Episode 166: Unpacking Dress Codes with Ruby and Maggie (part two)

Amanda:

Well, let’s talk about a word that comes up all the time when we talk about dress codes, especially work dress codes, and that is the term professionalism. So, I mean, in the last episode, we talked a lot about words that were really subjective. Maggie shared all kinds of words like that are used in school and work dress codes that really are not measurable and really are more of an opinion. everything I was reading about corporate dress code would drop the word professional, professionalism over and over again. And I wondered like, is this one of those words or is there something about the meaning that I’m not really getting? Well, according to Miriam Webster, a source cited in so many school reports over the years, professionalism is the conduct, aims or qualities that characterize or mark a profession or a professional person. Now why is the word professional allowed to be used in a definition for professionalism? I don’t know. Seems like one of those things that you would get in trouble for in a school report, right?

Ruby Gertz:

It does, it does.

Amanda:

It does.

Maggie Greene:

Dig deeper, dig deeper. There’s gotta be more there.

Amanda:

But then when I looked at professional, it was just like, oh, a person who does a profession. And I was like, okay, so were we just, is this like, like just a weird cycle I’m gonna be in with these words where one’s gonna take me back to the other over and over again? And, you know. Ultimately, I looked at a bunch of different sources and it was the same story, which leads me to believe that professionalism for all of the hype around it really isn’t, it doesn’t have a clear definition, right? And I guess that doesn’t really surprise me when we think about all of the other words that Maggie cited last week that are part of dress codes, right, like appropriate, distracting, proper, clean, neat. You know, those things are. in the eye of the beholder for certain, and it seems as if professionalism is the same way. But as we talk about professionalism, I wanna remind everybody of something we talked about last week. This came from Ruby and her excellent reporting on the history of dress codes. She said there are four elements in every. outfit basically, and this applies to dress codes as well, status, power, sex, or really for our purposes, gender, and personality. And I think when you start to consider those words, when we talk about professionalism, you start to see what’s really happening here. Now, the definition I read of professionalism would imply perhaps that professionalism is based on behavior. Like… how you carry yourself, right? How you communicate with others, how you treat others, the quality of your work, which you would think would be probably the most important part of professionalism would be being knowledgeable and skilled at your job and working hard, right? And then ethics and values, you would also think would be a big part of professionalism, like sticking to your deals, not treating partners poorly. you know, working together collaboratively, that kind of thing. But that’s not really what we’re talking about when we talk about dress codes and them being sort of a reflection of professionalism.

Ruby Gertz:

I just wanted to piggyback off of what you were saying about the definition of professionalism and how it’s always kind of this like moving target, right? I think it’s one of those words that’s used, especially within dress codes to like assert power, right? Which is one of the, like power and status really come into play, I think, with professionalism in particular and also. sex and gender, but we’re gonna probably talk about that with status and power enforcing expectations on people with less power and less status.

Amanda:

I mean, status comes up time and time again in all the reading I did about dress codes. And we’re gonna in a few share indeed’s guide to business attire where status is so intensely implied. That’s like, that’s what this is really all about.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, definitely. So the quote that I pulled from Dress Codes by Richard Thompson Ford, it has to do with women in the workplace, specifically. And he talks about, you know, what we’re talking about, like, patriarchy and dominance of, you know, like, the masculine over the feminine and how that plays out in our culture. He actually ties it back to this concept of eeve and original sin, which is really kind of interesting.

But I guess if you think about like school dress codes and how that’s reinforced, especially in like religious schools, that kind of makes sense, you know, that like it’s always the woman’s fault.

Sort of this like through line, right? That we have inherited along with patriarchy, which really sucks.

But yeah, so this one quote that I wanted to share. He titles it fashion victims and it’s kind of this conclusion to a chapter that’s all about women in the workplace and specifically women in the law professions.

And he says, the ancient imperative to separate virtuous from fallen women still defines today’s dress codes and many use it to justify obsessive control over women’s bodies. While some dress codes punish women, like Darlene Jesperson and those who reject high heels for refusing sexual objectification and decorativeness, which is another anecdote shared previously in the chapter, equally potent rules and expectations demand feminine modesty. Modesty may seem the opposite of or even an antidote to sexual objectification and decorativeness, but in fact both dress codes require women to cater to the desires of men. While the sexualized, decorative woman must make herself pleasing to the eye, modest woman is obliged to avoid drawing attention to herself. The demands of decorativeness and modesty are opposite sides of a single patriarchal coin which the modern woman must balance on its edge.” I thought that just like speaks so concisely to this struggle that we’ve been voicing so much in the previous episode and I’m sure we’re going to dive a lot deeper in to this episode as well especially with the stories that uh that listeners shared.

Amanda:

Definitely, I mean, before we started recording, Maggie and I were recounting for Ruby all of the comments and stories we received on Instagram today about dress codes, and

the recurring theme was control, especially around women’s bodies.

Maggie Greene:

Yeah.

Amanda:

And sometimes too, just such an egregious level, I’m shocked. I mean, I’m not shocked, but I just was like, this is so fundamentally unethical, the way… these women were being treated at work or in school as girls, that how could that be professional? You know?

Maggie Greene:

It’s interesting as you all are sharing this, I’m thinking about that phrase, like the two most impolite or probably unprofessional topics of conversation that you can introduce them to a group of people or religion and politics.

And both of those things are something that we’re going to touch on today. But like as Ruby was reading that quote, I was taking notes, like virtuous sticks out as like a red flag type of word for me versus fallen.

Fallen as in “Fallen from grace” like of course modesty was definitely something that stuck out to me too and like the idea of virtuosity and modesty kind of coming from I Mean frankly like white supremacists colonialists like hyper religious extremists, you know background it all it all tracks. Doesn’t mean it makes sense or it’s right, but I’m like, oh, ugh, you know, just makes it even more cringe.

Amanda:

Yeah, it really, really does. It is, I was thinking about the other night, like after we recorded our other conversation, I was thinking about how when I was a kid, I thought that when I grew up, I would finally get to like really own my life, right? Like what I did, what I wore, where I spent my time, when I ate, when I slept, that kind of thing. And something that has constantly perhaps, I don’t know, disappointed me as an adult is that Like that freedom’s not always there. In fact, it’s frequently not there, depending on where you live, how much money you have, the other circumstances surrounding your life, where you work. Like there isn’t freedom to be who you are most of the time. And sorry if you’re a teenager listening to this and you thought things were gonna get better. I don’t know if they will. But you know, like I think when we talk about dress codes as adults, you start to see that No, you don’t get to wear what you want to work necessarily or to be super comfortable. And even I, you know, I’ve worked in fashion my whole career, so ostensibly I could wear whatever I wanted to work anytime, but really that wasn’t true. You know, I had to dress for a role every day. Not what I was feeling like wearing that day or what was most comfortable to me, like physically or like emotionally. And I think… I didn’t even have to wear pantyhose or any of these other just like really archaic policies around clothing. I could probably have shown my bra strap if I wanted to. Apparently that is like one of the worst things you can do in school based on all the Instagram chatter today.

So I was like, what is business attire? Because I’m going to be level, like I have not had a job where I’ve had to adhere to like a business attire. wardrobe per se. I mean, there were obviously, like I said, unspoken codes in place for what I should or should not wear to work, but it wasn’t like spelled out in like a manual, except for, you know, when I was working with customer service facing jobs. And so I came across this Indeed guide to business attire and it was actually really illuminating for me. And I have a lot of questions. And I noticed someone went in here and underlined some of the words in the doc, and I’m just assuming it was Maggie.

But they were the exact questions I was having, so I can’t wait to talk about these. So I guess the first thing is I guess I sort of knew this, but didn’t know this, that there are different kinds of business attire. I don’t know if either of you knew this. There was one in here specifically that I had never heard of before. But the one I have heard is casual business attire. And the quote from Indeed is, you might wear casual clothing if you work in an informal office where others wear things like t-shirts, jeans, and here’s the one that really blows people’s minds, open-toed shoes.

Awearing casual dress with clients and in interviews even if the office is casual overall, which I thought was really interesting because I don’t know about either of you, but I have… When I have gone in for job interviews at different companies, there has been in the invite for the interview, like, hey, we’re a casual office, dress comfortably, like that kind of thing.

So I thought it was interesting that this, that Indeed is like, don’t do that. It’s a trap. Because

we, specifically one of the jobs I had, like that definitely was something that they said to potential candidates. And If you wanted to interview them and they were wearing like a suit, it was like, no, it’s not going to work out, not a cultural fit. And so indeed sort of setting some people up possibly to be rejected just on the basis of being dressed up too much. But according to Indeed, casual dress includes items like t-shirts, button down shirts, which I thought was interesting because to me, and I see that you underline this Maggie, to me, that’s like more dressed up, uh, blouses and sweaters on top. Bottoms might include jeans, khakis, this is not gonna be the first time we talk about khakis today, linen pants, cropped pants, or shorts. Casual shoes can include sneakers, loafers, low heels, or sandals. No flip-flops on there, I guess. That would be like too far over the line. So have any of you had a business casual job.

Maggie Greene:

I mean, yes, technically,

Amanda:

Does it sound a little dressier to you? I don’t know. Ha ha ha.

Maggie Greene:

Well, here’s where it got really interesting. Because if you look on paper what the parameters are and the guidelines and expectations of the dress code, and then you look around the physical office environment, things did not always add up. As soon as you said flip-flops, I was like, oh, I’m about to pop up out of my chair. Because that was one of my biggest frustrations with the quote unquote business casual environment in which I worked. I really… made a concerted effort to embody that quote unquote professional appearance, right? Like, really sticking to the guidance in terms of what business casual is usually defined as. However, I had colleagues, some of whom were in leadership and middle management positions, who were like, literally, I mean, wearing sweatpants and flip-flops and tank tops. And I never understood how that was acceptable. But like if a tiny little peak of my tattoo showed over top of my button up blouse or whatever, you know, I would get like raised eyebrows around me. I don’t know. Yeah. I think enforcement and compliance are like maybe another issue. You know, they establish these standards and everyone’s expected to adhere to them. But I think the enforcement and compliance might be also subjective, potentially discriminatory. If I thought a little bit deeper, I could probably make that connection even more clearer with examples. Amanda:

No,

Amanda:

I mean what you just said, Maggie, is exactly what I was thinking, that when or if it is enforced, there is probably an ulterior motive involved. I noticed a recurring theme as people were talking on Instagram today about dress codes, is it was sort of like, you might not be targeted for dress code violation in school or at work if people liked you or… there was nothing about you that they found, like that they didn’t have any subconscious biases towards, right, but if you were, you know, taller or not white or not feminine or, you know, on, right, you might be targeted. There were a lot of people saying like specifically they felt in high school that smaller, more petite girls were not targeted for dress code violations, but. Girls who were taller, bigger, had larger breasts, they were always targeted for it. And so it seems like if you’re gonna be policing people on dress code, it’s really easy to get all of your implicit bias wrapped up in it.

Ruby Gertz:

Totally.

Amanda:

I mean, I don’t know, Ruby, have you ever had a dress code situation like this? Like, what do you wear to work now?

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, yeah. Well, so my job now, I work at a fabrication shop, so I’m wearing clothes that I can get dirty like every day. So I kind of go to work in like t-shirts and yoga pants a lot of the time. But before this, I actually had probably eight year career in college admissions alongside my like freelance work in fashion. And that had a somewhat strict dress code. And actually, the last school that I worked for before the pandemic, me and a co worker were tasked with creating the dress code for our office.

Amanda:

UGH!

Ruby Gertz:

And it’s so funny that you quoted this article because I’m like rereading it now. And I’m like, I think this is the exact article that we looked at to like determine what we should put in this dress code. Because I’m remembering like this funny like breakdown of like the like casual business and like smart casual and like business professional and like these different like levels or like tiers. And it’s funny because I think that we determined that our office was somewhere between like smart casual and business casual.

Amanda:

Interesting.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah but we definitely like had to put a lot of this into practice and it’s interesting too because I think you know for a lot of people know, it was a very public-facing job. You have people coming in to like tour the campus and meet with an admissions counselor, so you’re constantly meeting with families, and you do have to make a good impression like that kind of is a part of the job. And so, yeah, it’s interesting, like a lot of us, especially the counselors and people that have like this more outward-facing role, a lot of us would like come to work in sneakers, but we would keep like a pair of heels or like… nice loafers like under our desk and we would keep a blazer, usually like I would keep a blazer like hanging on the back of my door and it was like if you know if suddenly you were called into like a meeting with the dean or something you would just like swap out your shoes and throw the blazer on whatever you were wearing to try to like dress it up. Which is funny because I would have not won blazers since that job but at that time I think I had like four or five that I would kind of like just kind of always have one at the office. And I didn’t wear it to work and I didn’t wear it at home, I just sort of lived at the office until it was dirty and then I took it home and swapped it with another one. But yeah, I mean it does kind of feel like a costume that you’re putting on, like when you get to work, like you put on your heels or you put on your nicer shoes.

Amanda:

Totally.

Ruby Gertz:

And then maybe you get out of the meeting and you’re just going to be like doing emails for the rest of the day, so you just like put your slide back on or whatever shoes you tend to work in. Yeah, I also have a couple… little anecdotes about interviews. Maybe we should get to that later though, because Iactually did interview some people and yeah, that came up a lot.

Amanda:

Let’s put a pin in that because I definitely want to hear about that. Because I thought it was, like I said, I thought like Indeed was maybe like, I don’t know, like misleading people a little bit here about what they should wear for interviews. Because there was like a whole section about that as well. And I was like, I don’t know. I mean, for many jobs, this would be coming in too hot, if you will, in terms of formality. So the next one, which I had never heard of is smart. casual. It seriously sounds like something someone’s grandma would have said in like the 1960s.

According to Indeed, smart casual is another form of casual business attire, and here’s where it gets so subjective with a stylish twist.

Ruby Gertz:

Ohhhh.

Amanda:

Smart casual might include items like blazers, sports jackets, ties, button-down shirts. Once again, this could be so confusing for a lot of people. Collared shirts, dresses, sweaters, trousers, khakis. Again, khakis. skirts, blouses, heels, flats, dress shoes, clean sneakers, like what? Jewelry, belts, and scarves. So you can wear more accessories, I guess, with Smart

Ruby Gertz:

You can

Amanda:

Casual.

Ruby Gertz:

wear belts.

Amanda:

You can wear belts, but before, no belts, no belts, no scarves. The clean sneakers thing gives me anxiety because cleaning sneakers is really

Ruby Gertz:

Oof.

Amanda:

hard sometimes.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

And once again, the likelihood of you getting in trouble for having dirty sneakers at work is really based on either like how much of an asshole your boss is or how much your HR person or manager wants to get rid of you, I think.

Maggie Greene:

Yeah.

Ruby Gertz:

Totally. And also I think like your marginalized status, right? Like people are probably more likely to notice dirty sneakers on someone who already doesn’t, you know, I guess, you know, fit the like white supremacist ideal mold of like what an ideal employee is or something, right? Like I think there’s so much more scrutiny.

Amanda:

Absolutely, absolutely.

Maggie Greene:

It made me think too with casual business attire, like the implication of specifying clean sneakers with smart casual means that you can wear totally dirty ones in a casual business environment. And like that’s totally on brand.

Amanda:

Like just come on in there like covered with mud and you like stepped in dog poop but like no

one cares?

Maggie Greene:

Yeah.

Amanda:

No, I know, it’s really, it’s really, these are so silly.

Maggie Greene:

On the class side of things, I was thinking about commuters who may or may not take public transit. There’s some walking to get to where they’re going. And shoes, just by virtue of being worn in those environments, then you might add on weather, like rain and slush in wintertime. Keeping sneakers clean is like a peak privilege.

Ruby Gertz:

And that’s why you keep them under the desk. That’s why

Maggie Greene:

There

Ruby Gertz:

we all did

Maggie Greene:

you

Ruby Gertz:

that.

Maggie Greene:

go.

Ruby Gertz:

We were living in Philadelphia. Like everybody took transit

Amanda:

Yeah,

Ruby Gertz:

to

Amanda:

seriously.

Ruby Gertz:

work,

Amanda:

I mean,

Ruby Gertz:

was working in Center City, like, yeah.

Amanda:

I had snow boots, rain boots, outdoor shoes, versus indoor shoes, for sure. Whereas here in Austin, it’s such a driving culture, and plus our weather here is pretty much mostly the same all the time. You don’t see that. I don’t see people bringing a spare pair of shoes to work because they’re not gonna be walking that far.

Ruby Gertz:

Very interesting.

Amanda:

So. Next one is business casual. And this is one of those things, like I’ve never had anybody say like, oh, we have a business casual dress code to me, like as an employee, but it’s definitely one of those things I’ve seen out there when people talk about like casual Fridays at work, or like this work retreat is gonna be business casual, or just like, you know, I’ve seen it in emails from companies, like honestly who are trying to sell clothes. Here are some examples according to Indeed of business casual. Pencil skirts, I thought this was interesting. Pencil skirts, maybe not a pleated skirt, I don’t know

Ruby Gertz:

Ah.

Amanda:

why.

Ruby Gertz:

Ha ha ha.

Amanda:

Slacks, khakis, trousers, blouses, collared shirts, here we go again, button down shirts, apparently you can just wear them anytime. Sports coats, blazers, and sweaters. Accessorize with jackets, ties, simple jewelry, and belts. Shoes can include flats. lifestyle sneakers, whether leather or canvas, oxfords, loafers, mules, don’t see a lot of mules at work these days, boots or heels. The lifestyle sneakers thing is something that I am aware of only because one of my first jobs as a buyer was in shoes. And when we would meet with Nike, Adidas, like the sneaker brands, Their line sheet was broken out by like true athletic, which like at my first job, they wouldn’t sell to us because we weren’t like, you know, a sneaker store and lifestyle, which are sneakers that aren’t really for doing athletic things.

And it’s a whole business, right? And so these are more like fashion sneakers, although unless you’re like an avid runner or like an athlete, you’re not gonna look at them and be like, oh, those are lifestyle sneakers, right?

Maggie Greene:

Yeah, I had actually never heard that term specifically until reading this article and I’m like, I immediately knew what it was in reference to right it’s like a

Amanda:

Right.

Maggie Greene:

sneaker that’s not like a trainer like specifically for the athletics like you said but I’d never heard it called that.

Amanda:

I mean, I think that’s a weird term for them to use because how many people really know what that means.

Maggie Greene:

Well, it’s, yeah, it’s so generic and void of substance. Like, isn’t every sneaker out there technically a lifestyle sneaker? Like, we’re living

Amanda:

Right?

Maggie Greene:

our lives,

Ruby Gertz:

Right?

Maggie Greene:

you

Amanda:

Right,

Maggie Greene:

know?

Amanda:

right, yeah, no, totally. I mean, I remember the first time I went with Nike, like when I first moved into buying, and I was asking about some sneakers that I’d seen, and they were like, oh no, sorry, you’re a lifestyle retailer. You have to choose from this catalog. And

Ruby Gertz:

Huh.

Amanda:

they were like, I remember one of the pairs of sneakers they showed us the very first time was made of like, zebra print pony hair, and I was like, wow, this is such a useless shoe. I guess that’s what lifestyle means.

Ruby Gertz:

It makes me think of like that very like kind of like sneaker head look of like very jazzy shoes

Amanda:

Yeah.

Ruby Gertz:

with like a suit or something, you know, like

Amanda:

Totally…

Ruby Gertz:

I feel like that’s very trendy

Amanda:

Jazzy!

Ruby Gertz:

at the moment.

Amanda:

Hahaha!

Ruby Gertz:

And I don’t know. Trendy, very clean freakishly clean sneakers

Amanda:

Hahaha!

Ruby Gertz:

that look like you’re wearing them for like the first moment like right now.

Amanda:

Totally, yeah, I know, I know. Those are the ones that you take. I remember in LA near Little Tokyo, there was actually a place you could take your sneakers to be cleaned. That’s like all they did was clean sneakers. And of course it was like a bougie. It was like sneaker spa or something like that. But I guess that’s where you take your lifestyle sneakers and give them a spa day. So I was just like guessing, Maggie, that when you have to, probably most of your clients, when you have to help them. with work-related clothing, I would suspect that a lot of them fall into this business casual.

Maggie Greene:

Yeah, something else that stuck out to me though, I don’t know if you all realized that you mentioned confusion. So just on that note, we have casual business and we have business casual.

Amanda:

I know! I

Ruby Gertz:

Hahaha!

Amanda:

mean, I had made a typo when I was working on this and I was like, nope, that’s what

Maggie Greene:

No.

Amanda:

this is.

Maggie Greene:

So

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Maggie Greene:

in casual business, casual sort of leads, I suppose,

Amanda:

Right.

Maggie Greene:

or takes priority. Whereas in business casual, maybe the ratio is more skewed towards business. So yes, I mean, it is perpetual confusion with my clients. It’s how do I do this? How do I navigate this? While also still like, feeling authentically me? How do I adhere to these rules when they don’t even follow any kind of line of logic? Like, I’m looking at these notes and as people are listening, maybe they’re picking these things up too. Like, some of the same elements, like garment styles that are listed under casual business are also listed under smart casual, are also listed under business casual. So like button down shirts, for example, you see make an appearance in all of these different spaces, these different, you know, rules.

Blouses. Okay, we see blouses also in all of those categories. Then there’s this other, like I made a note of this, like pants versus slacks versus trousers. Hello, like, what are, what are the delineations like? I don’t know, like no wonder people are confused. And I mean, my advice always with clients is like, let’s solve for the authenticity piece first.

And if there are like tweaks and adjustments that need to be made to sort of like, well, I mean, protect their physical and psychological safety at work, that’s really fricking important.

But also, you know, like compliance, if it’s really strict, how do we… walk that line, you know, that’s my favorite space is like, okay, here’s the rules. Let’s look for the loopholes, the technicalities, like how can we get around these things without, you know, arbitrarily breaking rules. So it’s interesting, but I mean, even this advice, as clear as it might be in terms of like format and structure, is just as confusing as just saying the word business casual, you know? Um…

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah,

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

no, I thought this was very confusing. For example, dresses, right? So dresses are mentioned as part of Smart Casual and as part of Business Casual. But the thing about dresses is that we all know that dresses can come in a really wide spectrum. Like, for example, one of my coworkers last week was wearing this cute, just pretty basic knit, black spaghetti strap dress. And I was like, oh, you look so cute. Where did you get your dress? And she said, Cabela’s. And I said, wait, no, but where did you really get it? I don’t know if both of you know what Cabela’s is.

