Episode 120: Quilt Clothes Must Live, featuring Dani + Lesley

Welcome to Clotheshorse, the podcast that is ripped from the headlines. Okay, not usually, but this one is…

I’m your host, Amanda and this is episode 120.

When you hear this, I will be at the Grand Canyon with Dustin. I’m actually editing and mixing all of this a week early (literally just a few hours after releasing episode 119) because I’m leaving for a work trip tomorrow morning and I’ll be gone all week. Normally I take all of my recording equipment with me on trips like this so I can work at night, but this time I’m going to try reading books or relaxing in the evening!

So what’s happening in this episode? Last month Mary Fons (writer, editor, and public speaker specializing in the history of American quilts and the life of quilts in popular culture) made a video about quilt clothing. You may have seen it on Instagram…it was posted three times. The thumbnail was a black box with the words QUILT CLOTHES MUST DIE. Today I’m being joined by Dani of Picnicwear and artist/quilter Lesley Gold. And we are going to break down this video/some of its claims, our own journeys and thoughts with it, and ultimately, what we can all learn from this as makers, activists, and members of the slow fashion community. I don’t want to give too much of it away–because trust me–it’s all in our two hour conversation, so let’s jump right in!

Amanda

All right, today we’re going to talk about something that lit the internet on fire a few weeks ago, I received this sent to me hundreds of times via both my personal and Clotheshorse Instagram account. I have already received many messages asking me if I’ve done an episode about this. Unfortunately, I’m not Dateline, it takes some time to get there. But today we’re going to talk about what I’ve been calling quilt gait. I don’t know if anybody else is calling it that. But I’m really excited to have two fabulous guests with me today. And one of them is someone you’re all familiar with Dani, go ahead, introduce yourself to everyone again.

Dani

Hi, everyone. I’m Dani. I am the sole proprietor and designer of Picnicwear, you hear my ad at the beginning of the episodes. I’ve been on quite a number of episodes with Amanda. And yes, Picnicwear is a slow fashion brand made mostly with upcycle towels. So for a while this whole Quiltgate thing was going on. A lot of people like reshared my posts and were like, let Dani keep making quilt clothes. Never have I cut up a quilt but whatever. And then I found myself like in this whole thing. But we’ll get more into that and why soon.

Amanda

It’s funny because I received messages from people who were like, Amanda makes stuff out of quilts let her do it. And I was like, I actually don’t literally make anything guys. I don’t have time. But thank you. Thank you for thinking of me in this important time. Dani is talking about a video that was posted on Instagram not once, not twice, but three times titled QUILT CLOTHES MUST DIE. And it was posted by a woman named Mary Fons. This is not a Mary Fons takedown podcast, I do have some issues. Lots of really like amicable way of saying I have some issues with the video, the way it was created, etc. But this is not about like fuck Mary Fons, for quilting, anything like that. So Dani has brought a guest with her. Dani, why don’t you tell us why you wanted to do this episode, because it was your idea. And then you can tell us why you broughtLLesley into this.

Dani

Sure. Yeah. So Amanda, you and I have been talking for a long time about doing an episode about trends because, you know, based on both of our experiences working in the retail world for so long, and a part of the always had this kind of like thing in the back of my head about the whole quilt clothes trend, and how, in many ways it was starting to sit uncomfortably for me, because of how kind of like saturated that whole market came became. And having known Lesley for a very long time, and her being a quilter and, like a meticulous quilter very passionate quilter I could even though I never had a conversation with Lesley about this. I just knew because of her passion that she was probably going wild by all this quilt clothing she was seeing. I feel like we even exchanged a couple words on Instagram about it like my dad must. Yeah, I was like You must be like fucking dying because of all these clothes being made out of quilts. And so when and I wanted to start this conversation with you, Amanda and the quilt thing always kind of was in my mind because but I was, you know, kind of having a hard time figuring out how to approach it because I don’t want to offend anyone. And I have so many friends who make things out of quilts. But so when this quick video came out, and I saw it, even a little bit on the late end, but it felt like kind of on the early end, I feel like it was like a day after Mary Fons made these posts, but I saw it because of Lesley Lesley shared it in her Instagram stories. And so my husband Jason found saw that she posted it and was like, Oh, Dani, we’re gonna want to watch this because we talk about and so we like put it on our TV. We’re like, it’s 20 minutes, like put it on the TV not Oh, yeah. And we started watching and so when it started, I was like, eager to see this woman’s perspective because I you know, just from the way that Lesley shared it, I knew it was coming from a quilter and it was called quilt coat clothes must die. So obviously I kind of had a feeling where it was going. And in the beginning I was like okay, yeah, like this lady’s a little wild. I don’t know about her like, the way she’s handling this but I can you know, I appreciate her perspective. And then it kind of like turned a curve and just got nasty. Like it had mean girls burn book vibe energy. And it was like not cool anymore. And actually, I felt like it was starting to have the exact opposite effect of what I was hoping this conversation would bring up because her perspective of like, quote, clothes was just so nasty and gatekeeping. And, and I felt like it was doing a disservice to the fact that so many people already own clothes made out of quilts. This trend has been going on for a number of years now. And the way that she was approaching it was very like to wear clothes, to wear clothing made out of quilts is like, shameful. You should never, like all these people who already have clothes made on quilts what you’re saying, like, keep it in the back of your closet, throw it away. Donate it, like what are you trying to say here, because this is having like a negative effect, in my opinion. So that’s why I got really up in arms about it, because it was like, you know, this is the opposite of what Austin the upcycling world are trying to promote. We’re promoting like reusing textiles, making things that will stand the test of time. They’re beautiful raw materials. And they’re beautiful when those raw materials are turned into coats or whatever it may be. So that’s kind of why I was and then I started to see some other folks in the upcycling world start to share it and I just decided to add my voice in. Yeah, so that’s kind of how the conversation started. And Amanda and I started talking about it.

Amanda

And you suggested that we bring Lesley and yeah, conversation, so why don’t you introduce Lesley to us.

Dani

Yeah, I would, oh my god, I would love to talk. So okay, so I guess the reason why I thought of Lesley is because this Mary woman just made me so mad. She had some like good points that were just getting so muddied by her nastiness. And couldn’t stop thinking about Lesley and how Lesley is an amazing quilt artist. Lesley is an amazing artist, period. Any if you know Lesley, anything she puts her mind to any craft she dives into. She become so immersed in it, that she like, she’ll make anyone feel ashamed or even dabbling into it. I’m not kidding.

Amanda

This is why I’m

Dani

introducing you and you’re not introducing. Yeah. Wow. I

Amanda

mean, this is serious.

Dani

Like, seriously, I’m like, I’m not I can’t even overstate how talented Lesley is. I I’ve known Lesley for actually, it’s crazy to say this, Lesley, but like pretty much exactly 10 years. Wow, this week, because Oh, Lesley was my now husband’s roommate when we started dating. And we started dating exactly 10 years ago. So and I remember I don’t know if you dabbled with quilts before. But I do remember it feeling like you were like, really starting to immerse yourself in quilts at the time. When I first met you. And also at the time, Lesley was an avid bug collector. And

Amanda

insects. Okay, sorry. Yeah, yeah.

Dani

Elections were so goddamn beautiful. Like even me who am I’m so worked out by insects like I was like, floored by how incredible her I don’t know the way it was like museum quality the way she like, put these insects together. Um, so anyways, I like I literally have so many notes about how amazing Lesley is. I’m not gonna like continue to embarrass you by going into it. But she’s just super passionate. She’s super opinionated and stubborn. So I was like, why am I doing this by bringing her into this conversation? Like I was a little scared to be introduction here’s Lesley.

