Episode 167: Unpacking Dress Codes with Ruby and Maggie (part three)

Amanda:

I know and I will just will say that learning to listen to… to be okay with the sound of your own voice takes a really long time. I mean I’m like three years into Closed Horse and I’m finally like okay hearing my own voice doesn’t make me cringe. So that’s my advice to everyone just keep recording yourself talking and forcing yourself to listen to it and in time you will learn to be comfortable with the sound of your voice maybe even like it.

Maggie Greene:

Yeah.

Amanda:

So I mean one of the recurring themes of what Kimberly was talking about was waste right? Like wasted time, wasted clothing, even just thinking about kids going to in-school suspension, which I don’t know if your schools had that when you were growing up, but mine did. And it felt just like such a phenomenal waste of everyone’s time to put kids in a room all day that was basically a study hall. Like, why? And especially for uniform violations, or dress code violations, it feels like why… Are we de-emphasizing education in favor of dress code enforcement? Like, what a waste!

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, I really liked what Kimberly said about it feeling like a power play because I think that’s truly what it is, right? It’s about superiority and people getting, it’s like falling into line, right? Which unfortunately is kind of part of education. It’s like learning how to fall into line. And doing what you’re told. And punishing people for not, you know, yeah, for not following the rules.

Maggie Greene:

It definitely made me think about a number of my clients who come to me at various points in adulthood and they’re like, where do I even start when it comes to style? Like having been robbed of that autonomy and like early stages of development like Kimberly shared right? Like they graduate high school and where do they go from there? How do I even dress myself? You know, I just, I wanted to draw attention to that because I think First of all, Kimberly, you’re not alone. Like, know that this is a struggle that comes up for a lot of people, whether they were required to wear uniforms or had a strict dress code. You know, something in those early years like prevented them from accessing this really cool thing, which is clothing, shoes, and accessories, right?:

Yeah, it makes me sad that Like she didn’t have access to that earlier, but also makes me really excited that now, like, you know, they’ve got that opportunity. It’s pretty cool.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah, you know, something that I was thinking about since the last time we spoke, and I don’t have an answer here, is if we talk about dress code specifically for school, let’s skip the adult world right now, just schools in general, one, do we think dress code should exist at all in school? And two, if so, like, what would the parameters be? Because a lot of what seems to at least come up on these conversations on social media about dress codes in the past two weeks is that it’s all about covering bodies basically and modesty. There’s a lot of weird purity culture baked into it. And it’s hard for me to see how people seeing your bra strap or wearing spaghetti straps affects your ability to learn. And I can see that some dress code policies are very safety based, you know, like the kinds of shoes you can wear for gym class, for example, right? Or others maybe to ensure that people are warm or stay dry or what have you. But where do we draw the line with dress codes? Like in an ideal world, when we talk about school? Thoughts?

Maggie Greene:

I mean, safety is like the only thing that comes to mind.

Amanda:

Right?

Maggie Greene:

Outside of that. What is the point, really, especially like. I don’t know, like educational systems, teachers, staff, principals, everybody in that building is like, presumably, you know, they have the children’s best interests in mind and they’re shaping young minds and building the future and all of those things. And like. I. I don’t know, dress codes as a general rule seem counterintuitive to that. Like, where’s the creativity, the confidence building, the autonomy and like, I don’t know, encouraging them to learn about themselves, self-awareness, self-advocacy, all those things. I’m just hearing like conformity, like this is an arbitrary rule structure because we’re the ones in power and you are. less than because you’re young. I don’t know. It reeks of projection, like previous older generations imposing outdated and antiquated expectations, which, I mean, frankly, it’s harmful. I know I said that in our last conversation, but yeah, I mean, as evidenced by adults who come to me and they’re like… my whole concept of my body in relationship to clothing and how I show up in the world is fucked up and it started with, you know, all these memories from middle school, elementary school, all that.

Amanda:

I think that’s a really great point, Maggie. I think that it continues this cycle of a lot of bad ideas. You know, like, different example, but for many of us who really struggle with food or our bodies or self-esteem around our bodies, you know, like those of us who are really in diet culture, involuntarily, a lot of that comes from our parents, right? Like, I grew up in one of those houses where my mom was always on a diet. We could only have diet soda or crystal light. There was a lot of snack wells and lean cuisines and just all of this fretting about food and weight. And when you’re around that as a child, you carry that into your adult life. And I think it’s very similar when we talk about policing. What kids can wear and what is acceptable to wear, especially when they’re based around really like covering up bodies like modesty that kind of thing. That kind of stuff you carry into an adult adulthood no matter what your gender expression is because it bakes all these ideas in there about who should be covered and when. And like shame I guess about bodies, you know?

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, I think when you’re talking about like, like parents and parents’ fears and how they’re like kind of projecting that onto teenage bodies, it makes me think a lot about just like, I mean, like if you really, I sort of, my mind first went to actually like the TV show, Euphoria, just because everything that people wear on that show, I don’t know if you’ve seen it, but it’s like so like blatantly outside of like what any high school dress code would ever be. Like I’m talking like booty shorts with like cutouts.

But I was like, I was thinking about that and I was like, well, I was like, well, maybe we do need to draw the line somewhere, right? Like what if people were like, that is maybe like distracting or something. And it’s like, but then like teenagers like are exploring their sexuality, they are exploring like how their body like, you know, like has an effect on the people around them. And it’s like, to police the clothes is so… reactive because if we just taught people from the get-go to have like a different relationship to their own bodies and to other people’s bodies like I don’t even think that would be an issue that would come up. Like I’m thinking about like countries where people are allowed to like drink at a younger age where they don’t just like go absolutely crazy because they finally have a chance to do it. It’s like people mightthink like you know maybe it would be like oh I’m gonna try out this like look that’s like maybe… skewing to be a little more revealing or a little more like, I don’t know, sexy or something. And they might be like, okay, I tried it and I’m good. But I feel like we do sometimes provoke this almost opposite reaction where it’s like, especially with teenagers, where we’re like, your sexuality is bad, your sexuality is bad, like hide it at all costs, it’s terrible. And then they go flying in the opposite direction. And they’re like, well, then I’m going to wear this outfit that looks like… you know, inspired by like the aesthetic of like sex workers or something, you know, and it’s like, I don’t know. Yeah, that’s a really, I think that’s such a hard question of like, where do we draw the line? It’s like, we just need to do everything differently, like from the get-go. That’s my answer.