Ruby Gertz:

Yes, it’s like a sporting goods store, yeah.

Amanda:

an outdoor store, right? But more for hunting and fishing.

Ruby Gertz:

Yes.

Amanda:

And I was like, wait, really? And she’s like, yeah. I was like, OK. And it was like, we have a very casual office, right? So I was like, yeah, it would be fine. I mean, not that I’m ever going to write someone up for dress code, sorry, like not that person. But I. you know, it would make sense in a casual workplace, but if your place is more like business casual, I feel like probably like a t-shirt dress isn’t okay. Right?

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, I was thinking that Amanda, like as somebody with like a fashion background, it feels like this text was written by somebody who actually has like no idea at all how to describe clothes,

Because like even button down shirts, right? Like there’s such a wide variety, like a Hawaiian shirt is technically like a button down shirt, but that would not be right. Even fiber content too, I think plays a really important role, right? Like there’s a huge difference between like a polyester suit that you found, you know, at like Burlington Coat Factory and like a bespoke wool suit from like Denya or something, you know? Like there’s such a range.

Amanda:

Yeah, even to go more basic, there’s like a big difference between knit pants and woven pants, right? In terms of like their perceived, I don’t know, casualness, right?

Or even how they would look. You know, like think if someone came to work wearing like drop crotch joggers, well, those are pants. I guess they’re not trousers, right? But like, where do those fit in here? I mean, even khakis like. khakis could be just your straightforward twill pants, but they could have cargo pockets. And does that make them less casual?

Or there was a trend for a while where it seemed like guys who worked in advertising in Portland would wear salmon-colored chinos. Is that business casual? Is that casual business? I don’t know.

Ruby Gertz:

Right? Or like garments with prints versus solids and what prints? Like is it a small print or a large print?

Amanda:

It’s interesting that you bring that up, too, because as I was reading this, and I think you’re so right, Ruby, that it’s that whoever wrote this doesn’t know anything about clothes. It’s so terrible.

But there is a big perception in terms of the formality or, I don’t know, professionalism of prints versus solids, because there is a lot of, I don’t know, like, prints have been really gendered. And as we know, the great masculine denunciation has really steered business attire in this century. It’s just like going strong. And I would assume that prints wouldn’t be a part of that. Like maybe a little bit of like a fine plaid or fine houndstooth or something, but not like a floral print, not

like bunnies all over it. Like not conversational prints as they’re called.

You know, at ModCloth, we got a lot of asks for where to work clothing. And I manage the dresses team then, and I said to my team, I was like, I don’t know what that means. Like, honestly, I have only ever dressed like a wild, eccentric person to go to work. Like, what does that mean? And we had to do all this reading and research. And one of the big things was like… For women specifically, it was like solid colored dresses that with arm coverage, knee length, not bodycon, but not like diaphanous and flowy, no ruffles, really like no detailing, maybe a tie neck, maybe, but like not like appliqués or lace trim or puff sleeves or anything like that. And that was really eye-opening for me.

Maggie Greene:

I’m starting to think about this. I feel like there’s a metaphor here. So in a previous episode, it was not the last one we did on dress codes, maybe a couple episodes back, we talked about hard pants, which is a term that’s come out of the pandemic. So if we’re thinking about this, like spectrum of formality, knits to wovens, if there’s a correlation there, like structure, AKA stiffness, You know, is present in a woven or like a bespoke suit, even certain blazers versus a knit, which has more movement and like lays more softly on the body moves with the body. So I’m thinking about like stiffness in terms of corporate culture and just like the, the visual takeaway as you like scan an environment like that. It’s like corporate stuffy, like buttoned up, you know. maybe there is some connection there to like, I don’t know, I mean physical discomfort comes to mind. Like, knits are way more friendly to the body to wear a lot of times than a woven, you know, like all that structure. But yeah, like I’m picturing an infographic, like a scale of casual to formal and like fiber content, you know, shared across that spectrum.

Amanda:

I think you hit on something there that like you can’t be too comfortable to work, which when you say it out loud is incredibly terrible.

Ruby Gertz:

It’s so awful.

Amanda:

It’s so awful, right? But that brings us to probably the most uncomfortable of all the business attire types and that’s business professional. Interesting that none of these other people were professional, right?

Maggie Greene:

I was thinking again about that spectrum of like casual to formal and discomfort and the stiffness piece like Even down to the footwear,like we’ll see flats in more casual environments but like the more formal you go like the higher the heel which equates to Presumably more discomfort as well.

Amanda:

I mean, I will tell you, I, until basically the pandemic, wore high heels to work every day. And sometimes like really wild, like platform high heels that may be like six inches taller. Did that for years. And I will tell you, guess what happened? I got bunions.

And I got, what is that, plantar fasciitis. I don’t know if you’ve ever had that too.

Ruby Gertz:

Oh, yes.

Amanda:

Inflammation of the bottom of your feet basically.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

So. It’s like so silly to me that like to be professional, you have to damage your feet. Like what?

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

But when we talk about the most uncomfortable of it all, it is business professional, which I think that’s so funny. Like all these other business attires were not professional, but now we’re finally there with business professional.

And this is definitely what you think of when you think of lawyers. And… bankers. We’re talking about tidy dresses. This is the word that indeed used tidy, which is such a weird… I don’t even know what a tidy dress is. If either of you know, let me know. Slacks, skirts, slacks again according to… indeed might want to fix this. I’m assuming they probably meant trousers or something. Dark… colored suits and ties. I think the color is like really key.

We talked about this in the last episode. Business professional tops include neat button-down shirts, so I’m guessing not Hawaiian shirts, or blouses with a blazer. Business professional shoes include heels, loafers or flats. You can accessorize with minimal jewelry and belts. allowed to have belts again, that’s great.

Ruby Gertz:

you gotta hold up your pants somehow.

Amanda:

And I mean, this is definitely like, when we think of like business clothes, this is what, I mean, I think this is what the average person pictures.

And I am proud to say I’ve never had a job where I had to dress like this. I, years ago, when Nasty Gal went bankrupt and I didn’t have a job, neither did my friend Kim, we both interviewed. not a lot of great options in LA. We both interviewed with Ross, you know, like Ross Dressed for Less because, and apparently their buyers make a bank. Like they get paid so much more than like I’ve ever made in my career, but they have, they dress like actual business professional and I was having so much anxiety about this. I was like… What if I get called in for an interview? Like, what am I gonna do? I literally don’t have anything. And then what if I get a job and I only have one outfit? Like, what will happen, you know? Like really, you’re fretting about this. The first couple rounds of interviews are really weird and like a video, but like not even in person. They have like a portal and you record yourself answering questions. It’s horrible. And fortunately,I never made it past that. What a relief. Ha ha ha.

Ruby Gertz:

That’s interesting to me too, because if you’ve ever been in a Ross, the clothes available at Ross are definitely not for business professional.

Amanda:

It is interesting when I go to trade shows, like whether it’s like for the job I have right now, it’s more like gift related or apparel in the past, you see all spectrums of buyers there. So I’ve been the one where everybody I’m with is dressed like a wild and hip and trendy or weird, whatever, but you’ll walk right next to someone who is like straight up in like a Navy suit.

It’s like and business casual in between you know lots of lots of people in blouses You know tucked in looking neat, and then you know my team with like holes in the butts of their jeans

And definitely bra straps hanging out But it is interesting like just to be working alongside as a peer with People who have to dress more and in my opinion like it’s so formal you know

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

Have either of you had a job where you had to dress this professional?

Ruby Gertz:

No, I mean, I will say there were times in admissions where we did have to kind of like dress nicer than our average day to day and it was usually like for a very, you know, for a big meeting with like the university president maybe or, you know, sometimes like certain events we would go to. There was like an expectation to dress a little nicer but I mean, kind of similarly to you, Amanda, like I was working for an art school so like… We were a lot looser with our dress code, but

Amanda:

Right.

Ruby Gertz:

I would definitely be at admissions fairs and there would be admissions counselors from Stanford or Harvard or whatever, at a couple booths down, and they would be dressed to the nines because they’re recruiting for law school. But I felt like I had permission to be a little more artsy and funky because I’m recruiting people to come do photography programs and maybe architecture, fashion and stuff. So it was a little… a little looser for us. But yeah, I don’t know what I would do if I had to dress like that formal.

Amanda:

I mean,

Maggie Greene:

I’m trying to think, so like state government, like I said, I worked in several different agencies and offices. This was in the rural South, by the way, I think that’s important for context. So I worked inside of an office of legal services. So like my boss and my coworkers were lawyers, right? Who adhered to that very traditional, down to like pantyhose, which I know we’ll talk about later. very much dark colors, like solid, pretty subdued, like corporate, structured. Um, but we had a business casual or casual, yeah, business casual dress code in the office, um, but for cases like. And we had to go into legislative session or appear in front of a judge or the court or whatever we had to, you know, there was the expectation that we would elevate a bit, um, for that environment, but as you all were sharing about. stories around job interviews. Like I have, I have an example from like the other side of the spectrum. So there’s always this concern like, you know, this isn’t professional enough.

Am I showing up, you know, as professional as I can? Am I going to land the right impression? I, I interviewed for like a big box drugstore retailer, probably 20 years ago. I was kind of fresh out of college and one of the pieces of feedback I received, like I didn’t make it through to the next round, but the supervisor, the hiring manager was like you did great. And one thing that stuck out to me was like, I think you were a bit overdressed, which let me tell you, I remember what I was wearing. It was like a black knit mock neck short sleeve turtleneck. and like plaid trousers and some pointy toed flats. It was like pretty casual. Yeah. But the job, the role itself was like, some of it involved inventory management and stocking. So it was one of those situations like you Ruby, like probably a t-shirt and yoga pants would have been like more appropriate, you know, on the job. This was an interview. Like, I’m not gonna, I don’t know. I’m not gonna show up and. I don’t know, jeans, it just, you know, it wasn’t my style, but

Ruby Gertz:

I have a similar interview story, maybe, when I was actually, I was on the other side of it. I was on a hiring team, and we were looking to hire more people to join our admissions team. And there were two interviews that stuck out. The first one, actually, this one I wasn’t hiring for. This one I recommended a friend to apply for a position at the company I was working for. They didn’t get the job and I heard later through the grapevine, kind of in this very like rude, whispery way, that the reason they hadn’t, that they were otherwise very qualified, that the reason they hadn’t gotten the job was because they showed up to the interview in shorts. And I don’t know if that’s true or not, but I just like, oh man, you know, like that’s a really harsh- criticism, you know, to just to be like, oh, they would have gotten it except for this. It’s like, oh, like, okay. And then another time I was actually on a hiring committee for an admissions job and we had somebody show up in a full suit, like head to toe, like dark navy blue. And the interview like went really well. And as soon as this person left the interview, my boss turned to me and said, She’s hoping to make more money than we can offer her, so we shouldn’t even bother.

Amanda:

Wow.

Ruby Gertz:

Just like purely based on the suit. Like purely based on the suit. She was like, if she has that suit, she wants to make more money than we are gonna pay.

Amanda:

I mean that is wild because often in college, it’s sort of like when you graduate, you need to buy a suit, right?

Ruby Gertz:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

And a lot of my friends’ parents bought them suits as sort of like a graduation gift. Like now you’re going out and you’re gonna get a job, right? So I find that really offensive.

Ruby Gertz:

I thought that was like kind of an egregious assumption that like this person has a lot of money or has an expectation from this job. Like clearly she was just trying to put her best foot forward, you know?

Amanda:

I mean, you may have read this Indeed Guide to Business Attire, but says you should dress up even if the office is casual for the interview. So I…

Ruby Gertz:

Well, apparently shorts is not. It’s way too casual.

Maggie Greene:

Too casual, right?

Amanda:

I mean, I guess to me it’s like which kind of shorts, you know?

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, right? No, I thought that too. I was like, was it shorts or was it like a culotte situation

Amanda:

I have like so many questions. You know, as you were talking, it made me think about a time that I interviewed. It was at Nasty Gal. So the fun thing about, I don’t know, I will just say, I think we all have experienced this in our lives in a variety of different scenarios, that there are so many red flags sometimes that you refuse to acknowledge.

And then later you’re like, oh, those were red flags, weren’t they?

I actually interviewed at Nasty Gal twice in a three month period, and I should not have taken that job, it was horrible. But the first time I interviewed there, it was fine. I went in wearing clothes from Nasty Gal, because that’s what you do when you work in the industry, you wear clothes from the retailer, that’s the dress code.

And I remember specifically that I was wearing like this black jumpsuit, and I had on a bolo tie, and I had this like faux fur coat. and really huge platform, heeled shoes. And that was not how I dressed to work at ModCloth, where I dressed in ModCloth clothes. And the interview was like fine, although like to be honest, the people who interviewed me I found to be very unpleasant. And then no one ever responded to my emails ever again. They completely ghosted me. And a couple of months later, my friend Sherry got hired there. And you know, they were looking for someone to manage the apparel team. And she said, Well, you interviewed my friend Amanda, but then you ghosted her. She’s probably the most experienced person in LA right now. You should hire her. And they were like, oh, we did interview her? And then the other person was like, oh yeah, she’s the one who looked just like she worked at ModCloth. And she was wearing ModCloth clothes when she came in, and Sherry was like, I know that’s not true, because I saw what she wore that day. So that’s not even a real excuse. And so then they brought me in for another interview and I should have been like, fuck you. But I was like, oh, I wanna go work with my best friend.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, that’s such a crazy assumption too, like that they wouldn’t even recognize their own clothes and they would just assume you were wearing clothes from your former employer.

Amanda:

I mean, I think that they just like, they saw Modcloth on my resume and like in their mind, that’s just like who I was, which also just shows how like silly they were.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

But I’m not an amateur. I wouldn’t wear Modcloth clothes to go to a Nasty Gal interview. It’s like a very different aesthetic. It’s like wearing business casual to go to like a business professional environment. I mean, I didn’t know that now, but I’m gonna use that analogy all the time.

So, you know, interestingly, like Indeed has a lot of tips for helping people get dressed for their various jobs. And something that I really noticed is like going back to what Ruby said in the last episode about status, power, sex as gender for our purposes and personality, you start to see a lot of this, all these underlying structures within the workplace that sort of play out via clothing. For example, Here’s, this is from Indeed. If you work in an office, pay close attention to the people, the way people dress. While the office may be casual, you might notice that people in leadership positions dress slightly more formally. You may choose to dress similarly to the people who hold the position you would like to reach. I, I mean, I will tell you that describes my current job right there, whereas like people who are in like lower level positions within the office, we’ll come to work in leggings maybe, right? Or a Hawaiian shirt. But people on the higher level, like in the executive meetings, I would say are more like somewhere between smart casual, business casual. Now no one’s wearing a suit, right? But like they’re in, almost there.

And this whole idea of like dress for the job you want, I’m so tired of hearing that. That’s what this is.

Maggie Greene:

I think there’s variation depending on what industry you’re in and there’s some regionality involved as well. I’m thinking about a client right now who has the opposite problem. She’s on a mission to leadership and owning her own business one day and managing a team and all of these things. Her direct supervisor who presumably has that. like high highest most leadership position is like more apt to dress casually. And she’s like, I don’t want to overshadow or like seal her thunder. Like she’s used a few different phrases to like, you know, I don’t, I don’t want to show up my boss, but also like, I want everyone else who is there to know what I’m about and like, I’m on a mission. So it’s, it’s interesting. Um, I think, yeah, she’s in the Midwest. And I think. Pacific Northwest, like we see, of course Microsoft is headquartered here, like their leadership team, often you’ll see a suit, but it’s paired with like a graphic t-shirt and maybe clean, bright, shiny, clean lifestyle sneakers, like elements from every piece, every variation of dress code. and one. It’s weird. So maybe tech is an outlier.

Amanda:

or like, you know, advertising, like more creative professions. I do think the fact that lifestyle sneakers are expensive and there are brands whose entire brand is to, you know, create more expensive lifestyle sneakers, like, you know, like there’s that one brand, Golden Goose, for example. I think that the era of really expensive, like three, four, $500 lifestyle sneakers has made them more acceptable. for higher level employees. I think it’s just another way to show your status. And when you really think about, no matter what your company’s dress code is, you do see these subtle shifts as people move up the ranks and you really see the, you get a clear visual guide to the hierarchy within that office by looking at how people are dressed. You can tell who has the higher level roles, even if it’s just because their shirt is more expensive.

Ruby Gertz:

I think there’s also like sometimes maybe in more artsy or like casual work environments like tech. I’m thinking of my spouse’s former employer was a tech company and the owner of their company would like frequently show up to work in like basketball shorts and like a quarter zip like fleece.

Amanda:

Oh, geez.

Maggie Greene:

Whoa.

Ruby Gertz:

Which is like yeah. Which is like. so funny because it’s also like it’s like yeah he’s the owner of the company it’s like he can kind of do whatever he wants but like

Amanda:

Right.

Ruby Gertz:

I bet if other people were to follow his lead and like show up in basketball shorts like they might get some side eye.

it’s almost like a power move of just like well what are you gonna do like I can do whatever I want.

Maggie Greene:

He wouldn’t do that in front of investors if there were like a big all-hands meeting or something,

Ruby Gertz:

I don’t know. Maybe not. And maybe that’s like a power thing, right? Like maybe when he’s in a position of being superior to everybody else, it’s like fine to dress down. But as soon as you’re in a room with people who are your peers, or maybe you’re even, you know, fancy wealthy people that you’re trying to impress, maybe pull out all the stops. But I don’t know. Maybe he did show up to board meetings in cargo shorts or basketball shorts.

I mean, that would be a power move if he did.

Amanda:

Yeah, it would. Well, people would be like, he’s a disruptor.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, exactly right. I also think that men in power get a lot more passes than women in power.

Amanda:

Um, yeah. For sure.

Ruby Gertz:

I think if a female CEO were to do that, I think there would be a lot more scrutiny. I mean, there’s already more scrutiny of women in the workplace and anyone who’s not a cis man in the workplace in general.

Amanda:

Definitely, definitely. And then the higher up the ladder you are, I mean, no one has been more acutely aware of the power gap in corporate infrastructures than I have been recently. So we’re just like, there’s a totally different code of contact for people at the top versus everyone else in terms of

like how they can treat other people. And unprofessional, right? Speaking of professional, here’s some more advice from Indeed. Addressing appropriately, there we’ve got that word appropriate, right, can help you be seen as a professional employee who cares about your success in the role. My question is why wouldn’t the quality of one’s work or one’s work ethic be the true indicator of a so-called professional employee? Why is it this appropriate clothing?

Ruby Gertz:

because those are harder to measure, Amanda.

Amanda:

Right,

Ruby Gertz:

We’re lazy.

Amanda:

this is tough, right? Like this is like reading this, I was like, oh man, we know that Indeed is a total narc, you know?

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

Here’s another one. If you’re going to a business meeting, ask your colleagues who may know or have met with the same person about how their offices operate and how you can appear respectful and professional during your meeting with them. So I think… Once again, we get professional here, but respectful. And this respect, polite, these were words that I saw coming up time and time again in terms of dress code. This line of thinking implies that there’s only one, that you are only worthy of respect or being taken seriously based on what you’re wearing. Once again, reinforcing this hierarchy within the office. That what you wear yourself would be a show of respect to someone else, I think is very interesting. This idea of it being more polite to wear this than that is also interesting because it comes back to like someone else’s feelings about you, ultimately.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

No matter, you know, we talked about the discomfort meter going up, right, as your work dress code gets more intense. It’s sort of like. your discomfort is more important than the way someone else feels about your outfit is way more important than your discomfort. And I think, it’s dark, it’s like work, work.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, and I think it plays into that power aspect as well, right? Because it’s almost like through your sartorial choices, you are conveying an acceptance of this hierarchy of power, right? You’re almost showing, I will adhere to this code. You are setting this code and I am respecting it and I am subordinate to you and you’re accepting that status.

And that like lower sense of power by like accepting those rules.

Maggie Greene:

Like respect equals compliance equals subservience,

Ruby Gertz:

Totally.

Maggie Greene:

submission.

Amanda:

So I was telling you both a story before we started recording about something that I witnessed at work where the owner of the company came over and was yelling at us and then yelled at my coworker who was eating lunch at the time for eating while he was talking to her. Like she was supposed to put her food away while he yelled at her. And she said, like later, obviously she did not say this at the time. She said, I can’t believe he said that to me. because there have been so many times where we have been in a meeting with him where he’s walked away to go in the kitchen to get food and then come back and like literally like made a sandwich or something in the middle of the meeting while you were talking. And I was like, yeah, I mean, this is really interesting, right, because a lot of this, what’s professional, what’s acceptable, right, what’s polite, depends on your level in the company. It’s all, once again, it goes back to power structures and what is professional. for us versus them is really related to what your role is within that company. Like if I came into work and slammed a door and started screaming at someone, I would probably get in trouble. But if the CEO does that, well, that’s okay, they’re the CEO and they can come in basketball shorts too, but I probably can’t.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

And so it just. I mean, honestly, I think we’re all saying that like, everyone should just quit their jobs. Is that what we’re saying here? I don’t know. No, but it just really points to, you know, these power structures that exist between workplaces. And, you know, it’s interesting. I remember like six months ago, maybe a little bit longer saying to my husband, I said, you know, after only working for myself from 2020 until late 2021, I forgot about the power structures that exist in a lot of corporate environments. where you have to let someone be mean to you or cut you off or talk down to you or just fundamentally talk over you and you have to accept it with a smile because of the power structures that are in place. And that I’d kind of forgotten about that after close to two years of just hanging around Dustin all the time and no one else, you know?

Ruby Gertz:

Oh my gosh.

Amanda:

And I was like, it’s painful when you’ve been out of it and go back into it, you’re like, this sucks. Why is this okay?

