Episode 134: Ethics Are Not Part Of The Equation, with Isabel of Isabel SK

Welcome to Clotheshorse, the podcast that gets queasy from the mere memory of the smell of Red Bull.

I’m your host, Amanda and this is episode 134. I had a different episode planned for this week, but after listening to the last episode, I realized this one was a better follow up. I think you will agree when you listen! Our special guest today is Isabel, founder of Isabel SK, a brand committed to reducing waste within the garment industry in Los Angeles. All pieces from Isabel’s line are limited run and made with deadstock or vintage goods. She and I are going to talk about how copying designs and ideas is just part of how the fashion industry runs these days. Isabel will share what it’s like to work as a designer for a fast fashion brand and be required to copy others…and then she’ll tell us what happened when HER line was copied by fast fashion brand Princess Polly.

I’m going to just go ahead and admit that the last few weeks have been pretty miserable for me. Not because something “bad” happened to me. It’s just been exhausting. And miserably hot. I feel trapped in my house. Our air conditioning broke on a day when it was 105 degrees here in Austin. Dustin and I were too worn out from the heat to even feel upset about it. Current events have been making it hard to feel happy and safe. I have a coworker who is giving me really bad anxiety. Work has been really busy. It’s a lot. And I’m sure you all have your own laundry list of things that are making you feel less than great right now. All of this has been keeping me awake at night, I’m skipping meals and not getting enough sleep. No matter how much water I drink, it’s never enough…and so it’s no surprise that I ended up with a brutal three-day headache this week.

Friday night Dustin was recording a new album with his new Austin-based band. And so I spent the night in bed with the cats. And I watched a movie that is often my go-to when I’m feeling sick, and it is a movie that gets worse with each view, worse with time…the first Sex and the City movie. Now, if you have thoughts about this, I highly recommend that you go check out the episode of The Department about Sex and the City. Kim and I have a lot to say about it.

But wow…upon viewing it this week, I think this movie moved into complete unwatchable garbage territory. I know that it’s a fantasy, it’s a comedy, it’s escapism…but wow, it is so sexist and consumerist. I think I ignored a lot of it on so many previous views because I’ve literally never cared about luxury brands or the lives of the wealthy…I just liked the relationships. But ultimately, as I get older and have more real experiences of my own, all of the relationships and problems in the series and the film feel so two-dimensional and dumb.

That said, I’m sure Friday will not be the last time I watch that movie.

So here’s what annoyed me most about this viewing (and unfortunately it was in the first 30 seconds): in a voiceover, Carrie Bradshaw asserts: “year after year, twenty-something women come to New York City in search of the two L’s: labels and love.” “

Um no, women (well, people of all ages and genders) go to NYC to work, try something new, have experiences, go to school, build careers, live in this big legendary city, be surrounded by art, music, theatre, culture…

I say this as a person who moved to New York City as a teenager, strictly to be somewhere that wasn’t where I grew up. And yes, I guess go to school, too, but that was almost secondary.

But I realize that this film was released in 2008…when pop culture was focused on the intersection of shopping, fashion, and romance. The Devil Wears Prada had been released in 2006. And it made fashion even more important and glamorous than it had ever been in pop culture. This romanticization of fashion, of the industry that actually created the clothing we wear…well it elevated the idea of fashion and style to a number one priority of all people, not just the wealthy. In fact, we can all agree that fast fashion democratized fashion in so many ways, making style and trends more accessible to people at all income levels…but I will argue that shows like Sex and the City and films like The Devil Wears Prada, Legally Blonde, Confessions of a Shopaholic, and The September Issue…they made fashion important…like WAY MORE IMPORTANT than it had ever been for the average person in the Global North. And they (perhaps accidentally, perhaps not) sort of poured gasoline on the flames of fast fashion. Because now clothing was whatever, but STYLE was a big fucking deal for everyone. Street style blogs popped up everywhere. Seriously, everyone started a style blog. Then Instagram blew up, and the outfit of the day–a key category of content for influencers and style bloggers–became an important part of life for normal, non-influencer, non-fashion industry employees.

This is also the era when I began my career in the fashion industry. If you’ve listened to the previous episode, then you know it was pretty unexpected. What I didn’t mention (and it’s important), is that life sort of forced me to take that job. Yes, I needed the money and the career to support my daughter. But also, something really violent and traumatic happened to me the day before I received that job offer. And while I had been on the fence about leaving my pretty happy life in Portland, OR to move to a more expensive city on the east coast…after that event, I had no choice but to leave town ASAP. It was the only way I would ever be able to feel remotely safe again. The only way I could sleep a full night ever again.

But I had no loyalty to fashion. No passion for it. Growing up poor had made me ambivalent to an industry that only cared about showing us wealthy, ultra thin, super beautiful, young bodies in its clothing. Why care about Chanel when I would never be able to afford one of their iconic bags? And no one in my orbit–including me–had a use for a Chanel suit or Gucci loafers. Fashion was sort of a joke to me. A joke on rich people and poor people who got sucked up into it. I loved clothes, the idea of personal style, of determining the character you were going to play that day by picking out an outfit specific to that persona. But style was personal. Style was a success for the individual. Style had nothing to do with the industry making clothing.

Furthermore I really had no loyalty to the brand that employed me, because I had watched that company do so many unethical things to so many of my coworkers over the years. This was not a company that inspired loyalty, because it had no loyalty to anyone working for it. And I suspected all brands were very similar when you pulled back the curtain. Beautiful on the outside, ugly and twisted on the inside.

But I took that job and moved across the country. And within my first week I was struck by how lonely everyone seemed. There was no sense of friendship, teamwork, or comradery within the various teams of people working long hours day after day. No inside jokes or laughter. Just competition. Desperation. Anxiety. I saw grown adults make one another cry in meetings. Bosses throw shit and scream at entry level employees. Coworkers picking apart one another’s bodies and clothes. And honestly it all felt like everyone had seen The Devil Wears Prada and thought it was some kind of HR training video. Be cruel, be deceitful, and throw your ethics by the wayside.

All so we can make a ton of clothes that won’t make anyone very happy for very long.

I had a boss who liked to say “We make candles and clothes. Nothing here is life or death.” But to be fair, it did have an impact on the life and death of so many places, people, and other living things. It’s a lot to reconcile as someone who worked within that system for so long. Most of the “nice” things that happened to me as an adult happened because I worked within that system. It’s a lot for me to think about and I’m still unpacking it all.

Today Isabel and I are going to talk about what it’s like to work within that industry. And how you are asked regularly to discard your own values. Ethics are not part of the equation at all. Doing what someone else asks, no matter how much you hate doing it, that’s how you keep a job in the industry. That’s how you grow in the industry. The people who make it to the top have to cast aside a lot of their own sense of right and wrong. So many decent people feel trapped. It’s hard to leave the industry, because thanks to The Devil Wears Prada of it all, people can’t understand why it wouldn’t be your dream job, why you would want to go work somewhere else, or do something different with your life.

I started Clotheshorse because after everything I had seen and experienced, I still saw people losing the shit over the newest Anthropologie dress or Danielle Bernstein collection or the Nordstrom Semi Annual Sale. And I wanted people to know that it was all ugly underneath and maybe those clothes weren’t so cute or necessary when you realized all the pain and waste that went into making them. That maybe true beauty, innovation, artistry, talent, and personal style could be found outside all of that, this fashion juggernaut…and it was happening in our everyday lives, with people we already knew and people we had yet to know. I hope that’s how it’s working for all of you. I know it’s changing me.

With all of that, let’s jump into my conversation with Isabel!

Amanda

Why don’t you go ahead and introduce yourself to everybody?

Isabel

Yeah, absolutely. So, my name is Isabel, I have a brand called Isabel, SK. I my brand focuses on using deadstock. And vintage reclaimed fabric and giving it a new life and turning it into new stuff. I really tried to focus on affordability and accessibility with my products as well as sustainability. Those are all like my main, you know, kind of brand ethos points that I try to stick with. And yeah, I’ve been doing this brand for a couple of years I I originally started my brand out of college, kind of on accident. Like completely on accident, actually, my senior thesis at Parsons School of Design went viral in like 2013. And wow, yeah, totally random. And like things didn’t go viral that much back then it was kind of a different time on the internet. So it was like genuinely kind of a big deal. And so I had this brand kind of born overnight. And I definitely wasn’t planning on starting a brand out of college, you know, I didn’t have like funding or anything like that. So I just kind of made it work and sold exclusively to this store in New York called V files. That was really big at the time, they’re still pretty cool doing some cool stuff. But um, back then my focus wasn’t as much on sustainability because it was more so just producing that collection that had gone viral. Yeah, so and then I kind of took a break from my brand, worked for different people moved to Los Angeles, working designing for other brands, big brands, different kinds of folks, small brands, everything. And then the pandemic hit, and everything changed as it did for everyone else as well. Italy. Yeah. So I lost my job and restarted my brand. And after, you know, after working for all these big companies in LA, I really was just super like anti overconsumption. And super pro sustainability was just really looking for a way I was like, you know, there’s gotta be a way to do this and make, you know, accessible, comfortable, cool clothing for young people that, you know, isn’t killing the planet. So that’s kind of what I’ve set out to do since then.