Amanda:

It’s true, it’s true. Yeah, I know there’s no easy answer there, but it does seem like we know that how it’s going right now is probably not great and it really just reinforces a lot of attitudes about bodies and sexuality and body types and makes people more uncomfortable with their own bodies or the bodies of others. And it’s just sort of a cycle that’s going to continue until there is a change there because we’re like, this is the time of your life where you’re is being molded forever. You know?

Ruby Gertz:

yeah, it’s high stakes.

Amanda:

yeah it really is. It really is. And you know the last thing I’ll just say on that is like schools should be in the business of educating people right? And The fact that so many resources like time are spent on enforcing these kinds of things, the fact that kids would be pulled from class and miss educational opportunities based on what they’re wearing is absurd. It’s just the opposite of what school is for unless it’s sort of like, this is where you learn to fall into line.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

And maybe that is part of it, I don’t know. Any final thoughts there, Maggie, you got anything?

Maggie Greene:

I don’t think so, just like a recap of what’s the point. Like

Amanda:

Hahaha!

Maggie Greene:

the intended purpose is not actually like the results that this is yielding, you know?

Amanda:

yeah, totally. It’s just like a lot of distraction. And it, it says, especially it’s like ironic because oftentimes when we hear about like, oh no bare shoulders, no tank tops, no one can see your bra strap, no tight jeans, etc, etc. It is like because it’s distracting. But it really seems like the obsession over this is possibly more distracting. Based on just like all of the comments we read last week on Instagram, I was like, wow. What a phenomenal distraction, you know?

Amanda:

Okay, well. Let’s shift into talking about uniforms. We’re gonna talk about work uniforms primarily, but we’re gonna touch on school uniforms as well. And I was motivated to do a little bit more digging into the scale of uniforms as an industry and what happens to them for a few reasons. One, some of the messages that we’re gonna discuss today and even the one we already listened to from Kimberly When the need for these clothes no longer exists, meaning you quit your job or you move to a new school or whatever, those clothes go to the landfill, right? That stuck in my mind. And then on Friday night, I was recording a future episode with someone who works in the field of EPR and textile stewardship. And she talked about how phenomenally wasteful. the uniform industry is. And that’s one area that a lot of people don’t think about, that actually reining that in and making it more circular would make a big impact on the textile waste stream. I was like, wow, you’re right. That’s true, you know, because.

We’re gonna listen to some other messages and read some other messages that touch on that, but I was like, yeah, this is right. So uniforms are a huge business here in the United States. About $11 billion worth of uniforms and related work wear are sold each year. That’s not including school uniforms, which are another $59 million.

The UK buys about 39 million uniform garments each year. And about 90% of them end up in the landfill after use because very few companies, very few employers repair and return them into circulation. sort of like a dead end with the employee, often because the employee does pay for at least part of the uniforms. There’s very little repair and reuse in this area. So something I had wondered about was like, who pays for uniforms, right? And they kind of come in two categories. There are… They’re not exactly a uniform, but they kind of are. Like, for example, people at Target have to wear red shirts, right? When I worked at Starbucks, I had to wear khakis, later, black pants. I was responsible for buying those. Those were my own pants. I suppose the conceit there is that, you know, the Target employee is welcome to wear a red shirt outside of work. I could have worn my khakis whenever I wanted, but we know. that probably no Target employees ever wear red outside of work. And that color’s like ruined for them forever, right?

Ruby Gertz:

Definitely.

Amanda:

And I certainly, right, right. So like, we know that like this, it’s kind of like a, I don’t know, it’s. It’s not true that these are gonna get a lot of wear, and I guarantee the average Target employee leaves their job and fills a garbage can with red t-shirts because they’re like, I hate red now. It represents something to me.

And I say that because I follow that Target subreddit for Target employees and everybody is really stressed out and unhappy, so I know they’re not wearing a lot of red outside of work. So here in the United States, the Fair Labor Standards Act does not require employees to wear work uniforms, but it allows employers to mandate them. Makes sense. According to the Wage and Hour Division, employers who require uniforms should pay for them and deduct them as business expenses. However, that’s not the law. The law isn’t that employers should pay for it. It’s just suggested. In some cases the employer might subsidize the uniforms, although it’s kind of questionable how much, but the employee themselves bears most of the expense. And then it’s theirs to deal with, repair, laundry, that kind of thing. Now if there’s any safety related work wear, the employer is required to pay for that. Here’s where it gets a little bit more complicated, because I have definitely had the uniform deducted from my first paycheck, right? Employees who require their employees to pay for their own uniforms must pay them at least $7.25 per hour after deducting the cost of the uniform from the paycheck. So if your hourly wage is $8.25 an hour, God help you, the employer can only deduct $1 toward that uniform. However… they could deduct that from every paycheck for the whole year until they recoup your share of it.

Ruby Gertz:

Oof.

Amanda:

So I know, I know. So there are some states out there where they are required to pay a greater portion or provide them all together, but in general. The uniform is, it’s the responsibility of the employee. And now flight attendants, their situation is slightly better. I mean, think about like their uniform is super dialed in and it’s expensive. I worked a few years ago as a consultant for a company that just completely up cycles, basically like industrial stuff and excess from the footwear industry and things like that. And they did a big project who was retiring all of their fleets uniforms. So pilots, desk, you know, counter agents, flight attendants, you name it. They were retiring everything and they were doing this whole new uniform design designed by Zach Posen which I’m just gonna say like it’s not very cute. Just my opinion. The older ones were way cooler and so all of the uniforms were sent to this company. And they turned them into, you know, bags and pillows and travel accessories and whatnot. And I will tell you, they were some of the nicest garments I’ve ever touched. Like so high quality and like meant to last like really wonderful fabrics and like great trims and zippers. Not the kind of clothes I generally get to touch working in today’s fashion industry.

Just really, really lovely and no doubt expensive. So For most airplanes, flight attendants are required to purchase an initial set of uniforms and luggage, but their employer usually pays for upkeep, repair, and any replacements. There’s also often a dry cleaning allowance for it that the company covers. So it’s not quite the burden that it could be because I can only assume if you’re a full-time flight attendant that’s

Ruby Gertz:

You probably need to travel with like a spare set too. I’m thinking like I have a friend who’s a flight attendant and she’ll like go somewhere, you know, and like sometimes they’ll stay over if it’s a long flight and come back the next day and I would assume you’re probably changing uniforms in between those flights.