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

And I think a lot of dress code really ties back to that as well. So I found a really great 2015 piece called, and watch, I could literally read this whole thing to you all, but it would be annoying, so you should read it. It’s gonna be linked in the show notes. It’s called You Call It Professionalism, I Call It Oppression in a Three-Piece Suit by Carmen Rios. In my opinion, it is one of the best things that has been on the internet about dress codes, because I’ve read an awful lot. Sorry, indeed. And I have a little bit of a long passage that I’m going to read here and I apologize, but I do feel empowered to do it because I’ve already gotten Ruby to agree to read some of the messages from listeners, so I’ll have to do less reading this week. Dress codes make room to turn a lot of isms into policies, especially since typical standards of professional dress are at the core racist, sexist, classist, and xenophobic. For workers who come from a non-Western background, for example, workplace dress codes can invisibilize them. What folks see as professional garb rarely encompasses non-Western dress. For Rastafarian or Muslim employees, dressing or appearing in line with your faith becomes a vulnerability. Employers might be critical of dreadlocks or religious accessories or symbols, which puts those particular non-white workers in a disadvantaged position. to move ahead in their professional lives. Women of color, meanwhile, still face objections to their own natural hair in the workplace. It can also be burdensome to subscribe to a dress code when it means subscribing to a gender binary that doesn’t speak to your experiences. More femme-identified men might have trouble striking a balance between what’s professional and what feels right, and androgynous or genderqueer folk might be forced to dress in a more binary and consequently oppressive way. women face a unique conundrum, namely that they can’t be seen as too feminine or too masculine and that different occasions call for different apparel. So the person who wrote this works in DC and so I just wanted to jump in and say that as I continue. I remember being told once that I should wear pants not a skirt to the hill, meaning Capitol Hill, as if wearing a dress or skirt somehow undermined me as a worker in a historically male institution. For some women, dressing in traditional male garb helps them to gain power, but in some workplaces, it works to their detriment because their colleagues find it inappropriate. On the flip side, women might be received more warmly clothed in dresses and soft blouses, but also be dismissed as flitty, unserious, and unintelligent. For workers without money, dressing professionally can actually be an impossible request. When workers at all levels are expected to dress formally, the workers bringing in the least income must choose between saving up or dressing up. And often the cost of going without the right shoes, shirts or dresses can cost them promotions and other opportunities in their career. Which really is exactly what Indeed was telling us without telling us, right? That you have to dress for the job you want. and who cares about your credit card debt?

Ruby Gertz:

Holy.

Amanda:

So thoughts, feelings here.

Maggie Greene:

the line about the workers that bring in the least income have to choose between saving up or dressing up was pretty compelling, I thought. There is some more insight that I’ll share in terms of how this plays out in real life examples. I have a lot of client stories to share. But yeah, how many employees are faced with that same decision? And maybe it’s not just a financial burden. In this case, You were talking about genderqueer folks or non-binary folks, like they have to pick a lane, neither of which feels authentic to them, which is, I mean, it’s harmful. It can cause mental health issues and anguish and just, you know, like an overall distraction from their job, which is upsetting.

Amanda:

It is, and something we’ve touched on a few times, like a word that has come up, is that a lot of this almost begins to feel like a costume.

Ruby Gertz:

Uh-huh.

Amanda:

That we are being asked to wear a costume that was dictated by someone else, possibly a bunch of rich dudes back in like, what was that, the 1700s, Ruby? The great masculine denunciation,

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah,

Amanda:

right? Like,

Ruby Gertz:

yeah, 1700s

Amanda:

right? And it’s just

Ruby Gertz:

enlightenment.

Amanda:

like stuck, right? Like it’s still going on. And you know, the reality is like, We are pushed into this situation depending on where you work and what the dress code is that you have to have two wardrobes. You have to have what you

Ruby Gertz:

Yes.

Amanda:

wear to work and what you wear outside of work. And this has made a lot of retailers a lot of money selling both of those, you know? And it just seems so silly that, I mean, you know, a trope that you would see in women’s magazines in like the 80s and 90s was this idea of desk to dinner. So like. how you could take your work clothes and transform them into evening clothes. And I actually had a Barbie as a child that did that. She had like a pink business suit on, but you could take off her skirt and blazer and turn it inside out and they were like holographic.

Ruby Gertz:

Oh my gosh.

Amanda:

Something like that. If anybody’s listening and knows of which I speak, but like this idea that like your work clothes you can’t even wear after work is wild.

Ruby Gertz:

I feel like that was also a really popular fashion prompt in early aughts fashion school was like day to night.

Maggie Greene:

Yes!

Amanda:

Yeah.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, transformation garments with this idea, which is so funny because I feel like I’m that age now where like, yeah, when you were talking about an adulthood having control of your life, I think also I had this concept when I was a teenager or something that when you’re an adult you just like… go to work and you just like part, you put on like a sparkly tank top and like go dancing after or something,

Maggie Greene:

Right?

Ruby Gertz:

right? I’m like, I never do that. Like I come straight home, I like take a shower, eat dinner, watch TV and go to bed.

Amanda:

I know, I’m like, who are these people who do stuff after work? But I definitely remember that time in my life, you know?

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, it was brief. I feel like it was brief for me in the long run, but yeah.

Amanda:

Yeah, I mean, but there has always been this idea that, like, I mean, obviously people don’t adhere to it as much now because we live very different lives than people did 30 years ago, but that you would have one outfit for work, and then if you went out to dinner or drinks or something else afterwards, you would change in between. And of course, those clothes would be totally different than what you would wear on the weekend.

Ruby Gertz:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

Right, and you wouldn’t wear any of those clothes that I just mentioned to a party. That’s a whole other set of clothes.

Ruby Gertz:

Yep. Yeah.

Amanda:

And so it’s just like, you have to buy more and more. And of course you need shoes and undergarments and all these other things that go with all of those different outfits. And so for the most part, I mean, we know people over consume clothing right now, but it’s not because they have all of these like specific day-to-day changes that they have to make. But… Regardless, you would think, okay, well we have changed so much about how we live. Even, I had this realization the other day that Dustin and I exclusively eat dinner on the couch, which is something people wouldn’t have done 40 or 50 years ago. And I think during the pandemic, it became even more normal to just eat on the couch. We’ve made all these other changes in terms of how we live our lives, but yet we’re still sort of ascribing to these dress codes that feel kind of old. and rooted in just a different time. And they really are a financial burden. Even if you were saying, okay, I’m gonna go buy all of my work clothes in that one section at Target that has workish clothes, right? Or I’m gonna do it at H&M, it’s still expensive. And a lot of those clothes are gonna need to be dry cleaned or hand washed and line dried, so there’s a lot of work or money involved there and not fast turnaround in terms of laundry. And so you might need to buy more. And it’s just such a burden. I mean, listen, I was genuinely freaking out that I might get a job at Ross Dress for Less and need to go buy like five suits. I was like, how? I’ll have to get like a new credit card, you know? Ha ha ha.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, and for some jobs too, it’s like you can’t get away with getting the professional stuff at like Target. Like people might, if you’re in certain fields, like people will know and they will notice and like you have to get like an Armani suit or like something, you know, that’s like a recognizable brand or like of a certain quality. Sometimes that’s non-negotiable. Like if you, I don’t know, if you were to work at like I’m thinking of like very high-end retailers like, let’s say like Tiffany’s or something. Like you probably can’t show up in like a Ross dress for less suit.

Maggie Greene:

Mm.

Amanda:

I don’t know if they have

Ruby Gertz:

To

Amanda:

them

Ruby Gertz:

a customer

Amanda:

there, but yeah,

Ruby Gertz:

facing

Amanda:

definitely.

Ruby Gertz:

shop. Yeah.

Amanda:

I mean, I think that’s a really good call out as well. And so this idea of like what’s professional is kind of a moving target based on who, where you work and who made the rules and who you are individually.

Maggie Greene:

I think you hit on something really profound and important here too, Amanda, which is like the backbone of this is capitalism and all of its shortcomings. Like the idea that we have to have different clothing for every context in which we show up is sounds to me like a really smart, just torture that word that we’ve seen earlier today heard earlier. a smart marketing ploy to get people to buy more shit.

Amanda:

Oh, totally, right? I mean, I think, like, based on how dynamic, if you will, the policies around professionalism are in terms of dress, it could mean that, like, every job you have, you have to buy a completely different wardrobe, right? And so, you know, people change jobs more often than they did in, say, our parents’ generation. which I think is a good thing, but it could mean a reboot of your wardrobe every time you shift jobs. Honestly, it has meant that for me. And that’s another thing that keeps you shopping, right? Keeps the capitalist wheel turning. And yet it’s all so subjective. You know, it’s so interesting that we all sign on for this. I mean, kind of because we have no choice.

Maggie Greene:

One other thing I want to touch on, I know we have a lot to cover, but the line about dressing in line with your faith, making you vulnerable and how dress codes that we’re seeing in professional quote unquote environments doesn’t really create any space for non-Western influences and beliefs. I find that extremely ironic considering all of the discussion we’ve had about modesty. and where that comes from, like, it’s all so, like, waspy, you know, like very white, very Western, very Christian too,

Ruby Gertz:

Right? Like there’s not roo for people of like Muslim or Hindu or Jewish faith.

Amanda:

Yeah, it’s very colonial. I think a great example is in Japan, when you go get on the subway at rush hour, it is full of men all wearing the same exact suit. It’s always like a gray or navy suit with a tie, a white shirt, same shoes. Everybody has the same haircut. And it’ll just be like a hundred guys in the car. It’s like their uniform. And… It’s very Western, right? It’s very, I mean, it’s coming straight out of like European influences. Yet Japan’s on the other side of the world. But that’s the uniform for being professional at work there. And that it’s even more prescribed than it is here where everybody’s literally wearing the same exact suit. It’s wild. Like if you were with someone and lost them, you might… It might take you a really long time to locate them

because they would just be lost in this crowd. It’s so interesting. And,

you know, once again, we’re looking at like the other side of the planet. This idea of professionalism has made its way there.

Maggie Greene:

Total homogeneity, right?

Amanda:

Yeah.

Maggie Greene:

Like the ultimate in conformity.

Amanda:

Definitely, oh my gosh, yeah, conformity, for sure. So speaking of conformity, you know, I think we’ve talked a lot about what is professional and we really haven’t really like solidified on like, this is the definite definition of what is professional to wear. But I do think we have an idea of what is often considered unprofessional, right? Like I will just say, I am a very unprofessional looking person. I have very long hair. I wear it down. I wear a lot of bold prints and ruffles. I wear weird shoes. I wear white eyeliner. You know, I’m breaking, I don’t wear a belt, but I guess I would be allowed to. I’m definitely breaking all of the rules of all of the dress codes we’ve just discussed. And yeah, like, oh, and I’m covered with tattoos. So there’s that too. But I’m sure, Maggie, I mean, you yourself has… have dealt with these ideas of being unprofessional or professional both like on your own but also with your clients.

Maggie Greene:

Oh yeah, absolutely. Um, so one of the things that comes to mind when I think about unprofessional is I want to introduce a little bit of hope and positivity the folks who are listening to you all we’ve, we’ve gotten, gotten kind of dark and deep today, but

Amanda:

I guess it turns out dress codes are like really dark.

Maggie Greene:

So there, there are a number of campaigns circulating the globe about like, dismantling the myth around professionalism and just like, totally breaking apart that standard. I don’t know who had the first campaign, but it’s like, it’s a side by side sort of image where you see a person covered in tattoos, piercings, maybe they have funky colored hair on one side, all of those things are visible and on the other side you see them buttoned up with their white coat, you know, maybe they’re a doctor. It’s like this idea that, you know, in order to be trusted to offer life-saving care or whatever, you have to fit this certain archetype, obviously that’s not true, right? I know a lot of amazing doctors, lawyers, people on Wall Street who, like you, Amanda, are covered in tattoos. They might even like white eyeliner and like monkey shoes every once in a while.

Amanda:

Yeah

Maggie Greene:

The idea that professionalism has anything to do with what you’re wearing, I think, is total bullshit. I feel like all of us can probably agree that that’s the case.

There are, you know, I mentioned industries and regionality. Like those… things are important considerations. You’re gonna see variation across different spaces, but like the most strict and stringent in terms of dress code, like doctors come to mind, lawyers, anyone who works in money, like financial managers, politicians, even teachers to a degree as like public servants. Yeah, the idea is they can’t. They can’t be trusted if they have funky colored hair or you know those kinds of things make them unprofessional. It’s just not true Anyone who has ever Spent any time in a sally beauty supply store or who works there I want to apologize in advance because this may be triggering but when we’re talking about unprofessional that idea there was a big campaign associated with I think a line of products or something from Sally that featured a queer creator, I believe, a musician and vocalist who sang a song called Colored Hair and the hook, like the chorus of the song was, having colored hair doesn’t make you unprofessional. The reason why I said this may be triggering, I have since found out, this was a few years ago, I’ve since found out they played that song on loop. in stores like all the time. So I am sorry to anyone that brings up.

Amanda:

Okay, when you were saying it, I did feel like I knew that song because I had definitely spent some time at Sally.

Uh, so maybe that’s why I was familiar.

Maggie Greene:

Um, I think Amanda, you mentioned caught like tie-collared blouses when we were talking about like, um, women or feminine presenting folks, like showing up in these more powerful positions and leadership roles. I discovered and developed an affinity for that exact style of garment in pursuit of finding creative and fun ways to conceal my tattoos.

Um, I- also have a lot of them, several of which are now more visible than in past years. Like I told myself for the longest time, I wasn’t going to go past like my, like cap sleeve length, you know, just the top of my shoulders. I’m like, fuck that. I’m in Seattle now. I have my own business. I’m going to go full on sleeve probably on both

Maggie Greene:

at some point, but I have, I was always. I am still to a degree, there’s like some residual, shame is the first word that comes to mind, just like consciousness and awareness of the tattoo I have across my chest. It definitely draws attention if it’s visible, if I’m in a, especially if I’m in a professional setting. And really, especially when I was working in like those business professional environments, like state government. Even though I was never reprimanded or directly called out for it, there were unspoken reactions that made me even more sensitive about it. When I went for job interviews, I always went for something with a high neck to make sure that wasn’t even an issue. I love, love a tie collar blouse. Like I said, through… trying to figure out how to cover up my tattoo, I discovered like, hey, this is something that I actually love, with or without the tattoo. Yeah, I got really frustrated because, again, I mentioned this, right? I’d make quite an effort to show up as professional and I look around at my colleagues and I’m like, sweatpants and tank tops and flip flops. Let me think. Okay, we were talking about law. In terms of like keeping pace with like fashion changes and even just like social conventions. Law is the slowest moving, right? They are like the oldest of the outdated antiquated rules. I have a friend right now who works in government that operates in that same space and she happens to have like crazy rainbow hair. which is amazing, like half her head is shaved, it’s really vibrant and dramatic. So that’s fine when she’s like inside the main agency, but when she has to make court appearances, instead of changing her actual hair, she has like a wig collection

Amanda:

Wow.

Maggie Greene:

of like

Ruby Gertz:

Oh, all right.

Maggie Greene:

all different, quote unquote natural colors and textures to cover it up. when she has to show up for court, which is pretty cool, but we’re also talking about financial barriers. She’s made a substantial investment to adhere and conform to these standards after paying what I can only imagine is hundreds of dollars to maintain that amazing hair color, right?

Amanda:

Yeah, wow, and she’s probably hot. Cause wigs are hot. I mean, they are hot looking, but also like hot temperature.

Maggie Greene:

Temperature, yes, yes.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah, wow. I mean, yeah, that’s a real devotion to both professionalism and having cool hair. You know, another thing that, I don’t wanna get too deep into you, but that does come up as a lot of. as a part of a lot of dress codes that I also think can be kind of, I don’t know, sometimes it’s subjective, but often more than anything it’s hurtful, and I think it can be classist as well, are hygiene codes. I know, Maggie, you have some stories about that. You all already in the last episode heard about my armpit hair. This is one that I, like, for lack of a better adjective, it sucks.

Maggie Greene:

So I want to acknowledge the armpit hair comment and say like, I am team armpit hair as well. It’s been just in the last couple of years that I’ve fully embraced that and owned it and like, I don’t give a fuck. But I also have the privilege of not answering to someone who has a dress code, I don’t report to a company or you know, a supervisor anymore. So all of that to say, body hair as a concept comes up a lot in client conversations.

There’s definitely an expectation from media and just general Western standards of beauty that for women and feminine presenting folks, that’s unacceptable, which I don’t understand. But so that’s on armpit hair. I just want you to know, I’m with you on that. Uh, body odor is another thing that comes to mind. I had a friend who worked at a small town bank. They had a really, really strict dress code, pantyhose, like nylons were specified.

Amanda:

Ugh.

Maggie Greene:

That gives you an any idea of like how, how strict it was. Um, but my friend was taken aside by I think initially a coworker as like a friendly like, hey, heads up, this is kind of an issue or it could become an issue, but was later ultimately reprimanded by a supervisor. Like there had been complaints that they had an evident body odor, whatever that means.

So yeah, I mean, I don’t remember the exact like, I feel like they transferred them to a different area. Like they were definitely customer facing right at the front, like a teller position. Yeah, I wanna say maybe they gave them an ultimatum. It was like, this has gotta be addressed or we’re gonna like put you in the basement kind of thing. Like with the scanner, I don’t know, but there was definitely a verbal reprimand and I will never forget that conversation. Like they were… devastated. I mean, completely humiliated and tight, you know, caught off guard. Yeah, so that’s one thing that comes to mind. The…

Ruby Gertz:

Iit just seems really mean. It just seems like really mean to reprimand somebody for something like that. Cause it’s like, you really don’t know what that person, what that person’s story is, right? Like it could be something that’s completely outside of their control. Like sometimes people have to like take certain medication that could like cause body odor or maybe they’re like, yeah, like suffering from some illness or something, you know, like there’s just so much like.

hormonal stuff, it could be so much stuff there, I think, that is already so kind of like… shameful and hard to deal with, and then to be told on top of that other people are noticing this and have a problem with it is like…It just strikes me as cruel.

Maggie Greene:

as like corporate sanctioned bullying.

Amanda:

I mean, how humiliating. How, like, and then you, you know, you probably have no choice but to come back there again the next day, and it does. It feels like bullying. Like, it doesn’t have to be like a work conversation. It’s really, really fucked up. I have had to, at one of my jobs, I was forced by the district manager to have a conversation with someone who worked for me about their body odor, and I just like. I wished I would die while we were doing it.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, it’s hard to even tell someone you love. Like, I don’t know, sometimes I feel like I want to like tell a family member, like someone I’m very close to and like love dearly, like, hey, like, you know, like this is kind of getting a little, are getting a little pungent. It’s like hard, you know, it’s like someone you love, someone you don’t know at all or like have a relationship with outside of work. Like that’s such a tough thing to have to confront.

Amanda:

Yeah, it’s terrible. But then also the companies will have policies about like requiring people to wear makeup, right, or groom their hair a certain way. And these things also just I mean, there’s like 100 things under the covers there. They’re all terrible. But it feels like such an invasion of someone’s bodily autonomy to say like, hey, you need to wear mascara or you. need to change your shampoo or you have to stop using natural deodorant or I need you to straighten your hair or blow it out or something like that, you know?

Maggie Greene:

It’s totally body policing.

Amanda:

Yeah.

Maggie Greene:

Yes, like you mentioned the makeup thing. I have a friend who experienced exactly that. Like she had this really like super efficient morning routine that included showering and getting to the office while her hair was still wet. For some reason, the wet hair was an issue. While they were at it, it was like, we strongly encourage this. They couldn’t rec- require it explicitly, but they’re like, hey, you know, if, if you want to advance in this position, if you care about your workplace and how you present, like, we are going to encourage you to dry your hair, but also while you’re at it, because you also wear makeup. Like, how is how does that have anything to do with her ability to perform in her role? I don’t understand.

Ruby Gertz:

So there’s, that makes me think of, in the Dress Codes book that I read, I think we talked a little bit about Title IX in the last episode. But something we didn’t touch on that’s also pretty interesting is Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, which prohibits sex discrimination in employment. And so that was interesting because the book goes through a couple different, like, notable cases that were… brought to court, like as potential violations of Title VII. And it’s kind of a huge bummer because pretty much the courts ruled that like it’s actually totally fine for employers to have like different dress codes for men and women, like along these gender binaries. But it’s some of the some of them are like that where there was like one case, let’s see, it’s a Darlene Jesperson was a bartender at Harrah’s, so like a casino. And they basically were telling her like she had to wear makeup for work and she was like, I’m not going to like that has nothing to do with my work. And they basically were able to get around it by saying like, oh, you know, we have like an equivalent dress code for our male employees, but it’s not equivalent because it’s like, but it’s like, oh, makeup is like expected. It’s very, it’s very shitty and it’s very binary. And even though technically sex discrimination is prohibited, like companies find all this way, all these ways to get around it. Another thing that I thought was interesting along those lines, I think they were talking about Hooters and how they only hire like women who look a certain way to work at Hooters. And the way that a lot of these places are able to like get around that is like you’re not just being hired as like a server, you’re being hired as like a server slash performer. So you’re like technically kind of like auditioning for this role or like it kind of allows them by like reclassifying the positions. Yeah, it like allows them to essentially like justify policing your appearance because it’s like part of their business model or like part of their like client experience or something, which is really fucked up when you when you think

Amanda:

Yeah,

Ruby Gertz:

about

Amanda:

yeah.

Ruby Gertz:

it.

Amanda:

Well, that’s a great transition to another thing that often comes up relating to hygiene and dress codes that I definitely don’t like hearing about, which is undergarments. And specifically,

Ruby Gertz:

Oh.

Amanda:

it always comes back to the bra, right?

Ruby Gertz:

Okay…

Amanda:

I know Maggie, you have a little anecdote there.

Maggie Greene:

Yeah, so first of all, I know you mentioned this earlier in the conversation, Amanda, we had a listener

Amanda:

Ugh.

Maggie Greene:

weigh in on Instagram today about their experience growing up in a Catholic school environment where uniforms were required. On top of the uniform requirement was specific requirements around undergarments, like bras specifically, of course, like you said. they could only wear white or a quote unquote skin color, which is interesting because

there’s a spectrum of skin tones that they share that, like their teacher would do these dress code checks to the point where they would be asking these young women, young girls to open their blouses and reveal their bra strap to ensure that they were in compliance, which is a whole other level of fucked up. We’re talking about minors, children…

Ruby Gertz:

So creepy! Yeah.