Amanda

I mean, I feel like your story is becoming more and more common. So many people who worked on the big corporate side of the industry are kind of like, wow, that sort of, I don’t know, like broke the spell. Yeah.

Isabel

100%. Right. Yeah, really do it. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. 100%.

Amanda

And I’m excited. I mean, like, obviously, pandemic, not a good thing on any level. I don’t want anybody to think that I think that Oh, yeah. created a lot of suffering for a lot of people. Yeah. But one, if we’re looking for silver linings here is that I do think a lot of people, no matter what industry they worked in, started to realize that maybe they weren’t that into it, or maybe they didn’t like the way that industry worked. But maybe they liked making clothes or you know, totally books or whatever it is that they did what their passion was, yes. And now they’re doing it themselves in a better way. And I hope on the other side, that we can get customers to sort of like that spell to be broken for them as well,

Isabel

no, 100% I think that something a silver lining from the pandemic is kind of like a new value for like life and our world. And I think that really like drives people’s like sense of like caring for things more. And it definitely did for me, like, I mean, when we were locked down, all I had was outdoors, all we had was to go outside and be in nature that was like, if you were lucky enough to not be sick, or, you know, that was all you had was to go out and be outside. And so it made me appreciate our planet and nature that much more, I think and same with a lot of other people. And just like the little things in life, because life seems so fragile at that point as it still does. So it’s like I think it made a lot of people just take stock of like, what they want to do with their time and how they want to spend their years on this planet, at least definitely for me. And so I’ve like just made a really conscious decision to just be like, I’m only going to do things that I fully believe in now because life is too short.

Amanda

The entire way I’ve used my life and relationships and my job and I mean, everything around me totally changed. And, you know, I I’ve talked on previous episodes about how I was fearful that people would go through all of this and then come out the same on the other side. And I’m actually excited to see that like, here it is. It’s you know, 2022 is it 2022 Yeah. And we’re like halfway through it, and people have been changed for the better. Oh, totally.

Isabel

Yeah, I think overall I think it’s done better for like a Everyone’s got a sense of community, which is like, you know, obviously a silver lining from an really tragic and unprecedented and terrifying situation. But it’s like we you know, it did bring us together.

Amanda

Yeah, I think so too. So you reached out to me after I posted on Instagram about brands copying smaller brands. Yeah. Which is like I swear every day. One that I’m hearing about oh, yeah, two or three. Yeah. And you reach out and you’re like, I have a lot of experience. Yeah, totally. Tell me why you saw that post. And you wanted to reach out?

Isabel

Yeah. So I mean, not only has this happened to me personally, a few times in my professional career, but I’ve also like in your posts, you shared about being on the other side of it. And being in those corporate meetings, where everything hanging on the wall is stolen from a small brand, and they want you to copy it. And I’ve like, been in those same types of meetings, and it’s just such a, I mean, it really is a mindfuck. It’s really insane. And I just remember feeling so crazy in those situations. And so it’s just something that now that I do have my own small brand, again, I’m extremely passionate about.

Amanda

It’s hard for me to like, even imagine because like, Okay, so as a buyer, I was appalled by it from an ethical person. Yeah, right. Yep. But you’re an you’re a designer, right? Yeah. Like to steal someone else’s art is just next slide.

Isabel

No. Crazy. It’s really insane. It’s

Amanda

and yeah, and for it to be like, Oh, no, we don’t want you to go use your creativity here and your talent. Just copy this thing. I mean, I’m not kidding. Like, I have a specific memory of being in a meeting for sweater. 2019, early 20s. Going in. Every sample in the wall. I was like, wow, everything on the wall looks like really cute. Like, I’m excited. The brands really taken different. Yeah, no, literally, every single sample on the wall was a bought sample. It’s not a it’s something that they bought it. And they’re going to cotton and my experience on this. And I’ve talked to like tons of other people who are designers and buyers. It’s like the same story, even when we all worked in completely different places, right? Is that someone brings you the sample someone who’s higher up in the company, right? And I you know, we got to stop calling them samples, because these are just, oh, they’re articles. Yeah. Right. They’re not

Isabel

samples once they come in the door of whoever. But it’s like, it’s so we’re fully after on the shelf?

Amanda

Totally. Totally. So they’ll bring the product or the garment and put it on your desk and say like, I want that. Yeah. And you’re like, okay, great, but like, we have to change it. Yeah. Like, what is it that you like about it? Do you like the stitch? Do you like color? Sleeve? Like, what is it that we like, want to solidify? And what we’re going to use, like, if we’re going to use this as inspiration. Yeah. And they’ll be like, I don’t know, I just like really like it and

Isabel

it’s like gonna say in every creative director will just say, I just like it, I just like it.

Amanda

Right, exactly. So you’re like, okay, like, we’re gonna set we’re, you know, we’re gonna sit down and like, you know, take this as inspiration and turn into something else the sample comes in. This is an actual sample that was inspired by this item. And I am not exaggerating, when I say 100% of the time, the same person who put that original garment on your desk, sees the sample and is like, No, I want it to be more like the original.

Isabel

Yes. Absolutely. Every freaking time.

Amanda

Every time every time every time. Yeah. And you’re like, okay, but like, in what way like in the color and the city was No, no, I just want it to be other garments. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And like, and I think, you know, I can say this out loud. And like, you know, I know that it’s super ethically wrong. Have I been forced to do this stuff in my career? Absolutely. Because it comes down to you either do this, or you lose your job. Exactly. And that the reality is that no one gets rich working in Oh, no, no, no. Right. So like, you need that job. Like I lived paycheck to paycheck for most of my career. Oh, yeah,

Isabel

absolutely. No, it’s so funny. I just DM a friend whose brand was ripped off well, she just saw this other brand launch something yesterday that ripped off one of her brands. And I DM her and I said the devil works hard but underpaid designers at large shitty companies work harder, unfortunately. Um, so like, it’s just how it is these people? I mean, like, yeah, you’re getting like under $50,000 a year to be like a designer or an associate designer and assistant designer, and you’re just essentially sitting there being asked at like to copy things and find things to copy. I mean, I cannot tell you how like, oh my gosh, just the extent of it is really like insane people the they order these samples, really products as we’re now calling them and they’ve shipped them off to their factories in China, India, whatever and literally have them just remake it. Stitch for Stitch finish for finish trim for trim with no questions asked. And then it’s that’s how it’s just so unreal to me that that’s how, I don’t know, just like it’s just gotten off for so long I was taught I mean, I don’t know, I remember my senior year at Parsons, they made us do like a business seminar, because they’re all like, well, if you want to have your own brand one day, you need to know business. And of course, I was like, I should have taken five business seminars, I only took like, a half a year one because that was all there was required, of course, but um, I remember them saying like, in fashion law, you have to change something one to three times to make it your own. So whenever like a creative director or a boss would give me something to knock off that would be in my head. And I’d be like, well, if I am going to do this, like because I’m being paid to freakin do this, I need to at least change it one to three times so that I know it’s like, slightly ethically fashion law. Okay, whichever, but that’s even still kind of BS, you know? So it’s just I mean, and then as you said, they always come back. No, I want it more like this and more like this. And then there’s the other thing of just like, I don’t know, people copying vintage garments and feeling like that makes it more okay. And I don’t really understand why that’s a thing. But it’s like, I don’t know, I know several brands who, like have said, like, it’s okay, it’s vintage. Like, you can’t find it anymore. Like, okay, but someone’s still like, designed it.