Amanda:

I hope so. I get so gross and sweaty on planes.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

Just in general, imagine if you had to like go serve drinks and put people’s bags away and all the other stuff.

Now, I thought that was really interesting because when I think of uniforms, my mind immediately goes to flight attendants. But we know there are all kinds of uniforms out there, whether we’re talking about like service industry, some retail jobs, some manual labor positions, factory jobs. There are a lot of uniforms out there right now. It does seem as if though here, at least in the United States, majority of what we would think of as a uniform is really just the employer telling the employee that they have to wear a certain color or a certain kind of garment so it’s not officially uniform which makes it 100% the employees responsibility. And I am assuming that is a money-saving measure.

Ruby Gertz:

It probably is. I’m also wondering of those employers who do pay or who charge their employees like over the course of multiple working hours or over the course of multiple paychecks like for their uniforms, like I would probably assume also that employer is like profiting off of that. Like they probably place a bulk order for those polo shirts, right? And they’re probably paying like three to five dollars per unit and I’m sure the employee is paying like $25 or something, you know, like it’s part of the business.

Amanda:

Yeah, no doubt there. You know, when I was a teenager working in Pennsylvania, every time you started a new job, you had to pay this like employee employment privilege tax or something like that. It came out of your first paycheck. It was $50. So I remember starting a job waiting tables where I had to get two polo shirts, which came out of my paycheck. I had to pay that $50 employment privilege tax, which is ridiculous. And so when I got my paycheck, it was for $0.00 and zero cents. And it was for a two week period. And so making uniforms the employee’s burden, it’s just, I’m sorry, it’s just unfair. Like who has more money to play with here? It’s not the employee, you know?

Ruby Gertz:

Totally. Especially when you’re first starting a job too. I’m thinking how many people have like, you know, are looking for a job for a long time and living really leanly and then to have to like, sacrifice your first paycheck is really awful. Like I worked at a place that required everybody to purchase a respirator before their first day because sometimes we work with like toxic chemicals and stuff. And the respirator was $50. And you really can’t find one for cheaper than that. And I had a coworker who was saying how like, he had to like put it on a credit card because he just didn’t have money to pay for it, like prior to the first day of working. So it’s like, it’s very unfair. And it really sets people back before they’re even like starting the job.

Amanda:

Yeah, it’s really unfair. Most people are not working because they’re rich. You

know what I mean? Ha ha ha. So. Another, like, something that has struck me every time I’ve gone to Japan is how many more people are wearing uniforms there and how distinctive the uniforms are based on the job. And so, you know, even as a person who’s just traveled there, I can spot someone in a uniform and be like, oh, that’s one of the people who cleans the train, or oh, that’s the person who works as the crossing guard, or that’s the person who sells tickets, you know, etc., because they’re really, really distinctive and elaborate. They include like headwear, footwear, the whole rigamarole. And by the way, the people who clean the Shinkansen trains, they wear pink uniforms. They’re like a really nice color. All right, like they’re very eye catching to me. But it’s something Dustin noticed too. He was like, wow, there’s so many good uniforms, just even at the airport, looking at all the different people and their uniforms. Like it is a country of uniforms. And so I did some reading about that and I found this piece, which I’m going to share in the show notes that said, Japan must be one of the most uniformed nations in the world. through high school and sometimes even at colleges. And employee uniforms, mainly for women, are worn at workplaces ranging from tiny firms to giant corporations, from lavish showrooms to little shops selling mobile phones. And it is true, after I reading this, I was like, yeah, you’re right. It’s always the women that I see in uniforms. And remember when I talked in the last episode about getting on the train at rush hour in Tokyo and all the men were wearing the same exact suit?

Maggie Greene:

Mm-hmm.

Ruby Gertz:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

Often that’s like a pseudo uniform, which we’re gonna talk about in a minute as well. But the women in the office often are changing into uniforms there. But not the men, they’re just wearing their suit. Interestingly enough, like the reason for all of these uniforms, ostensibly, is identification, which makes sense. We’ve talked about that so you know where someone works. Pride, it’s meant to instill a feeling of pride in the employees. Safety, totally makes sense. And free marketing. So one thing that I thought was really interesting is about 30 to 40 years ago, there was a big anti-uniform movement in Japan. People were like, hey, we’re fed up with being stripped of our individuality. Like we want people to be who they wanna be and wear what they wanna wear. There was even a big push to remove school uniforms, kids just wear whatever they wanted. Interestingly enough, the pendulum swung the other way and everybody’s like, yeah, I’m totally cool with uniforms now, like bring it on. But now employers are moving away from uniforms, especially in situations where there’s no customer interaction. Because I think that’s a really important thing is that office employees, primarily women, would go into the office and change into a uniform to go work at a desk, which is wild, right? Many companies stopped having their female office workers wear uniforms after the Equal Employment Opportunity Act came into force in 1986. This is from the same article. These uniforms came under attack as symbols of gender discrimination. So once again, it was just women being asked to wear these uniforms. And eliminating them was also in line with the business world’s drive to cut costs. So the long time outfits that women office workers were expected to wear were called the OL uniform, the office lady. And we talked in the last episode very briefly about how like school uniforms have been fetishized. So was the OL uniform,

Ruby Gertz:

That doesn’t surprise me.

Amanda:

right? I know, right? So the other reason, so employ, you know. companies there were like, we’re sick of spending the money to provide these uniforms. It’s money we don’t really need to spend. We could just put a dress code in place. But also, if a company in Japan requires uniforms, they’re also required to have a special changing room for people to change into uniforms, obviously divided by gender. And that was another expense that they just didn’t wanna spend anymore. Like these are, I mean, and you think about it and you’re like, yeah, it makes sense. You should do what they do here in America and somehow make money off of selling uniforms to your employees, right?

