a little bit.

But like, it’s not just the high heels. It’s got to be, you know, this very specific silhouette and the pantyhose to top it all off, no matter what time of year or like,

Amanda:

So gross.

Maggie Greene:

yeah.

Amanda:

And I don’t know if any of you ever had to wear pantyhose at some point when you were kids. But I remember I would have to wear pantyhose for orchestra concerts, specifically.

Ruby Gertz:

me too.

Amanda:

And it would be so stressful for me to wear a pair of pantyhose. One, would I get a runner? Yes,I definitely would. I played the cello.

Ruby Gertz:

Me too, Amanda!

Amanda:

Oh yeah, you have cello energy. Totally.

Amanda:

And then it’s like, will they start falling down?

Will they fit properly? They make you feel hot. Iit does make me sad that there still are people who are required to wear pantyhose every day. When I was a teenager, my mom worked at a bank for a couple of years. And definitely it was like pantyhose. And it specifically was like Navy pantyhose.

But I just, I mean, I do wear tights in the winter. because, you know, I don’t wear pants. That’s my choice. But I do, like, just the thought of wearing, first off, tights are more durable, right? They’re easier to deal with. Pantyhose are so, like, semi-disposable, even though you know they’re gonna be in the landfill for centuries. And to have to wear those in, like, the summer is nauseating to me, just thinking about it.

I do remember back when American Apparel was still in business, I had several friends who worked there in the store. And there was this sweeping dress code revision that didn’t affect the male employees at all. But anybody who had a feminine gender expression was immediately impacted because the rule was that everything on your body except for your shoes had to be from American Apparel. And there was a clothing allowance. So like, OK, at least they got clothes for free. But the problem was like, OK, well, males working there, there were pants, right? And you could wear a t-shirt, a sweatshirt, whatever, that was all there for you. But if you had a feminine gender expression, you were left with tights, basically, and hot pants.

And you weren’t allowed to wear men’s pants. You had to wear the line that was appropriate to your gender, right? And so all of my female friends who worked there were like, yes, so now I have to wear a bodysuit and tights to work. congratulations to me, you know, like, sucks, right? And it was a very conscious decision to make it like sexier there, you know?

And like that, it’s gross. Not glad, not sad that they’re not around anymore. I mean, that is just like the tip of the iceberg with the stuff that was going on there. But I mean, I felt for them, because this was like when I was working at _____ and I’m like, well, theoretically I can wear anything, you know?

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

And it just felt so fundamentally unfair, and it really objectified the staff more than they already were.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

Another dress code thing that, you know, I think, I don’t know, I don’t see as many signs for this now, but I feel like it’s like a contract we’ve signed in society, which is no shirt, no shoes, no service, right? I remember being on the door of like the convenience store near my grandma’s house when I was a kid, and I took it like really seriously, because my brother would be like, I’m gonna go over there and I’m gonna take off my shoes and I’m gonna run in and I’d be like, no, we won’t get service, they’ll make us go home. Grandma wants iced tea, you know? And I was like, this is one of the most important laws that anyone has ever passed, which I’m also pretty sure it’s not a law. I have noticed more and more often that I do see people in convenience stores without shoes.

Maggie Greene:

Yeah.

Amanda:

Or every once in a while, someone without a shirt. It seems like they’ve relaxed on it, but maybe I’ve just relaxed on it. I don’t know. But it does, the shoes thing feels like a safety issue.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, I get that…if they step on something and injure themselves.

Amanda:

Someone added this one in here, which I remember reading, no cornrows except in February, as cited by this Atlantic article.

Maggie Greene:

Yeah, it came from, I can’t remember if it was an elementary or middle school, but like literally a line from their school dress code policy. Um, I was trying to figure this out. Like, what is the connection of February? It’s Black History month, right?

Ruby Gertz:

you

Maggie Greene:

And

Amanda:

Ugh.

Maggie Greene:

I, I already, I already know that this conversation is going in the direction of we’re going to like dismantle professionalism. We’re going to talk about all the ways in which that plays out in the workplace. But. Yeah, I was like, that is, I mean, outright overt racism

Amanda:

Yeah,

Maggie Greene:

in writing.