Amanda

Oh, yeah, like that. The vintage the vintage claw is like I, I mean, I’ve lived in that for so long. I like almost believe it’s, I know, I know that it’s based in. But it’s totally true. Like I, I you know, one of the companies I work for a Nasty Gal, which is now owned by boo hoo, and is a totally different brand. But when I worked for them, you know, we were based in LA, we had a pretty large in house design team and line of design product. And I’m gonna tell you, it was all really cool. But 50% of it was copied vintage, and the other 50% was copied runway. And like it was all really cool. Like I said, but I mean, it was it was it had to be hard to be a designer. Yeah. You know what, I

Isabel

totally know, I’ve worked at very similar companies to that. And yeah, it’s very, it’s difficult because it’s like, you’re you’re like, predicting trends with like using that runway inspiration. But you’re also like mass marketing it and you’re also supposed to be copying what’s already trendy. And it’s a weird, yeah, it’s a weird kind of way to try and fit in to being a designer and ultimately made me feel not like a designer at all.

Amanda

Yeah, I’m sure like I said, you have a creative job. And then you don’t get to do that. I mean, even a lot of the places that I’ve worked, depending on the size of the company, or like the categories I were working on, maybe didn’t have a designer and so it was up to me as the buyer to also create the product.

Isabel

Oh, yeah, I’ve worked with buyers like that very closely. Like where they’re telling me what to design.

Amanda

Right. Right. Right. And I specifically remember like, early in my career, I worked for a big fast fashion brand. And you want to talk about like being paid not paid at all. I want to say I was paid $34,000 a year. Oh my god. Yeah. Salary job, where I managed millions of dollars in.

Isabel

Exactly. That was the thing. Oh, like me,

Amanda

right. And I like I would pay my rent and my other bills for the month. And I’d be like, okay, my budget for the rest of the month is I have $15 a day to spend on food and public transportation. Oh, then I’m gonna go into work. And I’m going to write POS for like, 100,000. I know. Anyway, so there we go. It was an accessories. And so we didn’t have a design team. So we had to develop all the product ourselves. My boss, the way she looked at it is we should buy stuff and copy it. And she would always be like, Amanda, I just don’t think you’re very creative. Because you’re not copying a lot of stuff. Like she was like, I just don’t know, if you’re a creative person. You don’t seem to like developing products. And I was like, listen, I like inventing new products. Yeah, I don’t like going to LA going to Marc Jacobs Yeah, buying something and bringing it back to the office and copying it, which is like what you want me to do. And over time, I realized like it was holding back my career at that company that I was unwilling to just copy things. Yeah. And I eventually left that was like one of the reasons I left that job because yeah, I just, I can’t sacrifice my ethics to also not even be able to really afford food.

Isabel

Absolutely. Absolutely. No, I feel the same way. That’s essentially why I’ve like either left or been let go from every job because I will not like adhere to that crap. And like, I just, I can’t like crushes my soul in a way that I just became like, a shitty co worker in some of those places. You know what I mean? And I tell I didn’t want to be there. And it’s like, yeah, I don’t want to be here. So

Amanda

yeah, and I think like,

Isabel

I’m very much a designer in that way. I’m like I’m showing I’m all my cards are on my face. You know what

Amanda

Oh, I feel totally. And I think for the people who are doing that, it’s like, like the designers and buyers like I don’t judge them because like they need a paycheck. Yeah. And absolutely, they’ve been doing it for so long. Like, it just I don’t know, it gets normalized in their minds because they also need to exist. And the reality is like, this industry is so small, that if you work at one place, and they’re like, Amanda is unwilling to copy things, I guess she’s not creative. That’s gonna stay in your way of getting jobs out there. Oh,

Isabel

1,000%, especially in like, I mean, like in America, and because you have like New York or LA basically, which they’re both so small. industries are so small here. And then you have like a little bit of like, Chicago, Miami, but that’s very small communities, too. So it’s, yeah, you’re you have to, you have to either like drink the Kool Aid or get out and do your own thing. That’s really the options or just like, Be okay with being really, really unhappy with what you do everyday, which some people can do. And like I, you know, there’s a level of respect that I give to that. But I personally am too emotional for that.

Amanda

Yeah, yeah. It’s really hard. I mean, I think for me, like, I was locked into this really unethical industry for so long. And every time I would try to get out there was just nowhere else to go. Yeah, people would be like, Why are you leaving fashion? Right? Or you don’t really want to leave fashion, you’re going to take this job and then leave and go back to fashion like, no, totally what people would throw my way. And so I felt really trapped. Absolutely. And for me, the the pandemic and losing my job, was a great way for me be like, Oh, I’m forced into like, leaving this like, this is incredible.

Isabel

saying No, exactly. I like felt this huge level of relief. It was like when you like have like a shitty breakup or something. And you’re like, I know that, like you, you thought you’d feel sad, but you’re like, I’m actually feeling awesome about this. But like, yeah, it was so like that. Like, I just was like, Oh, I just got fired, but also half the company did and also, I’m getting these like unemployment checks. And I think I can do something with this. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Get all just kind of worked out. And at the time, you know, which is like randomly lucky for I think, I think Bastion people, I’ve heard this story more than other industries, honestly, though.

Amanda

I do. I do. I think that a lot of people were glad to be laid off, even if they didn’t realize it at the time. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, talk about an industry where so many people are struggling with like, substance abuse problems. Health problems. Yep. Eating Disorders. I could go on and on. Oh, yeah. A lot of it stems from the pace and the stress and the toxic environment.

Isabel

Totally. It really does. It really does. Right? Absolutely.

Amanda

I started like, I don’t know, there are times where I’ll get angry at myself. Because I’ll be like, Why did you put up with that job for that shitty boss? And it’s like, I didn’t have a choice. Totally. No. And I want people to, like, hear us talk about these things, and realize that they do have a choice. Yeah, absolutely time fresh to expect a better a better environment.

Isabel

I totally agree. I totally agree. And there’s enough companies even like bigger companies out here, like, like making a conscious decision to do better. I mean, you just really have to pay attention to like, where you put your money, because if you put it in the right places, these companies that are doing better will start to outnumber the ones that aren’t. And it’s like, you know, it’s gonna be a slow burn, but it’s like, yeah, it’s definitely time to like, you know, put our time and money elsewhere, I think, and I try to encourage friends that are still you know, in job situations, like that look like there is more on the other side, you know, just get a little money in savings, and you can you can do something else, I promise. You know, it’s scary. And it’s so scary not having a paycheck when you’re used to that for so long. But um, I don’t know, I’m one of those people where I’d rather like be a little bit stressed about money, then be very depressed at my job. But that’s again, me personally.

Amanda

Yeah, it’s true. It’s true, but it takes you a while sometimes to get there.

Isabel

Oh, it took me years to get there. Absolutely. And it took me getting fired against my will. So like, in the pandemic, in the pandemic, when there was no other job to have. And I had to figure that out that like, you know, it’s not so bad. My lights didn’t get turned off. I figured it out. And we’re on the other side of it. But yeah, it took years to get there. Absolutely. And it also took me like working my entire 20s and now being like kind of feeling more confident, you know, quote unquote, grown up now. Yeah,

Amanda

totally. Um, So has anyone tried to copy you?

Isabel

Oh, my gosh, so my most recent Yeah, my most recent situation was Princess Polly. Everyone’s favorite. Everyone’s favorite. They basically completely ripped off my best selling dress. So I think it was like before festival season, it seemed like it was like a festival announcement and I don’t know if someone’s like sent me a screenshot there. Email Marketing posts whatever and was like this is your dress like whatever like fuck that fashion and I was like yes thank you this is my dress and basically I like put a call to action on my Instagram and just like told all my followers like let’s spam them let’s call them out let’s email them let’s like do something until they take it down and within like 48 hours the dress was off their website why me? Yeah, we got like 1000s of messages off to them I think by the end of like the comments on the photo and the posts were like it was literally 1000s Like they were getting spammed like crazy shout out to my super loyal following I love all of y’all.

Amanda

That raises my next question, like a perfect segue, which is, you know, a lot of followers listeners to podcast people have conversations with or like whether they’re designers themselves or just contests. Customers are like, I don’t know what to do if this happens to me or it has happened, right? What should I do? What should I do as a customer when I see this happening, and I think it’s a really tough position to be in because most likely you are not Can we just take them to know when anything in any reasonable? Absolutely not? No, it will be like, drain you of money. And the any if you do win any, any settlement is gonna be years down the road, right?

Isabel

Oh, and I don’t know if you’ve ever sued somebody but it’s emotionally draining as it’s not fun.