But I thought even that there was changing room I was like huh because I’ve had a lot of jobs where I’m changing in the bathroom I’m changing the subway I’m changing in the break room like there’s no special place for changing So the other aspect of uniforms in Japan is less formal, but it’s still just as rigid. And it’s this idea of pseudo uniforms, as in what you should be wearing based on what you do, what your age is, what your gender is, all of that. And so it can be what you’re expected to wear to go to job interviews, what you’re expected to wear to go in an office, what you’re expected to wear as a mother of a small child, I could go on and on and on. The business suits are a great example where no one said, hey, everyone, you have to wear a gray suit to work every day with a white shirt and a black tie, but that is what the expectation is more socially, and so that’s what everyone wears. And that’s driven by a few things that I think are really interesting, knowing that 30 or 40 years ago, Japan was like, hey, let’s be more about individuality, because one of the biggest drivers of these pseudo uniforms is a lack of desire to stand out. Everybody wants to fit in, blend in. And that’s because diversity and individuality are not the norm in Japan, no matter how many issues of fruits you read. It’s really not how most people dress there. And that’s why actually if you are a fan of fruits or any of that other sort of like Harajuku aesthetic, you should realize that it is like very revolutionary. Because I think before you go to Japan for the first time, you think that’s how most people are dressing there. And actually you can’t be further from the truth. It’s actually a small subculture of people who are very like brave and creative. There’s also this sense of failure avoidance. Basically like if I lose access to an opportunity and like ruin my life or whatever because I was wearing the wrong outfit, I’ll have to deal with that regret forever. So what I’m going to do is wear what everybody else wears and then I can’t be wrong. And then lastly, All the retailers there are just churning out the same suits and business attire over and over again. It’s easy for them. And it’s no one cares because they’re like, oh, you know, this is what I need to wear to fit in. But it does further imprint these pseudo uniforms if you go shopping for something to wear for work or school or what have you. And it’s the same thing that you saw in everybody else. Like, it’s just like, oh, this is what I have to wear. So it sort of reinforces this sense of uniformity.

Maggie Greene:

I just pictured like in a lot of retail spots out here out west, right? In America, it’s like career separates. This like that idea. So it’s like pieces and parts of all the same suit, but maybe it’s that, I mentioned the compulsory masculine trio of colors, like gray, you know, gray, black, Navy. I mean, if that’s all that’s available for folks in terms of work wear. It makes sense, it sort of speeds into itself.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah, it really does. It’s like a cycle that just keeps repeating. Like, oh, we’ll just keep wearing those colors because that’s all there is. And it kind of makes not wearing those colors even more of an outlier. Because you’re also like, where did you get that mustard colored suit or whatever, you know? And it is true, like I don’t… really buy a lot of clothes when we’re in Japan. Sometimes Dustin does, but it’s because it’s like when it comes to like women’s wear, it’s just kind of like the same thing everywhere. And it’s not really appealing to me because I don’t wanna wear navy gray or black very often. And so I usually only find things that are appealing to me in the more like teenager stores. Ha ha ha. So, it is interesting, but you do notice these uniforms. The first time I went, I was like, wow, all the women who have like a child under five have the same outfit. It’s incredible. I’m like, there’s those pants again. There’s those shoes again. Oh, it’s a striped shirt, like over and over again. And it’s just like to know that it’s not something I was imagining that’s real, I think, I don’t know. Makes me feel good. Anyway, okay. So speaking of uniforms and like, you know, kind of. where they might come from, what happens to them. We have a great message from Aimee that I was so delighted to hear because it’s about a place that I have always wondered about, which is Trader Joe’s, because I always wondered, do they have to bring their own Hawaiian shirt? Right, although I guess now they mostly wear t-shirts, right? Well, we’re gonna find out because we’re gonna listen to this audio message from Aimee.

Amanda:

So when I was sharing those wardrobe statistics earlier, I highly doubt they included t-shirts like this, which is a whole other. I mean, you both know how I feel about these sort of single use t-shirts.And think about how many of these are going out into the world every day.

Maggie Greene:

There has to be a report out there, like, for each corporation. I don’t know if it’s public information, but, yeah, like, Trader Joe’s, we want to know. Show us those numbers.

Amanda:

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I do, I mean, I think Amy has a really good point that like people aren’t donating their shirts to the Goodwill. I’ve never seen a Trader Joe shirt at a thrift store. Have either of you?

Ruby Gertz:

No,

Amanda:

Right.

Ruby Gertz:

I think the assumption is that probably nobody wants it, right? Like I’ve had shirts that are like have like a specific like university name on the front or like, but it’ll be like for an event. Like I used to work in college admissions and we would get all these single use tees for like accepted students day 2021 or whatever, you know? And you’re like, I don’t want like nobody wants that. Like I don’t think that even has a use in the thrift store. Like you’re just like, yeah, this is trash.

Amanda:

I mean you could put it on and impersonate a Trader Joe’s employee at the store which does sound kind of like a fun prank.

Ruby Gertz:

Well also if, like she was saying, like the older ones are very maybe valuable because it like has some sort of clout. It almost made me think of, I was listening to a different fashion podcast recently that was talking about the history of prison uniforms, like speaking of uniforms, but they

were talking about that, about how like they changed them over time and so people who have the older ones, it like is this huge signifier of like seniority and rank. within this enclosed social circle that people participate in. And it just makes me think of that, how it’s like we attach such symbolism and meaning to these things that aren’t even intended that way, but it’s just how our brains work. We’re like, oh, yeah, that’s an old shirt from somebody that they haven’t made that shirt in three years. That person’s been here forever. I’m going to ask them how to do this thing or something.

Amanda:

At first I sort of laughed the first time I heard this message like, oh my gosh, people are so silly that they would like draw rank based on the age of the t-shirt someone was wearing. But then I remembered when I worked at Starbucks, someone who had been there longer than me had like a Starbucks hat. And I was like, oh man, will I ever be as important as him and get my own hat? You know, like it felt like goals. Work here long enough to get a Starbucks hat. Okay, so next we have a message from Allie, who’s experienced a whole spectrum of workplace dress codes and uniforms. I wanna see if Ruby Gertz, maybe you wanted to read it. Okay.

MESSAGE FROM ALLIE

I’ve experienced three different “dress code” environments.

The first is the good old uniform, ranking in the same class as promotional t shirts and swag. Funny how you never really see Burger King polos at the thrift store. I wonder why that is. On day one I was handed a set of pants and/or the polo shirt, always ill fitting and uncomfortable material. One uniform that you’re expected to wear multiple times a week. I always felt cheap, dirty, and uncomfortable. When I would inevitably leave these jobs, the clothes would just sit in my drawer til I donated them. I know uniforms are designed to be ready for work and safety standards, but it’s like you’re supposed to feel exactly like the role you’re there to play… a fast food worker or someone who is lesser in some way.