Maggie Greene:

Really imbalanced power dynamic there. But from my personal experience, this really caught me off guard. And I’ll preface this by saying I’ve not had any interactions with this person since. Make of that what you will.

Amanda:

Oh, I’m making something, yeah.

Maggie Greene:

We had a networking conversation with this woman who is a doctor, has a PhD, not a medical doctor, but I mention that because I think there definitely is some element of privilege. Her education level is part of that. Based on those facts, I might have even had some bias and assumptions about what this person might have to say and insights they might have to share. So we’re talking about style, we’re talking about personal branding as normally I do with a network and conversation, just meeting this person for the first time. She and a team, I guess, had been tasked with a similar job to you, Ruby, is like overhauling their company dress code. How do they make these changes and kind of make sure that it covers everyone? And she was telling me… not what she actually said to this person, but like her inner dialogue as she was having a conversation with a person that she had observed not wearing any supportive undergarments. So in her mind, this was an issue. This person is not wearing a bra and should be wearing a bra. I don’t know exactly what she said to the person, but what she said to me was, in her mind, she was thinking like, you probably would feel better if you wore a bra. And like, I mean, I don’t know the person that she was talking about, I don’t know their gender, identity, or anything like that. What I do know is what it feels like to wear a fucking bra. And the idea that I might feel better with one versus without one was preposterous for starters.

Amanda:

Yes.

Maggie Greene:

But like, that this third party could make a judgment call on what… another person deems comfortable or uncomfortable for their own physical body, I mean, was stunning. I didn’t have anything to say to that. It was just like jaw drop. Wow.

Amanda:

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think there’s like bras, bra straps came up so many times today in the Instagram comments that clearly bras, they’re way too much of a part of dress codes and this idea of professionalism around like whether or not you choose to wear them, the color you choose to wear, the kind of bra you choose to wear. I’m sure if you wore A push-up bra to work, someone would have a problem with that. I’m not even gonna get into the birthday candle story that we heard on Instagram today from a listener. I’ll just urge you to go read the post. There’s a lot of policing of breast ownership.

And I just, I mean, it goes back to control, right? And people’s own biases around that.

Ruby Gertz:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

So I thought we could, this is a great transition into talking about some of our stories from listeners. And the first one is specifically about how women are, I don’t know, expected to dress within business and from someone who actually began their career in the 80s. So Ruby, you’re gonna read Pat’s story. So Pat wrote to us about corporate dress codes and I loved this message. It was so evocative of a time.

Ruby Gertz:

Alright. I graduated from college and entered the corporate world as a computer programmer in 1985. I worked in a somewhat small town, so dress codes were not as strict as in big cities. Most offices had dress codes for all workers. I don’t remember slacks being completely forbidden at my jobs, but it was implied I had to wear a skirt or dress to be taken seriously. I had one headhunter complain that the dress I had on was too feminine. Wearing florals and lace was not professional. The message was very clearly, dress feminine, but not too feminine. In bigger corporations, in bigger cities, a suit was expected. The most stringent dress codes required men to wear a dark suit, white long-sleeved shirt, tie, and black shoes. For women, the dress code was a skirted suit, blouse that covered the collarbones, pantyhose, and closed-toed pumps. The time of year did not change what was worn. If a dress or skirt was not lined, we needed a flip. Even with a lined skirt, I normally wore a camisole under my blouse. No one was to be able to see any outline of your bra. Keep in mind that as a programmer, I never dealt with external customers. I was only seen by other employees. A big tech company in the eighties was EDS owned by Ross Perot. He once got a lot of votes as a third party candidate for president. Rumors in the computer world was their dress code rivaled that of IBM and the employee orientation included hours of explaining how to dress properly for work. Those instructions included the proper undergarments a woman should wear. One place I worked had a seminar on dress for success. It was based on a book by the same name that came out in 1975 with a version for women released in 1977. Watch the movie Working Girl from 1988 to see how important the power suit was at the time. In 1990, I moved to Atlanta, Georgia to work for a major telecommunications company. There was no written dress code saying I could not wear slacks, but it was frowned upon. Part of the annual review documentation included if you dressed professionally. One of my female coworkers would make snide remarks when I wore slacks. She also made sure to tell me how she had enough suits to not repeat wearing one in a two week period. She was my peer, not my supervisor. As far as the economic impact, suits required dry cleaning and pantyhose expenses could add up. Retirement advice at the time would point out how much money you would be saving on clothing once you retired. Another problem was the shoes women had to wear. It was frowned upon to wear flats. When I was 31 years old, I ended up with a podiatrist because of the problems my shoes were causing. I wasn’t wearing high heels, just basic pumps with maybe one and a half inch heel. Now, almost 30 years later, I had to have surgery on a pinched nerve in my foot that started back then. Other women have horror stories of foot damage from the heels worn back in the day. Women in big cities who commuted via subway and bus were known to wear sneakers while commuting and carry their dress shoes with them. The corporation I currently work for doesn’t have strict written dress codes, but there are still implied standards, especially the higher up you go on the ladder. I’m glad I work from home and can wear what I want.

Amanda:

Made me really glad that I was not an adult in the 80s. This sounds terrible.

Ruby Gertz:

Totally. Especially the part about the shoes and

Amanda:

Yeah.

Ruby Gertz:

the foot damage and having to get surgery later. Especially when you think about the expense of that. Hopefully you have health insurance that can cover that surgery, right?

Amanda:

Yeah, right, right? I mean, I think this is very true. So much of the burden of these dress codes, it goes beyond even financial, but it can affect your health. Someone today on Instagram was talking about how they actually, they developed a skin condition from wearing pantyhose every day to school.

Ruby Gertz:

They’re like, they don’t breathe. They’re like, nylon or polyester. Like it’s not a nice fabric to have rubbing tightly against your skin.

Amanda:

no. I mean, this was interesting to me in many ways because some parts of this have changed, certainly with time, but not for everyone who works everywhere. It does seem as though pantyhose has fallen out of favor. Like, I think I remember being a small child and going to even like Burlington Coat Factory with my grandma and there’d be aisles of pantyhose. And now you go into even Macy’s and it’s a much smaller section, right? But. like other parts of this still exist. And as we were reading all of the Indeed stuff, there is still this gender binary within work dress codes. Right? Like even though Indeed was saying dresses or slacks or pantyhose or skirts or whatever, like it was very much like very clearly like, this is for men and this is for women. And ultimately, in addition to, this really just hurts everybody along the entire gender spectrum. because very few people can actually dress in the way that makes them feel their best.

Ruby Gertz:

Totally, totally. And I think when we were talking about visibility of undergarments as well, I think was something we didn’t touch on. We talked a lot about bras, but the line that Pat had in here about wearing slips under skirts, it made me think of the VTL, visible panty lines.

Amanda:

Oh my gosh, yes!

Ruby Gertz:

And how that is also often such a thing that comes up in dress codes for offices, is if there’s even a suggestion that you’re wearing underwear.

Amanda:

I think, when she talked about the camisole too. I mean, so think of that, like if you were gonna get dressed to go to work, first you’d put on an underwear and a bra and your pantyhose. Then you would put on a slip and a camisole. Or maybe it would be a one-piece slip. So we got another layer there. Then a blouse or a dress. Then a blazer or a cardigan. And this is year round.

Ruby Gertz:

a lot of layers, it’s a lot of layers.

Amanda:

and it’s a lot of money.

Ruby Gertz:

And you’re gonna sweat! Yeah, you’re gonna sweat! And she mentioned getting those shoes dry cleaned, like that’s incredibly expensive. Like I rarely get stuff dry cleaned now because I don’t wear nice stuff very often, but like every time I do I’m always like kind of sticker shocked by the price.

Amanda:

I know.

Ruby Gertz:

Like I’m always like, wait what? Like…

Amanda:

Well, and the other thing about dry cleaning, and I’m talking about this as a person who rarely gets dry cleaning done either, but men’s shirts are far less expensive to dry clean than a woman’s dress or blouse.

Like there’s like a pink tax even associated with dry cleaning.

Ruby Gertz:

Ugh.

Amanda:

And then you’re having to wear all these, like I’m sure they weren’t asking men to wear three layers of clothing to obscure their undergarments, you know?

Ruby Gertz:

No.

Amanda:

And yeah, I mean, I just, like, a lot of this carries into now. And conversely, there are plenty of people who, you know, are, maybe their gender assigned at birth, birth was male, or that is their gender expression, who really don’t want to wear a gray suit and a long sleeve white button-up and a tie and dress shoes and trouser socks 365 days a year either.

Ruby Gertz:

Absolutely.

Amanda:

So it’s just… I mean, because when I see men out in the city wearing suits in the summer, I’m like, how? There was this guy who would always appear in downtown Portland during the summer, who I would see him, he was like, he had the same commute as me. So I would see him on his bike wearing like a suit in like the fall winter. And then in the summer, I would see him just wearing dress pants and no shirt to ride his bike to work. Always made me laugh, but I was like, I get it.

Ruby Gertz:

Like entirely shirtless, like bare chested?

Amanda:

Entirely shirtless.

Ruby Gertz:

Oh my gosh.

Amanda:

But like dress pants. Yeah, like the shirt and jacket were in his briefcase or something.

And it was just so, I would see him every day, like no shirt, just writing to work.

I was like, it was like off-putting because you just don’t expect to see topless people at like eight in the morning, just in general.

And then I was like, yeah, I get it, because I’m so sweaty when I get to work. I can’t

even imagine having all those layers. But imagine if I had to wear all these other things just to hide the fact that I was wearing underwear, which we’re all wearing.

It’s just, yeah, it’s so gross. All right, what do we have? I know Maggie, you actually had some thoughts about the impact of dress codes on trans and gender nonconforming individuals. Did you wanna share those a little bit?

Maggie Greene:

Yeah, this comes up with my clients a lot. It’s, I think 50 to 60% of my clients identify as queer, somewhere on the LGBTQIA plus spectrum. So I work with a lot of trans folks, work with a lot of non-binary folks. Dress codes are a pain point. And I say pain intentionally, like forcing someone who… is not male or female to dress as male or female is exhausting, frankly. I mean, it zaps mental energy, it zaps emotional energy. I think we all can acknowledge, we have in previous episodes, like there are more people that exist than just men and women, and yet when we see dress codes, they are largely categorized. in alignment with this idea of a binary gender. So my thoughts are like, where does everyone else fit in? How are they supposed to navigate that?

How do they comply with the quote unquote rules and still maintain their individual identity? It’s not possible. In a lot of cases, I’m thinking about a client right now who is non-binary, but who is not out at work. The dress code is part of that, part of their decision to not disclose that about themselves in their work environment. So they work in a male-dominated industry in a pretty fairly conservative type of role. They’re like literally and figuratively masking on a daily basis. They’re, you know, you mentioned the idea of a costume, like they’re putting on a costume, a face, a veneer, embodying a character or persona that’s not in alignment with who they are authentically. I mean, like I said, it zaps their energy, it takes away their focus, it can actually be a distraction, like while at the workplace, which no doubt has an impact on their ability to do their best work. It drains their social battery, right? It also This is something that we worked through as well. Like it leaves them exhausted at the end of the day. Like they don’t have a lot of bandwidth left for things like social engagements and self-care even. Um, so back to the, the quote from the article that was referenced a little bit earlier, like lower paid employees having to choose between saving up and dressing up. In this person’s case, they’re forced to choose between. prioritizing their mental health and psychological safety. Like that’s one choice. Do I wanna be safe? Do I wanna have, you know, like good positive mental health experiences or do I wanna be who I am at work? Like they’re mutually exclusive. They don’t get to have both. It’s really scary. It’s also, you know, we’ve used these words throughout this conversation. It’s dehumanizing and demoralizing. And frankly, like I think people deserve better.

Amanda:

Absolutely. Even if you’re just like, I am a cold-hearted capitalist, right? Take all of your care of people, about people out of the equation. Wouldn’t you realize that forcing people to adhere to these policies really robs them of their productivity? If your goal is to get the maximum amount of work out of your workers, why would you make them dress in a way that is uncomfortable physically and mentally and therefore probably prevent them from being as productive as you might want. I don’t know. I feel like all the jobs I’ve had, there’s been a lot of hang up on getting as much work out of every possible person, right?

Ruby Gertz:

Totally. I feel like it’s kind of one of those arguments, Amanda, where it’s almost like the fat-phobia thing too, where it’s like, why wouldn’t you just want to sell to like all these people that want to buy clothes? But it’s like, I don’t know, I feel like there is like this weird like level at which like prejudice like eclipses capitalism as like the number one goal. It’s like actually no, it’s actually more important that people are like feel shitty and bad.

Amanda:

Yeah,

Ruby Gertz:

It’s like, why?

Amanda:

it’s true. I think you just hit it there because it’s been something that I go round and round about where I’m like, I just don’t understand. Like so many so many companies out there will do everything they can to make a dime, like just throwing ethics out the window in every possible way. But then be like, I’m not going to dress fat people or I’m not going to let people dress as themselves at work. Like, just because.

Ruby Gertz:

I wonder if it’s like, I don’t know, back to the power thing,

Amanda:

Yeah.

Ruby Gertz:

right? It’s like, I mean, it really sucks, but it’s like, maybe that’s like, for to serve those goals, right, to keep everybody like striving towards whatever, you know, the goal of capitalism is. It’s like the hierarchy, maybe this is like so dark, but like maybe the hierarchy actually is more important than profit, like, at all costs. Like maybe having… Yeah, having people who, I don’t know, it’s like everybody’s like, well, I don’t want to be like that person, that person has it really rough, so like, I’ll just stay in my corner over here. I don’t know.

Amanda:

I mean, I think you might be onto something there, honestly. And that is very disturbing about human nature, right?

Ruby Gertz:

I don’t know if it’s human nature, but it’s like the capitalist reality that we’re living in.

Amanda:

and that power is like a number one priority for many not all people maybe not even many people But for some people power is the ultimate prize. Beyond money.

Ruby Gertz:

more than profit.

Amanda:

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That’s pretty dark. You have any dark thoughts on that Maggie or maybe something less dark

Maggie Greene:

I mean, it resonates with me. Like, yeah, it makes sense. I think they think Ruby, you’re definitely onto something. It’s not pleasant to digest. Like, that’s why we have these conversations. They’re hard, they’re challenging. We’re trying to, you know, disrupt and

get people thinking critically about these things. So I guess there’s my positive note. Like, Mission accomplished in a way, like we’re doing the thing.

Amanda:

we’re doing the thing. Yeah, and I think like this is something that I have been thinking about a lot lately and I’m sure we’ll have more conversations about it in the future, which is this idea that, you know, yes, profit for many people, like money accumulation of wealth is a ticket to power, perhaps, and that it’s not the stuff that they get along the way, it’s the power. For other people, it is the stuff, right? And so you’ll see like some companies might lean into the profit side of it and maybe like show more concern for people in pursuit of profits. But others are like, you know, I just like really wanted to be in charge of something, you know? And

yeah, I mean, it’s just like, yeah, dress codes are just like another piece of this. You know, like we’re talking about here, work uniforms. dress codes, they’re often intended to lend this air of professionalism, maybe even trustworthiness to employees in terms of like the way customers might view them. But when we talk about school uniforms, we’re really getting into more of kind of conformity for kids. And, you know, uniforms are often argued as a way of leveling the playing field in schools, which is maybe not entirely true as well. I was doing a lot of reading about school uniforms and I was telling both of you before we started recording that really, there are a lot of pieces about this all over the internet but they really just fall into two different arguments. The people who are for uniforms, it always comes back to, and I know we touched on this in the last episode, this implication of safety, right? That we are keeping, I don’t know, girls safe from sexual predators maybe? and we’re keeping boys safe from being distracted by girls. It’s like not great thinking. And the arguments against uniforms are like, hey, we’re just getting kids ready to accept a life of no individuality of conformity.

.

Ruby Gertz:

It made me think of this other quote that I had bookmarked from Dress Codes. It’s very much about how we teach children through dress codes and what we’re teaching them that really resonates. This also kind of has to do with what we were talking about before and like hierarchy and this concept of like punching down and there

kind of being someone to punch down to, which I think kind of keeps us all distracted right from actually punching up, which is what would be a lot more productive.

So this quote from Richard Thompson Ford says, modesty is by design always a moving target. Any group of women, no matter how they are dressed, can and will be divided into the virtuous and the sinful, the good girls and the bad girls. And because women carry the guilt of Eve’s original sin, moralists will always find some bad ones. When high schools enforce overly strict discriminatory dress codes, they’re doing what schools know how to do best. They are teaching their students. They’re teaching them that yoga pants aren’t just casual attire. They’re a sign of sin. They are teaching them that by example to identify, or sorry, they are teaching them by example to identify bad girls by what they wear and to treat those bad girls badly.

Amanda:

Yep. Even think about how the Catholic school uniform for girls has been turned into a sexy Halloween costume.

Maggie Greene:

yeah, it’s totally been fetishized, yep.

Amanda:

I mean, same thing with Japanese girls’ school uniforms as well. That’s another one that’s been fetishized. And yeah, I don’t know. Some of the articles I was reading that were sort of like pro school uniforms were saying, and I’m going to tell you right now, this is not true, that putting kids in uniforms or exercising a really strong dress code de-genders the student population. And I just feel like it actually exacerbates the gender, the genderization, is that even a word, of kids? Because it seems like so much focus is put on girls, right? And so it’s really about, I don’t know, it’s just policing bodies at this point. So I have a couple messages from listeners about their experiences with school and work uniforms. The first one is from Carla. She said, I’ve worked two jobs with specific mandatory uniforms, both of which were food service. As a fat assigned female at birth person, the uniforms were poorly sized for me. At one job where I was given a single uniform shirt to keep, the largest available size, too tight in the hips and much too wide in the shoulders and sleeves. And I did not have access to a sewing machine at the time to tailor it, which is a skill that is not common for service workers, regardless. At the other, there were backup shirts in the manager’s office, but they were never in a size that would fit comfortably. It should be noted I am what is considered small fat, which is a subjective term, but the point is that anyone larger than me would only struggle more. Both uniformed shirts were also made of the very non-breathable polyester and peeled quickly. I know this fabric way too well. The first job shirt was also in a color I would never wear that made me look sickly. I wonder legitimately how many people who were glad to have a level playing field of school uniforms or are or were thin. I am very glad I went to an art high school where I was not subject to stringent dress codes, much less uniforms. It was hard enough to be a fat teenager without being given the freedom to find my style for that fat body. I don’t know that I would have found Lolita fashion in the 2000s otherwise, and that’s a fashion community that has been core to my adult life. There are dress codes in the world that make sense. Requiring closed-toed shoes in a kitchen environment is a safety measure. Asking service employees to wear something that identifies them as an employee, such as a pin or an apron, lets customers know who can be asked for help. But I don’t know that purely aesthetic dress codes, especially in non-service settings, serve anyone but the boss’s feeling of control.” I thought, like, you know, one thing that came up a lot in the Instagram conversation today was that thin students were not being sort of harassed about dress code as often as fat students. Same thing with violations for work dress code. And I’ll tell you, like I had a coworker who was really hung up on writing people up for dress code. And it was always people who were larger or people that she just didn’t like. Like I think

dress code is just… so subjective and it’s like you were saying Ruby, it’s a distraction.

It’s a distraction for everyone, for the people who are subject to the dress code and for the people who are enforcing it.

Ruby Gertz:

Totally, right? Because it’s not, it’s like kind of like you were saying before about like what about quality of work, right? Or like productivity

Amanda:

how good you perform in school…

Ruby Gertz:

exactly, or like these other, these other things that would actually be like maybe really helpful to evaluate.

Amanda:

Yeah.

Ruby Gertz:

And it does, it totally keeps people distracted. And I think, I think it keeps people who do have a bit of power who are in those like supervisory positions or the position of an enforcer. of address code, it kind of keeps them punching down.

Amanda:

absolutely. We have another message from Jenny. She says, I grew up in a low income family and many of my clothes were purchased on sale or at places like Old Navy. I remember only purchasing what we could afford, which meant sometimes clothes did not fit perfectly, nor were they cut for young girls. Another story. Both in school and at church events, I remember being called out for revealing clothing. Perhaps a shirt was slightly too short because it had shrunk in the wash or I had chosen whatever was available to me. I remember these moments making me feel embarrassed about the clothes I owned, pieces I had otherwise enjoyed. I do not think there is enough discussion on the affordability of so-called acceptable clothing or the allowance for changing bodies that may not always keep up with your clothes. For schools that have low-income students, not only are uniforms a financial barrier, but dress codes can be prohibitive as well. And this is a really great one. I think just even, you know, when we talk about middle school or high school kids, you’re growing constantly, right? And it happens so fast. I remember specifically, I grew five inches over winter break. My mom didn’t even believe it. I’d gotten all these clothes for Christmas from my grandma and they fit me on Christmas day when I tried them on. And when it was time to go back to school, they were all too small. Like it just happened that fast. And like, I remember being in bed every night, like I think my bones are breaking. Like I was having major growing pains. And so now none of my clothes were be acceptable for dress code anymore. Because the shirts were too short, the skirts were too short. And what’s a family supposed to do in that situation? And it’s like penalizing someone for growing or their body changing. It’s really

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, even in adulthood, I think I can see this playing out with weight gain or weight loss or pregnancy or all of these things that cause somebody’s body to change quickly. And I think it’s so, I don’t know, yeah, it’s just, again, it’s kind of like the body odor thing where it’s like you don’t know what’s going on in somebody’s life. And to just look at this like visual thing and be like your shirt’s too short or like your skirt is showing too much leg. IAmanda:

And this

Amanda:

And kids get sent home for this. They like miss school because of this. And their parents have to come get them who might be unable to leave work. And so puts a financial burden on the family. It puts the parents in risk of losing their jobs. The kids literally miss getting an education. I have also had friends and coworkers who were sent home from work for dress code violations. It would be like, okay, well, I have to take a bus home, so I’m not gonna be back for like four hours, or I have to spend money on an Uber that I don’t have. You know, like these are all just, it’s almost like the dress codes are more destructive than they are constructive.

Maggie Greene:

Uh, yeah, understatement of the frickin’ century.