Amanda

Totally, totally. And so my feeling on this is, it’s better to take it to social media, because that’s where you like, it’s, it’s surprising. I mean, it’s not surprising to me as someone who has worked on the other side of the business. But that is how you get that stuff pulled down, and you start to chip away at their brand reputation. Absolutely. And I think that’s really important. Like, I look at someone like Princess Polly, which to me is like garbage clothes, literally, no, but I look at them. And I’m like, okay, so they’re making like, 80% mark off that dress that they’re selling for $54, they probably paid about $8 for it, like it’s not going to hold up, you know, there’s all kinds of exploitation and waste attached to it. It’s interesting that like a brand like that would care about their reputation, since they are turning out product that is like not getting

Isabel

I thought so. I know. I know, I thought the same. But they do. Because like, they know that, like if I also I think took it on tick tock as well. Like, I think I posted a tick tock too. So I think they knew that like if they you know, they know that like people will come for them in a big way. And that does affect their customer base, because people are starting to call them out, that’s for sure.

Amanda

For sure. I think that people are becoming more and more aware of this. And like you and I were talking about people, we’ve been changed by the past few years. And I think we’re like finally saying like, hey, it’s not enough for stuff to be cheap. And fun. There needs to be integrity attached to it. Absolutely even explained she in 1%. But I know like, you know, speaking of someone who gets called out, it seems like every day for stealing from someone. But I do think like we need to like not give up and support other designers and brands when they’re being copied as well. Because the more totally hear that Princess Polly or shin or forever 21 Or whoever copy the more damage is their business and sort of forces some change for them. In a way. Oh, yeah, definitely taking them to court at this point will not like there’s a gazillion law against she and right now. And like Oh yeah, it’s not changing anything.

Isabel

I mean, I just remember hearing about like, it took like Marc Jacobs like 10 years to get money from Forever. 21 That’s, like, I’m not gonna get shit from them. But it’s like, yeah, I can like have 1000s of comments spanning their meant spamming their mentions for a few days. And like, you know, that definitely makes them look not great in the eyes of Instagrams meat like world which they definitely care about. Definitely care about. It has been low key shaking in their boots. I think like, I think that’s the shit that they have meetings about that they don’t know how to fix, because that’s what they base their entire business on is copying other people.

Amanda

Yeah, it’s an interesting business model. Right? Like, how do you how do you where’s

Isabel

the longevity? Yeah, I know. Where’s the Yeah, like, what how I mean, but they don’t care. They’re not they’re just in for the money they can make now. I mean, I think

Amanda

that’s what I think too. Yeah. And I think like, it’s important to call out that the launch longevity in that business model, isn’t there? If we as customers, hold them accountable? By not absolutely not buying from them? That’s the fastest way to shorten the lifespan of a business and call exactly out when we see this stuff happening. So other people see it and stop shopping for them like yes, it feels super paralyzing. When you are the artist that’s copied. It seems super paralyzing when you are a fan of that artists or designer who’s copied totally How am I gonna fight Princess Polly or Shan Right? Like the reality is like, with a critical mass of people, meaning everyone being on board with the same thing we actually do make change in that area. And it can sometimes absolutely really fast like your dress, for example.

Isabel

Yeah, no, exactly. I totally agree. I was actually really shocked and like, obviously happily surprised that it got taken down so quickly. I was like, wow, someone’s definitely paying attention to this. They know that they’re guilty, obviously. And they don’t definitely know. Yeah, they fully know because they also like copied the photo shoot that like I had a girl that’s like a big YouTuber had bought one of the dresses and she took these amazing pictures with like a gorgeous vintage car and the dress. It was so cool. And the pictures that they posted was like literally a girl and I like vintage droptop gorgeous car. Like it was the same vibe. I was like, okay, they’re fully just taking they just have my Instagram on their mood board which happens all the time as we know so

Amanda

yeah, totally. And I think like another thing to call out what I have. I mentioned a lot on the podcast is like it when there’s smoke there’s by or so if, if Princess Polly for example is copying your work and your photoshoot guess what else they’re doing? They’re being real shitty to the people who work for them. Oh, right so give it a fuck about what oh no or right in the world because stealing from other creatives is really unethical if that’s just a part of your doing business of doing business like if you’re already

Isabel

not, that’s not really their business model. Yeah. To being unethical. Right. Yeah, exactly. And I think

Amanda

that’s another like, really important thing to call out. Like, you know, she and has been like, trying to make a play into sustainability, which I feel like they do owe the planet and its people reparations. So if they want to dump money, yeah, I’m excited for it, but I’m not. Okay. Well, now she is off the hook for college

Isabel

like yeah, I’m not gonna order from them now. Like, I’m not like, Oh, cool. Let me like order those no looking at like, yeah, no, it’s still like a big no, like, they’re awful. But yeah, I feel you. It’s like, yeah, dump money at something good. You definitely owe the planet and people reparations, but it’s like, are they? Are they going to change their ways? Really? Yeah, totally.

Amanda

Another thing that I have been seeing happening a lot on social media, and I would love to hear your perspective on this is, and like, I’m also gonna preface this by saying I have friends who have experienced this firsthand in the past. Is their small designers, their small brands, they’re being copied by other small brands and small designers. And I wonder if you have experienced that yourself or Yes. Okay.

Isabel

Yes, I have seen that. Absolutely. Yeah, it’s really weird. I think that it’s because like, a lot of people maybe like, like me that have the small brands worked for people like I did. And that’s maybe all they know how to do, sadly. And then they randomly will get like the funding or the opportunity to have a brand when maybe they’re not the best person to be doing it. Because they’re just copying other people’s stuff. And then all of a sudden, they’re a small brand blowing up doing this and I’m like, Oh, that’s my fabric or that’s my this or you know, it’s just yeah, I think it’s it’s sadly had really a trickle down nature of the industry thing at this point.

Amanda

I think it is. I think, you know, I was having conversation with someone recently. About how

Isabel

Yes, yes. Totally. Oh, yeah. Totally. Absolutely. Right, right. It’s like, yeah, say that to Yeah, I know. I, I’ve seen so much of that sentiment, too. And it’s like, Okay, try having someone charging more like the thing with my dress is that I was charging like $38 for it. And they were charging 55 for it. That’s the end. It’s like a cute like, going out, like, clubby dress. Like I think I’ve upped my price now to like, 44 Maybe because I had to find a new fabric. person for what’s it called fabric distributor, I had to find more of the fabric. So the price I upped the price a little bit since then. But Princess Polly was literally charging 55 for it. I think it was 37 on my website at the time, like how dare the audacity and mine was made, like, by a family owned factory that like I’m close friends with the owner of in downtown LA, like in very small batch, like there was like 35 of them made. And I managed to have less of a profit I I’m not concerned about a profit margin in the same way they are. I’m just like, trying to make my stuff accessible. So I’m like, $37 is fair, you know, let’s do it. And meanwhile, they’re charging 55 for a crappier, like, mass produced version.

Amanda

Yeah, I mean, I think that’s a rare example of when the fast fashion version is more expensive. Because I see a lot of like, you know, thinking of like, for example, I’m a huge fan of selkie Yeah, I don’t buy a lot of secondhand selkie but like, I have several. Oh, I love her stuff. And I like I A they’re like my favorite thing to wear, right? So I’m, I’m in this Facebook group for people who are selling they’re sucking their selkie though, right? Okay, these people are mega fans, and they’re very loyal to this brand. And I have. I have mixed feelings about the brand as a whole, but I really liked the clothes. And sometimes they’ll come in there and be like, Hey, I just bought all these knockoff silky dresses. From shin. Oh my god, they’re always like, $30 it’s like shocking, but when you look at them side by side, you’re like, Yeah, that’s the $30 Yeah, exactly. Right. But it’s interesting. I’ll see someone be like, you know, I think it’s really unethical to buy copied stuff from Shan and then that’ll be like one person. And then like, 20 people are like, Yeah, but it’s like, way more affordable. And like, you are so greedy. We can all have these dresses. And we went buy them from Cheyenne. And I’m like, you know, it’s like, that’s the it’s not like she and is like Robin Hood stealing

Isabel

from the rich. Exactly. No, they’re not like doing it for the people. Like I don’t think I think that’s what people some people that do still support them think like, yeah, they’re out here like doing it for the bacon cute clothes that everyone can afford. It’s good. It’s good.

Amanda

I every time I post about she and I will get messages from people who were like, you’re obviously a really privileged white woman who doesn’t understand that she and his speaking style accessible to more people. And I’m like, Whoa, I really know where to begin with that.

Isabel

I know. I know. It’s a lot to unpack there. Yeah, for sure. No.