Next is the luxury retail environment. For a long time, I was the operations manager at a high end jewelry store. Everyone was required to adhere to the pantsuit and professional business attire, on a daily basis. Meaning 4 to 7 days a week. YES, it was a financial burden. In more ways than one. No stipend or bonus is ever granted to look the part. And the idea that you will be more successful if you look more professional is SO TOXIC. Add to that, I’m a plus size woman and business attire in my size can be difficult to find, and always more expensive. Not only does this toxicity show up in fashion, but also beauty. Full face of make up on a daily basis. It was all extremely hard on my self worth as a woman. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy style. But this arena can place so much on image, it become nauseating. Not to mention, I was always rebelling against the dress code and putting my job in some perceived jeopardy because I had chosen a tattoo or pink hair. Don’t even get me started on being a large chested female! Somehow because I’m showing natural cleavage with a blouse, I’m to be shamed.

Finally, my personal favorite, the business casual. And for once and for all, let’s just include denim in this category. The ability to dress as your own unique individual is so important, now more than ever. I’m more productive when I’m comfortable, and am better able to connect with authenticity. Better yet? My fashion budget can be on my terms.

Amanda:

You know, something that I was thinking as you were reading this is, you know, with all of this focus on these sort of non-uniform uniforms, like talking about what she had to wear at the luxury retail environment and what a financial burden it was, would it be better then to have uniforms and work be the norm? If but of course we know that somehow companies would figure out a way to make money off of employees But like i’m wondering could it be less of a burden if it was just like this is the uniform that you wear To work at the chanel store or whatever. I know that would never happen But it would seem to me that it would take some of the financial burden off of the employee

Maggie Greene:

if they if the employer shared in that financial burden yeah like providing them not only the guidance like this is the uniform and how to access it but we’re gonna you know subsidize or take it out of your paycheck or whatever um or provide it for you all together that would be amazing

Amanda:

It always annoys me that people at, like, say Target just have to go buy a red shirt somewhere out in the world when the company could easily supply them, you know, and probably for a more affordable price for the employees. Or, I mean, the company could afford it anyway. But I know that there was a time where Target definitely was supplying the shirts, and then they were like, nah, just go ahead and get a red shirt anywhere. It’s fine. And I know that is, like, an intentional decision to pass that financial burden onto the employee.

Maggie Greene:

Yeah, there was a quote earlier in our conversation. It’s like a cost saving measure, right?

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah.

Maggie Greene:

Companies are trying to cut every corner they can.

Amanda:

Totally, totally. So another thing that I was thinking about, and then we’re going to listen to, but one of us is going to read a message from Liz. Could having a job that requires a uniform, at least now in 2023 here in the United States, could that be a signifier of class? And is that an uncomfortable signifier of class? If you see someone out who’s obviously like wearing like the white jacket of a doctor, you’re like, oh, that person’s a doctor, right? in some ways, these very simple uniforms will give you authority and freedom, right? But conversely, If you show up in a Burger King uniform, people are making judgments about you as well.

Maggie Greene:

That’s one thing that stuck out about Allie’s share is like the down to the fabric that these garments are made out of. It’s like, you know, like cheap polyester is what I’m guessing, which feels terrible against your skin.

And, you know, the polo sort of as a style is, I don’t know, according to some of these dress code standards we’ve read, is like, certainly not like executive level respectability and like…

professionalism quote unquote. So yeah that that’s what stuck out to me. The crappy materials, as far as signifying class, the branded polo, the association with like fast food and food service being perceived as some lesser-than way to provide for your family, and you know, survival.

Amanda:

And then conversely, there are these pseudo uniforms, like the Tech Bro half zip, fleece half zip situation, or other branded swag that you might see someone who works for a software company wearing. It’s its own sort of strange uniform, although they probably got it for free.

Maggie Greene:

The pseudo uniforms you were talking about, all of the men wearing the same the same suit,

like I’m sure that there are places on Wall Street, like the finance sector where it is just like an ocean of blue, gray, and black suits, like everyone looks the same.

Stock brokers, you know, they have that same kind of aesthetic. And I guess the assumption there, you know, if you work with money. you have access to it. You’re like top of the ladder or whatever.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, I think there’s also like, in regards to class, there’s also kind of like a group of uniforms that we haven’t talked as much about that’s like, signifies like proximity to class, but also your like removal from it. Like, I’m thinking of like caterers who have to wear tuxedos to like fancy events or like doorman or like, you know, people who have these positions where it’s like, they have to dress really nice because they’re like working with rich people and like in proximity to very rich people.

those outfits are very expensive and those people are not making a lot of money, but it’s almost like this like opposite, it’s like almost the opposite of like the polyester polo shirt where it’s like you, it’s your job to look really, really nice because you’re kind of existing as like a service provider in this like arena for the very wealthy.

Amanda:

Even like maid uniforms.

Ruby Gertz:

Oh yeah.

Amanda:

right? Like people still use those. Like, and also it’s been fetishized. A lot of uniforms have been fetishized when you really think about it. Maybe not like Burger King uniforms yet. It’s probably happening right now. Like someone somewhere has like a sexy version of a logo polo.

But yeah, like there are… I mean, there are very cut and dry versions of uniforms being like a clear indicator of class, like for example, a maid uniform, but I think there are more subconscious ones as well.

MESSAGE FROM LIZ:

I’ve had a job with a strict dress code. I worked for my then-boyfriend’s dad’s environmental company on breaks from school from age 16 until after college, then worked there full time for over a year after graduating.

This company had a strict dress code of khaki pants, light blue button down shirts with the company logo, and closed toed brown shoes. If you wore a jacket, you were supposed to wear one with the company logo on it. If I remember correctly, men’s faces were supposed to be shaved unless they had a quarter inch beard, so if someone wanted to wear a beard, they would have to grow it out over a vacation.

I was told that this uniform was put in place because they’d had issues with folks dressing professionally. I think originally the uniform was only used by workers who went out into the field, but was expanded to everyone at some point before I started there. It was very likely influenced by the founder’s time in the army. It made us look professional and recognizable when doing our work in the field. In the dilapidated neighborhoods where I worked in the field, wearing a uniform kept me from being questioned when entering abandoned buildings. At the office, there were no questions about what clothes were considered professional.