Amanda

So Lesley, I don’t even know how you follow that introduction with your actual self but good luck. So just tell us tell us a little bit about you. We we get it you’re like really brilliant. Quilts.

Lesley

Honestly, Dani, I don’t know if I should be like honored or embarrassed. I think it’s both probably leaning on the embarrassed side. But but it’s really great to be here. And thanks, Amanda for having me. Um, well, I guess, okay a little about myself, I’ll probably start where I started quilting because that’s what matters. I was in college, and it was my last semester, I needed one more elective. I was a fibers major at SCAD. And I looked at the class classes that were offered, and there was a quilting class. And I was like, Yeah, I’ll take a quilting class. Um, the class was taught by Pam Wiley, who’s like such an incredible quilter. And person, anyone who knows her, just falls in love. And so I took the class, and it was one of those things where you are immediately drawn to it and like, you know, that it’s something that’s going to be like a part of your life forever. I feel like a lot of people have that about different things. For me, it was quilting. And a lot of people feel that way about quilting. Like a lot of people have an immediate connection to it. Sometimes it comes from families, sometimes it’s just like on your own like me. But I quilted. I like took quilting with me. I moved to New York, I moved back to I moved down to Philly, and at it was mostly just like a hobby for me. And then at one point, the owner of BDD W. Tyler Hays bought one of my quilts and hung it in the showroom in New York. And that was kind of like the start of like doing commissions and that that kind of turned it for like more of a hobby into something more, not too much more because I’ve always had a day job. But I’m also part of a group of quilters called piecework collective and it’s just a group from like around the world really. And we were showing in New York every year we haven’t done it for the past couple years. Hopefully we’ll get back into it, but that’s a really really cool group. And I’m also a woodworker that’s what I do is my day job Wow. Yeah, I I started taking quilting classes in Philly 10 years ago, and then at a certain point, I went to Boston to a school called North Bennet Street School, which is like a really really amazing vocational school they have class they have like different programs like violin making piano technology, preservation, carpentry locksmithing and I was in the cabinet and furniture making program and they really focused on like technique and skill. And it was more about like learning the actual like craft and like of woodworking, then designing which is like how a lot of other skills are and we we drew a lot from like historical pieces of furniture. So like it was very like period furniture heavy. And we like would take them apart and look at them. And it was just it was really cool. And I think like I definitely became obsessed with like antiques at that point because I was like, into, like immersed in the antique furniture world and I was also looking at Antique Quilts a lot. I love Antique Quilts. I love all quilts. To be honest, I love all quilt, new quilts. I love all people that quilt I love talking about quilts. I’m like super, super obsessed. In fact, like if there’s any word to like, describe like who I am, it would be like obsessive and like a perfectionist and like, I’m like really craftsmanship. Heavy. I mean, like I know, that’s not everybody’s cup of tea. But for me, it’s just like fun to like, push myself to that, like, point of like trying to get it like perfect. It’s obsessive, but, but it’s fun. Yeah, so So that’s, that’s pretty much that’s me.

Amanda

Well, so thought we could get started by talking about our initial reactions to the video and how our opinions may or may not have changed as we thought about it. I mean, we’re gonna be talking about this video an awful lot today. So we’ll probably change your opinions even as we’re talking. I thought I’d start by saying, you know, like, the first time I received the video, I was like, oh, you know, I’m glad somebody is finally talking about this. Like, at first I was like, This is great, because I’m not an expert on quilting by any means. I don’t even have any members of my family who quilts but I know that it is an art form. It is it requires a great deal of skill and time and, you know, it’s it’s traditionally been a craft for women. And it’s and as a result, it’s kind of been, I don’t know, ignored not given the credit it deserves and I feel like we’re finally there where that’s happening. And so once again, not an expert on quilts, but I would sometimes see quilts that were being cut up or being sold to be cut up that once again not An expert looked like they might be too nice or too important to perfect to cut up. And that was concerning to me at the same time, go to the thrift store, constantly seeing quilts that are stained or weird sizes are not all that’s great, but part of it is that are going to end up in the landfill if someone doesn’t use them. So I’ve always been like, really torn about it, but ultimately glad that stuff was being rescued from the landfill. But as I watched this video, I became more and more inflamed. As I watched it, just just, you know, we’re gonna break down all the reasons that were concerning to me. But ultimately, it like, like Dani said, it took on a sort of Mean Girls energy, where it was like showing the pictures of the so called dumb clothing. And that felt really personal and nasty without shielding a lot of the faces to Yeah, the faces were in there and, and that, that was like against that goes against everything I believe in. I like to think that the makers community, the quilt community, the sustainability community is slow fashion community, we, we are all heavily intersecting Venn diagrams. And so I really would like to think that we would all be there to have each other’s back and that part, even before she started talking about just going to target and getting your fake quilt clothes. I was just like, now I’m upset. Now I’m upset, right. So that was my journey with it. Dani, do you have any more to add before we get Lesley’s take?

Dani

Not really. I feel like I kind of introduced it a lot. When I first started my spiel about why I thought we should do an episode on this. But just to kind of echo what you said. It just was like, I felt like her opinion was getting. It was more about her opinion and her soapbox preaching and felt very the word that I saw in so many comments was the gatekeeping aspect of it. And yeah, it just felt it felt preachy, and it felt unnecessarily cruel. And that was the thing that really, I felt like, like I said, was doing a disservice to the message. And I was like, I would love to actually hear the perspective of someone who isn’t so nasty. You know, and because I did think that the there, there needed to be the voice of the quilt community heard on this. And yeah, so that’s kind of what what bothered me a lot about it. I mean, we’re going to talk more about like, the appropriation aspects of it, and all those sorts of things. But um, yeah, I would say, kind of echoing everything you said, Amanda.

Lesley

And, and yeah, I’ll talk about what happened when I watched it. I actually had an experience. Before I watched the video, I will admit that I fell victim to the clickbait. And which, by the way, the title I just want to point this out. The title of the video is let me say it’s stopped cutting up quilts to make clothes. That’s the official title of the video. Okay, the quilt clothes must die is just like a black box of like clickbait. You know what I mean?

Amanda

Did you see the video posted

Dani

before the Instagram though? Like, did you see it in YouTube? Or did you know from Instagram,

Lesley

I saw it from Instagram. And I know, I know the name Mary Fons. But I didn’t like, you know, I don’t follow her. I don’t know her. But it actually appeared in my like, suggested screen. And so I saw that was my diet, and I clicked on it. And before I watched a video, I shared it to my stories. And I said something like, gearing up to watch this or something like mentally preparing to watch this. That’s what I said. And yeah, the first response I got, like that was from a very well known, well respected quilter who responded to me saying you’re wrong. And then unfollowed me. Oh, wow. And I I know how it’s, um, and it was at that point that I was like, Oh, this is going to be a divisive topic. Like, yeah, for sure. And I even wrote to her and I was like, you know, like, willing to hear both sides. Like, I hadn’t even thought of the other side. This is something that I think about often. Like, this wasn’t like, the first time I had heard about it. And she and she didn’t respond to me. We ended up having a conversation later because I contacted her again, but yeah, it was just so that was kind of like the The intro for me. And then I also put it up on the TV and my boyfriend and I watched it there together, which is very funny that you did that to me, Jason. And I gotta say, first time around, I agreed with almost everything she said, But scattered in there were moments of true cringe. Like, I hated that she posted photos of people, some of those people are my friends. Like, I did not like that at all. And especially saying, I can’t stand when people say, I’m not naming names. It’s like, but you are you’re just being so passive aggressive. Like, yeah, so passive aggressive right now, like, literally post photo their work like you’re naming names. Yeah, yeah. Um, and, obviously, like, comparing it to murder, I had a huge issue with that. Cultural Appropriation I had big issue with that. I mean, like, Yeah, I had there, there were issues. But I truly honestly, like, agreed with what she was saying. And I want to say that I told you guys this before, but I did have a real awakening. Because I watched the video again today. I had the same feelings about it. But this, this has probably literally never been said before. Ever. I read the comments, which is like the dribble of the internet. And yeah, changed my mind. It’s like, wow, weighed me.