Amanda

Yeah, I there.

Isabel

There definitely is privileged and being able to shop sustainably but that doesn’t mean you have to go to Shenzhen otherwise, like, I think that’s my thing.

Amanda

I don’t know. No, I agree. I do think that a lot of you know, I this is something I’ve been thinking about a lot lately on a variety of issues is the way we as humans, look at what’s right or wrong and process information, anything that we just like, it’s probably some like part of our like, alligator brain, where we want things to be one or the other. Totally no range or things can’t be complex in terms of the decisions we make, right? It’s either shin or expensive, sustainable fashion. Right, right. Like I know, it’s like so much more complicated that and like, absolutely buy stuff from xi and that’s totally fine. But like, you don’t need 20 dresses from Shin because unfortunately, like what I see in this silky Facebook group is people who bought

Isabel

so many Exactly. And then why do you don’t need those? You’re not going to wear them all. Like there’s just literally no need for that. Yeah, exactly. And the influencer halls have like 300 items from them, like literally like that stuff. That’s the problem. The overconsumption is the problem like, yeah, I don’t have a problem with accessible clothing and accessible price point. I work really hard to make my price points accessible, so people can just come on over to my webs. They want some sustainable stuff. That’s not overpriced. You know, I mean, I think there are more people like my brand trying to do that. You just have to know where to look, which is not easy, but few and far between, but we’re out there.

Amanda

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Isabel

But yeah, it’s definitely a weird part of that whole problem. It is.

Amanda

It’s got so many layers. I’m sure that when you saw Princess Polly copying you, you felt like what can I even do here at this mountain that I can’t climb? But look,

Isabel

yep, it works. Oh, exactly. No, it totally worked. It’s funny, because I’ve also seen the dress on Amazon. And that, that moreso made me depressed because I’m like that I can’t do anything about Yeah, like there’s no way that is like the kind of that’s just not going away. Because once it’s in that as you know, once it’s in that fast fashion cycle of being at shin or princess Polly it’s on Aliexpress with 1000s of factories making it it’s true. It’s that’s just how that model works.

Amanda

It totally does. I mean, I I will periodically go on to Amazon to look at their clothing because I get a lot of like, I don’t know if you use your Apple news apps, but I get a lot of like news stories that are really just ways to get you to buy things it’ll be like the best 10 dresses on Amazon right now.

Isabel

Oh, I get a lot of Instagram fashion. I mean Amazon fashion.

Amanda

Yeah, absolutely. And what will happen is I’ll be like wow, that’s really interesting because I pretty sure that like that print I recognize that’s like from spell like yeah, Amazon vendors love to copy spell or it’ll be like some other brand where I’m like, Oh, I I know that print I’ve seen it somewhere else for like $300 Like, what’s the deal? Who is this? And it’s it’s always the same set of vendors, but they’re like, oh yeah 100% copies from print. Oh, yes. silhouette of, I mean, the fabric and the fit No, but like everything else and like they’re flagrant and I think about like spell being an example because I see their prints. being copied more than anybody else’s on there. I agree. I’ve seen that right. And I am always like, what does it feel like to be them? Because I will say, like, oh my gosh, like five years ago, four years ago, something like that. I five years ago, I guess I was working for like what was literally my worst job ever. The irony of the whole thing is like the creative director would bring stuff, sit it on my desk and asked me to copy it. Of course, yeah, right. Time we had like a T shirt and a phrase that we were really well known for. And it was like a basic black T shirt with white print or white t shirt, black print. And, like on I’m gonna be really honest and say like, selling this t shirt was like fueling our business like everything. Yeah, we did. We were able to do because of these T shirts, sales. And first we forever 21 copied us. And we were able to shut that down pretty fast. Like we had the money to the lawyer and take care of it. But yeah, that’s when it started popping up all over Amazon. Yeah. And ever, we’d report like 10 a week and 20 would pop up the next week. I know how it is. And I feel like with spell, for example, they must have just been like, Yeah, fuck it.

Isabel

Yeah, they’re like, there’s nothing we can do. We just need to keep making our own money at this. Yeah, exactly. Sure. They’re doing well. But it’s like, yeah, it’s insane. There’s nothing I can do when it’s that deep in that system.

Amanda

And so when people are like, I don’t understand why this this designer, this artists got upset about this. I’m like, You don’t understand. This is just the beginning of it.

Isabel

Exactly. No, exactly. And the other thing about Amazon that’s so weird. And Ally express is that they’ll use photos from people’s Instagrams, like, I’ve had influencers that I’ve either gifted to or they’ve bought stuff from me, hit me up and be like, Look at this picture of me in your dress on someone else’s website. Oh, my God, like they literally use that’s like you can always tell on Amazon because it’s like a zoomed in. They’re not showing the face. And it’s just like the body of a random influencer. And it’s so insane because they’re not even showing you the products that they’re shipping. It’s just like, yeah, it’s a whole mess. And it’s just such a farce. I just want people to understand that. It’s like not real clothes. It’s like plastic fallacies. It’s like, I don’t know, it’s very, it’s weird.

Amanda

It’s so weird. I remember back at Nasty Gal like in our peak heyday. This website appeared in Australia. That was an exact copy of the Nasty Gal website. Except you had like a different name. Oh my god, like sassy girl. Yeah, but like, same font, same design of the website. Wow, all of our product photos.

Isabel

Oh, my God.

Amanda

I was I kept saying like, I kinda want us to order from it. Right What we got because in the early days of Cheyenne, and I’m talking as as recently as like, 2020 Yeah, early 2020. A lot of she and clothes were like, kind of a joke on the internet. Totally. Like, I ordered this. Here’s the picture from the website. Oh, yeah. God, yes. And I would laugh at them because I was like, Oh, this is something I know way too well, as a buyer when you are being asked to copy something by your boss, and they don’t have a they don’t even have the actual garment. They’re like, here’s a photo from a magazine or a Tumblr or something. Yes, send it off. And so someone’s trying to recreate something from a photo it’s like playing visual telephone. Yes. never works out. Oh, and that’s what she used to be famous. Absolutely. It’s like wishes still you still get that on? Well, yes, yes,

Isabel

exactly. No, that’s exactly what it ended like. They would always do these extravagant like a love Chuck fancy dress. It’s like why are you are selkie dry? No. Like it’s like why are you even trying these are stuff that’s lower than that brand poster girl to that was doing those relate those mesh like skin tight cut out looks that everyone’s wearing that was like those are those are nothing custom knitted on a knitting machine. And then they’re just like, selling these like things that look like pantyhose with fringe sewn on them on Amazon. How is this even been taken? Seriously, but I really think that like, the influencer like whole thing is what shifted that it has to be.

Amanda

Yeah, I think so too. I think that we reached a point. I mean, like fast fashion already sort of like, reduced our expectations. Yeah. Like, I definitely remember a turning point in my mind where we’re only being able to wear a dress twice, because then the zipper broke. Didn’t bother me anymore. Yeah, but it definitely would have been like, devastating before that. And it was sort of this like, well, it’s just forever 21 Like, what do you expect? Exactly. And like that stuff was really high quality in terms of where we are right. Oh, yeah. Talk about like, a lot of these clothes on Amazon that are like random. I hesitate to call them brands. Yeah. Oh, no, they’re not doing any work around branding, right. Oh, but like there’s like The original fast fashion was like leaps and bounds in terms ahead of that in terms of quality. And so I agree

Isabel

and like that’s why Zara has always been so popular because it’s knockoffs that are really good quality. Like you could get like a knockoff Alexander Wang person like 2010 at Zara that would last you a year or two like, and, and it looks just like Alexander Wang one. You’d be like, Okay, why not? Like,

Amanda

yeah, it’s true. It’s true. And at that point, I feel like to like the fat, like, forever 21 aside, like looking at someone like Zara, it was really about like, high fashion, knockoffs, right, which everybody was like, Oh, it is what it is. Right? That’s what fashion has been for a long time, right. But somewhere along the line, it turned into this like feedback loop of like, fast fashion brands copying fast fashion. Yes. And so like it just got crappier and crappier. And as consumers, we were like, well, it’s even cheaper. And I’m buying 25th Yeah, does it? We don’t care anymore. And I don’t know how we untangle that because I think, you know, people are starting more and more people, but unfortunately, not all people. Yeah. Right, are starting to understand that. Like, these clothes aren’t that great. They’re bad for the plan, right? They’re designed to be shitty. Yeah, basic. Yeah. And people are exploited and harmed along the way. And on top of all that, like designers and artists lose their livelihood by having their ideas flagrantly stolen with no repercussions. Exactly.