I was self conscious about how I was perceived in the uniform. It wasn’t my first time wearing a uniform (I went to school in a navy blue A-line dress that tied in the back and had a white Peter Pan collar for 7 years) but it was the first time I wore one that made me feel I was dressing outside my class. It took me a long time to put together that I not only felt ugly in the boring menswear, but I was also figuring out class presentation for the first time. Even though the uniform would be acceptable in any office, wearing the logo button down shirt and being forced to wear the same thing everyday made me feel different than my friends wearing their non-uniformed business casual, and it didn’t feel at all the same as my prestigious private school uniform.

Amanda:

So I thought that was interesting that there could be this differentiation like from a class perspective in terms of who has to wear a uniform and who doesn’t. Like the freedom to wear what you want. Although if this dress for success book is to be believed no one should have freedom to wear what they want. Does anyone have any thoughts there?

Ruby Gertz:

I can definitely relate to like the concept of like feeling like you’re in your uniform and you’re like meeting up with your friends after work or something that are like not in theirs. Like I feel like feeling that like sense of physical discomfort of like this isn’t really who

Amanda:

Yeah!

Ruby Gertz:

I am or there’s like a differentiation here like you’re these other people are getting to like express something like a bit of their individuality and yours has been like completely stripped from you.

Amanda:

Yeah, it’s like, oh, individuality, oh, well, you have to be a certain class to get that. Right?

Ruby Gertz:

Especially the part about the founder of the company being a veteran and having a military background, I can really see that. I’ve definitely interacted with folks who have military backgrounds who some of them really enjoyed having that dictated to them as like, this is something I don’t have to think about, I just do it the same way every single day. And there’s other people who feel so stifled by that. can’t wait to get out and never do it again.

Amanda:

It’s true for some people wearing a uniform is freedom. Freedom to think about something else, right? Like they don’t have to worry about it. They don’t have the responsibility, the pressure of figuring out what to wear. I did think it was interesting that somehow the dress code was like such an issue in this office that everyone had to switch to uniforms. And like, what does that mean? You know?

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah, right. It would be interesting to hear from other people that were there longer, right? Like if there was something, like a particular incident that happened.

Amanda:

I was mentioning that I’ve had a coworker who was really hung up on dress code and would write people up for it or have conversations with them. And she would say like, look, look at these photos I took secretly on my phone of what they were wearing and show me the photos. And I felt confused because I didn’t see anything wrong with what they were wearing.

And I’ve like, actually like my brain stored those photos away and I’m still every day like, what was the problem? Is it because it was like, I just, you know, like how problematic was the way people were dressing in the first place? I don’t know. I think it’s like something that some people are just really hung up on. It goes back to the subjective nature of dress codes.

Maggie Greene:

I don’t know if either of you felt this way, but instantly with the description of the prestigious school uniform, like I got warm fuzzies. Like the idea of an A-line dress with a Peter Pan collar, like in a contrasting color is like, I’m still actually reeling from that. Because that spoke to me on a really deep level in terms of like style choices and individuality. I’m like, ooh, that sounds like

Something I would wear.

Amanda:

No, I know, but guess what? It’s not gonna help you meet the right men.

According to John T. Malloy. But that’s like totally an outfit I would wear to work, right? But it’s probably too cute or I don’t know. I don’t know. Reading John T. Malloy is making me realize why I’m not a CEO right now. So Maggie, you talk to your clients, right? And you got some more like dress code thoughts, feelings for us.

Maggie Greene:

Yeah, so I run a fairly small but mighty Discord community and in anticipation of our first recording, part one, I asked my community members to kind of weigh in, like what thoughts come to mind for you about dress codes, when have you faced like financial burdens or other barriers, like tell me everything. So I had a few folks respond. Leny, whose pronouns are they them, shared, I mean this is definitely going to echo a lot of the sentiment and consensus we’ve come to up to this point, but they say dress codes tend to be bullshit, misogynistic, body shaming, and especially for minors, totally unconnected to the reality of what is actually available for purchase in terms of clothing. They also feel like there’s probably a way to communicate a vibe. Um, I’m interpreting that as like the branding piece, that free marketing we were talking about earlier, uh, a way, a way to communicate a vibe for the event or company without being gendered, um, that also needs to be applied evenly. Uh, interestingly too, we were talking a little bit about science, our buddy John threw up the big S word science. Um, So we have touched on like the idea of school uniforms, at least on the intent side of things like leveling the playing field for students and having a positive impact on like learning capacity and productivity. Lenny shared an article with a direct quote that there is no scientific evidence that school uniforms level a playing field. no evidence that it has a positive impact overall on students. So there is an article from Parenting Science there about school uniforms specifically and what the research has yielded in terms of results. Maybe we can link that in the show notes. Another community member, Anne, whose pronouns are she her, shares about her experience with uniforms and dress codes. Mentioning that yeah, they definitely are a financial burden for many She worked at an upscale department store in 1986 and was supposed to dress at the level of their customers quote unquote She says she received no clothing stipend and only earned about 450. That’s four dollars and fifty cents an hour back then Basically her paycheck went to purchasing clothing to work to earn a paycheck. Let’s talk about cycles. So

We’re in a clothing store. We earn a paycheck. Only an earning only enough to purchase the clothing that is necessary to go back to work and earn that paycheck again. Um, she says after I quit, I had a bunch of clothing that I didn’t wear as the items weren’t suited for my 15 year old self. Um, that’s probably a retail environment. Uh, Deb, whose pronouns are she, her had some thoughts, uh, about. Like, is there a time and a place for dress code? So we posed that question earlier, like, you know, requiring uniforms, dress codes in general. What’s the point? Deb says, I do think there’s sometimes a time and a place for dress code, specifically around safety and security. I think we all would agree with that.

She says, I’ve seen what happens when people wear open-toed shoes in manufacturing environments or in fast food settings, and it’s not pretty. Some people don’t realize until they get into an environment exactly how dangerous it is. Um, so Deb also shared about a, I think this is the world’s largest aviation corporation. Um, one weird dress code related thing. She says, Boeing has or had a specific dress code for this very specific city located plant. And it was called team wear. She said. You had to wear it every day. While I never worked at that location, I sort of envied the simplicity of it. No one can judge you if you’re dressed up or down enough or if you’re wearing the company-issued team wear. So similar to others who have shared, Deb says that they got issued a certain number of shirts and had the opportunity to buy more. She said the team wear she saw had enough variety that some of it appealed, but not all of it.