Amanda:

I know, I know.

Amanda:

Well, let’s talk about a word that comes up all the time when we talk about dress codes, especially work dress codes, and that is the term professionalism. So, I mean, in the last episode, we talked a lot about words that were really subjective. Maggie shared all kinds of words like that are used in school and work dress codes that really are not measurable and really are more of an opinion. everything I was reading about corporate dress code would drop the word professional, professionalism over and over again. And I wondered like, is this one of those words or is there something about the meaning that I’m not really getting? Well, according to Miriam Webster, a source cited in so many school reports over the years, professionalism is the conduct, aims or qualities that characterize or mark a profession or a professional person. Now why is the word professional allowed to be used in a definition for professionalism? I don’t know. Seems like one of those things that you would get in trouble for in a school report, right?

Ruby Gertz:

It does, it does.

Amanda:

It does.

Maggie Greene:

Dig deeper, dig deeper. There’s gotta be more there.

Amanda:

But then when I looked at professional, it was just like, oh, a person who does a profession. And I was like, okay, so were we just, is this like, like just a weird cycle I’m gonna be in with these words where one’s gonna take me back to the other over and over again? And, you know. Ultimately, I looked at a bunch of different sources and it was the same story, which leads me to believe that professionalism for all of the hype around it really isn’t, it doesn’t have a clear definition, right? And I guess that doesn’t really surprise me when we think about all of the other words that Maggie cited last week that are part of dress codes, right, like appropriate, distracting, proper, clean, neat. You know, those things are. in the eye of the beholder for certain, and it seems as if professionalism is the same way. But as we talk about professionalism, I wanna remind everybody of something we talked about last week. This came from Ruby and her excellent reporting on the history of dress codes. She said there are four elements in every. outfit basically, and this applies to dress codes as well, status, power, sex, or really for our purposes, gender, and personality. And I think when you start to consider those words, when we talk about professionalism, you start to see what’s really happening here. Now, the definition I read of professionalism would imply perhaps that professionalism is based on behavior. Like… how you carry yourself, right? How you communicate with others, how you treat others, the quality of your work, which you would think would be probably the most important part of professionalism would be being knowledgeable and skilled at your job and working hard, right? And then ethics and values, you would also think would be a big part of professionalism, like sticking to your deals, not treating partners poorly. you know, working together collaboratively, that kind of thing. But that’s not really what we’re talking about when we talk about dress codes and them being sort of a reflection of professionalism.

Ruby Gertz:

I just wanted to piggyback off of what you were saying about the definition of professionalism and how it’s always kind of this like moving target, right? I think it’s one of those words that’s used, especially within dress codes to like assert power, right? Which is one of the, like power and status really come into play, I think, with professionalism in particular and also. sex and gender, but we’re gonna probably talk about that with status and power enforcing expectations on people with less power and less status.

Amanda:

I mean, status comes up time and time again in all the reading I did about dress codes. And we’re gonna in a few share indeed’s guide to business attire where status is so intensely implied. That’s like, that’s what this is really all about.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, definitely. So the quote that I pulled from Dress Codes by Richard Thompson Ford, it has to do with women in the workplace, specifically. And he talks about, you know, what we’re talking about, like, patriarchy and dominance of, you know, like, the masculine over the feminine and how that plays out in our culture. He actually ties it back to this concept of eeve and original sin, which is really kind of interesting.

But I guess if you think about like school dress codes and how that’s reinforced, especially in like religious schools, that kind of makes sense, you know, that like it’s always the woman’s fault.

Sort of this like through line, right? That we have inherited along with patriarchy, which really sucks.

But yeah, so this one quote that I wanted to share. He titles it fashion victims and it’s kind of this conclusion to a chapter that’s all about women in the workplace and specifically women in the law professions.

And he says, the ancient imperative to separate virtuous from fallen women still defines today’s dress codes and many use it to justify obsessive control over women’s bodies. While some dress codes punish women, like Darlene Jesperson and those who reject high heels for refusing sexual objectification and decorativeness, which is another anecdote shared previously in the chapter, equally potent rules and expectations demand feminine modesty. Modesty may seem the opposite of or even an antidote to sexual objectification and decorativeness, but in fact both dress codes require women to cater to the desires of men. While the sexualized, decorative woman must make herself pleasing to the eye, modest woman is obliged to avoid drawing attention to herself. The demands of decorativeness and modesty are opposite sides of a single patriarchal coin which the modern woman must balance on its edge.” I thought that just like speaks so concisely to this struggle that we’ve been voicing so much in the previous episode and I’m sure we’re going to dive a lot deeper in to this episode as well especially with the stories that uh that listeners shared.

Amanda:

Definitely, I mean, before we started recording, Maggie and I were recounting for Ruby all of the comments and stories we received on Instagram today about dress codes, and

the recurring theme was control, especially around women’s bodies.

Maggie Greene:

Yeah.

Amanda:

And sometimes too, just such an egregious level, I’m shocked. I mean, I’m not shocked, but I just was like, this is so fundamentally unethical, the way… these women were being treated at work or in school as girls, that how could that be professional? You know?

Maggie Greene:

It’s interesting as you all are sharing this, I’m thinking about that phrase, like the two most impolite or probably unprofessional topics of conversation that you can introduce them to a group of people or religion and politics.

And both of those things are something that we’re going to touch on today. But like as Ruby was reading that quote, I was taking notes, like virtuous sticks out as like a red flag type of word for me versus fallen.

Fallen as in “Fallen from grace” like of course modesty was definitely something that stuck out to me too and like the idea of virtuosity and modesty kind of coming from I Mean frankly like white supremacists colonialists like hyper religious extremists, you know background it all it all tracks. Doesn’t mean it makes sense or it’s right, but I’m like, oh, ugh, you know, just makes it even more cringe.

Amanda:

Yeah, it really, really does. It is, I was thinking about the other night, like after we recorded our other conversation, I was thinking about how when I was a kid, I thought that when I grew up, I would finally get to like really own my life, right? Like what I did, what I wore, where I spent my time, when I ate, when I slept, that kind of thing. And something that has constantly perhaps, I don’t know, disappointed me as an adult is that Like that freedom’s not always there. In fact, it’s frequently not there, depending on where you live, how much money you have, the other circumstances surrounding your life, where you work. Like there isn’t freedom to be who you are most of the time. And sorry if you’re a teenager listening to this and you thought things were gonna get better. I don’t know if they will. But you know, like I think when we talk about dress codes as adults, you start to see that No, you don’t get to wear what you want to work necessarily or to be super comfortable. And even I, you know, I’ve worked in fashion my whole career, so ostensibly I could wear whatever I wanted to work anytime, but really that wasn’t true. You know, I had to dress for a role every day. Not what I was feeling like wearing that day or what was most comfortable to me, like physically or like emotionally. And I think… I didn’t even have to wear pantyhose or any of these other just like really archaic policies around clothing. I could probably have shown my bra strap if I wanted to. Apparently that is like one of the worst things you can do in school based on all the Instagram chatter today.

So I was like, what is business attire? Because I’m going to be level, like I have not had a job where I’ve had to adhere to like a business attire. wardrobe per se. I mean, there were obviously, like I said, unspoken codes in place for what I should or should not wear to work, but it wasn’t like spelled out in like a manual, except for, you know, when I was working with customer service facing jobs. And so I came across this Indeed guide to business attire and it was actually really illuminating for me. And I have a lot of questions. And I noticed someone went in here and underlined some of the words in the doc, and I’m just assuming it was Maggie.

But they were the exact questions I was having, so I can’t wait to talk about these. So I guess the first thing is I guess I sort of knew this, but didn’t know this, that there are different kinds of business attire. I don’t know if either of you knew this. There was one in here specifically that I had never heard of before. But the one I have heard is casual business attire. And the quote from Indeed is, you might wear casual clothing if you work in an informal office where others wear things like t-shirts, jeans, and here’s the one that really blows people’s minds, open-toed shoes.

Awearing casual dress with clients and in interviews even if the office is casual overall, which I thought was really interesting because I don’t know about either of you, but I have… When I have gone in for job interviews at different companies, there has been in the invite for the interview, like, hey, we’re a casual office, dress comfortably, like that kind of thing.

So I thought it was interesting that this, that Indeed is like, don’t do that. It’s a trap. Because

we, specifically one of the jobs I had, like that definitely was something that they said to potential candidates. And If you wanted to interview them and they were wearing like a suit, it was like, no, it’s not going to work out, not a cultural fit. And so indeed sort of setting some people up possibly to be rejected just on the basis of being dressed up too much. But according to Indeed, casual dress includes items like t-shirts, button down shirts, which I thought was interesting because to me, and I see that you underline this Maggie, to me, that’s like more dressed up, uh, blouses and sweaters on top. Bottoms might include jeans, khakis, this is not gonna be the first time we talk about khakis today, linen pants, cropped pants, or shorts. Casual shoes can include sneakers, loafers, low heels, or sandals. No flip-flops on there, I guess. That would be like too far over the line. So have any of you had a business casual job.

Maggie Greene:

I mean, yes, technically,

Amanda:

Does it sound a little dressier to you? I don’t know. Ha ha ha.

Maggie Greene:

Well, here’s where it got really interesting. Because if you look on paper what the parameters are and the guidelines and expectations of the dress code, and then you look around the physical office environment, things did not always add up. As soon as you said flip-flops, I was like, oh, I’m about to pop up out of my chair. Because that was one of my biggest frustrations with the quote unquote business casual environment in which I worked. I really… made a concerted effort to embody that quote unquote professional appearance, right? Like, really sticking to the guidance in terms of what business casual is usually defined as. However, I had colleagues, some of whom were in leadership and middle management positions, who were like, literally, I mean, wearing sweatpants and flip-flops and tank tops. And I never understood how that was acceptable. But like if a tiny little peak of my tattoo showed over top of my button up blouse or whatever, you know, I would get like raised eyebrows around me. I don’t know. Yeah. I think enforcement and compliance are like maybe another issue. You know, they establish these standards and everyone’s expected to adhere to them. But I think the enforcement and compliance might be also subjective, potentially discriminatory. If I thought a little bit deeper, I could probably make that connection even more clearer with examples. Amanda:

No,

Amanda:

I mean what you just said, Maggie, is exactly what I was thinking, that when or if it is enforced, there is probably an ulterior motive involved. I noticed a recurring theme as people were talking on Instagram today about dress codes, is it was sort of like, you might not be targeted for dress code violation in school or at work if people liked you or… there was nothing about you that they found, like that they didn’t have any subconscious biases towards, right, but if you were, you know, taller or not white or not feminine or, you know, on, right, you might be targeted. There were a lot of people saying like specifically they felt in high school that smaller, more petite girls were not targeted for dress code violations, but. Girls who were taller, bigger, had larger breasts, they were always targeted for it. And so it seems like if you’re gonna be policing people on dress code, it’s really easy to get all of your implicit bias wrapped up in it.

Ruby Gertz:

Totally.

Amanda:

I mean, I don’t know, Ruby, have you ever had a dress code situation like this? Like, what do you wear to work now?

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, yeah. Well, so my job now, I work at a fabrication shop, so I’m wearing clothes that I can get dirty like every day. So I kind of go to work in like t-shirts and yoga pants a lot of the time. But before this, I actually had probably eight year career in college admissions alongside my like freelance work in fashion. And that had a somewhat strict dress code. And actually, the last school that I worked for before the pandemic, me and a co worker were tasked with creating the dress code for our office.

Amanda:

UGH!

Ruby Gertz:

And it’s so funny that you quoted this article because I’m like rereading it now. And I’m like, I think this is the exact article that we looked at to like determine what we should put in this dress code. Because I’m remembering like this funny like breakdown of like the like casual business and like smart casual and like business professional and like these different like levels or like tiers. And it’s funny because I think that we determined that our office was somewhere between like smart casual and business casual.

Amanda:

Interesting.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah but we definitely like had to put a lot of this into practice and it’s interesting too because I think you know for a lot of people know, it was a very public-facing job. You have people coming in to like tour the campus and meet with an admissions counselor, so you’re constantly meeting with families, and you do have to make a good impression like that kind of is a part of the job. And so, yeah, it’s interesting, like a lot of us, especially the counselors and people that have like this more outward-facing role, a lot of us would like come to work in sneakers, but we would keep like a pair of heels or like… nice loafers like under our desk and we would keep a blazer, usually like I would keep a blazer like hanging on the back of my door and it was like if you know if suddenly you were called into like a meeting with the dean or something you would just like swap out your shoes and throw the blazer on whatever you were wearing to try to like dress it up. Which is funny because I would have not won blazers since that job but at that time I think I had like four or five that I would kind of like just kind of always have one at the office. And I didn’t wear it to work and I didn’t wear it at home, I just sort of lived at the office until it was dirty and then I took it home and swapped it with another one. But yeah, I mean it does kind of feel like a costume that you’re putting on, like when you get to work, like you put on your heels or you put on your nicer shoes.

Amanda:

Totally.

Ruby Gertz:

And then maybe you get out of the meeting and you’re just going to be like doing emails for the rest of the day, so you just like put your slide back on or whatever shoes you tend to work in. Yeah, I also have a couple… little anecdotes about interviews. Maybe we should get to that later though, because Iactually did interview some people and yeah, that came up a lot.

Amanda:

Let’s put a pin in that because I definitely want to hear about that. Because I thought it was, like I said, I thought like Indeed was maybe like, I don’t know, like misleading people a little bit here about what they should wear for interviews. Because there was like a whole section about that as well. And I was like, I don’t know. I mean, for many jobs, this would be coming in too hot, if you will, in terms of formality. So the next one, which I had never heard of is smart. casual. It seriously sounds like something someone’s grandma would have said in like the 1960s.

According to Indeed, smart casual is another form of casual business attire, and here’s where it gets so subjective with a stylish twist.

Ruby Gertz:

Ohhhh.

Amanda:

Smart casual might include items like blazers, sports jackets, ties, button-down shirts. Once again, this could be so confusing for a lot of people. Collared shirts, dresses, sweaters, trousers, khakis. Again, khakis. skirts, blouses, heels, flats, dress shoes, clean sneakers, like what? Jewelry, belts, and scarves. So you can wear more accessories, I guess, with Smart

Ruby Gertz:

You can

Amanda:

Casual.

Ruby Gertz:

wear belts.

Amanda:

You can wear belts, but before, no belts, no belts, no scarves. The clean sneakers thing gives me anxiety because cleaning sneakers is really

Ruby Gertz:

Oof.

Amanda:

hard sometimes.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

And once again, the likelihood of you getting in trouble for having dirty sneakers at work is really based on either like how much of an asshole your boss is or how much your HR person or manager wants to get rid of you, I think.

Maggie Greene:

Yeah.

Ruby Gertz:

Totally. And also I think like your marginalized status, right? Like people are probably more likely to notice dirty sneakers on someone who already doesn’t, you know, I guess, you know, fit the like white supremacist ideal mold of like what an ideal employee is or something, right? Like I think there’s so much more scrutiny.

Amanda:

Absolutely, absolutely.

Maggie Greene:

It made me think too with casual business attire, like the implication of specifying clean sneakers with smart casual means that you can wear totally dirty ones in a casual business environment. And like that’s totally on brand.

Amanda:

Like just come on in there like covered with mud and you like stepped in dog poop but like no

one cares?

Maggie Greene:

Yeah.

Amanda:

No, I know, it’s really, it’s really, these are so silly.

Maggie Greene:

On the class side of things, I was thinking about commuters who may or may not take public transit. There’s some walking to get to where they’re going. And shoes, just by virtue of being worn in those environments, then you might add on weather, like rain and slush in wintertime. Keeping sneakers clean is like a peak privilege.

Ruby Gertz:

And that’s why you keep them under the desk. That’s why

Maggie Greene:

There

Ruby Gertz:

we all did

Maggie Greene:

you

Ruby Gertz:

that.

Maggie Greene:

go.

Ruby Gertz:

We were living in Philadelphia. Like everybody took transit

Amanda:

Yeah,

Ruby Gertz:

to

Amanda:

seriously.

Ruby Gertz:

work,

Amanda:

I mean,

Ruby Gertz:

was working in Center City, like, yeah.

Amanda:

I had snow boots, rain boots, outdoor shoes, versus indoor shoes, for sure. Whereas here in Austin, it’s such a driving culture, and plus our weather here is pretty much mostly the same all the time. You don’t see that. I don’t see people bringing a spare pair of shoes to work because they’re not gonna be walking that far.

Ruby Gertz:

Very interesting.

Amanda:

So. Next one is business casual. And this is one of those things, like I’ve never had anybody say like, oh, we have a business casual dress code to me, like as an employee, but it’s definitely one of those things I’ve seen out there when people talk about like casual Fridays at work, or like this work retreat is gonna be business casual, or just like, you know, I’ve seen it in emails from companies, like honestly who are trying to sell clothes. Here are some examples according to Indeed of business casual. Pencil skirts, I thought this was interesting. Pencil skirts, maybe not a pleated skirt, I don’t know

Ruby Gertz:

Ah.

Amanda:

why.

Ruby Gertz:

Ha ha ha.

Amanda:

Slacks, khakis, trousers, blouses, collared shirts, here we go again, button down shirts, apparently you can just wear them anytime. Sports coats, blazers, and sweaters. Accessorize with jackets, ties, simple jewelry, and belts. Shoes can include flats. lifestyle sneakers, whether leather or canvas, oxfords, loafers, mules, don’t see a lot of mules at work these days, boots or heels. The lifestyle sneakers thing is something that I am aware of only because one of my first jobs as a buyer was in shoes. And when we would meet with Nike, Adidas, like the sneaker brands, Their line sheet was broken out by like true athletic, which like at my first job, they wouldn’t sell to us because we weren’t like, you know, a sneaker store and lifestyle, which are sneakers that aren’t really for doing athletic things.

And it’s a whole business, right? And so these are more like fashion sneakers, although unless you’re like an avid runner or like an athlete, you’re not gonna look at them and be like, oh, those are lifestyle sneakers, right?

Maggie Greene:

Yeah, I had actually never heard that term specifically until reading this article and I’m like, I immediately knew what it was in reference to right it’s like a

Amanda:

Right.

Maggie Greene:

sneaker that’s not like a trainer like specifically for the athletics like you said but I’d never heard it called that.

Amanda:

I mean, I think that’s a weird term for them to use because how many people really know what that means.

Maggie Greene:

Well, it’s, yeah, it’s so generic and void of substance. Like, isn’t every sneaker out there technically a lifestyle sneaker? Like, we’re living

Amanda:

Right?

Maggie Greene:

our lives,

Ruby Gertz:

Right?

Maggie Greene:

you

Amanda:

Right,

Maggie Greene:

know?

Amanda:

right, yeah, no, totally. I mean, I remember the first time I went with Nike, like when I first moved into buying, and I was asking about some sneakers that I’d seen, and they were like, oh no, sorry, you’re a lifestyle retailer. You have to choose from this catalog. And

Ruby Gertz:

Huh.

Amanda:

they were like, I remember one of the pairs of sneakers they showed us the very first time was made of like, zebra print pony hair, and I was like, wow, this is such a useless shoe. I guess that’s what lifestyle means.

Ruby Gertz:

It makes me think of like that very like kind of like sneaker head look of like very jazzy shoes

Amanda:

Yeah.

Ruby Gertz:

with like a suit or something, you know, like

Amanda:

Totally…

Ruby Gertz:

I feel like that’s very trendy

Amanda:

Jazzy!

Ruby Gertz:

at the moment.

Amanda:

Hahaha!

Ruby Gertz:

And I don’t know. Trendy, very clean freakishly clean sneakers

Amanda:

Hahaha!

Ruby Gertz:

that look like you’re wearing them for like the first moment like right now.

Amanda:

Totally, yeah, I know, I know. Those are the ones that you take. I remember in LA near Little Tokyo, there was actually a place you could take your sneakers to be cleaned. That’s like all they did was clean sneakers. And of course it was like a bougie. It was like sneaker spa or something like that. But I guess that’s where you take your lifestyle sneakers and give them a spa day. So I was just like guessing, Maggie, that when you have to, probably most of your clients, when you have to help them. with work-related clothing, I would suspect that a lot of them fall into this business casual.

Maggie Greene:

Yeah, something else that stuck out to me though, I don’t know if you all realized that you mentioned confusion. So just on that note, we have casual business and we have business casual.

Amanda:

I know! I

Ruby Gertz:

Hahaha!

Amanda:

mean, I had made a typo when I was working on this and I was like, nope, that’s what

Maggie Greene:

No.

Amanda:

this is.

Maggie Greene:

So

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Maggie Greene:

in casual business, casual sort of leads, I suppose,

Amanda:

Right.

Maggie Greene:

or takes priority. Whereas in business casual, maybe the ratio is more skewed towards business. So yes, I mean, it is perpetual confusion with my clients. It’s how do I do this? How do I navigate this? While also still like, feeling authentically me? How do I adhere to these rules when they don’t even follow any kind of line of logic? Like, I’m looking at these notes and as people are listening, maybe they’re picking these things up too. Like, some of the same elements, like garment styles that are listed under casual business are also listed under smart casual, are also listed under business casual. So like button down shirts, for example, you see make an appearance in all of these different spaces, these different, you know, rules.

Blouses. Okay, we see blouses also in all of those categories. Then there’s this other, like I made a note of this, like pants versus slacks versus trousers. Hello, like, what are, what are the delineations like? I don’t know, like no wonder people are confused. And I mean, my advice always with clients is like, let’s solve for the authenticity piece first.

And if there are like tweaks and adjustments that need to be made to sort of like, well, I mean, protect their physical and psychological safety at work, that’s really fricking important.

But also, you know, like compliance, if it’s really strict, how do we… walk that line, you know, that’s my favorite space is like, okay, here’s the rules. Let’s look for the loopholes, the technicalities, like how can we get around these things without, you know, arbitrarily breaking rules. So it’s interesting, but I mean, even this advice, as clear as it might be in terms of like format and structure, is just as confusing as just saying the word business casual, you know? Um…

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah,

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

no, I thought this was very confusing. For example, dresses, right? So dresses are mentioned as part of Smart Casual and as part of Business Casual. But the thing about dresses is that we all know that dresses can come in a really wide spectrum. Like, for example, one of my coworkers last week was wearing this cute, just pretty basic knit, black spaghetti strap dress. And I was like, oh, you look so cute. Where did you get your dress? And she said, Cabela’s. And I said, wait, no, but where did you really get it? I don’t know if both of you know what Cabela’s is.