Dani

Me too. I felt like I was kind of like, straddling the line of how I felt about things. And then by reading all the comments, I didn’t really read the comments on YouTube. I was too scared to, but I went into the comments in Instagram. And that’s where I read so many. Really beautiful, thoughtful points. Yeah. hadn’t even dawned on me. And it made me like full on the quilt clothes must live side. Yeah, I’m no exception. I’m not with Sonics,

Lesley

but I am. Yeah. I I’m in a much different place. And, and I do want to say, like, after having that experience of like, changing my mind, it was it was I felt lighter. I felt liberated. I was like, what else? Can I change my mind about? I swear to God, wow, what else is there? And I was like, trying to think and I couldn’t think of anything. But

Dani

it’s funny, because at the end of a Google Doc that we have shared, I wrote in quotation marks, normalized, changing your opinion when being presented with new information, right? Because I felt I felt like my opinion was changed because I was given all this other information.

Amanda

Right, right. No, I agree. So I I like Dani to not read the YouTube comments, because the last time I did that, I saw someone talking about someone having cankles this was a different video. And I was like, This is a video about like, how to, you know, like, refinish a piece of furniture like, so I am not never going to read the YouTube comments again, because apparently they’re triggering even when we’re talking about vintage furniture. So I said, when to the Instagram comments, which to be fair, as a person who is on the internet, as a person who gets a lot of comments. I am also anxious about reading Instagram comments, but like Dani said, there were some really good ones there. Like I almost thought about reaching out to people and asking if I could read them on this episode. And I was like, You know what, the listeners can go find these videos and listen to them. And the great news is the video is posted three fucking times. So you can watch it you can have three sets of comments to watch. So I wanted before we jump in, I wanted to talk about that a little bit because like I too, had never heard of marathons before this. What struck me immediately it was that black box that said quilt clothes must die. And the fact that the video was posted three times in a row with that big black box really says something because you wouldn’t need to do that unless you were trying to get as many people as possible on your account watching that video lifting up that algorithm. i So something that happens to me a lot is that people accuse me on Instagram of posting clickbait and I have a new policy, which is that if you call anything that I post as close or as clickbait you are immediately blocked because that’s just bullshit nastiness. And that is because the definition of clickbait this comes from Merriam Webster, something designed to make readers want to click on a hyperlink, especially when the link leads to content of dubious value or interest. So I know that the content I create I’ve actually researched and worked really hard. It’s thoughtful and it’s not intended to get you to click on something because like, I don’t care if you do or not, right. This felt like a clickbait where it was like, I’m gonna get you so fuckin riled up. You’re in a coma on this video, you’re going to follow Mary Fons, you’re gonna leave comments, you’re going to share it, send it be pissed off. And this is going to make Mary Fons famous. It just felt so gross to me.

Dani

Yeah, honestly, I felt that a there’s one part of it that I did. Consider though is that like, as someone who works on the look of my Instagram, meticulously like, to a fault, where I’m like, I’m spending too much time on this. I’m like, what she just trying to like even things out instead of having this one random post in the middle there. But I don’t know if that’s like being too generous to her. Um, but yeah,

Amanda

I mean, definitely, I will say and we could talk about this more at the end. Mary Fons has posted since this video, and she refuses to really directly acknowledge any flaws in the video. Yeah, she definitely is continuing to try to gaslight, anybody who has an issue with it into believing that they’re just wrong or misunderstanding, understanding, which there’s no misunderstanding here. That once again, the title is at least that black screen is quilt clothes must die. It’s really hard to get confused there. So I felt like there was a lot of weird intent around creating this video in the first place. So Mary Fons has a lot of issues with quail clothing. That’s what this video is about, obviously. But her big theme with it seems to be that it appropriates quilt culture and I thought we could start by unpacking that. What is quilt culture? This is something I’m really going to defer to Lesley on, but I would love to know, who participates in quilt culture and how has it changed over time?

Lesley

Well, I really can I can I just start by talking about what what quilts are the kind of quilts I kind of want people to like understand the like the vast scope of quilts like around the world and just the history. It’s not going to be that long, but Oh,

Amanda

educate us. We’re like, we don’t know stuff about quilting.

Lesley

Alright, well, okay, quilts. quilts are three layers of fabric, a top, a bottom, and they’re sandwiched around some kind of middle which is like a bad thing. It can be cotton or wool. It can be thick, it can be thin, but a quilt is three layers. So it’s a noun, but it is also a verb because to quilt is to actually stitch or tie all of those layers together. So you can say like, I’m quilting right now. So that means that you’re like literally like stitching like to quilt is to stitch. And then all there’s so many different kinds of quilts. This is what I love about it so much like the the sky’s the limit. And I encourage everybody to take up quilting, it’s so much fun. So there’s something called whole cloth quilting, which means that it’s just like a single piece of fabric on the top. And within that whole cloth, you can have true appunto quilts which have like, which you like fill with cotton, so it’s like little mounds and there’s wedding quilts, which are like traditionally white, and it’s mostly just stitching these these quilts are really just is where like the quilting shines. And there’s like these quilts that come from different regions and they’re noticeable from those areas. So like you can have like Welsh or Italian quilts and like, they have like a beautiful like sheen of fabric and it’s just a whole cloth quilt with like different patterns that are like specific to that region. Most what time most what we see are pieced quilts, which means there’s like little pieces of fabric which can be like hand or machine sewn together to make the design on top. Like everybody right now is doing nine patch quilting, nine patch piecing, I should say so it’s just nine squares piece together. But they’re their encyclopedias of different blocks and you know blocks are just like the blocks that repeat on a quilt to make a pattern and it’s really cool to see these encyclopedias there are so many there are 1000s and then you have like embroidered quilts so you know your red work which is my personal like one of my personal favorites. I absolutely love red work and like blue work that also gets into the scope of like signature quilts which are like community quilts where people come together and like sign their names. And then a lot of times, someone will let go over the signature and embroidery applique quilts love applique this is like a something that I don’t know if this is true, but like to me I think of is like a regional thing like we know of Hawaiian quilts. Those are, you know, women from Hawaii have they take it, it’s a whole cloth background. And then it’s one piece of fabric that’s cut, that’s cut an applique like, as if it’s like a snowflake, you know that always incredibly like fold up a snowflake like piece of paper, cut it out and then open it up. So those are truly incredible. Whoa, I

Amanda

just Googled stunning.

Lesley

Yeah, and, you know, there’s Baltimore album quilts, which are really super elaborate, like floral and pictorial quilts from Baltimore. And these can be like all different kinds of like geometric and abstract pictorial. Like there’s just, there’s just no limit to what you can do with that. And then there’s like, mix kind of quilts like, you know, you got your crazy quilts, which are fun, just kind of like improv Patchwork, and then, you know, there’s like a decorative embroidery. So, and then after that, there’s like, quilts of significance. So like, they commemorate different, like human experiences like baby quilts, wedding quilts, morning quilts when people die. And they’re just like, such a special and unique object. And the reason that like I bring all of this up is because I feel I feel so strongly that quilters are like not only masters of their craft, but they’re like legit artists, you know, they create like 3d objects out of 2d designs and involves so many different like skills from design and color placement to handwork. And it should never be taken lightly the amount of like artistry and skill needed to create one, let alone we’re not even talking about time, which is like an unbelievable amount of time. So I kind of wanted to start there to say that it’s really important that if you think like, even if you think it’s okay to cut up a quilt to make clothes, which I actually do now. i Wow. Now, I think it’s okay, like, you know, and I think it’s even good. I just want to make sure that’s huge people

Dani

I can’t understand how huge this is huge. I

Amanda

did not see this coming at all.