Amanda:

yeah, it’s disgusting. It seems like something that would happen here in Texas, to be honest. No shade

Maggie Greene:

It

Amanda:

to

Maggie Greene:

was

Amanda:

Texas,

Maggie Greene:

probably, yeah, it was

Amanda:

but.

Maggie Greene:

probably like Florida, maybe Alabama.

Amanda:

Yeah, that’s like a really mortifying one. And then there are these implied dress codes that we were talking about. And I think Maggie added this in here, but I think this is one like, I mean, I already touched on it when I talked about the Navy pantyhose, which are

Maggie Greene:

Yeah.

Amanda:

the so-called like, professional colors, right?

Maggie Greene:

Yeah.

Amanda:

And yellow’s not one of them, right?

Maggie Greene:

Absolutely not. Neither is red, even though we see like red as a power color in leadership and

Amanda:

Right,

Maggie Greene:

politics and

Amanda:

yeah.

Maggie Greene:

like on the news and things like that. Red is definitely not part of what might constitute professional colors. So the anecdote that comes to mind specifically here is like I’m working with a non-binary client right now. And we were talking about. colors and prints and textures and just trying to get a read for what they like and don’t like. So this is like early stage conversation and they came up with this phrase that I thought was super on point in reference to what we see in like you know suit stores and suit separates and business casual retail environments. It’s like you got black, you’ve got gray, and navy and like they’re all interchangeable.

Amanda:

Ugh.

Maggie Greene:

But it’s basically those three colors you might see a brown or like a tan khaki situation, but it’s typically black, gray and navy. And my MB client referred to this as the compulsory masculine trio. And then in context, they’re like, these do not appeal to me. Right. So like anything in this trio, generally, is not gonna. Resonate so it was like it was a powerful insight from them personally But I just thought like can we adopt that phrase because it really is it’s totally compulsory like who decided that only those colors were quote unquote appropriate for like suiting, you know and What if you did wear a red? skirt suit s legal proceeding what would happen, you know?

Amanda:

I just think of those colors and I think of like that working woman archetype There were so many movies that I felt like my mom rented on VHS There were about like working women who couldn’t have it all but wanted to and they were always wearing like just those colors It like suits it makes me think of Kathy,

Ruby Gertz:

Oh

Amanda:

you

Ruby Gertz:

yes!

Amanda:

know They’re very Kathy, but we still see that, you know when my mom was working at the bank Like they were only allowed to her Navy

Ruby Gertz:

Wow.

Amanda:

And she said that was because, you know, like Navy equals like having faith in the safety of your money.

Maggie Greene:

Yeah, trust.

Amanda:

Yeah.

Maggie Greene:

Yeah. Weird.

Ruby Gertz:

I also wonder if maybe those neutral colors, if there’s maybe a practical component to it as well, like black, grey, and navy, it’s like maybe you can have fewer suits and people won’t

notice that you’re wearing the same suit twice in a week maybe? If it’s a very neutral color,

because I sort of feel like if you have a bright red suit or like… bright yellow suit. It’s like that’s pretty like noteworthy, like people will notice and so you probably have to have a lot more garments to cycle through. Like that was actually something that was kind of interesting. In the books that I was reading, they talked about like news anchors and a couple different like, I guess lawsuits over dress codes for news anchors and some of them, I guess several women that work in that industry basically like sued I think it was KNBC or something for making them adhere to these way stricter dress codes than their male counterparts. Their male counterparts could wear the same suit twice in a week, whereas they were expected to have enough outfits that they would only repeat an outfit once every three or four weeks,

Amanda:

Oh wow,

Ruby Gertz:

which is crazy. If you think about it, it’s

Amanda:

that’s expensive.

Ruby Gertz:

totally expensive, right? They buy their own clothes. costumed, you know? Like that is…

Amanda:

Wow, that’s like shocking to me too, because it’s like their work uniform, it should be provided,

right?

Ruby Gertz:

And it’s expected to be very nice too. Like they’re, you know, they’re expected to have very like nice tailored stuff.

Amanda:

That’s so weird. Have either of you ever watched Better Call Saul?

Ruby Gertz:

No, I haven’t.