Isabel

Totally. No, I agree.

Amanda

I see people reselling, she dresses as selkie on Depop and Poshmark.

Isabel

Oh my gosh, that’s crazy. You know,

Amanda

I know how you’re gonna

Isabel

get away with that.

Amanda

I mean, it’s, it’ll be like, Selkie and the subject, but then you go and it’s not really sucky. It’s from shiana. And I’m like, Oh, guys, it was obvious. It wasn’t so right. I totally know. With some of these, like, like, Amazon knockoff stuff, like spell for example, like you’re gonna or I saw a copy of a live shack fancy dress that looks pretty convincing, at least on Amazon. I don’t know what the reality was. You could easily misrepresent that.

Isabel

Oh, yeah. 100%. That’s the other thing too. Is that like, it’s giving people a misrepresentation of these brands? And which is like really not okay, to people that care about what they’re doing? Yeah, that’s a whole, like, ethical principles thing right there.

Amanda

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I just think that like we need to, as humans, like, think about our ethics. Absolutely. And that, like, I don’t want to sacrifice my ethics, I can get a box of 20 things for 100.

Isabel

Right. No, I totally agree with you. I think it’s just about getting more people to see it that way. And understand, I don’t know, there’s just better ways to shop.

Amanda

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. There

Isabel

are definitely better ways to shop. I mean, it’s crazy. And now there’s this whole thing of like, all the fast fashion ending up in thrift stores, which is a whole other thing, where it’s like, now you go thrifting and all you find is Shi N. I mean, it’s insane.

Amanda

So much Shin in the thrift stores, right?

Isabel

It’s not and it’s because people buy it, and they don’t want it and so they probably give it away. And yeah,

Amanda

yeah, this year. We’ve seen, like, critical mass of Shan in the throat. Oh, yeah. Like I ever before. Like, even last year, it’d be like, here and there. But now it’s like, most of what I see.

Isabel

I agree. Like I have not in Los Angeles. It’s been I’ve just been shopping for vintage clothes at antique mall situations more so because thrift stores are washed. I mean, it’s like a mess. It’s all fast fashion. Yeah, it’s terrible. It’s really crazy. And it’s just, you know what, that’s not all gonna filter out through Goodwill or whatever. So it’s just going to end up being wasteful still.

Amanda

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Isabel

It’s just Yeah, it’s so gross. It’s just Yeah, it’s a huge problem with not a simple answer, as we’ve discussed, but it’s just, you know, we’re getting there. Slowly. Yeah.

Amanda

Yeah. And I think the more we can educate other people about this, the more they’ll get there, too. Because if it’s just a small group of us who are like, Oh, I’m buying less, you’re making more ethical decisions for myself, right? It has like a little bit of impact. But the reality is, if we’re ever gonna untangle or dismantle, I guess really is the right turn these larger companies that kind of get away they have like they operate with impunity, right? Yeah. The only way they’re going to face some consequences is if more and more people are operating the same way. Absolutely. In the same same mindset that we are and adopting the same sort of practices and beliefs. And I think, you know, we it’s just all about, like talking about it more. Yeah, loud about it.

Isabel

I agree. I totally agree and calling them out when they do it every single time no matter who it is. I mean, it’s just it’s an If already and enough things are changing in our society and shifting and pivoting, that, like this should be one of those things that maybe changes, you know, like, let’s maybe just do away with this. And you know, the level of copying, too, it’d be great if we could shift away from that from a design perspective for a lot of these companies, but I don’t know if that’ll ever happen.

Amanda

So do you have any advice for makers or designers who might be listening to this who have been recently copied by someone?

Isabel

Yeah, I would say I mean, kind of just like what we talked about, I wouldn’t stress or worry about trying to take legal action. I mean, at least immediately, I would just try and hit them, you know, where it hurts on social media and gather up your followers send out an email blast post on your stories, like, post hashtags, you know, get people riled up about it. I think the the days that I was posting that my story got more views than like ever before. And I was like, Whoa, I think it’s just cuz people were just sharing my story posts. Yeah. And, you know, they see Oh, drama, drama. So they go click on my profile. And look, they’re like, oh, what’s the new drama?

Amanda

Yeah, unfortunately. And both fortunately, people like drama. So yeah, this can be a really great like,

Isabel

it’s like a low key good marketing. I know. Yeah. I know, it’s true. And I don’t sell I had a couple, I did sell a few more of that dress, I still have the dress available in a different colorway. And it’s not on Prince’s call anymore. So you can only get it from me. And maybe Amazon if you look hard enough, but I mean, hopefully, just advice to other people. Hopefully, you know, it doesn’t happen to you too often. But I was just say, rally your troops as best you can when it does happen. And just try not to think about how much money they’re making off of your ideas, because that’s the part that will just make you mad. Yeah. Just try not to think about how much money they’re making. And just try and think about it from a positive perspective, like turning into something positive for your company, because you can’t get too wrapped up in the anger and the There’s no rhyme or reason. It’s just what they do. And you just have to let it go. And you know, try to hit them where it hurts and get them to stop selling it.

Amanda

You know, and they will, they will bear some financial repercussions if they have to pull a product off. Oh, yeah. Having worked for companies where this was some regular thing. Tell you that. Yeah. First we first we internally freak the fuck out, even though we should have seen it coming. Oh, yeah. And then we pull all the inventory from the stores, website or whatever. Yep. And what happens next is I’m not kidding when I say it sits somewhere in the warehouse for six months, or six years. Oh, yeah. Until someone figures out what to do with it. Which is usually it’s like donate it. Yeah,

Isabel

it’s gonna end up at a thrift store or something. Yeah. Or like Marshalls in like Louisiana. Yeah. It’s just that that’s like, what pisses me off more is because I work hard to make zero waste products, and then they knock me off and all of this shit ends up in a landfill like, that’s what that’s like adding insult. And I remember when this happened, I literally posted about this, I was like, I’m not gonna not acknowledge the fact that like me, even calling them out is creating waste. Because now they won’t be able to sell this product that otherwise would have like ended up in homes where people wear them now it’s just gonna be the new landfill or like some random resale situation, like we were saying. And I’m like, That’s waste right there. And I hate that, like, that just shows Oh, it’s just like the circle of like, bad ethics. It’s just insane.

Amanda

It is it is. And I think you know, that’s a really good call out right. Like they’re the Reaper gods.

Isabel

That’s a problem. Yeah, yeah.

Amanda

I, like I said, worked for a lot of retailers. Basically, almost every job Not all jobs, but a big chunk of them. Were this was like, the how things operate. Yeah. Right. Like, like I said, it was like copy, copy, copy, like, not all the places I worked, but a big chunk. Yeah. And, you know, the other thing is like, okay, so we pull this product from the store, and you know, we’d ship it all back and it would just be like sitting in a pile somewhere. The other thing is that often and I can’t speak to say pretty Polly here, but or pot, whatever it

Isabel

is. Yeah, terrible. I know. I’m always like calling them whoever it’s awful name. Worst name ever. I’m like, Who is Paulie? Yes.

Amanda

But I you know, like often in this situation, they may have had enough their order of that dress already played. Yeah. Right. Because they were like this is going to be big. Yeah, stake in the ground. Yeah, there’s another like 5000 units being made over in China. Now no, they might already be made. So there’s gonna go to waste or the fabric was already bought. Now that fabric might go to the way it might have been cut, which means it’s like it’s just

Isabel

scraps. Exactly. I know. Totally. I’ve seen it happen to from behind the scenes. Yeah,

Amanda

yeah, exactly. And then factory workers, the people who made the Fabrice the trims all those people aren’t gonna get paid? No,

Isabel

because they are getting piecemeal. Yeah, I know. It’s awful. It’s literally awful.

Amanda

Awful. And I think that’s just another really important call out that, like, this behavior has repercussions beyond just

Isabel

stealing someone’s Exactly. And that’s why I that’s kind of like when it happened to me. What I really wanted to like get across was like, you know, like, this sucks that this happened to me and yet sucks that like they’re making money off something that I thought of, but like, what sucks more is that this just feeds to the system of BS and wastefulness and pollution and abuse of your workers and all of that stuff that I’m actively working to do the opposite of with my brand. So it just like really added insult to injury to me. And it was like emotional, like, I was just like, eff this, like, this is just, you know, I’m like now, something that I thought of is creating waste in the world. And that makes me feel crappy.