Lesley

I just, I just don’t want people to be like dismissive of the emotional like connection and historical value and like the meaning of welts and like just just what they are to people like that should be respected. You know? Yeah. Okay, history of quilts and and then culture. Okay, quilts were brought over to the Americas, by settlers. And they kind of like, spawned off from that direction. Women started making them. Indian women started making them. We know, we know of Native Americans, like they’re incredible with their crafts, you know, they have their beadwork and leather work. They’re not really known for their quilts, but they do have some incredible like star patterns. enslaved women were making quilts. These quilts historically span so many cultures, they span it spans continents, I mean, there’s like Japanese quilts. There’s there’s so many different kinds of quilts. That it’s like, original place is with like everyone, and I really believe that nowadays. You know, nowadays like if I’m being totally honest here like it feels like a white woman thing. Now there are some like incredible black women like making like serious quilts that are like in galleries like some of the most famous quilters right now like our but it feels like a white woman thing and it feels very it’s hard. It’s hard to like define it. But like if you know what the Modern Quilt Guild is, it’s like a National Quilt Guild that is just like mostly middle aged white woman which is fine, which is fine, but that kind of feels like where the culture is. It kind of feels like that’s where a lot of craft cultures can be like knitting and stuff just because like to to do to make art to do things you need to have like, a lot of time and sometimes, unfortunately, that kind of falls to white women who aren’t like have

Dani

a degree of privilege. absolutely is. Yeah,

Lesley

a degree of privilege. Exactly. That’s what I’m trying to say. So. So that is where it is. It feels like quilt culture is like coming into like a new wave right now there’s a lot of quilters from like around the world who are getting together because of social media. And people are doing like really interesting things no longer is that like, like, stock colors from like fabric calm, but people are like dyeing their own fabrics. And it’s like a lot of we’re moving away from machine quilting to like hand quilting. It feels very, like soft. But But I don’t want to put like any quotes down because I do love all of them. And I love all quilters. And I could talk about quilts all day long. And never get tired of it. But yeah, I think that’s that’s kind of where it stands at the moment. Beautiful. From my point of view, from my point,

Amanda

I loved it. It was very educational, which is what we needed. Because I you know, Dani and I talked about doing a quilt episode. And I was like, I don’t I don’t know anything about quilts. I think they’re pretty. I know, they take a long time. I think they’re really cool. So I’m glad, I’m glad that you were able to give us the very abbreviated version of quilt history here. I guess I would just get let’s get things started by saying like is quilt clothing, appropriating quilt culture? And I thought, you know, it never hurts to do just a little breakdown of what cultural appropriation is. Because I think it’s something that we hear on the internet, we see conversations about sometimes those conversations are right, and sometimes they’re wrong. But what comes up over and over again, is that a lot of people don’t really understand what it is, but they know it’s bad. Right? So but rather than being like, I assume you all know about what cultural appropriation is let’s determine if we’re culturally appropriating quote, culture. Let’s break it down. So I found an amazing article that I’m actually going to share in the show notes that I felt really broke down cultural appropriation in a very easy to understand way that wasn’t jargon heavy, it was just really approachable. So I’m going to be sharing that link in the show notes. I’m going to be stealing a lot from that article. Cultural Appropriation refers to the use of objects or elements of a non dominant culture in a way that doesn’t respect their original meaning, give credit to their source, or reinforces stereotypes or contributes to oppression. So cultural appropriation is a big deal, right? Like it’s not, it’s not something to be taken lightly. And it’s certainly not something to be thrown out there in bad faith. When we talk about culture, what is the culture that’s being appropriated here, Culture refers to anything associated with a group of people based on their ethnicity, religion, geography, or social environment. This might include beliefs, traditions, language, objects, ideas, behaviors, customs, values, or institutions. appropriation refers to taking something that doesn’t belong to you. And most often refers to an exchange that happens when a dominant group takes or borrows something from a minority group that has been historically exploited or oppressed. It’s important to call out that the group appropriating cultural elements often has no knowledge of the history or significance of the elements it’s appropriating. Often, these cultural elements are being used as part of a trend. So even their use is limited to the length of the trend, which just further reinforces the negative impact of cultural appropriation. Basically, cultural heritage should never be a trend story. And yet, we know we all have examples swimming in our minds right now, of fashion trends of decorative trends of all kinds of trends that have been 100% short lived and culturally appropriated. So where we see cultural appropriation happening the most and you guys jump in, if you have some examples here that might illuminate people, intellectual property, artifacts, dance, clothing, and fashion. That’s the one where I have seen it happen so often throughout my career. I remember specifically a collection of clothing we did at Nasty Gal when I was there. That was a complete knockoff of traditional Chinese dress. I said, Hey, this seems wrong to me. It was lifted from a runway show, I can’t remember which designer who also was culturally appropriating with abandon. And that was supposed to be our defense. Well, we didn’t do it first, like St. Laurent did it for us or whoever it was, and then to take it to the next level. Our marketing team did a photoshoot in Chinatown in LA no with these clothes. I have searched the Internet for evidence of this but it has been long wiped. Of course we we didn’t get The kind of blowback that I had anticipated or hoped, but we did get some. So that’s one that I have experienced a lot. But there’s also language music, food, religious symbols, decorations, medicine, makeup, hairstyles, tattoos. Here’s my personal favorite wellness practices. That’s a big one right now. Think of it all right. There’s cultural appropriation happening in a lot of different areas of our lives. Right now, when you’re trying to determine whether or not a project or an idea is cultural appropriation. There are questions you can ask yourself, I thought we could see how these apply to quote, clothing. Okay. So the first is, as the cold clothes maker, what is your goal with what you’re doing? I mean, I would say probably, you know, to make make money, and I hope like, you know, save things from the landfill, right? Oh,

Amanda

are you following a trend or exploring the history of a culture? So I’m gonna say, and this is with hashtag, not all quilt clothing makers. I do feel that probably a lot of them are not deeply entrenched in the knowledge of quilt history.

Dani

Yeah, I mean,

Lesley

I feel like most of them are not even dabbling in it. I have. Yeah,

Amanda

I agree. And this, this is where you’re like, Okay, so I see a little bit of where, what Mary Fons is saying here, I mean, it’s gonna go off the rails in a few minutes. But, you know, we can all agree that quilt clothing has been a trend. For better or worse, upcycling is a trend, I wanted to become a way of life, I would love to see this one stick around clothing would probably be a part of it. But so would be what Dani does, making clothing out of towels, you know, people making dresses out of sheets, what Selina Sanders does with tea towels and other you know, linens like, I would love to see that continue. And so I don’t want upcycling to be a passing trend. And therefore I don’t want quilt clothing to be a trend. But we can agree. It’s been very real moment.

Dani

It’s very it is or it is now. And it’s not even just the clothing is new at all. It’s been around forever. As long, right? It’s right around.

Amanda

But it’s been like having a big moment in fashion. Yeah, both in mainstream fashion and in our own like slow fashion area. And I actually, a friend of mine owns an incredible Quilt Company. And one thing they do is they make quilt coats every fall. And she was telling me like, you know, the peak of it really for them was about 2019 2020. And it has the has slowly kind of fallen off. So I do wonder if there’s a trend component to this? I mean, we know there is but could it become a lifelong trend and just a way of life. I don’t know. It’s definitely something that’s on my mind. Especially because, you know, as Mary Fons brings up, you can go to Target not right now, but you could a few months ago and get quilt inspired clothing. I saw it I was shocked. Yeah. Like how, how extensive it was it how inexpensive it was. So here’s the next question. Are you deliberately trying to insult someone’s culture? Or are you being respectful?