Amanda:

Okay, well, it’s about a lawyer and he’s like, you know, he’s a schemer and a scammer. It’s a guy who was also on Breaking Bad. I’m doing a terrible job of describing the show, but he’s a

lawyer, right? And so he goes into court and all the lawyers are wearing like lawyer suits in like black, navy gray. And he shows up in like purple suits and green suits and red suits. And it’s really supposed to demonstrate how he is just like a wild card, you know?

Maggie Greene:

Uh huh.

Amanda:

He’s not like other lawyers. I mean, I just gave the worst description of that show ever, and I actually highly recommend it. But it’s just like one of those subtle ways. Now I’m sounding like one of these people on the Succession Reddit who’s like, it’s the quiet luxury. But this is like another way in which the costuming really signals who this person is, and we’re supposed to be like, oh, he’s a real character. Oh, I bet he has lots of unorthodox ways of defending his clients.

So I don’t know, just wanted to point that out there.

Do you want to talk about some contemporary examples of dress codes?

Maggie Greene:

Yeah, so in preparation for this, I was thinking like, how cool might it be just to see how, well, number one, like, how does the language sort of evolve over time? What kind of things are we seeing in terms of changes from today versus like the 1300s? Like Ruby was telling us.

What’s the same, what’s different? And I just did like a really small sort of random sample. The first one is actually from an elementary school, excuse me, a middle school in central Washington state. I think geography, like regionality probably plays some role in a lot of these dress code policies. But like, this one in particular, I would say is one of the least stringent and specific in terms of the language they use, which I thought was interesting.

There’s another example from I think it’s an elementary school maybe in Alabama so again keeping like geography and regionality in mind there are definitely some differences, but

There are still words that keep popping up that would have popped up probably as early as the 1300s, not that, you know, like formal dress codes were necessarily established then, like we know them today, but like well-groomed, neat, appropriate, like what a subjective term.

Amanda:

I hate that word.

Maggie Greene:

I know we’ll get more into that. It references safety, you know, they want students to dress in a safe manner. This specific one again from a middle school in Washington State specifies that students may express individuality in their dress and grooming if their appearance does not cause a disruptive influence

This idea of like disruption, you know, we’ve talked about the dynamic and the expectation that like, feminine presenting students shoulder the responsibility of

this quote unquote disruption, you know, like a bra strap is to blame versus like, dudes don’t know how to effectively express their feelings and like you know channel them in more productive ways I guess but um let me see so this okay I’ve got an elementary school in Colorado gets a little more stringent and specific and some of the language and this specific dress code policy is like some of the same shit we probably saw in the late 90s and early 2000s like especially around like the length of shorts…Which can’t be standardized by the way. It can’t be like an you know an x-inch inseam across the board. It’s relative to the student like Where where does the hem fall relative to like their fingertips on the side of their thigh like you know?

Amanda:

I mean, we’re going to talk about this a little bit later too, because a listener did share some thoughts on this. But that kind of thing, it really penalizes students who are outgrowing their clothes too fast, who just had a growth spurt, whose parents can’t afford new clothing. It’s really frustrating. I mean, even just the like, if you’re Parents say, hey, we’re going to buy all your clothes, like one size too big because you’re growing, and now your shirt’s falling off your shoulder and your bra strap’s hanging out. That’s like another thing that you could get in trouble for. It’s just so, I mean, it punishes people who are already having enough problems.

Maggie Greene:

Yeah, so something else I want to point out, and I know we’re going to talk more in detail about probably discrimination and how dress codes manifest and what the consequences are in the workplace, but pretty much every resource that I found that was a documented policy or some, I don’t know, thought leadership authority saying, this is how it’s done, is presented in a binary gender fashion. It’s like, there’s men and women and that’s it. And there are conventions for men and there are conventions for women and that’s it. No deviation.

So, um, again like back to the specific language, as long as dress codes have existed, I think we’ll see some version of like the following phrases. So we mentioned appropriate, modesty, which I know is something that Ruby brought up, like, there’s a lot of moral value attached to that concept for better or worse, disruptive, distracting…almost every resource, every policy that I could pull up had some variation of these words. Proper was another one which may or may not be closely tied to modesty. Certainly signifies like an air of classism. I mean it reeks of that I think. Who determines what’s proper? So yeah, heavily gendered of course. These are almost always binary, even the contemporary examples. We see a lot of references to clean and neat. specifically around hygiene. What is clean? What is neat? That’s what I want to know.