Amanda

Yeah. And once again, these are companies who know that this is what will play out. Oh, yeah. If they get caught stealing? Absolutely. Because it’s, it’s it’s no big deal.

Isabel

Exactly. They’re like, oh, we’ll throw away those cuts. It’s only 5000 units. It’s whatever, write it

Amanda

off. Yes, yes, or whatever, right. And like, I can’t speak to the size of Princess Polly’s business. And I will say that I’m pretty sure that they, and this is just as an outsider observer, that they probably got a big huge chunk of VC rounding in like 2020, early 2021. Because I saw on all of the like, fashion industry job boards that they were hiring, like,

Isabel

Wow, that’s so funny. Right?

Amanda

Yeah. So I would assume that to them. It’s like, Oh, if they even if they made 10,000 units of that dress that they probably they’re like, oh, they cost us $8. We’re burning $80,000? We don’t Yeah, exactly. Like they just don’t care don’t care, like that’s, and they don’t care that this polyester fabric is gonna end up in a landfill? No, they don’t. Because with MCs are not part of the equation at

Isabel

all, not even considered once. Exactly. And that’s like, I just, I don’t know, it’s yeah, that’s the problem to me with fast fashion right there. It’s just the ethics are not a part of the equation at all, regardless of anything else that anyone wants to say. I think that’s it. That’s the, you know, the Paramount point.

Amanda

Exactly, exactly. So no, I do know that someone’s gonna listen to this. And they’re gonna say, Well, if they were going to just destroy it anyway, I guess we should buy it. No, no, we should No, no. Listen, like, ultimately, then they’re gonna pass the burden of this crappy garment on to you. And yeah, it’s gonna end up in the landfill. But it’s like, we can’t reward this kind of behavior. Yeah. Yeah. I’m just operating without values at all. Exactly. I’m saying, we steal from artists, we don’t care if shit is crappy. We don’t care for you pay living wages, we don’t care if we’re wasting material. Exactly. No, like, we just, we just don’t care. Exactly. You can’t support it have to, we have to move away from that, like, listen, we all have had people in our lives that we’ve had to distance ourselves from, because they are bad. Right? Right. And it’s really hard. We got to distance these companies from us too, because they are bad for us. And a lot more.

Isabel

Exactly. It’s like, it is hard. I get it. And it’s like I you know, I have spent the past few years really trying to make better choices with my purchasing. And it’s really difficult. Like, it’s, I’m not going to act like it’s easy. And you know, overconsumption is a part of culture, unfortunately. And it’s really hard to shake. I mean, I think, I don’t know, it’s just gonna it takes time and effort, but just like, I don’t know, just like you want to, like, get in shape or like, read a book, because it’s good for you. This is good for everyone. So it’s worth the effort, I think, but it’s, you know, hard to get everyone on board with that.

Amanda

Yeah, absolutely. There’s a lot of changes that we all have to make. But unfortunately, like we can’t sit, sit around and wait for them to happen. We literally need to start the process ourselves. Yeah,

Isabel

totally. Absolutely. Like, like we’re saying, it’s just like making better personal choices with your shopping and you know, going from there even small things can make a difference. And yeah, I mean, it’s just too much of a problem and we’re really just like, bending over and letting them ruin our planet. Like it’s just, it’s not it’s not a mystery as to where the, you know, the issues are. It’s not a mystery that’s very clear. And so it’s just one of those things that Oh,

Amanda

yeah, yeah, it is it is, it’s time for a big change. Totally have to. It’s not going to be nothing is easy. Well, the past few years have been really hard. And good things are coming out of

Isabel

it. Exactly, exactly. And there really are more like sustainable options now more than ever. I mean, just for everyday living, not even in fashion, like I’ve started going to this place in my neighborhood that you can like refill bottles to get like dish soap or laundry detergent, whatever, I thought it was going to be like overpriced, because it’s all cute. And like hippie hipster looking on Instagram. I got like a whole thing of detergent, water filters, like dish soap, it was like literally $15 To get my months worth it. I was like, this is more affordable than buying single use plastic stuff like totally, there really are great sustainable options out there. You just have to look like there’s affordable, sustainable stuff. It’s just about making an effort to find it. And I really just plead with, you know, anyone who’s listening and kind of on the fence about, you know, I can’t afford to live sustainably to like try at least because I thought I couldn’t either. And I’ve been able to a little more.

Amanda

Yeah, well, I think that we have unfortunately been fed this idea for quite a while that sustainability is like premium and yeah. And save. It’s like goop or something. Right?

Isabel

Yeah. Or Erawan. Like getting your $20 Yeah, exactly.

Amanda

Yeah. Do you blame Erawan and Whole Foods? Yeah. Add goop and a lot of these sustainable brands for this luxury.

Isabel

Yeah, yeah. Making health a luxury health and like ethical business shouldn’t be a luxury.

Amanda

But the reality is, so I for years was working on a startup that was a zero waste grocery store. It’s cool. Yeah. Because everybody’s been having a lot of life changes. Yeah, you That’s so cool. It is way cheaper to buy and sell stuff in bulk. Yeah. Vegetables than it is to buy it fully package. The packaging is like 50 to 80% of the entire cost of anything you buy.

Isabel

Absolutely. Absolutely the same with clothing. A lot of the Yeah, the market, it’s more like you’re paying for like the brand’s marketing in the product. A lot of the time.

Amanda

Oh, my God, I think about this all the time, because one of the companies I worked for, I mean, I want to say we were doing about $20 million a year. Yeah. And we had maybe 10 office employees and another 10 retail employees. Oh, yeah. None of us had health insurance.

Isabel

Of course. Oh, I know, a company very much like it. Yeah. And

Amanda

it was like, Guys, you can afford this. But our marketing budget was fucking insane. Exactly.

Isabel

No, I know. That’s what you’re paying. I don’t think people don’t understand what they’re paying for with a lot of these, like, mid size successful brands like with these crazy like, why am I paying $160 for a pair of sweatpants? Well, it’s because you’re paying for their marketing team or their out external marketing team, or their marketing team in New York and London and LA. And their PR and their buyers and their showroom and yeah, right.

Amanda

And like all the free stuff they’re sending to influencers? Yeah,

Isabel

because the clothes don’t cost shit to make. I’ll tell you that right now. Even in LA like production. I mean, it doesn’t cost much to make clothes. It really doesn’t. So yeah, you’re paying for the name and the markup and everything that goes along with working in that company.

Amanda

Totally. I mean, I think outside of clothes. A really great example of this is Red Bull. So yeah, which of Red Bulls disgusting, by the way. Sorry, everyone. I’ve had enough Red Bull and vodkas. Like early in my 20s Selassie man,

Isabel

but I can’t stand the smell of it even die.

Amanda

Triggering, right? Yeah. So at one of my jobs, our CEO was somehow on some like, I don’t know, like Red Bull influencers list. Yeah. And so we would get these absurd packages from Red Bull. Like, easily, the shipping alone was probably $50. And it would be like, this elaborate box with special cutouts, and we’d open it and there’d be like five different flavors on like, Red Bull in there and like confetti and all the swag and all the stuff and I was like, that’s what you’re fucking paying for when you pay $4 Yes and of Red

Isabel

Bull is for them to send this to Pete random folks like this. Yes. Yeah, it’s

Amanda

so so Red Bull gross. Just wanted to say it again.

Isabel

is so gross. I and they I mean yeah, I they do a lot with their marketing in general. I mean, they between like the Flugtag racing and then like, oh my god, Red Bull Music Academy and like they like really pumped money. That’s 100% what you’re paying for it was Red Bull. That was a great Oh, yeah, it was a great example.