Dani

And I don’t think anyone is deliberately no salt. Someone like the quiltmakers? No, I

Amanda

don’t think so. either. Are you purchasing something that is a reproduction of a culture or an original? This is our re working.

Dani

That’s a muddy one because I feel like I’ve actually seen some quilt like coat makers making quilt codes out of urban out like a quilt that I had in my dorm. Is that okay? You know what I mean? It was just like,

Amanda

so sad. interesting

Dani

to think about.

Amanda

You just unlocked a memory for me of a quilt that I bought from guests Urban Outfitters. At least 10 years ago, it was totally like, it was really quilted. Right. And it was really patchwork and it was really beautiful. But it was like the Urban Outfitters version of it, which means it was made of like, horrible fabric. And every time I washed it, it pulled apart more and it was just mending and mending and mending. And we still have it somewhere in this house. But it’s, it’s been around for so long and patch so many times that it’s not something we wrap mirrors in to move. You know, like it’s like it can’t be salvaged or washed anymore.

Lesley

Well, that’s actually a good point that you bring up because a lot of like antique and vintage quilts are are they’re so old at this point, like all fabric has a life yeah, everything will just deteriorate and if you are planning on like washing that like it will fall apart like it actually will. Yeah apart at least like the quilt

Amanda

part. Right. Right. Oh, it’s interesting to think about the quilt close to in that regard. Right? Yeah. I mean, I Okay, how would people from the culture you are borrowing an item from feel about what you’re doing? Well, I can tell you, like I said, when deep into the comments, yeah, Mary Fons video, and I would say, you can tell me if you saw otherwise, I would say 75% of them were like, What the fuck Mary Fons? Like, do you want quilting on the landfill, but there were people there who were like, good on you. I’ve been thinking this for a long time. And it makes me really angry. And, you know, we should be treasuring every quilt ever as an art, you know, as an artifact of the past.

Dani

It’s definitely a mixed bag I was definitely seeing. And it also depends on where are you are reading the comments, because I had a lot of comments on my post. I know some actual quilt upside colors had a lot of comments on their posts. And you know, a lot of them most of the ones on maybe even all of the ones on mine were in defense of the quilt clothing makers. Whereas on Mary Fons, his post, of course, actually, I feel like if you look in the order of the posts, like the first like, you know, 50 comments are all in defense of her point. And then you start to see it so

Lesley

phonies come in. Yeah. You know, I was just reading a book about all kinds of different things. But one of the things that talked about was like comments sections, and how and how, in the beginning, the people who are seeing it are the people that are following that person who probably have the same belief. So like, that’s how the comments

Unknown Speaker

work. Definitely, definitely. But

Lesley

But yes, they I will say I went through the YouTube comments, and most of them were against what she was saying, although I do have, obviously, like a lot of friends that are very, very strongly opinionated about this.

Amanda

I will say this, I am always especially my old age, very suspicious of anything that is very straight, black and white thinking like this is 100% Wrong. This is 100%. Right. So I seeing the video, I was like, this is like there. This doesn’t allow for any gray area in this issue this video. And neither did the comments section up to say that like, you know, I could listen, if you make a quilt and you spend I can’t Lesley, how long does it take to make a quilt like a like a nice quilt? Well,

Lesley

it totally depends. Like, one quilt I made it literally took me a year to make. And I had I had a after I finished that quilt I literally had like a euphoric moment where I thought that I was God and I kind of I II Quate that to like, a woman giving birth except like I spent more time on this and surveys. Yeah, and labored and the labor was more intensely. But yes, like, I really had that feeling. So like, and, and you know, some some quotes take like years and years and years, but most people spend like a couple of months on a quilt like working diligently.

Amanda

I mean, even if I spent three, four or five months making a quilt, and then I saw it cut up and turned into a pair of pants and a crop top, I would most definitely lose my shit. But the reality is that is probably not is what is happening with these clothes, right? These are quilts that I mean, once again, I don’t know how all of these quilts are being sourced but from what I can tell, they’re being found at yard sales, thrift stores estate sales, like no one wanted them anymore, right. So one would assume that the original maker is no longer around, you

Lesley

never really know that I have to say you don’t know that, like someone could have died. And now there’s quilts at their house that like get left behind. Like you don’t really know that. And also, just because they’re like on eBay doesn’t mean that they were like, not wanted, I think that most of these quilts that are made. I mean, it’s true. It different quilts heard differently, when you see them, some of them are like very standard, like the patterns that someone just like, you know, got from like a pattern book and was using them, but there are some that are like, so unique and like it just honestly like fucking pains me to see that. And what I would hope is that the people who are cutting these up, just like are aware of what is unique and rare. And and I think like, there are things you can do like now quilts are so popular, like if there is a little thing wrong with it, like mend it and then sell it as a quote.

Dani

Yeah. What’s your point about like eBay, you don’t know, whether it’s like, you know, where it came from, or what have you like another aspect of that is that like, you know, like, I try and draw a line even, you know, I’m using towels, not quilts, but I try really hard to resist the urge to get into a bidding war on eBay and I don’t know how this is happening in the quilt world but you never know somebody could be on one side of that. bidding war who genuinely wants to put it on their bed who wants to hang it in there? You know what I mean? And yeah, we know, especially with the rise of populate popularity with quilts like, you don’t, even if you go to an estate sale, you could be like, first in line at the estate sale, because you know, they have a stack of quilts. And your intention is to sell them to people to make coats out of this is just a hypothetical example. Whereas somebody else could have come in there and bought it. Obviously, there are so many different situations, and it’s it is, like you said, it’s not black and white, it’s really hard to draw a line. And one thing that does, like as an up cycler, that I have a really tough time with is I now have this business. And my livelihood depends on making clothes out of towels. And so I do have like, kind of a struggle sometimes to determine like, do I need to do this for my business for my survival? Or do I pass this up, because somebody else might actually use it for its original purpose, and it is in good condition and can be still used as a towel. And so it is tough, I can see the challenge with people who have become embedded in this quilt coat making world that they can’t really make that call anymore, because this is what they do. And, and so it’s tough. Like I can genuinely say from the perspective of someone who makes clothing out of a specific raw material that like, you know, I’m not just I can’t just go anywhere and find any random raw material and make something out of it. Because I’ve created a brand with an aesthetic. And people want something specific from me now. So, you know, saying like, it’s really hard to lay in that position and to be that discerning. And what’s your alternative? You’ll take that quilt home and find someone else who wants it like that’s another job to find someone else who will try anything with that quill? I know we’re kind of going off topic. Yeah, no, appropriately. Are

Lesley

we are they Yeah, just

Amanda

but I mean, I think I think that that is a valid point, when you were talking about eBay and the bidding and like you don’t know the other person’s intentions, or really anywhere you go, that really struck a chord with me, because for about a year and a half straight, I was trying to find a quilt for our bed. And I just, I just couldn’t find every time I’d be like, this is the one it would end up going. crazy amount of money. And honestly, I just assumed everybody was buying them for their beds, and they wanted them so badly. They were going to give them years of life and be cozy under them. But now I’m like, Oh, you’re probably right. Some of these are being bought to turn into quilt codes. And I’ve heard I mean, just like any trend can lead to some hoarding. I’ve heard stories of people who have 1220 quilt coats now and you’re like, what? Yeah, that’s, you know, like those. That’s, that’s extreme. Right. And so, once again, like, as we’re talking about, should quote clothes die, should they not? There’s never a simple answer to anything. Because, yeah, probably consumption of quilts. And as clothing has gotten out of control, probably some people have cut them up that shouldn’t have because they didn’t maybe make the best use of these valuable raw materials. At the same time, plenty of them were going to go to the landfill because like I would see lesser quality quilts or quilts that needed major stain removal or repairs, or are weird sizes at thrift stores all the time. And I would hope that someone bought those and use them but then I would see stunning quilts on eBay that were flawless. Going for like $300 And I was like I hope that’s going on someone’s bad. So it’s it’s it’s complicated, right? Like everything that we talked about. There’s no straightforward clear like, this is right, this is wrong answer. It’s just stuff is I have a quick

Dani

question. Lesley. And I have both used the term raw materials while talking about quilts. Does that pain you?