Ruby Gertz:

So subjective.

Amanda:

you can’t measure any of these.

Maggie Greene:

Exactly. Yeah, that concept of modesty, gosh, it, I mean, it comes up a lot. And when I think about that, it’s just it reeks of a few things, like I immediately think like white male in power, like

who decides what is modest, what’s appropriate. So I put in my notes here, like, it’s very waspy, like heteronormative, patriarchal, there’s an undertone that sex, pleasure, any kind of like, I don’t know, like visible relationship with your body, pride, vanity, anything like that is bad. There’s like some objectionable, like moral failing or something attached to it. Conformity, I don’t know, like I know Amanda, you mentioned the word uniformity earlier. I don’t know if we’ve talked about conformity specifically. Uh, we might not necessarily see that word written in policy, but that is absolutely the subtext, the undertone. We want, we want everybody to look the same. Um, you know, with, except the, the double standards among gender expressions. Right. Um, so uniformity comes up conformity is kind of the undertone. Discipline also shows up a lot. as if what you wear, again, like we were talking about the trench coats, what you wear is any indication of like what you’re capable of.

Or maybe what you don’t wear, you know, says something specific about you, which reads to me as just like the opposite of individualism, you know, conformity exists exactly that.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah. Can I add something about discipline, Maggie?

it was interesting when I was reading this book before they were talking a little bit about kind of the differentiated gender roles and kind of like gender norms in the mid-20th century and how that plays out in dress codes and like this all of these like etiquette books that people would buy and read to try to figure out like these. Kind of the unspoken dress codes, you know, the stuff where you’re like, I know I’m doing this wrong, but I’m not sure how or like, I feel like I don’t fit in.

I’m not sure how. And there was this one etiquette book, I’ll have to look it up later, I can’t remember the title of it, but they quote the quote from it like stuck out in my mind so much. It’s super rude. But the quote was, there are no ugly women, only lazy ones. with

the implication being that it is on you to put in so much time and energy and effort to make yourself look like this, essentially this conformist ideal of beauty. And it’s on you as a personal failing if you do not meet that standard. Yeah, so when you say discipline, it makes me think about that, right? Like this idea that like… we have to, that like, yeah, you have to take responsibility for your appearance and that if you’re not meeting someone else’s standard, it’s that you’re not trying hard enough.

Amanda:

But conversely, especially in more professional environments, which we’re going to get into, there is this expectation that you shouldn’t be too beautiful. Right?

Ruby Gertz:

No.

Amanda:

I was listening to a podcast this weekend that was actually about the music industry and had nothing to do with what we’re talking about right now. But they started talking about how in the 80s, even in the record industry as an executive or working in the office as a woman, there was this expectation that, hey, if you want to get promoted, you need to cut off your hair.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

You need to wear really boring so-called modest clothing or no one’s going to take you seriously as a capable… member of the team.

Ruby Gertz:

Uh-huh.

Amanda:

And so if you keep your hair long or you wear feminine blouses, no one’s going to think you can do your job. And so it kind of led to this getting the sensible bob as part of the unwritten part of the dress code for a lot of office environments. And I think that’s really interesting to think about, too. And it’s something that you know, I think about every day when I, you know, I work in an office where people, it’s like kind of like a business casual environment, but like it’s very traditional. I mean, this is Texas, right? And I come in and wearing like loud colors and puff sleeves and I have like waist length hair. And I have definitely felt people talking down to me as if I am inexperienced or unknowledgeable in what I do. And I actually said at one point, you know, in a meeting, like, I know that you feel Like, I’m incompetent because you’re looking at me, but if you just listen to me, you would realize that I am very competent. And everybody’s like, oh no, I mean, like, yeah, I mean, you might be on something a little bit. And I’m like, yeah, I know, right? I can read the room. But I do think, like, you know, especially with a lot of the people I work with, you know, I’m a non-binary person. That’s something that like makes their, they can’t, does not compute, right? So in their eyes, I’m a lady, right? I’m coming in there as a lady to do business. and looking like that, how could I possibly be good at, like, I don’t know, retail math? And I do think, like, you know, maybe we don’t all have to go out and get a sensible bob now or whatever. But there is still that implication there.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, I think also like, yeah, thanks for sharing that, Amanda. I think there’s like a, anybody who exists in any sort of like marginalized identity, whether it be like due to gender, due to race, due to class, it’s like there’s almost this expectation that in order to succeed in a professional environment, you need to like emulate the aesthetic of those in power. That means dressing in a more masculine fashion or like in a more traditionally masculine fashion or like yeah almost like minimizing anything that might set you apart from the people that you’re trying to get in with.