Um, which makes me think like, I, I think we’ve mentioned it just briefly, like, what’s the point of dress codes in, you know, the absence of security and safety concerns. So we haven’t really talked about PPE, although Amanda, I know you’ve mentioned, um, it sounds like it’s a federal requirement that if the work environment requires that type of gear that the employer must provide it, is that right?

Amanda:

Well it is, but then Maggie, I mean not Maggie, Ruby said that she had to buy a respirator out of her own pocket.

Maggie Greene:

I was thinking about that, I wonder if it’s different, like, you know, full-time employees versus contractors versus part-time, like, if there are different, like, technicalities and loopholes. Because it didn’t sound like that law was necessarily very specific. So maybe employers are, I don’t know, skirting around it somehow. Clearly they have.

Ruby Gertz:

Oh, in terms of the safety gear, I think there’s definitely ways that employers can skirt around it. Like what you were saying, Maggie, of hiring people on a contract basis. Like I know people that have worked in construction type environments, and you’re not provided a lot of that stuff if you’re a contractor. Like maybe if you work for a company and you’re an employee, but a lot of times it’s like you’re just hired on the fly. It’s like, hey, can you work tomorrow? And you’re expected to show up in like… boots and hard hat and with like gloves and like the goggles or whatever proper safety equipment and that’s like on you. I have friends that have worked in spaces like that and I’ve heard that that’s like pretty common. Similarly with like farming type work because it’s also like contract based or like you know you’re paid cash sometimes even so it’s like you just show up there’s no like record even that you ever even worked there or like you’re just showing up.

And so if you want to be safe, it’s kind of like on you, or if you want to have the right clothes, it’s on you.

Maggie Greene:

Trying to think the closest experience I have with this. So I’ve worked in the construction industry a couple of different times on the administrative side first and then on the operations side later on in my life. So certainly my colleagues and a lot of our field workers were like, PPE was a requirement. It wasn’t until I guess later on in my life, yeah, the second construction industry job that I had. where I was asked to do site visits, meeting with clients and things like that. And it was like this large general contractor type of environment. So there were tons and tons of inspectors and field workers and architects. And like everybody was kind of under the same umbrella.

And they had like an employee stock room where like just where you would expect to see coffee filters and like, you know, snacks and things like that. There were… Hard hats in different sizes and I didn’t see any boots But there were definitely goggles and gloves and even as like an outside visitor It was just understood like before you go out to the field Go to the you know supply closet and gear up and then report to the site but Yeah, I don’t think they tracked any of those things. It was just you know they had a specific budget allocated for it and when they ran out, they filled it back up and it was kind of a free for all type of thing. But that’s not the norm.

Ruby Gertz:

Would you return it? I’m curious if you would return that stuff, like something like a hard hat. I would think those are probably kind of expensive. Is that something you would return when you were done with it? Or that’s like yours now?

Maggie Greene:

No, I mean, we did, certainly as visitors. I don’t know what it was like for employees, but yeah, I mean, I don’t know. I mean, I would have done it because it’s the right thing to do anyway, but imagine, like, what the heck am I gonna do with a hard hat and goggles and gloves after this meeting? Like, please.

Amanda:

Um, Halloween costume?

Maggie Greene:

okay, true, I didn’t think about that. But yeah, I’m like, here, take this stuff back. I don’t need

it, I don’t want it.

Amanda:

it’s interesting. It feels really luxurious to me because, I mean, these things are expensive, like you said, and they are such a financial burden for new employees.

Ruby Gertz:

Totally.

Maggie Greene:

I think we mentioned the phrase in a previous episode I don’t know if it was part one or part two but this idea of dress for the job you want. I internalize that phrase for my entire adult life and really like live that out. I think I’ve shared like business casual environments. even more casual work environments, I would always like step it up a notch, you know, it was a thing of pride for me. So fast forward to I no longer report to a company or organization. I am no longer beholden to an official dress code and I work from home, make my own hours, do my own shit, right? It’s my thing. I’m my own boss now. So what does dressing for the job I want look like today, like in my dream job. So two examples, one is from like before I launched my business and I was beholden to those rules. The other is from like 2020 or 2021, like very recent. Both involve Halloween. I showed up to, what was my first construction industry job when I was working admin and compliance? It was Halloween day. fell on a weekday and I came to the office dressed as Tammy Faye Baker.

Amanda:

Amazing

Ruby Gertz:

Ha ha ha!

Maggie Greene:

I was in the rural South, so it was definitely a boundary testing, like I’m pushing the envelope. There’s a lot of conservative Christians and extremists in this environment, and I just want to see if I can like make it through the day. Most people didn’t know who I was. The biggest like office gossip was, oh my god, Maggie cut off all of her hair, which wasn’t true. It was a wig.

But the one of my, I guess, crowning achievements since launching my own business was delivering a client session while in Boy George cosplay. It was like it just so happened. I was working on my style. Ween series. I had this client session and I didn’t have quite enough time to like costume change between appointments. And so. before I turned my camera on, I was like, all right, I’m here. I’m showing up as my absolute best self. Like this time is yours. But before I turn my camera on, I just want to let you know, I am dressed like Boy George right now like the, the feedback, like initial reaction when I turned the camera on, it was amazing. Like if I could have framed the client’s face in that moment, it was, it was everything, it was surprise and delight. And like. um yeah uh she suggested that perhaps i charge extra for that going forward but it was awesome like the idea of dressing up for halloween was definitely frowned upon in a lot of professional environments but it’s really cool to be where i am now and have that be part of the vibe part of the brand something that like yeah it might surprise someone it might be kind of unexpected but like It doesn’t, I don’t know, it doesn’t strike as unprofessional at all. It’s like, this is totally. Yeah. You know, it’s just me doing my thing and, you know, being my best self. So that’s what happens y’all when you dress for the job you want.

Amanda:

I love that. That is life goals. I’m definitely gonna dress up for Halloween this year now that I work for myself. Okay, well I thought we could end with a little bit more from our buddy, John T. Malloy. So one thing he is really obsessed with is this idea that women overdress. And I will tell you that there is so much. Well, first off, what a wet blanket. Do people say that anymore? This guy is a real wet blanket, but also the stuff is just dripping in classism. And so he says, I mean, after railing against overdressers, he cites a fake organization he’s beginning, he’s gonna start called Overdressers Anonymous. He says,”‘Test to see if you should join Overdressers Anonymous. “‘If four or more of the following apply to you, “‘you are an overdresser.'” not all of them because it’s a long and boring list, but please if this is you speak up as I go through these, okay?