Ruby Gertz:

Yes, it’s like a sporting goods store, yeah.

Amanda:

an outdoor store, right? But more for hunting and fishing.

Ruby Gertz:

Yes.

Amanda:

And I was like, wait, really? And she’s like, yeah. I was like, OK. And it was like, we have a very casual office, right? So I was like, yeah, it would be fine. I mean, not that I’m ever going to write someone up for dress code, sorry, like not that person. But I. you know, it would make sense in a casual workplace, but if your place is more like business casual, I feel like probably like a t-shirt dress isn’t okay. Right?

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, I was thinking that Amanda, like as somebody with like a fashion background, it feels like this text was written by somebody who actually has like no idea at all how to describe clothes,

Because like even button down shirts, right? Like there’s such a wide variety, like a Hawaiian shirt is technically like a button down shirt, but that would not be right. Even fiber content too, I think plays a really important role, right? Like there’s a huge difference between like a polyester suit that you found, you know, at like Burlington Coat Factory and like a bespoke wool suit from like Denya or something, you know? Like there’s such a range.

Amanda:

Yeah, even to go more basic, there’s like a big difference between knit pants and woven pants, right? In terms of like their perceived, I don’t know, casualness, right?

Or even how they would look. You know, like think if someone came to work wearing like drop crotch joggers, well, those are pants. I guess they’re not trousers, right? But like, where do those fit in here? I mean, even khakis like. khakis could be just your straightforward twill pants, but they could have cargo pockets. And does that make them less casual?

Or there was a trend for a while where it seemed like guys who worked in advertising in Portland would wear salmon-colored chinos. Is that business casual? Is that casual business? I don’t know.

Ruby Gertz:

Right? Or like garments with prints versus solids and what prints? Like is it a small print or a large print?

Amanda:

It’s interesting that you bring that up, too, because as I was reading this, and I think you’re so right, Ruby, that it’s that whoever wrote this doesn’t know anything about clothes. It’s so terrible.

But there is a big perception in terms of the formality or, I don’t know, professionalism of prints versus solids, because there is a lot of, I don’t know, like, prints have been really gendered. And as we know, the great masculine denunciation has really steered business attire in this century. It’s just like going strong. And I would assume that prints wouldn’t be a part of that. Like maybe a little bit of like a fine plaid or fine houndstooth or something, but not like a floral print, not

like bunnies all over it. Like not conversational prints as they’re called.

You know, at ModCloth, we got a lot of asks for where to work clothing. And I manage the dresses team then, and I said to my team, I was like, I don’t know what that means. Like, honestly, I have only ever dressed like a wild, eccentric person to go to work. Like, what does that mean? And we had to do all this reading and research. And one of the big things was like… For women specifically, it was like solid colored dresses that with arm coverage, knee length, not bodycon, but not like diaphanous and flowy, no ruffles, really like no detailing, maybe a tie neck, maybe, but like not like appliqués or lace trim or puff sleeves or anything like that. And that was really eye-opening for me.

Maggie Greene:

I’m starting to think about this. I feel like there’s a metaphor here. So in a previous episode, it was not the last one we did on dress codes, maybe a couple episodes back, we talked about hard pants, which is a term that’s come out of the pandemic. So if we’re thinking about this, like spectrum of formality, knits to wovens, if there’s a correlation there, like structure, AKA stiffness, You know, is present in a woven or like a bespoke suit, even certain blazers versus a knit, which has more movement and like lays more softly on the body moves with the body. So I’m thinking about like stiffness in terms of corporate culture and just like the, the visual takeaway as you like scan an environment like that. It’s like corporate stuffy, like buttoned up, you know. maybe there is some connection there to like, I don’t know, I mean physical discomfort comes to mind. Like, knits are way more friendly to the body to wear a lot of times than a woven, you know, like all that structure. But yeah, like I’m picturing an infographic, like a scale of casual to formal and like fiber content, you know, shared across that spectrum.

Amanda:

I think you hit on something there that like you can’t be too comfortable to work, which when you say it out loud is incredibly terrible.

Ruby Gertz:

It’s so awful.

Amanda:

It’s so awful, right? But that brings us to probably the most uncomfortable of all the business attire types and that’s business professional. Interesting that none of these other people were professional, right?

Maggie Greene:

I was thinking again about that spectrum of like casual to formal and discomfort and the stiffness piece like Even down to the footwear,like we’ll see flats in more casual environments but like the more formal you go like the higher the heel which equates to Presumably more discomfort as well.

Amanda:

I mean, I will tell you, I, until basically the pandemic, wore high heels to work every day. And sometimes like really wild, like platform high heels that may be like six inches taller. Did that for years. And I will tell you, guess what happened? I got bunions.

And I got, what is that, plantar fasciitis. I don’t know if you’ve ever had that too.

Ruby Gertz:

Oh, yes.

Amanda:

Inflammation of the bottom of your feet basically.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

So. It’s like so silly to me that like to be professional, you have to damage your feet. Like what?

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

But when we talk about the most uncomfortable of it all, it is business professional, which I think that’s so funny. Like all these other business attires were not professional, but now we’re finally there with business professional.

And this is definitely what you think of when you think of lawyers. And… bankers. We’re talking about tidy dresses. This is the word that indeed used tidy, which is such a weird… I don’t even know what a tidy dress is. If either of you know, let me know. Slacks, skirts, slacks again according to… indeed might want to fix this. I’m assuming they probably meant trousers or something. Dark… colored suits and ties. I think the color is like really key.

We talked about this in the last episode. Business professional tops include neat button-down shirts, so I’m guessing not Hawaiian shirts, or blouses with a blazer. Business professional shoes include heels, loafers or flats. You can accessorize with minimal jewelry and belts. allowed to have belts again, that’s great.

Ruby Gertz:

you gotta hold up your pants somehow.

Amanda:

And I mean, this is definitely like, when we think of like business clothes, this is what, I mean, I think this is what the average person pictures.

And I am proud to say I’ve never had a job where I had to dress like this. I, years ago, when Nasty Gal went bankrupt and I didn’t have a job, neither did my friend Kim, we both interviewed. not a lot of great options in LA. We both interviewed with Ross, you know, like Ross Dressed for Less because, and apparently their buyers make a bank. Like they get paid so much more than like I’ve ever made in my career, but they have, they dress like actual business professional and I was having so much anxiety about this. I was like… What if I get called in for an interview? Like, what am I gonna do? I literally don’t have anything. And then what if I get a job and I only have one outfit? Like, what will happen, you know? Like really, you’re fretting about this. The first couple rounds of interviews are really weird and like a video, but like not even in person. They have like a portal and you record yourself answering questions. It’s horrible. And fortunately,I never made it past that. What a relief. Ha ha ha.

Ruby Gertz:

That’s interesting to me too, because if you’ve ever been in a Ross, the clothes available at Ross are definitely not for business professional.

Amanda:

It is interesting when I go to trade shows, like whether it’s like for the job I have right now, it’s more like gift related or apparel in the past, you see all spectrums of buyers there. So I’ve been the one where everybody I’m with is dressed like a wild and hip and trendy or weird, whatever, but you’ll walk right next to someone who is like straight up in like a Navy suit.

It’s like and business casual in between you know lots of lots of people in blouses You know tucked in looking neat, and then you know my team with like holes in the butts of their jeans

And definitely bra straps hanging out But it is interesting like just to be working alongside as a peer with People who have to dress more and in my opinion like it’s so formal you know

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

Have either of you had a job where you had to dress this professional?

Ruby Gertz:

No, I mean, I will say there were times in admissions where we did have to kind of like dress nicer than our average day to day and it was usually like for a very, you know, for a big meeting with like the university president maybe or, you know, sometimes like certain events we would go to. There was like an expectation to dress a little nicer but I mean, kind of similarly to you, Amanda, like I was working for an art school so like… We were a lot looser with our dress code, but

Amanda:

Right.

Ruby Gertz:

I would definitely be at admissions fairs and there would be admissions counselors from Stanford or Harvard or whatever, at a couple booths down, and they would be dressed to the nines because they’re recruiting for law school. But I felt like I had permission to be a little more artsy and funky because I’m recruiting people to come do photography programs and maybe architecture, fashion and stuff. So it was a little… a little looser for us. But yeah, I don’t know what I would do if I had to dress like that formal.

Amanda:

I mean,

Maggie Greene:

I’m trying to think, so like state government, like I said, I worked in several different agencies and offices. This was in the rural South, by the way, I think that’s important for context. So I worked inside of an office of legal services. So like my boss and my coworkers were lawyers, right? Who adhered to that very traditional, down to like pantyhose, which I know we’ll talk about later. very much dark colors, like solid, pretty subdued, like corporate, structured. Um, but we had a business casual or casual, yeah, business casual dress code in the office, um, but for cases like. And we had to go into legislative session or appear in front of a judge or the court or whatever we had to, you know, there was the expectation that we would elevate a bit, um, for that environment, but as you all were sharing about. stories around job interviews. Like I have, I have an example from like the other side of the spectrum. So there’s always this concern like, you know, this isn’t professional enough.

Am I showing up, you know, as professional as I can? Am I going to land the right impression? I, I interviewed for like a big box drugstore retailer, probably 20 years ago. I was kind of fresh out of college and one of the pieces of feedback I received, like I didn’t make it through to the next round, but the supervisor, the hiring manager was like you did great. And one thing that stuck out to me was like, I think you were a bit overdressed, which let me tell you, I remember what I was wearing. It was like a black knit mock neck short sleeve turtleneck. and like plaid trousers and some pointy toed flats. It was like pretty casual. Yeah. But the job, the role itself was like, some of it involved inventory management and stocking. So it was one of those situations like you Ruby, like probably a t-shirt and yoga pants would have been like more appropriate, you know, on the job. This was an interview. Like, I’m not gonna, I don’t know. I’m not gonna show up and. I don’t know, jeans, it just, you know, it wasn’t my style, but

Ruby Gertz:

I have a similar interview story, maybe, when I was actually, I was on the other side of it. I was on a hiring team, and we were looking to hire more people to join our admissions team. And there were two interviews that stuck out. The first one, actually, this one I wasn’t hiring for. This one I recommended a friend to apply for a position at the company I was working for. They didn’t get the job and I heard later through the grapevine, kind of in this very like rude, whispery way, that the reason they hadn’t, that they were otherwise very qualified, that the reason they hadn’t gotten the job was because they showed up to the interview in shorts. And I don’t know if that’s true or not, but I just like, oh man, you know, like that’s a really harsh- criticism, you know, to just to be like, oh, they would have gotten it except for this. It’s like, oh, like, okay. And then another time I was actually on a hiring committee for an admissions job and we had somebody show up in a full suit, like head to toe, like dark navy blue. And the interview like went really well. And as soon as this person left the interview, my boss turned to me and said, She’s hoping to make more money than we can offer her, so we shouldn’t even bother.

Amanda:

Wow.

Ruby Gertz:

Just like purely based on the suit. Like purely based on the suit. She was like, if she has that suit, she wants to make more money than we are gonna pay.

Amanda:

I mean that is wild because often in college, it’s sort of like when you graduate, you need to buy a suit, right?

Ruby Gertz:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

And a lot of my friends’ parents bought them suits as sort of like a graduation gift. Like now you’re going out and you’re gonna get a job, right? So I find that really offensive.

Ruby Gertz:

I thought that was like kind of an egregious assumption that like this person has a lot of money or has an expectation from this job. Like clearly she was just trying to put her best foot forward, you know?

Amanda:

I mean, you may have read this Indeed Guide to Business Attire, but says you should dress up even if the office is casual for the interview. So I…

Ruby Gertz:

Well, apparently shorts is not. It’s way too casual.

Maggie Greene:

Too casual, right?

Amanda:

I mean, I guess to me it’s like which kind of shorts, you know?

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, right? No, I thought that too. I was like, was it shorts or was it like a culotte situation

Amanda:

I have like so many questions. You know, as you were talking, it made me think about a time that I interviewed. It was at Nasty Gal. So the fun thing about, I don’t know, I will just say, I think we all have experienced this in our lives in a variety of different scenarios, that there are so many red flags sometimes that you refuse to acknowledge.

And then later you’re like, oh, those were red flags, weren’t they?

I actually interviewed at Nasty Gal twice in a three month period, and I should not have taken that job, it was horrible. But the first time I interviewed there, it was fine. I went in wearing clothes from Nasty Gal, because that’s what you do when you work in the industry, you wear clothes from the retailer, that’s the dress code.

And I remember specifically that I was wearing like this black jumpsuit, and I had on a bolo tie, and I had this like faux fur coat. and really huge platform, heeled shoes. And that was not how I dressed to work at ModCloth, where I dressed in ModCloth clothes. And the interview was like fine, although like to be honest, the people who interviewed me I found to be very unpleasant. And then no one ever responded to my emails ever again. They completely ghosted me. And a couple of months later, my friend Sherry got hired there. And you know, they were looking for someone to manage the apparel team. And she said, Well, you interviewed my friend Amanda, but then you ghosted her. She’s probably the most experienced person in LA right now. You should hire her. And they were like, oh, we did interview her? And then the other person was like, oh yeah, she’s the one who looked just like she worked at ModCloth. And she was wearing ModCloth clothes when she came in, and Sherry was like, I know that’s not true, because I saw what she wore that day. So that’s not even a real excuse. And so then they brought me in for another interview and I should have been like, fuck you. But I was like, oh, I wanna go work with my best friend.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, that’s such a crazy assumption too, like that they wouldn’t even recognize their own clothes and they would just assume you were wearing clothes from your former employer.

Amanda:

I mean, I think that they just like, they saw Modcloth on my resume and like in their mind, that’s just like who I was, which also just shows how like silly they were.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

But I’m not an amateur. I wouldn’t wear Modcloth clothes to go to a Nasty Gal interview. It’s like a very different aesthetic. It’s like wearing business casual to go to like a business professional environment. I mean, I didn’t know that now, but I’m gonna use that analogy all the time.

So, you know, interestingly, like Indeed has a lot of tips for helping people get dressed for their various jobs. And something that I really noticed is like going back to what Ruby said in the last episode about status, power, sex as gender for our purposes and personality, you start to see a lot of this, all these underlying structures within the workplace that sort of play out via clothing. For example, Here’s, this is from Indeed. If you work in an office, pay close attention to the people, the way people dress. While the office may be casual, you might notice that people in leadership positions dress slightly more formally. You may choose to dress similarly to the people who hold the position you would like to reach. I, I mean, I will tell you that describes my current job right there, whereas like people who are in like lower level positions within the office, we’ll come to work in leggings maybe, right? Or a Hawaiian shirt. But people on the higher level, like in the executive meetings, I would say are more like somewhere between smart casual, business casual. Now no one’s wearing a suit, right? But like they’re in, almost there.

And this whole idea of like dress for the job you want, I’m so tired of hearing that. That’s what this is.

Maggie Greene:

I think there’s variation depending on what industry you’re in and there’s some regionality involved as well. I’m thinking about a client right now who has the opposite problem. She’s on a mission to leadership and owning her own business one day and managing a team and all of these things. Her direct supervisor who presumably has that. like high highest most leadership position is like more apt to dress casually. And she’s like, I don’t want to overshadow or like seal her thunder. Like she’s used a few different phrases to like, you know, I don’t, I don’t want to show up my boss, but also like, I want everyone else who is there to know what I’m about and like, I’m on a mission. So it’s, it’s interesting. Um, I think, yeah, she’s in the Midwest. And I think. Pacific Northwest, like we see, of course Microsoft is headquartered here, like their leadership team, often you’ll see a suit, but it’s paired with like a graphic t-shirt and maybe clean, bright, shiny, clean lifestyle sneakers, like elements from every piece, every variation of dress code. and one. It’s weird. So maybe tech is an outlier.

Amanda:

or like, you know, advertising, like more creative professions. I do think the fact that lifestyle sneakers are expensive and there are brands whose entire brand is to, you know, create more expensive lifestyle sneakers, like, you know, like there’s that one brand, Golden Goose, for example. I think that the era of really expensive, like three, four, $500 lifestyle sneakers has made them more acceptable. for higher level employees. I think it’s just another way to show your status. And when you really think about, no matter what your company’s dress code is, you do see these subtle shifts as people move up the ranks and you really see the, you get a clear visual guide to the hierarchy within that office by looking at how people are dressed. You can tell who has the higher level roles, even if it’s just because their shirt is more expensive.

Ruby Gertz:

I think there’s also like sometimes maybe in more artsy or like casual work environments like tech. I’m thinking of my spouse’s former employer was a tech company and the owner of their company would like frequently show up to work in like basketball shorts and like a quarter zip like fleece.

Amanda:

Oh, geez.

Maggie Greene:

Whoa.

Ruby Gertz:

Which is like yeah. Which is like. so funny because it’s also like it’s like yeah he’s the owner of the company it’s like he can kind of do whatever he wants but like

Amanda:

Right.

Ruby Gertz:

I bet if other people were to follow his lead and like show up in basketball shorts like they might get some side eye.

it’s almost like a power move of just like well what are you gonna do like I can do whatever I want.

Maggie Greene:

He wouldn’t do that in front of investors if there were like a big all-hands meeting or something,

Ruby Gertz:

I don’t know. Maybe not. And maybe that’s like a power thing, right? Like maybe when he’s in a position of being superior to everybody else, it’s like fine to dress down. But as soon as you’re in a room with people who are your peers, or maybe you’re even, you know, fancy wealthy people that you’re trying to impress, maybe pull out all the stops. But I don’t know. Maybe he did show up to board meetings in cargo shorts or basketball shorts.

I mean, that would be a power move if he did.

Amanda:

Yeah, it would. Well, people would be like, he’s a disruptor.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, exactly right. I also think that men in power get a lot more passes than women in power.

Amanda:

Um, yeah. For sure.

Ruby Gertz:

I think if a female CEO were to do that, I think there would be a lot more scrutiny. I mean, there’s already more scrutiny of women in the workplace and anyone who’s not a cis man in the workplace in general.

Amanda:

Definitely, definitely. And then the higher up the ladder you are, I mean, no one has been more acutely aware of the power gap in corporate infrastructures than I have been recently. So we’re just like, there’s a totally different code of contact for people at the top versus everyone else in terms of

like how they can treat other people. And unprofessional, right? Speaking of professional, here’s some more advice from Indeed. Addressing appropriately, there we’ve got that word appropriate, right, can help you be seen as a professional employee who cares about your success in the role. My question is why wouldn’t the quality of one’s work or one’s work ethic be the true indicator of a so-called professional employee? Why is it this appropriate clothing?

Ruby Gertz:

because those are harder to measure, Amanda.

Amanda:

Right,

Ruby Gertz:

We’re lazy.

Amanda:

this is tough, right? Like this is like reading this, I was like, oh man, we know that Indeed is a total narc, you know?

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

Here’s another one. If you’re going to a business meeting, ask your colleagues who may know or have met with the same person about how their offices operate and how you can appear respectful and professional during your meeting with them. So I think… Once again, we get professional here, but respectful. And this respect, polite, these were words that I saw coming up time and time again in terms of dress code. This line of thinking implies that there’s only one, that you are only worthy of respect or being taken seriously based on what you’re wearing. Once again, reinforcing this hierarchy within the office. That what you wear yourself would be a show of respect to someone else, I think is very interesting. This idea of it being more polite to wear this than that is also interesting because it comes back to like someone else’s feelings about you, ultimately.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

No matter, you know, we talked about the discomfort meter going up, right, as your work dress code gets more intense. It’s sort of like. your discomfort is more important than the way someone else feels about your outfit is way more important than your discomfort. And I think, it’s dark, it’s like work, work.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, and I think it plays into that power aspect as well, right? Because it’s almost like through your sartorial choices, you are conveying an acceptance of this hierarchy of power, right? You’re almost showing, I will adhere to this code. You are setting this code and I am respecting it and I am subordinate to you and you’re accepting that status.

And that like lower sense of power by like accepting those rules.

Maggie Greene:

Like respect equals compliance equals subservience,

Ruby Gertz:

Totally.

Maggie Greene:

submission.

Amanda:

So I was telling you both a story before we started recording about something that I witnessed at work where the owner of the company came over and was yelling at us and then yelled at my coworker who was eating lunch at the time for eating while he was talking to her. Like she was supposed to put her food away while he yelled at her. And she said, like later, obviously she did not say this at the time. She said, I can’t believe he said that to me. because there have been so many times where we have been in a meeting with him where he’s walked away to go in the kitchen to get food and then come back and like literally like made a sandwich or something in the middle of the meeting while you were talking. And I was like, yeah, I mean, this is really interesting, right, because a lot of this, what’s professional, what’s acceptable, right, what’s polite, depends on your level in the company. It’s all, once again, it goes back to power structures and what is professional. for us versus them is really related to what your role is within that company. Like if I came into work and slammed a door and started screaming at someone, I would probably get in trouble. But if the CEO does that, well, that’s okay, they’re the CEO and they can come in basketball shorts too, but I probably can’t.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

And so it just. I mean, honestly, I think we’re all saying that like, everyone should just quit their jobs. Is that what we’re saying here? I don’t know. No, but it just really points to, you know, these power structures that exist between workplaces. And, you know, it’s interesting. I remember like six months ago, maybe a little bit longer saying to my husband, I said, you know, after only working for myself from 2020 until late 2021, I forgot about the power structures that exist in a lot of corporate environments. where you have to let someone be mean to you or cut you off or talk down to you or just fundamentally talk over you and you have to accept it with a smile because of the power structures that are in place. And that I’d kind of forgotten about that after close to two years of just hanging around Dustin all the time and no one else, you know?

Ruby Gertz:

Oh my gosh.

Amanda:

And I was like, it’s painful when you’ve been out of it and go back into it, you’re like, this sucks. Why is this okay?