Amanda:

Yeah, definitely. I mean, there are uniforms, these unspoken uniforms, that people wear to fit in, to get professional respect.

Right? And I see a lot of that. Even for me, I don’t shave my armpits. I have hairy armpits, which I don’t think about at all. It’s like, yeah, so do half my friends. My husband does, who cares, right? But when I first started at my job, I was wearing a sleeveless dress, and I stretched,

and people saw. my hairy armpits and there were a bunch of people like staring and making

faces and like pointing and whispering to each other and so now no matter how hot it is. I have to wear something with sleeves now. No one said that I have to wear something with sleeves That’s not in the handbook or anything, but I feel that pressure so that people aren’t distracted By my armpit hair and we’ll listen to what I have to say And I think that’s like I mean that’s like a minor issue and a much more challenging world, right? But I think that there are these smaller ways in which many of us are being policed in terms of how we dress, how we express ourselves, how we groom ourselves that we might not even be aware of because we just want people to listen to us. You know, we wanna be taken seriously. We wanna be treated with respect or at the very least not called out or you know, not attract any attention. And I think like a lot of that really starts with when we’re kids, the policies around dress codes in school.

Ruby Gertz:

I’m thinking about like, just the concept of like, respectability politics and how that plays out with like, so many different, like, marginalized groups. And yeah, like, this simultaneously, like, wanting to be accepted by the dominant culture, feeling like you need to be accepted by the dominant culture in order to like, have any sort of power or any sort of say over things while also feeling like… you’re having to give up a part of yourself to do that, right? You’re having to conform.

Amanda:

Yeah, absolutely.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, there was a really interesting anecdote in the book I read about the dress code at Morehouse College. And they were talking about how a lot of equivalent Ivy League schools do not have dress codes, but how there’s so many wealthy people at those schools. I think the author of this book, works and maybe as an alumni of Stanford. And he was saying how there’s just so many wealthy people there that like they kind of understand how to dress for a job interview or how to like exist, you know, in these professional spaces and for a school like Morehouse that is so like one of their, you know, main values is to provide some like upward mobility for their students. It’s like actually a really important part of the culture to like teach people how to dress in that way. So it’s very uncomfortable for a lot of the students coming into that environment to like, you know, kind of understand like that dress code and like why it exists. And I guess there have been a lot of controversies like in recent years over like what that dress really interesting to think about like how dress codes, they can be really harmful. But there’s also kind of this benefit of like… Sometimes it can help you to fit into a situation or a professional environment where you might otherwise not be taken seriously, but if you can dress the part, people will take you seriously.

Amanda:

Yeah, definitely.

Ruby Gertz:

Before they even know, oh, this is a really smart person. Yeah, he had a funny line about how it’s like, you might have this encyclopedic memory and be a super brilliant person, but people can’t read that just from like… glancing at you, but they can read that you like put on the right suit.

Amanda:

• Interesting. I mean, that is so true, though, right? Based on the judgments. I mean, when people talk about clothes being sort of like, frivolous, I would say, you know, we do judge books by covers, literally books, but also people and how they’re dressed. And we all have a lot to unpack there. There’s no one listening to this who doesn’t, right? And a lot of this has been programmed in different ways, sort of like silently telegraphed to us via. dress codes via things we’ve heard people say, via behaviors that we’re emulating because like the adults around us did it when we were kids, you know, where we pick it up from media and we definitely make judgments on whether or not we’re going to take someone seriously or respect them or like what their lives are like based on what they’re wearing. And I think it’s like something that we all need to like just fully admit and work on Because I think it’s just as insidious.