Lesley

It doesn’t because I understand. I want to interject and say, to clarify, I actually love quote clothes, like I do. And it you know, it’s disturbing when I see quilts that are like super rare. That hurts but I do love them because I love class and so of course I would love them like seeing that on any form. So that was that was one thing I hated about Mary’s but yeah, but you guys both touched on that as well. But I just wanted to offer Yeah, because

Dani

she’s really it. That’s a really good point. Because by criticizing the clothing, it’s like it’s A little bit confusing because she’s saying like dumb pants, and like criticizing the jumpsuits or whatever. But the really offensive thing is that it’s I just can’t figure it out because you either are criticizing the quilt, or you’re criticizing the design of the jumpsuit, in which case, it has nothing to do with the quilt. You’re just criticizing the designer and the silhouette that they’ve created. So I think

Lesley

I think she’s just so offended by the practice. Seeing the quilt as that thing is, like, yeah, fair glares. Right, right. Yeah,

Amanda

we tend to think okay, well, Mary Fons is like a journalist in the area of quilts, right. So we assume that this video is this journalistic document with tons of integrity. And in fact, it’s really just not it’s just a rant and a lot of bad feelings, and feeling upset and getting something off your chest. And perhaps it is a burden to be Mary Fons, the journalist and not be able to express the feelings boldly of Mary Fons the person. And here’s kind of where she is right? Because, like, people look to her as this person who’s like an expert on quilting. Who is now out there saying this jumpsuit is dumb. And, quote, clothes must die, which is not none of that is journalistic. It’s not even handed to add to that she the facts about it. Right, murky, you know,

Dani

she, this is the part that really really upset me was that she actually interviewed some of these up cyclers these, you know, folks making clothing out of quilts. Under I’m not going to say under the guise of it being for what’s the magazine quilt folk or quilt something quilt con, because she was she she interviewed them for this article that she wrote that also came out I believe around the same time that the video came out. And if I read that article, without having seen the video, I you know that you can, you can send some of the tone because once you’ve seen the video, but it’s a much more Fair article. So it’s real. I just I’m very confused about what her angle was like what she was going for with this other than just to get attention. Because she the the lack of journalistic integrity that she presented by interviewing these people and then using their words to bash them like she, I don’t know if you notice, but they’re like little parts where she does these, like voiceovers that make it sound like she’s in. It’s a podcast interview. But really, it’s her voice.

Lesley

I didn’t realize that that I didn’t realize that that was from it was from the chat was from

Dani

some I saw someone I follow on Instagram posts that those were her words that she used to talk them. That’s fun. Oh, she’s

Amanda

that is Wow, you’re right. No, there was I mean, I, I didn’t read the article until after I’d seen the video. So obviously, my take on rose colored, but I felt that her feelings were in that article. Maybe they were a little subdued. But I got so much in the lines. It felt to me. I mean, journalism isn’t something you just get into, like you have to study it and practice it because you don’t just go get to go to work every day and type up how you feel. And that’s the news. Right? And so, I’m not a journalist because I have too many feelings, and I don’t know how to keep them inside. I suspect that maybe it’s not the right career path for Mary Fons either, and she should instead be a person who gives TED talks about quilt. So going back to the appropriation, we have a few more questions here. Are there any stereotypes involved in what you’re doing? I would say no, right? Are you using a sacred item in a flippant or fun way, like wearing a headdress to Coachella? is turning quilts into clothing, a flippant or fun use of them?

Lesley

When you compare it to a headdress, like no, because that is a that is like a truly, you know, sacred ceremonial.

Lesley

Sacred sir. Right. Right. Right. And as much as I love quilts, that is not what it is.

Amanda

Right? I mean, I think you know, I’m spoiling here. I feel like perhaps the the assertion that quote, close appropriate quote, culture is a little bit of a yes statement. But we have a few more questions here. Okay. Okay. Are you borrowing something from an ancient culture and pretending that it is new? There’s I think, Okay, now, quilting has been around for a really long time. It is fair that someone’s taking this like long art form that’s been around for a long time and sewing it into contemporary clothing like I see. I could see that that could be offensive to someone. I don’t know. Do you have any? Anyone? Anyone have any feelings there? No, I,

Lesley

I agree. I don’t know, people are really like, pretending that it’s new, but they’re certainly not giving, like any credit to the original like, maker. And just kind of like acting like it was their idea like this design. I mean, I but the real like designer of the pieces, the quilters, in my opinion, you know, I will learn the design. And

Amanda

I can’t say

Dani

I totally agree with that. But I very much agree that that’s like, a huge part of it. And to be honest, like I remember, like a year ago, um, diet, Prada wrote about how some guy created this line that basically, they were saying was just totally duplicative of everything Bodie had done. And they were saying, like, oh, this, like, pretty white boy comes on the scene, and all of a sudden, like, Vogue writes about them. And they were going on and on about this. And I was, like, I commented about the fact that, like, how are we praising these designers, and no one’s praising the artisans who made the quilts originally. And but I do feel like and it was something you said earlier, Amanda, I think, where I about the, like, respect for the origin, I do feel like, like, there are many of cyclers, who do really respect the craft of the quilts and talk about the history of them and that sort of thing. And I feel like now there’s a lot who don’t, but the a lot of the ones who have been around for a while, are very aware and conscious of the history. I mean, I don’t know because I don’t really know the history myself. Like above what Lesley just told us, but I do know that a lot of them are, you know, really thoughtful about it. So but in the scheme of how many people are making clothes out of quilts, I don’t know what percentage do really care.

Amanda

Yeah, I mean, I don’t think that they’re all these which we’re going to get into this term. They’re not all these, like rampant quilt murderers out there operating with abandon, I just think like, they wouldn’t be making stuff out of quilts if they didn’t think quilts were cool. Beautiful. Yeah, and great to look at and really inspiring. Like, I, I know that there is an appreciation for quilts there. They’re not just slicing them up. Because they’re like, psychopaths or something. You know, like, they’re like, these are really beautiful. I would like to wear this on my body. I would like someone else to wear this on their body. And so I don’t think that everybody’s out there like deciding to dismantle quilt culture, for fun. But that does come to the next question, which we just touched on. Are you crediting the source or inspiration of what you’re doing? And probably not right? Like he says, Can I have a hard time? Do

Dani

they know? Right, right.

Amanda

Exactly, exactly. Unless you said, Hey, you could you go ahead and make me a quilt real quick. I’ll come back in three to six months, and I’m going to cut it up and then you’ll get credit for it. Like that’s the only way that that would really work, right? If a person of the original culture, ie the quilt culture here, were to do what you were doing, would they be viewed as cool? Or could they possibly face discrimination? I thought that was a really interesting question. Like if someone in someone highly respected in the quilt community, decided to start cutting up other quilts and turn them into clothing. What would happen to them?

Lesley

I think it would be the same thing where just a lot of people were really happy and love what they did. And a lot of people I mean, are they cutting up their their own quilts? Are they old quilts?