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

And I think a lot of dress code really ties back to that as well. So I found a really great 2015 piece called, and watch, I could literally read this whole thing to you all, but it would be annoying, so you should read it. It’s gonna be linked in the show notes. It’s called You Call It Professionalism, I Call It Oppression in a Three-Piece Suit by Carmen Rios. In my opinion, it is one of the best things that has been on the internet about dress codes, because I’ve read an awful lot. Sorry, indeed. And I have a little bit of a long passage that I’m going to read here and I apologize, but I do feel empowered to do it because I’ve already gotten Ruby to agree to read some of the messages from listeners, so I’ll have to do less reading this week. Dress codes make room to turn a lot of isms into policies, especially since typical standards of professional dress are at the core racist, sexist, classist, and xenophobic. For workers who come from a non-Western background, for example, workplace dress codes can invisibilize them. What folks see as professional garb rarely encompasses non-Western dress. For Rastafarian or Muslim employees, dressing or appearing in line with your faith becomes a vulnerability. Employers might be critical of dreadlocks or religious accessories or symbols, which puts those particular non-white workers in a disadvantaged position. to move ahead in their professional lives. Women of color, meanwhile, still face objections to their own natural hair in the workplace. It can also be burdensome to subscribe to a dress code when it means subscribing to a gender binary that doesn’t speak to your experiences. More femme-identified men might have trouble striking a balance between what’s professional and what feels right, and androgynous or genderqueer folk might be forced to dress in a more binary and consequently oppressive way. women face a unique conundrum, namely that they can’t be seen as too feminine or too masculine and that different occasions call for different apparel. So the person who wrote this works in DC and so I just wanted to jump in and say that as I continue. I remember being told once that I should wear pants not a skirt to the hill, meaning Capitol Hill, as if wearing a dress or skirt somehow undermined me as a worker in a historically male institution. For some women, dressing in traditional male garb helps them to gain power, but in some workplaces, it works to their detriment because their colleagues find it inappropriate. On the flip side, women might be received more warmly clothed in dresses and soft blouses, but also be dismissed as flitty, unserious, and unintelligent. For workers without money, dressing professionally can actually be an impossible request. When workers at all levels are expected to dress formally, the workers bringing in the least income must choose between saving up or dressing up. And often the cost of going without the right shoes, shirts or dresses can cost them promotions and other opportunities in their career. Which really is exactly what Indeed was telling us without telling us, right? That you have to dress for the job you want. and who cares about your credit card debt?

Ruby Gertz:

Holy.

Amanda:

So thoughts, feelings here.

Maggie Greene:

the line about the workers that bring in the least income have to choose between saving up or dressing up was pretty compelling, I thought. There is some more insight that I’ll share in terms of how this plays out in real life examples. I have a lot of client stories to share. But yeah, how many employees are faced with that same decision? And maybe it’s not just a financial burden. In this case, You were talking about genderqueer folks or non-binary folks, like they have to pick a lane, neither of which feels authentic to them, which is, I mean, it’s harmful. It can cause mental health issues and anguish and just, you know, like an overall distraction from their job, which is upsetting.

Amanda:

It is, and something we’ve touched on a few times, like a word that has come up, is that a lot of this almost begins to feel like a costume.

Ruby Gertz:

Uh-huh.

Amanda:

That we are being asked to wear a costume that was dictated by someone else, possibly a bunch of rich dudes back in like, what was that, the 1700s, Ruby? The great masculine denunciation,

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah,

Amanda:

right? Like,

Ruby Gertz:

yeah, 1700s

Amanda:

right? And it’s just

Ruby Gertz:

enlightenment.

Amanda:

like stuck, right? Like it’s still going on. And you know, the reality is like, We are pushed into this situation depending on where you work and what the dress code is that you have to have two wardrobes. You have to have what you

Ruby Gertz:

Yes.

Amanda:

wear to work and what you wear outside of work. And this has made a lot of retailers a lot of money selling both of those, you know? And it just seems so silly that, I mean, you know, a trope that you would see in women’s magazines in like the 80s and 90s was this idea of desk to dinner. So like. how you could take your work clothes and transform them into evening clothes. And I actually had a Barbie as a child that did that. She had like a pink business suit on, but you could take off her skirt and blazer and turn it inside out and they were like holographic.

Ruby Gertz:

Oh my gosh.

Amanda:

Something like that. If anybody’s listening and knows of which I speak, but like this idea that like your work clothes you can’t even wear after work is wild.

Ruby Gertz:

I feel like that was also a really popular fashion prompt in early aughts fashion school was like day to night.

Maggie Greene:

Yes!

Amanda:

Yeah.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, transformation garments with this idea, which is so funny because I feel like I’m that age now where like, yeah, when you were talking about an adulthood having control of your life, I think also I had this concept when I was a teenager or something that when you’re an adult you just like… go to work and you just like part, you put on like a sparkly tank top and like go dancing after or something,

Maggie Greene:

Right?

Ruby Gertz:

right? I’m like, I never do that. Like I come straight home, I like take a shower, eat dinner, watch TV and go to bed.

Amanda:

I know, I’m like, who are these people who do stuff after work? But I definitely remember that time in my life, you know?

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, it was brief. I feel like it was brief for me in the long run, but yeah.

Amanda:

Yeah, I mean, but there has always been this idea that, like, I mean, obviously people don’t adhere to it as much now because we live very different lives than people did 30 years ago, but that you would have one outfit for work, and then if you went out to dinner or drinks or something else afterwards, you would change in between. And of course, those clothes would be totally different than what you would wear on the weekend.

Ruby Gertz:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

Right, and you wouldn’t wear any of those clothes that I just mentioned to a party. That’s a whole other set of clothes.

Ruby Gertz:

Yep. Yeah.

Amanda:

And so it’s just like, you have to buy more and more. And of course you need shoes and undergarments and all these other things that go with all of those different outfits. And so for the most part, I mean, we know people over consume clothing right now, but it’s not because they have all of these like specific day-to-day changes that they have to make. But… Regardless, you would think, okay, well we have changed so much about how we live. Even, I had this realization the other day that Dustin and I exclusively eat dinner on the couch, which is something people wouldn’t have done 40 or 50 years ago. And I think during the pandemic, it became even more normal to just eat on the couch. We’ve made all these other changes in terms of how we live our lives, but yet we’re still sort of ascribing to these dress codes that feel kind of old. and rooted in just a different time. And they really are a financial burden. Even if you were saying, okay, I’m gonna go buy all of my work clothes in that one section at Target that has workish clothes, right? Or I’m gonna do it at H&M, it’s still expensive. And a lot of those clothes are gonna need to be dry cleaned or hand washed and line dried, so there’s a lot of work or money involved there and not fast turnaround in terms of laundry. And so you might need to buy more. And it’s just such a burden. I mean, listen, I was genuinely freaking out that I might get a job at Ross Dress for Less and need to go buy like five suits. I was like, how? I’ll have to get like a new credit card, you know? Ha ha ha.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, and for some jobs too, it’s like you can’t get away with getting the professional stuff at like Target. Like people might, if you’re in certain fields, like people will know and they will notice and like you have to get like an Armani suit or like something, you know, that’s like a recognizable brand or like of a certain quality. Sometimes that’s non-negotiable. Like if you, I don’t know, if you were to work at like I’m thinking of like very high-end retailers like, let’s say like Tiffany’s or something. Like you probably can’t show up in like a Ross dress for less suit.

Maggie Greene:

Mm.

Amanda:

I don’t know if they have

Ruby Gertz:

To

Amanda:

them

Ruby Gertz:

a customer

Amanda:

there, but yeah,

Ruby Gertz:

facing

Amanda:

definitely.

Ruby Gertz:

shop. Yeah.

Amanda:

I mean, I think that’s a really good call out as well. And so this idea of like what’s professional is kind of a moving target based on who, where you work and who made the rules and who you are individually.

Maggie Greene:

I think you hit on something really profound and important here too, Amanda, which is like the backbone of this is capitalism and all of its shortcomings. Like the idea that we have to have different clothing for every context in which we show up is sounds to me like a really smart, just torture that word that we’ve seen earlier today heard earlier. a smart marketing ploy to get people to buy more shit.

Amanda:

Oh, totally, right? I mean, I think, like, based on how dynamic, if you will, the policies around professionalism are in terms of dress, it could mean that, like, every job you have, you have to buy a completely different wardrobe, right? And so, you know, people change jobs more often than they did in, say, our parents’ generation. which I think is a good thing, but it could mean a reboot of your wardrobe every time you shift jobs. Honestly, it has meant that for me. And that’s another thing that keeps you shopping, right? Keeps the capitalist wheel turning. And yet it’s all so subjective. You know, it’s so interesting that we all sign on for this. I mean, kind of because we have no choice.

Maggie Greene:

One other thing I want to touch on, I know we have a lot to cover, but the line about dressing in line with your faith, making you vulnerable and how dress codes that we’re seeing in professional quote unquote environments doesn’t really create any space for non-Western influences and beliefs. I find that extremely ironic considering all of the discussion we’ve had about modesty. and where that comes from, like, it’s all so, like, waspy, you know, like very white, very Western, very Christian too,

Ruby Gertz:

Right? Like there’s not roo for people of like Muslim or Hindu or Jewish faith.

Amanda:

Yeah, it’s very colonial. I think a great example is in Japan, when you go get on the subway at rush hour, it is full of men all wearing the same exact suit. It’s always like a gray or navy suit with a tie, a white shirt, same shoes. Everybody has the same haircut. And it’ll just be like a hundred guys in the car. It’s like their uniform. And… It’s very Western, right? It’s very, I mean, it’s coming straight out of like European influences. Yet Japan’s on the other side of the world. But that’s the uniform for being professional at work there. And that it’s even more prescribed than it is here where everybody’s literally wearing the same exact suit. It’s wild. Like if you were with someone and lost them, you might… It might take you a really long time to locate them

because they would just be lost in this crowd. It’s so interesting. And,

you know, once again, we’re looking at like the other side of the planet. This idea of professionalism has made its way there.

Maggie Greene:

Total homogeneity, right?

Amanda:

Yeah.

Maggie Greene:

Like the ultimate in conformity.

Amanda:

Definitely, oh my gosh, yeah, conformity, for sure. So speaking of conformity, you know, I think we’ve talked a lot about what is professional and we really haven’t really like solidified on like, this is the definite definition of what is professional to wear. But I do think we have an idea of what is often considered unprofessional, right? Like I will just say, I am a very unprofessional looking person. I have very long hair. I wear it down. I wear a lot of bold prints and ruffles. I wear weird shoes. I wear white eyeliner. You know, I’m breaking, I don’t wear a belt, but I guess I would be allowed to. I’m definitely breaking all of the rules of all of the dress codes we’ve just discussed. And yeah, like, oh, and I’m covered with tattoos. So there’s that too. But I’m sure, Maggie, I mean, you yourself has… have dealt with these ideas of being unprofessional or professional both like on your own but also with your clients.

Maggie Greene:

Oh yeah, absolutely. Um, so one of the things that comes to mind when I think about unprofessional is I want to introduce a little bit of hope and positivity the folks who are listening to you all we’ve, we’ve gotten, gotten kind of dark and deep today, but

Amanda:

I guess it turns out dress codes are like really dark.

Maggie Greene:

So there, there are a number of campaigns circulating the globe about like, dismantling the myth around professionalism and just like, totally breaking apart that standard. I don’t know who had the first campaign, but it’s like, it’s a side by side sort of image where you see a person covered in tattoos, piercings, maybe they have funky colored hair on one side, all of those things are visible and on the other side you see them buttoned up with their white coat, you know, maybe they’re a doctor. It’s like this idea that, you know, in order to be trusted to offer life-saving care or whatever, you have to fit this certain archetype, obviously that’s not true, right? I know a lot of amazing doctors, lawyers, people on Wall Street who, like you, Amanda, are covered in tattoos. They might even like white eyeliner and like monkey shoes every once in a while.

Amanda:

Yeah

Maggie Greene:

The idea that professionalism has anything to do with what you’re wearing, I think, is total bullshit. I feel like all of us can probably agree that that’s the case.

There are, you know, I mentioned industries and regionality. Like those… things are important considerations. You’re gonna see variation across different spaces, but like the most strict and stringent in terms of dress code, like doctors come to mind, lawyers, anyone who works in money, like financial managers, politicians, even teachers to a degree as like public servants. Yeah, the idea is they can’t. They can’t be trusted if they have funky colored hair or you know those kinds of things make them unprofessional. It’s just not true Anyone who has ever Spent any time in a sally beauty supply store or who works there I want to apologize in advance because this may be triggering but when we’re talking about unprofessional that idea there was a big campaign associated with I think a line of products or something from Sally that featured a queer creator, I believe, a musician and vocalist who sang a song called Colored Hair and the hook, like the chorus of the song was, having colored hair doesn’t make you unprofessional. The reason why I said this may be triggering, I have since found out, this was a few years ago, I’ve since found out they played that song on loop. in stores like all the time. So I am sorry to anyone that brings up.

Amanda:

Okay, when you were saying it, I did feel like I knew that song because I had definitely spent some time at Sally.

Uh, so maybe that’s why I was familiar.

Maggie Greene:

Um, I think Amanda, you mentioned caught like tie-collared blouses when we were talking about like, um, women or feminine presenting folks, like showing up in these more powerful positions and leadership roles. I discovered and developed an affinity for that exact style of garment in pursuit of finding creative and fun ways to conceal my tattoos.

Um, I- also have a lot of them, several of which are now more visible than in past years. Like I told myself for the longest time, I wasn’t going to go past like my, like cap sleeve length, you know, just the top of my shoulders. I’m like, fuck that. I’m in Seattle now. I have my own business. I’m going to go full on sleeve probably on both

Maggie Greene:

at some point, but I have, I was always. I am still to a degree, there’s like some residual, shame is the first word that comes to mind, just like consciousness and awareness of the tattoo I have across my chest. It definitely draws attention if it’s visible, if I’m in a, especially if I’m in a professional setting. And really, especially when I was working in like those business professional environments, like state government. Even though I was never reprimanded or directly called out for it, there were unspoken reactions that made me even more sensitive about it. When I went for job interviews, I always went for something with a high neck to make sure that wasn’t even an issue. I love, love a tie collar blouse. Like I said, through… trying to figure out how to cover up my tattoo, I discovered like, hey, this is something that I actually love, with or without the tattoo. Yeah, I got really frustrated because, again, I mentioned this, right? I’d make quite an effort to show up as professional and I look around at my colleagues and I’m like, sweatpants and tank tops and flip flops. Let me think. Okay, we were talking about law. In terms of like keeping pace with like fashion changes and even just like social conventions. Law is the slowest moving, right? They are like the oldest of the outdated antiquated rules. I have a friend right now who works in government that operates in that same space and she happens to have like crazy rainbow hair. which is amazing, like half her head is shaved, it’s really vibrant and dramatic. So that’s fine when she’s like inside the main agency, but when she has to make court appearances, instead of changing her actual hair, she has like a wig collection

Amanda:

Wow.

Maggie Greene:

of like

Ruby Gertz:

Oh, all right.

Maggie Greene:

all different, quote unquote natural colors and textures to cover it up. when she has to show up for court, which is pretty cool, but we’re also talking about financial barriers. She’s made a substantial investment to adhere and conform to these standards after paying what I can only imagine is hundreds of dollars to maintain that amazing hair color, right?

Amanda:

Yeah, wow, and she’s probably hot. Cause wigs are hot. I mean, they are hot looking, but also like hot temperature.

Maggie Greene:

Temperature, yes, yes.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah, wow. I mean, yeah, that’s a real devotion to both professionalism and having cool hair. You know, another thing that, I don’t wanna get too deep into you, but that does come up as a lot of. as a part of a lot of dress codes that I also think can be kind of, I don’t know, sometimes it’s subjective, but often more than anything it’s hurtful, and I think it can be classist as well, are hygiene codes. I know, Maggie, you have some stories about that. You all already in the last episode heard about my armpit hair. This is one that I, like, for lack of a better adjective, it sucks.

Maggie Greene:

So I want to acknowledge the armpit hair comment and say like, I am team armpit hair as well. It’s been just in the last couple of years that I’ve fully embraced that and owned it and like, I don’t give a fuck. But I also have the privilege of not answering to someone who has a dress code, I don’t report to a company or you know, a supervisor anymore. So all of that to say, body hair as a concept comes up a lot in client conversations.

There’s definitely an expectation from media and just general Western standards of beauty that for women and feminine presenting folks, that’s unacceptable, which I don’t understand. But so that’s on armpit hair. I just want you to know, I’m with you on that. Uh, body odor is another thing that comes to mind. I had a friend who worked at a small town bank. They had a really, really strict dress code, pantyhose, like nylons were specified.

Amanda:

Ugh.

Maggie Greene:

That gives you an any idea of like how, how strict it was. Um, but my friend was taken aside by I think initially a coworker as like a friendly like, hey, heads up, this is kind of an issue or it could become an issue, but was later ultimately reprimanded by a supervisor. Like there had been complaints that they had an evident body odor, whatever that means.

So yeah, I mean, I don’t remember the exact like, I feel like they transferred them to a different area. Like they were definitely customer facing right at the front, like a teller position. Yeah, I wanna say maybe they gave them an ultimatum. It was like, this has gotta be addressed or we’re gonna like put you in the basement kind of thing. Like with the scanner, I don’t know, but there was definitely a verbal reprimand and I will never forget that conversation. Like they were… devastated. I mean, completely humiliated and tight, you know, caught off guard. Yeah, so that’s one thing that comes to mind. The…

Ruby Gertz:

Iit just seems really mean. It just seems like really mean to reprimand somebody for something like that. Cause it’s like, you really don’t know what that person, what that person’s story is, right? Like it could be something that’s completely outside of their control. Like sometimes people have to like take certain medication that could like cause body odor or maybe they’re like, yeah, like suffering from some illness or something, you know, like there’s just so much like.

hormonal stuff, it could be so much stuff there, I think, that is already so kind of like… shameful and hard to deal with, and then to be told on top of that other people are noticing this and have a problem with it is like…It just strikes me as cruel.

Maggie Greene:

as like corporate sanctioned bullying.

Amanda:

I mean, how humiliating. How, like, and then you, you know, you probably have no choice but to come back there again the next day, and it does. It feels like bullying. Like, it doesn’t have to be like a work conversation. It’s really, really fucked up. I have had to, at one of my jobs, I was forced by the district manager to have a conversation with someone who worked for me about their body odor, and I just like. I wished I would die while we were doing it.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, it’s hard to even tell someone you love. Like, I don’t know, sometimes I feel like I want to like tell a family member, like someone I’m very close to and like love dearly, like, hey, like, you know, like this is kind of getting a little, are getting a little pungent. It’s like hard, you know, it’s like someone you love, someone you don’t know at all or like have a relationship with outside of work. Like that’s such a tough thing to have to confront.

Amanda:

Yeah, it’s terrible. But then also the companies will have policies about like requiring people to wear makeup, right, or groom their hair a certain way. And these things also just I mean, there’s like 100 things under the covers there. They’re all terrible. But it feels like such an invasion of someone’s bodily autonomy to say like, hey, you need to wear mascara or you. need to change your shampoo or you have to stop using natural deodorant or I need you to straighten your hair or blow it out or something like that, you know?

Maggie Greene:

It’s totally body policing.

Amanda:

Yeah.

Maggie Greene:

Yes, like you mentioned the makeup thing. I have a friend who experienced exactly that. Like she had this really like super efficient morning routine that included showering and getting to the office while her hair was still wet. For some reason, the wet hair was an issue. While they were at it, it was like, we strongly encourage this. They couldn’t rec- require it explicitly, but they’re like, hey, you know, if, if you want to advance in this position, if you care about your workplace and how you present, like, we are going to encourage you to dry your hair, but also while you’re at it, because you also wear makeup. Like, how is how does that have anything to do with her ability to perform in her role? I don’t understand.

Ruby Gertz:

So there’s, that makes me think of, in the Dress Codes book that I read, I think we talked a little bit about Title IX in the last episode. But something we didn’t touch on that’s also pretty interesting is Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, which prohibits sex discrimination in employment. And so that was interesting because the book goes through a couple different, like, notable cases that were… brought to court, like as potential violations of Title VII. And it’s kind of a huge bummer because pretty much the courts ruled that like it’s actually totally fine for employers to have like different dress codes for men and women, like along these gender binaries. But it’s some of the some of them are like that where there was like one case, let’s see, it’s a Darlene Jesperson was a bartender at Harrah’s, so like a casino. And they basically were telling her like she had to wear makeup for work and she was like, I’m not going to like that has nothing to do with my work. And they basically were able to get around it by saying like, oh, you know, we have like an equivalent dress code for our male employees, but it’s not equivalent because it’s like, but it’s like, oh, makeup is like expected. It’s very, it’s very shitty and it’s very binary. And even though technically sex discrimination is prohibited, like companies find all this way, all these ways to get around it. Another thing that I thought was interesting along those lines, I think they were talking about Hooters and how they only hire like women who look a certain way to work at Hooters. And the way that a lot of these places are able to like get around that is like you’re not just being hired as like a server, you’re being hired as like a server slash performer. So you’re like technically kind of like auditioning for this role or like it kind of allows them by like reclassifying the positions. Yeah, it like allows them to essentially like justify policing your appearance because it’s like part of their business model or like part of their like client experience or something, which is really fucked up when you when you think

Amanda:

Yeah,

Ruby Gertz:

about

Amanda:

yeah.

Ruby Gertz:

it.

Amanda:

Well, that’s a great transition to another thing that often comes up relating to hygiene and dress codes that I definitely don’t like hearing about, which is undergarments. And specifically,

Ruby Gertz:

Oh.

Amanda:

it always comes back to the bra, right?

Ruby Gertz:

Okay…

Amanda:

I know Maggie, you have a little anecdote there.

Maggie Greene:

Yeah, so first of all, I know you mentioned this earlier in the conversation, Amanda, we had a listener

Amanda:

Ugh.

Maggie Greene:

weigh in on Instagram today about their experience growing up in a Catholic school environment where uniforms were required. On top of the uniform requirement was specific requirements around undergarments, like bras specifically, of course, like you said. they could only wear white or a quote unquote skin color, which is interesting because

there’s a spectrum of skin tones that they share that, like their teacher would do these dress code checks to the point where they would be asking these young women, young girls to open their blouses and reveal their bra strap to ensure that they were in compliance, which is a whole other level of fucked up. We’re talking about minors, children…

Ruby Gertz:

So creepy! Yeah.