Ruby Gertz:

Sounds good.

Amanda:

Okay, number one, you wear jewelry in the afternoon that can be worn in the evening.

Maggie Greene:

What the fuck?

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah.

Amanda:

I don’t even know what that means.

Amanda:

Okay. Two, over half of your shoes have open toes even when they’re not in style.

Ruby Gertz:

Whoa, judgy.

Amanda:

I might be getting there. I live in Texas, it’s hot here.

Maggie Greene:

I don’t know if I’d say 50% but it’s dang close. Yeah, I had a lot of open toed. Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

You hardly ever wear low heeled shoes. I think, no, we’re fine here. Okay,

Ruby Gertz:

Hahaha!

Amanda:

But this one, your glasses have rhinestones or other decorations.

Ruby Gertz:

Oh my gosh!

Maggie Greene:

Come on. I kind of want to embellish them now

Ruby Gertz:

I definitely have a pair of cat eyeglasses that have like little doodahs in the corners

Amanda:

Because we are all members of Overdressers Anonymous.I hope we all go on a cruise together.

Let’s see. You think you must run out and buy the latest items in order to keep up. I don’t think that’s either of us.

Ruby Gertz:

Mmm.

Amanda:

You wear false eyelashes in the daytime. That’s like, I don’t have the manual dexterity for that

Ruby Gertz:

What does he think of extensions?

Amanda:

Oh, he’s probably just, he’s got the vapors over it.

Maggie Greene:

That’s really common now, nowadays.

Ruby Gertz:

Yeah,

Amanda:

I know, he’s really obsessed with this idea that you would wear things that were in style or on trend. He calls them fad clothes and like that is, that’s how humans work. right? And false eyelashes or eyelash extensions are like definitely a part of that. And then he’s like, you know what, I’ve been beaten around the bush for these past eight points. How about we just go with what I really mean for number nine? You come from a lower socioeconomic background than most of your social circle. Yeah.

Ruby Gertz:

Oh my gosh. What a jerk.

Ruby Gertz:

John? I wanna know what John Malloy thinks of a practical clog paired with an athletic legging and a company t-shirt.

Amanda:

Oh, I would love to know.

Ruby Gertz:

Because that is my current work uniform. My pseudo uniform, I should say. I’m sure he hates it.

Maggie Greene:

Should we share what we’re wearing? Is that weird?

Amanda:

No, I think that’s totally fine. I worked from home today and so I am wearing a muumuu and I’m also wearing purple Birkenstocks. And as an added bonus because my guys this is TMI but I get really dry feet because it’s like hot and dry where I live but also like it’s just a side effect of having like thyroid issues. So I have these special socks on that really just cover your heel and they have like moisturizer in them.

Maggie Greene:

Nice!

Ruby Gertz:

Oh nice. Hahaha.

Amanda:

So that’s my hot look today everyone.

Maggie Greene:

Um, so

Ruby Gertz:

Overdressed!

Maggie Greene:

Ruby, you’re in a company t-shirt leggings and practical clogs.

Ruby Gertz:

Oh, I, well, I’m actually not wearing that today, because as Amanda

hinted before, my company has been moving, and so I anticipated doing a lot of sweaty physical furniture assembly today. So I’m wearing like a very kind of basic and boring cotton tank top from the thrift store, and a pair of black… denim shorts, which I’m sure is a dress code. If there was a dress code, I would be violating wearing shorts and athletic sneakers. So yeah, hot look,

Maggie Greene:

Excellent.

Ruby Gertz:

Hot look

Maggie Greene:

Not lifestyle, sneakers?

Ruby Gertz:

no, but I did wear earrings. I did try to make it look a little funky. So I did put on some earrings this morning that I’m sure that I would consider, you know, evening earrings perhaps because

they’re dangly and they have a lot of colors. So, evening earrings.

Maggie Greene:

I’ve got a powder pink V-neck cotton t-shirt, which is secondhand. I’m actually wearing a bra, which is a rarity for Mondays. I don’t ever have meetings on Mondays. I have some Capri-linked pajama pants that have a green background and pictures of coffee, coffee beans, and cups of coffee. The pièce de resistance to really tie it all together. I have my partner’s old athletic slides, sandals. They are approximately three sizes too big, so I can wear them like house slippers. So, you know, we’re styled, I’ve got pearl earrings though. So, got my evening earrings and.

Ruby Gertz:

No, no,

Amanda:

Imagine if John T. Malloy saw us right now.

Ruby Gertz:

He’d be horrified.

Amanda:

Horrified.

Ruby Gertz:

He’s turning over in his grave somewhere. I’m assuming he’s not alive anymore, but maybe he is.

Amanda:

Maybe

Maggie Greene:

We’re just,

Amanda:

yeah.

Maggie Greene:

we’re begging for failure. We’re destined for failure.

Amanda:

I know, I know, and we’re never gonna meet the right men or whatever it is he was

Ruby Gertz:

I’m

Amanda:

promising

Ruby Gertz:

sorry.

Amanda:

us. Well, thank you both of you. I think I’ve had such a great time talking about dress codes and uniforms with you, and I’m sure we didn’t exhaust everything that could be discussed, but I do feel like we hit a lot of it. It’s definitely something I hadn’t thought about that much in the past, and it’s really like. I don’t know, it’s setting a fire under me to like explore more topics like this in the future because I think it’s all part of a bigger picture, a picture called capitalism.

Maggie Greene:

Yeah.

Amanda:

Yeah.

Ruby Gertz:

Thank you so much for having us, Ananda.

Amanda:

Yeah, thank you to both of you.

Maggie Greene:

Thank you.

Thanks again to Maggie and Ruby Gertz for spending many, many hours talking about dress codes and uniforms with me. We broke the recording sessions up over a period of three weeks and I am so grateful for all the time they spent with me! If you aren’t following them already on social media, please go do that now. They are linked in the show notes. And please do what you can to support their work because we are tremendously lucky to know them!

Once again, it’s about 100 degrees here in Austin, so I’m cutting this recording session short in the name of AIR CONDITIONING!