Amanda

I agree there’s there’s degrees there, right? If it’s their own quilt, great, good for you. If it was like, they bought it, that quilt from you that you spent a year on and then turned it into a pantsuit? Yeah. I mean, that just wouldn’t happen. Right? That wouldn’t happen in the first place. Are you ignoring the cultural significance of something in favor of following a trend? Like we said, clothing is trending. Do we think that people are not valuable? That’s kind of what I was just saying. I’ll

Dani

do is that like, I think that some people probably have, you know, some disregard for the history of the quilt and are just making it because the school yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah, I also definitely think that there are people who have very high regard for the quilt itself and perhaps do some research on what that style of quilt is, etc, etc. So, not black and white.

Amanda

It’s not It’s a complicated issue, right? I mean, I think I think like I said, I have a lot of problems with Mary Fons video and the way she discussed it and the Mean Girls tone to it. But immediately, I had a feeling I wasn’t going to be super into it because it was taking such a black and white stance on the whole thing. And that, like, people who make quilt clothes are these villains these like Neanderthals who don’t give a fuck about history or art or craft, they just want to make money and sell clothes and be trendy. They’re like the forever 21 of textiles. And that’s just not Yeah, like,

Dani

you know, hard about like, like capitalism. And so I don’t know, it was just it went off

Amanda

as if there’s not capitalism involved in quilting. I mean, you know, right, everywhere we go, right. And

Lesley

one last thing about this, like, I just wanted to say that, no matter like how true of like, no matter how, what is the what is the phrase I’m trying to think of right now, no matter how true it is. Whether it is like some kind of appropriation, it doesn’t look good when a white woman is kind of ranting on screen and Ben talks about cultural appropriation. That was kind of my bottom line.

Amanda

Can I say how grateful I am that someone said that because I didn’t want to be the one who wrote it. So I’m glad I was going there. That’s okay, I kept coming back. I almost typed that in our notes like 27 times. So I’m glad someone just said it. Okay. So I know that Dani has a follow up on this one.

Dani

Yes, because it not just any white woman, but a white woman who has designed a line of quilting fabric that directly culturally appropriates many cultures and I didn’t even know about this until Jade of fashion without trashin posted a video everyone should watch on her Instagram. Not too long ago at this point. It’s about a week ago, where she recites the names of some of the quilt some of the fabrics that oh I’m looking at I sounds has designed and the names of these fabrics are no credibly. I didn’t see that. So that’s where it’s like

Amanda

I Yeah, yeah, I think maybe Okay, I just searched Mary Fons quilting fabric. And I brought me to I’d see listing for something called Mary Fons, China man springs fabric. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah,

Lesley

I’m not good. And you know, it’s when someone when someone does something, like an embarrassment for like all white women, at least people who are a little bit more like aware, like self aware, like, please, if you’re going to go ranting, like, there has to be some kind of like self awareness of what you’re saying. Yes. Like you’re putting this out there and it’s bad.

Amanda

I did wonder, had did really fun show this video to your friends before she posted it? Because like, this is one of those things where you’re like, Is this too hot of a take? Let me ask my friends. Right. It felt like maybe, you know, there should been some checks and balances there. I just for future reference. I will say, I’m sure that this has been a nightmare for Mary Fons on a variety of levels, I get anxiety just thinking about her notifications blowing up. But I also see the way she is completely unapologetic, and unwilling to discuss this truly. I like now like and she said something about maybe having a panel conversation or something and people were like, Yeah, that’s not enough dude. Like, actually talk to people with differing opinions, you know. So, okay, I can we say that quilt Kurt culture is being appropriated or not. Anyway, yeah. Lesley,

Lesley

Lesley, you know, I mean, to, to some degree, maybe, you know, it’s actually,

Dani

maybe appropriation.

Lesley

Right. It’s not because at this point, like appropriation is really loaded and it just doesn’t feel right to compare it to, like quilt like a quilt community. I don’t know it. Just to me, it feels wrong. Do I think that people are using quilts? Like I think Mary even said that like do I think people are like, using really nice quilts to like for for something that could be like a fleeting trend? That’s bad but

Amanda

yeah, that’s been my work. I you know, one of my first reactions to that video is like, what if everybody hides away their quilt clothes and everywhere?

Lesley

Let me ask you something. Have you? Have you guys seen People wearing because I I haven’t I live in Philly. I don’t know, maybe I just miss it. But I don’t see people wearing quilt clothes. And you know, there are so many, like pieces out there. Yeah. Do you got?

Dani

That’s really interesting.

Amanda

I mean, I did see someone wearing a quilt jacket in Austin like a week ago, but that I just assumed as because all of us were too broke to afford quilt clothes. That’s why I wasn’t seeing them. You know, because they’re expensive, right? Like, there was a time two years ago. I was like, I really wish I had a quilt code. Oh my God, I wish I had a quilt code. I would look so cute. And I was like, I don’t have $500 I didn’t have a job. See,

Lesley

I think that they’re much of statement pieces for people to want to wear them more more than a few times. Which which is why it is scary. And and that’s like my biggest problem.

Dani

Depends. Yeah, person. Okay, cuz I have some stained clothes that I’ve had for like, literally 1015 years that are still like a unit of things in my closet.

Amanda

Oh, yeah. I exclusively wear statement clothes. Yeah. Okay. So you’re talking to the two wrong people about that? Because I like everything to look. Yeah, yeah. But that’s

Dani

a totally fair point. Because we know that right? Not like most people. And in terms of the way we dress. Yeah,

Amanda

I know, you know, when I originally was seeing quilt clothes starting to come up like 2019 20, early 2020. i Because I maybe always want to believe the good in every person, I believed that the people who were spending 345 $600 on a quilt coat, were doing it with this intention that not only would they wear it for the rest of their lives, they would pass it down to their children. And I loved that, right? That’s amazing. Like that, to me is the best use of quilts outside of being on your bed keeping you warm, right? I was like, this is a beautiful, like, if I spent $500 on a quilt coat, you know, I would be wearing it forever, and passing it on to my daughter and my grandchildren and all. And so I wanted to believe that but at the same time, we know that people love to over consume. And while we might think that a $500 coat is too expensive to buy on a whim and never aware, there are others out there who would disagree, you know, not like they would literally disagree to your face, but their behavior would show that they disagree. Right. And so that is something that concerns me. I would be devastated to go to the goodwill next week and see a quilt coat there. Yeah. Yeah, God, right, right. I mean, I just, I don’t want people to throw that stuff out. And I hope that the people who, because I will say this, listen, people are making clothes out of quilts. They wouldn’t be making clothes out of quilts if there was an appetite for it, right? Like, someone would make a quilt coat, no one would buy it, that would be the end. But people are buying these coats. And so if we’re going to be upset about clothing existing, the makers are only 50% of that equation. The people who are buying it and then possibly not wearing it are just as much of a problem there. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. So Right.

Dani

Yeah. And like you, you mentioned about somebody who, like, you know, that they bought like 20 years, so

Amanda

I’m just gonna start Yeah, yeah, I’m just gonna say someone in our community sells quote codes. And she reached out to me to tell me how I want to say it was psychic outlaw. It was one of the big quilts, make clothes makers reached out to her and said, Hey, has this person ever bought any quilt coats from you? Because they’ve been buying so many from me and other quote, clothes makers, that we think they’re secretly a buyer trying to fill a store. Hmm. And I was like, what, like Tommy Warren, she was telling me about it. And this person was buying 678 quilt coats from each maker, or about half a dozen makers. They weren’t buying them to resell. They were buying them for themselves. And their children. Yeah. That that’s, that’s gross.