Amanda

Yeah, I would say probably like of their annual budget. 5% is actual making. No Yeah. Red Bull right making. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It’s really crazy. I mean, soda, athletic shoes, all these things. Like where the brand presence is so huge. Yeah. And involved in so many things. When you buy something from those companies, whether it’s like a hear of secrets from Nike, or a bottle of Coca Cola? Yep, what you’re really paying for is advertising with a splash of beverage,

Isabel

you know, totally no 100% and even like, I mean, I think even with like midsize fashion brands that holds true like if these if brands have enough to like give enough money and product to like gift and like and or get celebrities like wearing their stuff, like that’s what you’re paying for, like again with these like, you’ll see this brand was like 75,000 followers, but then their sweat pants are $220 and the hoodies 160 or something you’re like, why? How are they getting $400 for a sweat suit, but it’s like, oh, because Hailey Bieber’s wearing it and whatever, but it’s like you’re just paying for the fact that she also wore that or like Kendall walrus sweatshirt, like that’s such a thing and like, the PR packaging is like another sustainability thing that I think about all the time because if you ever look at like any of the Kardashians stories and just see how many packages they open up, like in a week, and just how much packaging goes into those freaking packet, I mean, it’s like they’ll get a box with fresh flowers on the top and then it’ll have like chocolate covered strawberries and then a box that you break open with a hammer and then inside of it is a card with it you open and then a jack in the box pops out and gives you a lollipop. And then there’s a song inside the lollipop like that’s really the shit that the product

Amanda

product is the song Yeah, it’s ridiculous. And I think these are great things for us to be asking brands and calling them out for if you see something like that on what is the deal? Like what’s the fuck, man? Guess what? You the customer? You paid for that? Exactly. It’s gonna go in the landfill?

Isabel

Totally. Absolutely. Oh my god. No, I know I kind of when I was first kind of relaunching my brand a few years ago, I was doing more influencer gifting now I’ve really gotten kind of a group of people that I like to work with, where it’s not so much like gifting is it’s more just like, you know, we work together. But in the beginning, I didn’t really know so much. I was like everyone’s gifting. I guess I have to start gifting. I saw someone tagged me one day, they were like, Oh my gosh, one of your dresses as that wasteland. I’m like, Oh, I know who I sent this dress to. And now they literally they got it for free went and made money from wasteland off of the dress that I gifted to them because they asked for it. It’s just like insane. And I think that that’s a big part of the industry that people also need to understand. They’re literally paying for people to do that when they’re paying some of these markups. Absolutely. It’s a weird part of it.

Amanda

Yeah. And like look at someone like Shan, who gives away a lot of clothes. And they’re already really cheap. Yeah, like,

Isabel

imagine. Wow, imagine. Oh, I know. I know. And you. So many of these influences are getting boxes, that stuff that they’re like, Oh, I’m never gonna post this. But then like, what are they doing with this giant box of clothing? Like and that’s times 1000 Every day? Yeah, yeah. And the packaging that it came in, which is wasteful. Yeah. So

Amanda

if you’re buying a dress from Shanna, and it’s 20 bucks, which is already really cheap for a dress, I look at that as a red flag that probably the people making it got paid it to nothing. Yeah, right. realize now that they might have only gotten paid 40 cents, because like they had to send 100 Like, I don’t know what that

Isabel

was probably 1000. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like it’s that much. Like, yeah, marketing is a big part of like the BS, unethical markup, I think. And it’s, you know, definitely contributing to waste. Big time. Yeah, big time.

Amanda

Yeah. Well, it was so nice to talk to you. Yeah, you too. Got really riled. I

Isabel

know. I know. It’s clear. We’re both like have worked into many crappy situations.

Amanda

Yeah, yeah. But I think like, the more we can share those stories with people who haven’t worked and that industry, like, it’s important, it’s valuable. I started this podcast, because I realized people have this image of fashion that is

Isabel

just bullsh No, I totally agree. And I it’s funny, because I was reading some of the reviews that people do have your podcast on, like Apple podcasts, because that’s where I do podcasts. I listen. And so I was like, let me just see what people say. And so many people are like, I genuinely didn’t know like, you’re educating me. And I’m like, it’s so true. They just don’t know. I mean, just like how I don’t know the ins and outs of like working in a hospital, but like, you know, I know, I can tell you anything about fashion like I get how they don’t know, but it is really worth educating folks because it changes opinions.

Amanda

Yeah, it really does it really and it’s you don’t know what you don’t Yeah,

Isabel

and it really is a truly messed up industry. I mean, it really is. I’ve been working professionally in this industry since I was 14, I think is when I had my first professional internship in New York and I’m 31 now and like, seeing a lot of crazy shit and people definitely are not treated great in this industry and it’s definitely become the standard. And I think the fast fashion is like icing on the cake of something that was already pretty question level.

Amanda

It’s true. It’s true. I have yet to have a guest on this podcast, although if this person is listening, we’d love to hear from them that says, I had an amazing experience,

Isabel

right? I know. I’m like, yeah, maybe it’s like someone like gave you a bunch of money to like run a company and never I don’t even but even then, like, you’re gonna have problems. So I don’t it’s just gonna be straight. Yeah, yeah, even I know people like that. And their life is really stressful still. So

Amanda

yeah, I don’t I there’s I like I said, if you are that person, and you’re listening to this, let’s

Isabel

chat. I think DM me. Yeah. Right. Honestly, love to hear your experience and be open to hearing a good experience. But I honestly feel like I only had positive experiences working as an unpaid intern, which is so backwards and strange, but I just feel like yeah, I don’t know. And maybe that’s because this was also like, pre 2009. So it was kind of a different world, but I don’t know.

Amanda

It was, it was because I, I began my career before that. And then like, I can see that shift. Now in hindsight, the shift was so

Isabel

few between, like, 2012. And it was like, between 2011 and 2000, like, maybe 1314 1516. Somewhere in there. I don’t even know. I mean, culture, fashion, everything really had a shift at that time, I think I want to say 2016 was like the end of like, the golden era of a lot of things.

Amanda

It’s true. It’s true. I started my career, with a large retailer, like my career. And like, it’s a fast fashion. Yeah. And my most recent job, before the pandemic, I had come back to them to launch a new brand for them. And that break in between seeing how much faster and how much cheaper. Yeah, it was

Isabel

shocking. Yeah, no, I totally agree. I think there was a really big shift with everything at that point in time. And I it’s like, I don’t, there’s no real rhyme or reason to it. I’m sure years from now we’ll figure it out. But yeah, you studied his history. But yeah, it’s definitely. Yeah, it’s definitely been a weird shift there, that’s for sure.

Amanda

Totally, totally. Well, hopefully, we’re in the beginning of another big shift and the other direction, which I really I really do believe,

Isabel

I think so too. I

Amanda

agree with you, the more we can, like reach out to other people, you know, share our own stories, our experiences, what we’ve learned, the more impact that’s going to have.

Isabel

Yeah, 100% Absolutely.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Thank you so much to Isabel for spending some time with me. Please go give her a follow on instagram @isabel.sk. And check out her line at isabelsk.com

One last thing before I stop recording and get to turn our air conditioning back on (let me tell you, having a self-produced podcast in Austin, TX during the summer is like a Physical Challenge some days)…

I wanted to share something important that all of you here in the United States can do this week: The FABRIC Act, otherwise known as The Fashioning Accountability and Building Real Institutional Change Act. It was recently introduced in the Senate by Senator Kirsten Gillibrand (NY) and in the House of Representatives by Caroline Maloney (NY). The FABRIC Act would protect the 100,000 garment workers here in the United States and it will revitalize the garment industry in the United States by improving working conditions, reforming the piece-rate pay scale and investing in domestic apparel production.

If you’ve been hanging around here long enough, you know that the US garment industry is much smaller than it was in the past, but it still generates about $9 billion each year. And unfortunately a great deal of wage theft and garment worker exploitation happens under the Made in the USA label.

Passing the FABRIC Act will not only benefit the lives of those 100,000 garment workers and their families, it hopes to bring more of the textile industry back to the US. The policies and regulations within the Act work under five pillars:

Enforcing minimum wage standards and eliminating wage theft in US garment factories, effectively getting rid of the “paid by the piece” model that leads to dangerous working conditions, child labor, and wage theft.

Increasing accountability on brands and retailers to combat workplace violations…once again, a lot of consumers assume that the “Made in the USA” label represents good working conditions and ethical policies, but it just doesn’t.

Increasing transparency.

Incentivizing reshoring with tax credits. This in itself–bringing production back to the US–could increase transparency into supply chains and ensure safe, legal working conditions and practices.

Creating a $40 million domestic garment manufacturing grant program aimed at revitalizing the industry.

Here’s how you can get involved:

First, go to fabricact.org to learn more about this important piece of legislation.

Next, sign the petition showing support for the FABRIC Act. I will link to this in the show notes.

Call you Senators to voice your support for the FABRIC Act. There is a great script for you to use at fabricact.org

And share your support for the FABRIC Act on social media. You have a major amount of influence amongst the people in your life and odds are high that most of them care about doing the right thing, but don’t even know the FABRIC Act exists. So share away!!!

Knowledge is power. And sharing knowledge builds community and ultimately creates massive societal and governmental change. So let’s make it happen!!!