Maggie Greene:

Really imbalanced power dynamic there. But from my personal experience, this really caught me off guard. And I’ll preface this by saying I’ve not had any interactions with this person since. Make of that what you will.

Amanda:

Oh, I’m making something, yeah.

Maggie Greene:

We had a networking conversation with this woman who is a doctor, has a PhD, not a medical doctor, but I mention that because I think there definitely is some element of privilege. Her education level is part of that. Based on those facts, I might have even had some bias and assumptions about what this person might have to say and insights they might have to share. So we’re talking about style, we’re talking about personal branding as normally I do with a network and conversation, just meeting this person for the first time. She and a team, I guess, had been tasked with a similar job to you, Ruby, is like overhauling their company dress code. How do they make these changes and kind of make sure that it covers everyone? And she was telling me… not what she actually said to this person, but like her inner dialogue as she was having a conversation with a person that she had observed not wearing any supportive undergarments. So in her mind, this was an issue. This person is not wearing a bra and should be wearing a bra. I don’t know exactly what she said to the person, but what she said to me was, in her mind, she was thinking like, you probably would feel better if you wore a bra. And like, I mean, I don’t know the person that she was talking about, I don’t know their gender, identity, or anything like that. What I do know is what it feels like to wear a fucking bra. And the idea that I might feel better with one versus without one was preposterous for starters.

Amanda:

Yes.

Maggie Greene:

But like, that this third party could make a judgment call on what… another person deems comfortable or uncomfortable for their own physical body, I mean, was stunning. I didn’t have anything to say to that. It was just like jaw drop. Wow.

Amanda:

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think there’s like bras, bra straps came up so many times today in the Instagram comments that clearly bras, they’re way too much of a part of dress codes and this idea of professionalism around like whether or not you choose to wear them, the color you choose to wear, the kind of bra you choose to wear. I’m sure if you wore A push-up bra to work, someone would have a problem with that. I’m not even gonna get into the birthday candle story that we heard on Instagram today from a listener. I’ll just urge you to go read the post. There’s a lot of policing of breast ownership.

And I just, I mean, it goes back to control, right? And people’s own biases around that.

Ruby Gertz:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

So I thought we could, this is a great transition into talking about some of our stories from listeners. And the first one is specifically about how women are, I don’t know, expected to dress within business and from someone who actually began their career in the 80s. So Ruby, you’re gonna read Pat’s story. So Pat wrote to us about corporate dress codes and I loved this message. It was so evocative of a time.

Ruby Gertz:

Alright. I graduated from college and entered the corporate world as a computer programmer in 1985. I worked in a somewhat small town, so dress codes were not as strict as in big cities. Most offices had dress codes for all workers. I don’t remember slacks being completely forbidden at my jobs, but it was implied I had to wear a skirt or dress to be taken seriously. I had one headhunter complain that the dress I had on was too feminine. Wearing florals and lace was not professional. The message was very clearly, dress feminine, but not too feminine. In bigger corporations, in bigger cities, a suit was expected. The most stringent dress codes required men to wear a dark suit, white long-sleeved shirt, tie, and black shoes. For women, the dress code was a skirted suit, blouse that covered the collarbones, pantyhose, and closed-toed pumps. The time of year did not change what was worn. If a dress or skirt was not lined, we needed a flip. Even with a lined skirt, I normally wore a camisole under my blouse. No one was to be able to see any outline of your bra. Keep in mind that as a programmer, I never dealt with external customers. I was only seen by other employees. A big tech company in the eighties was EDS owned by Ross Perot. He once got a lot of votes as a third party candidate for president. Rumors in the computer world was their dress code rivaled that of IBM and the employee orientation included hours of explaining how to dress properly for work. Those instructions included the proper undergarments a woman should wear. One place I worked had a seminar on dress for success. It was based on a book by the same name that came out in 1975 with a version for women released in 1977. Watch the movie Working Girl from 1988 to see how important the power suit was at the time. In 1990, I moved to Atlanta, Georgia to work for a major telecommunications company. There was no written dress code saying I could not wear slacks, but it was frowned upon. Part of the annual review documentation included if you dressed professionally. One of my female coworkers would make snide remarks when I wore slacks. She also made sure to tell me how she had enough suits to not repeat wearing one in a two week period. She was my peer, not my supervisor. As far as the economic impact, suits required dry cleaning and pantyhose expenses could add up. Retirement advice at the time would point out how much money you would be saving on clothing once you retired. Another problem was the shoes women had to wear. It was frowned upon to wear flats. When I was 31 years old, I ended up with a podiatrist because of the problems my shoes were causing. I wasn’t wearing high heels, just basic pumps with maybe one and a half inch heel. Now, almost 30 years later, I had to have surgery on a pinched nerve in my foot that started back then. Other women have horror stories of foot damage from the heels worn back in the day. Women in big cities who commuted via subway and bus were known to wear sneakers while commuting and carry their dress shoes with them. The corporation I currently work for doesn’t have strict written dress codes, but there are still implied standards, especially the higher up you go on the ladder. I’m glad I work from home and can wear what I want.

Amanda:

Made me really glad that I was not an adult in the 80s. This sounds terrible.

Ruby Gertz:

Totally. Especially the part about the shoes and

Amanda:

Yeah.

Ruby Gertz:

the foot damage and having to get surgery later. Especially when you think about the expense of that. Hopefully you have health insurance that can cover that surgery, right?

Amanda:

Yeah, right, right? I mean, I think this is very true. So much of the burden of these dress codes, it goes beyond even financial, but it can affect your health. Someone today on Instagram was talking about how they actually, they developed a skin condition from wearing pantyhose every day to school.

Ruby Gertz:

They’re like, they don’t breathe. They’re like, nylon or polyester. Like it’s not a nice fabric to have rubbing tightly against your skin.

Amanda:

no. I mean, this was interesting to me in many ways because some parts of this have changed, certainly with time, but not for everyone who works everywhere. It does seem as though pantyhose has fallen out of favor. Like, I think I remember being a small child and going to even like Burlington Coat Factory with my grandma and there’d be aisles of pantyhose. And now you go into even Macy’s and it’s a much smaller section, right? But. like other parts of this still exist. And as we were reading all of the Indeed stuff, there is still this gender binary within work dress codes. Right? Like even though Indeed was saying dresses or slacks or pantyhose or skirts or whatever, like it was very much like very clearly like, this is for men and this is for women. And ultimately, in addition to, this really just hurts everybody along the entire gender spectrum. because very few people can actually dress in the way that makes them feel their best.

Ruby Gertz:

Totally, totally. And I think when we were talking about visibility of undergarments as well, I think was something we didn’t touch on. We talked a lot about bras, but the line that Pat had in here about wearing slips under skirts, it made me think of the VTL, visible panty lines.

Amanda:

Oh my gosh, yes!

Ruby Gertz:

And how that is also often such a thing that comes up in dress codes for offices, is if there’s even a suggestion that you’re wearing underwear.

Amanda:

I think, when she talked about the camisole too. I mean, so think of that, like if you were gonna get dressed to go to work, first you’d put on an underwear and a bra and your pantyhose. Then you would put on a slip and a camisole. Or maybe it would be a one-piece slip. So we got another layer there. Then a blouse or a dress. Then a blazer or a cardigan. And this is year round.

Ruby Gertz:

a lot of layers, it’s a lot of layers.

Amanda:

and it’s a lot of money.

Ruby Gertz:

And you’re gonna sweat! Yeah, you’re gonna sweat! And she mentioned getting those shoes dry cleaned, like that’s incredibly expensive. Like I rarely get stuff dry cleaned now because I don’t wear nice stuff very often, but like every time I do I’m always like kind of sticker shocked by the price.

Amanda:

I know.

Ruby Gertz:

Like I’m always like, wait what? Like…

Amanda:

Well, and the other thing about dry cleaning, and I’m talking about this as a person who rarely gets dry cleaning done either, but men’s shirts are far less expensive to dry clean than a woman’s dress or blouse.

Like there’s like a pink tax even associated with dry cleaning.

Ruby Gertz:

Ugh.

Amanda:

And then you’re having to wear all these, like I’m sure they weren’t asking men to wear three layers of clothing to obscure their undergarments, you know?

Ruby Gertz:

No.

Amanda:

And yeah, I mean, I just, like, a lot of this carries into now. And conversely, there are plenty of people who, you know, are, maybe their gender assigned at birth, birth was male, or that is their gender expression, who really don’t want to wear a gray suit and a long sleeve white button-up and a tie and dress shoes and trouser socks 365 days a year either.

Ruby Gertz:

Absolutely.

Amanda:

So it’s just… I mean, because when I see men out in the city wearing suits in the summer, I’m like, how? There was this guy who would always appear in downtown Portland during the summer, who I would see him, he was like, he had the same commute as me. So I would see him on his bike wearing like a suit in like the fall winter. And then in the summer, I would see him just wearing dress pants and no shirt to ride his bike to work. Always made me laugh, but I was like, I get it.

Ruby Gertz:

Like entirely shirtless, like bare chested?

Amanda:

Entirely shirtless.

Ruby Gertz:

Oh my gosh.

Amanda:

But like dress pants. Yeah, like the shirt and jacket were in his briefcase or something.

And it was just so, I would see him every day, like no shirt, just writing to work.

I was like, it was like off-putting because you just don’t expect to see topless people at like eight in the morning, just in general.

And then I was like, yeah, I get it, because I’m so sweaty when I get to work. I can’t

even imagine having all those layers. But imagine if I had to wear all these other things just to hide the fact that I was wearing underwear, which we’re all wearing.

It’s just, yeah, it’s so gross. All right, what do we have? I know Maggie, you actually had some thoughts about the impact of dress codes on trans and gender nonconforming individuals. Did you wanna share those a little bit?

Maggie Greene:

Yeah, this comes up with my clients a lot. It’s, I think 50 to 60% of my clients identify as queer, somewhere on the LGBTQIA plus spectrum. So I work with a lot of trans folks, work with a lot of non-binary folks. Dress codes are a pain point. And I say pain intentionally, like forcing someone who… is not male or female to dress as male or female is exhausting, frankly. I mean, it zaps mental energy, it zaps emotional energy. I think we all can acknowledge, we have in previous episodes, like there are more people that exist than just men and women, and yet when we see dress codes, they are largely categorized. in alignment with this idea of a binary gender. So my thoughts are like, where does everyone else fit in? How are they supposed to navigate that?

How do they comply with the quote unquote rules and still maintain their individual identity? It’s not possible. In a lot of cases, I’m thinking about a client right now who is non-binary, but who is not out at work. The dress code is part of that, part of their decision to not disclose that about themselves in their work environment. So they work in a male-dominated industry in a pretty fairly conservative type of role. They’re like literally and figuratively masking on a daily basis. They’re, you know, you mentioned the idea of a costume, like they’re putting on a costume, a face, a veneer, embodying a character or persona that’s not in alignment with who they are authentically. I mean, like I said, it zaps their energy, it takes away their focus, it can actually be a distraction, like while at the workplace, which no doubt has an impact on their ability to do their best work. It drains their social battery, right? It also This is something that we worked through as well. Like it leaves them exhausted at the end of the day. Like they don’t have a lot of bandwidth left for things like social engagements and self-care even. Um, so back to the, the quote from the article that was referenced a little bit earlier, like lower paid employees having to choose between saving up and dressing up. In this person’s case, they’re forced to choose between. prioritizing their mental health and psychological safety. Like that’s one choice. Do I wanna be safe? Do I wanna have, you know, like good positive mental health experiences or do I wanna be who I am at work? Like they’re mutually exclusive. They don’t get to have both. It’s really scary. It’s also, you know, we’ve used these words throughout this conversation. It’s dehumanizing and demoralizing. And frankly, like I think people deserve better.

Amanda:

Absolutely. Even if you’re just like, I am a cold-hearted capitalist, right? Take all of your care of people, about people out of the equation. Wouldn’t you realize that forcing people to adhere to these policies really robs them of their productivity? If your goal is to get the maximum amount of work out of your workers, why would you make them dress in a way that is uncomfortable physically and mentally and therefore probably prevent them from being as productive as you might want. I don’t know. I feel like all the jobs I’ve had, there’s been a lot of hang up on getting as much work out of every possible person, right?

Ruby Gertz:

Totally. I feel like it’s kind of one of those arguments, Amanda, where it’s almost like the fat-phobia thing too, where it’s like, why wouldn’t you just want to sell to like all these people that want to buy clothes? But it’s like, I don’t know, I feel like there is like this weird like level at which like prejudice like eclipses capitalism as like the number one goal. It’s like actually no, it’s actually more important that people are like feel shitty and bad.

Amanda:

Yeah,

Ruby Gertz:

It’s like, why?

Amanda:

it’s true. I think you just hit it there because it’s been something that I go round and round about where I’m like, I just don’t understand. Like so many so many companies out there will do everything they can to make a dime, like just throwing ethics out the window in every possible way. But then be like, I’m not going to dress fat people or I’m not going to let people dress as themselves at work. Like, just because.

Ruby Gertz:

I wonder if it’s like, I don’t know, back to the power thing,

Amanda:

Yeah.

Ruby Gertz:

right? It’s like, I mean, it really sucks, but it’s like, maybe that’s like, for to serve those goals, right, to keep everybody like striving towards whatever, you know, the goal of capitalism is. It’s like the hierarchy, maybe this is like so dark, but like maybe the hierarchy actually is more important than profit, like, at all costs. Like maybe having… Yeah, having people who, I don’t know, it’s like everybody’s like, well, I don’t want to be like that person, that person has it really rough, so like, I’ll just stay in my corner over here. I don’t know.

Amanda:

I mean, I think you might be onto something there, honestly. And that is very disturbing about human nature, right?

Ruby Gertz:

I don’t know if it’s human nature, but it’s like the capitalist reality that we’re living in.

Amanda:

and that power is like a number one priority for many not all people maybe not even many people But for some people power is the ultimate prize. Beyond money.

Ruby Gertz:

more than profit.

Amanda:

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That’s pretty dark. You have any dark thoughts on that Maggie or maybe something less dark

Maggie Greene:

I mean, it resonates with me. Like, yeah, it makes sense. I think they think Ruby, you’re definitely onto something. It’s not pleasant to digest. Like, that’s why we have these conversations. They’re hard, they’re challenging. We’re trying to, you know, disrupt and

get people thinking critically about these things. So I guess there’s my positive note. Like, Mission accomplished in a way, like we’re doing the thing.

Amanda:

we’re doing the thing. Yeah, and I think like this is something that I have been thinking about a lot lately and I’m sure we’ll have more conversations about it in the future, which is this idea that, you know, yes, profit for many people, like money accumulation of wealth is a ticket to power, perhaps, and that it’s not the stuff that they get along the way, it’s the power. For other people, it is the stuff, right? And so you’ll see like some companies might lean into the profit side of it and maybe like show more concern for people in pursuit of profits. But others are like, you know, I just like really wanted to be in charge of something, you know? And

yeah, I mean, it’s just like, yeah, dress codes are just like another piece of this. You know, like we’re talking about here, work uniforms. dress codes, they’re often intended to lend this air of professionalism, maybe even trustworthiness to employees in terms of like the way customers might view them. But when we talk about school uniforms, we’re really getting into more of kind of conformity for kids. And, you know, uniforms are often argued as a way of leveling the playing field in schools, which is maybe not entirely true as well. I was doing a lot of reading about school uniforms and I was telling both of you before we started recording that really, there are a lot of pieces about this all over the internet but they really just fall into two different arguments. The people who are for uniforms, it always comes back to, and I know we touched on this in the last episode, this implication of safety, right? That we are keeping, I don’t know, girls safe from sexual predators maybe? and we’re keeping boys safe from being distracted by girls. It’s like not great thinking. And the arguments against uniforms are like, hey, we’re just getting kids ready to accept a life of no individuality of conformity.

.

Ruby Gertz:

It made me think of this other quote that I had bookmarked from Dress Codes. It’s very much about how we teach children through dress codes and what we’re teaching them that really resonates. This also kind of has to do with what we were talking about before and like hierarchy and this concept of like punching down and there

kind of being someone to punch down to, which I think kind of keeps us all distracted right from actually punching up, which is what would be a lot more productive.

So this quote from Richard Thompson Ford says, modesty is by design always a moving target. Any group of women, no matter how they are dressed, can and will be divided into the virtuous and the sinful, the good girls and the bad girls. And because women carry the guilt of Eve’s original sin, moralists will always find some bad ones. When high schools enforce overly strict discriminatory dress codes, they’re doing what schools know how to do best. They are teaching their students. They’re teaching them that yoga pants aren’t just casual attire. They’re a sign of sin. They are teaching them that by example to identify, or sorry, they are teaching them by example to identify bad girls by what they wear and to treat those bad girls badly.

Amanda:

Yep. Even think about how the Catholic school uniform for girls has been turned into a sexy Halloween costume.

Maggie Greene:

yeah, it’s totally been fetishized, yep.

Amanda:

I mean, same thing with Japanese girls’ school uniforms as well. That’s another one that’s been fetishized. And yeah, I don’t know. Some of the articles I was reading that were sort of like pro school uniforms were saying, and I’m going to tell you right now, this is not true, that putting kids in uniforms or exercising a really strong dress code de-genders the student population. And I just feel like it actually exacerbates the gender, the genderization, is that even a word, of kids? Because it seems like so much focus is put on girls, right? And so it’s really about, I don’t know, it’s just policing bodies at this point. So I have a couple messages from listeners about their experiences with school and work uniforms. The first one is from Carla. She said, I’ve worked two jobs with specific mandatory uniforms, both of which were food service. As a fat assigned female at birth person, the uniforms were poorly sized for me. At one job where I was given a single uniform shirt to keep, the largest available size, too tight in the hips and much too wide in the shoulders and sleeves. And I did not have access to a sewing machine at the time to tailor it, which is a skill that is not common for service workers, regardless. At the other, there were backup shirts in the manager’s office, but they were never in a size that would fit comfortably. It should be noted I am what is considered small fat, which is a subjective term, but the point is that anyone larger than me would only struggle more. Both uniformed shirts were also made of the very non-breathable polyester and peeled quickly. I know this fabric way too well. The first job shirt was also in a color I would never wear that made me look sickly. I wonder legitimately how many people who were glad to have a level playing field of school uniforms or are or were thin. I am very glad I went to an art high school where I was not subject to stringent dress codes, much less uniforms. It was hard enough to be a fat teenager without being given the freedom to find my style for that fat body. I don’t know that I would have found Lolita fashion in the 2000s otherwise, and that’s a fashion community that has been core to my adult life. There are dress codes in the world that make sense. Requiring closed-toed shoes in a kitchen environment is a safety measure. Asking service employees to wear something that identifies them as an employee, such as a pin or an apron, lets customers know who can be asked for help. But I don’t know that purely aesthetic dress codes, especially in non-service settings, serve anyone but the boss’s feeling of control.” I thought, like, you know, one thing that came up a lot in the Instagram conversation today was that thin students were not being sort of harassed about dress code as often as fat students. Same thing with violations for work dress code. And I’ll tell you, like I had a coworker who was really hung up on writing people up for dress code. And it was always people who were larger or people that she just didn’t like. Like I think

dress code is just… so subjective and it’s like you were saying Ruby, it’s a distraction.

It’s a distraction for everyone, for the people who are subject to the dress code and for the people who are enforcing it.

Ruby Gertz:

Totally, right? Because it’s not, it’s like kind of like you were saying before about like what about quality of work, right? Or like productivity

Amanda:

how good you perform in school…

Ruby Gertz:

exactly, or like these other, these other things that would actually be like maybe really helpful to evaluate.

Amanda:

Yeah.

Ruby Gertz:

And it does, it totally keeps people distracted. And I think, I think it keeps people who do have a bit of power who are in those like supervisory positions or the position of an enforcer. of address code, it kind of keeps them punching down.

Amanda:

absolutely. We have another message from Jenny. She says, I grew up in a low income family and many of my clothes were purchased on sale or at places like Old Navy. I remember only purchasing what we could afford, which meant sometimes clothes did not fit perfectly, nor were they cut for young girls. Another story. Both in school and at church events, I remember being called out for revealing clothing. Perhaps a shirt was slightly too short because it had shrunk in the wash or I had chosen whatever was available to me. I remember these moments making me feel embarrassed about the clothes I owned, pieces I had otherwise enjoyed. I do not think there is enough discussion on the affordability of so-called acceptable clothing or the allowance for changing bodies that may not always keep up with your clothes. For schools that have low-income students, not only are uniforms a financial barrier, but dress codes can be prohibitive as well. And this is a really great one. I think just even, you know, when we talk about middle school or high school kids, you’re growing constantly, right? And it happens so fast. I remember specifically, I grew five inches over winter break. My mom didn’t even believe it. I’d gotten all these clothes for Christmas from my grandma and they fit me on Christmas day when I tried them on. And when it was time to go back to school, they were all too small. Like it just happened that fast. And like, I remember being in bed every night, like I think my bones are breaking. Like I was having major growing pains. And so now none of my clothes were be acceptable for dress code anymore. Because the shirts were too short, the skirts were too short. And what’s a family supposed to do in that situation? And it’s like penalizing someone for growing or their body changing. It’s really

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, even in adulthood, I think I can see this playing out with weight gain or weight loss or pregnancy or all of these things that cause somebody’s body to change quickly. And I think it’s so, I don’t know, yeah, it’s just, again, it’s kind of like the body odor thing where it’s like you don’t know what’s going on in somebody’s life. And to just look at this like visual thing and be like your shirt’s too short or like your skirt is showing too much leg. IAmanda:

And this

Amanda:

And kids get sent home for this. They like miss school because of this. And their parents have to come get them who might be unable to leave work. And so puts a financial burden on the family. It puts the parents in risk of losing their jobs. The kids literally miss getting an education. I have also had friends and coworkers who were sent home from work for dress code violations. It would be like, okay, well, I have to take a bus home, so I’m not gonna be back for like four hours, or I have to spend money on an Uber that I don’t have. You know, like these are all just, it’s almost like the dress codes are more destructive than they are constructive.

Maggie Greene:

Uh, yeah, understatement of the frickin’ century.

Amanda:

I know, I know.