Dani

I mean, right that at the same time, it’s like, I’d rather than do that and over consume stuff. Oh, no, I agree. I agree. Right. And a fitting a small business, you know, like helping a small business

Amanda

grow. Totally. I agree. Yes. If they’re gonna over consume and spend all their money, like to this extreme degree, I really feel that this person has shopping addiction, but at least they weren’t buying stuff from Target or, you know, anthropology or something, but it’s still, it’s still was like, Ooh, you know, like, are those coats going to be worn a ton and have this long, important life? I don’t know. Are they going to end up at her estate sale Sunday? And then like, future Dani so the worlds are gonna buy them you know? Oh, Dani and

Lesley

your estate sale.

Amanda

So I mean, once again, like there’s no clear black and white answer here. It’s all so common. Located, but it’s the success the rise of quilt clothes is actually part of a larger system. That isn’t just these horrible makers who don’t respect quilts who laugh as they stab them and rip them up and, you know, take videos just for their own satisfaction to watch later get off. Let’s like not happening. Do we think would we call this quilt murder?

Dani

Oh, I know.

Lesley

I cannot stand when she said that. I was like, I mean, like, people get actually murdered and now you’re out. This was? That was a huge sticking point for me.

Amanda

Once again, yeah, did Mary Fons show this video to a friend beforehand? Because that was something that really resonated with me where I was like, wow, like, you’re acting like Fox News right now, where you’re just saying really extreme things. And my hope was like, not everyone was going to buy into it. And I’m relieved to see that there was actual punishment. Yeah. So another word Dani already brought this up. Earlier in our conversation. This is a word that comes off up often in many different situations, but especially in reference to the marathon’s video is gatekeeping. And I found a great definition of Urban Dictionary, where you get all of the best definitions that really solidifies the meaning of gatekeeping. In the scenario, when someone takes it upon themselves to decide who does or does not have access or rights to a community or identity. And I don’t know about the two of you, but I have experienced gatekeeping witnessed it I’ve been on the other side of it, and a variety of ways in my life specific music genres and scenes like punk or hip hop esthetics. Like even as a teenager there was always that jerk who called you a poser for wearing brand new Doc Martens. And you were like, I worked a year to save the money to buy these like, I’m not fake. I really wanted these. No. There’s always that kind of thing with activism, Hobbies, Crafts, I witnessed a ton of gatekeeping in Portland back when the Women’s March there was starting to happen. There was this Facebook group for the women’s march that was literally a toxic cesspool of just really nasty behavior. And there was a lot of ageism, that was being used to keep older women from joining the march and it was just so discouraging. I didn’t see that. In Portland, it was bad. And I thought it was just a Portland thing. But then I talked to a friend who lived in the Bay Area. And she was like, Oh, I thought you were describing the Oakland chapter. She’s like, honestly, is like the same thing. So I’ve seen a lot of gatekeeping out there in a variety of different ways. I don’t know if any of you have experienced or witnessed this and other areas, mostly music on music. It’s like for sure it’s the classic like,

Dani

that’s a huge one.

Amanda

I was into the spam before you were, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, totally. Ultimately, gatekeeping can really stifle or suffocate a movement, a culture a scene, because access is so limited and people become discouraged. I was telling someone a story earlier today, about a time I was at a show. And a girl put her cigarette out on my head. And she said, You don’t belong here. Like why are you wearing pink? And I? I felt discouraged. I left. I mean, obviously I’d like a wound on my hands. But it made me think like, I’ll never go see this band again. Because people will be shitty to me because I like pastels.

Lesley

Oh no. There’s a lot of gatekeeping there’s a lot of gatekeeping and woodworking for oh

Amanda

really not surprising like a white man. So I

Lesley

have felt that a lot. And it is super discouraging and it’s hard to like get in if you’re different. I feel like

Dani

you you’ve had a few total legs different. Oh yeah. Like you’re like Trisha Oh my god.

Lesley

Yeah, I tried to get into the electrical union for three years and was denied because they only take like two to four women a year and it’s it’s just a whole thing about the the culture and in different trade union trades. But yeah, it that was really discouraging. And I have a friend in there who’s trying to make a difference now she’s like really incredible. And she’s like fighting for women’s rights in the trade and trying to get women like maternity leave and different things like that. But but for me, it’s like I can’t I can’t I can’t keep trying to get in like I think three years is enough. And then that’s it but but yeah,

Dani

and let me just say based on how I introduced Lesley before, I have no doubt in my mind that she was like the very very top of absolute

Lesley

and you know what? You have to take like an entrance exam like I studied the shit out of it. And then when I went into the interview, I had every single question and answer memorize like a crazy person. I think maybe I was too prepared. But

Amanda

there’s no such thing.

Lesley

So, yeah, anyway, gape gatekeeping is a real thing in terms of like quilting. I do want to say that like, and with some things, everything in moderation. So like, I think a little bit of, NOT gate, but I guess I’ll just call it gatekeeping. Because that’s what we’re talking about, but a little, a little bit of people saying, like, you know, this is, this is what it is kind of, like, keep some something like authentic about what it was not necessarily keeping people out, but maybe just trying to keep, like, the original craft alive to preserve but, but when, when it comes to like keeping people out, that’s a huge problem. And I don’t get behind that at all.

Amanda

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I

Dani

mean, Jason and I were talking about this a lot, because like, I feel like I often, maybe not often, but I sometimes accused him of gatekeeping, when it comes to like tattoo culture, or like the art world and stuff, not necessarily accused him, but like, it comes up in conversation a lot. And we’ve had so many conversations about the line between gatekeeping and, and, and being someone who’s immersed yourself in a field, and it had a lot of experiences have maybe even studied something for so long that they’ve really earned their place. And then to see someone come in and out of nowhere without having any of those experiences can be unnerving. For many reasons, depending on what you’re talking about, specifically, definitely. And I feel like when it comes to like, for example, we talked about the range of different types of people making coats out of quilts, and there are the people who are really, really thorough and thoughtful with their craft. And they’ve been doing it a long time. So then to see someone who’s just seen it on Instagram and said, I can do that. And, you know, sometimes I’ve seen some, I’ve gotten like ads for different makers making clothes out of quilts. And you know, I’m a little nervous, bring this up, I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings, but like, you can see, you know, the workmanship is not there. And when we’re trying to push for clothing, that is going to stand the test of time. And I just get a little bit nervous about that. Because if you buy from a maker and you get it and it, you know, looks a certain way, and perhaps it falls apart or doesn’t, you know, whatever, then I don’t want that to put you off from purchasing, like handmade goods going forward. So I know I got really specific there. But like, yeah, to Lesley’s point like, not that there’s a certain degree of gatekeeping. That’s, that’s necessary, but a certain degree of like, I don’t know, I don’t know what the word would be. I

Lesley

feel like preservation is like a good word. Yeah. Which you’ve said.

Dani

But I know that Amanda, you had some really good points about that, too. Well,

Amanda

you said something that, you know, you said a doctor isn’t a gatekeeper if they get upset when someone gives him medical advice without having any education or experience in medicine. Right.

Dani

Right. Yeah. Like it’s like, you know, like, where, why is it that when it comes to an artistic field, you know, like, you have to be open to absolutely everyone jumping in. But with something like science, you have to go through years and years of like education and practice before you’re even allowed to call yourself a doctor. So it’s like, obviously, those are extremely different things. But I’m not comparing an artist to a doctor. But I mean, there is some some gray area between there.

Lesley

Absolutely. That’s a great point.

Amanda

And I think like preservation is a really great term, I think because whether you’re a doctor trying to preserve people’s health, and the validity of good information or something trying to preserve a craft and art like quilting. We need we need those people but I think unfortunately or fortunately, preserving a art form an area of expertise, like medicine, anything requires a level of diplomacy and gray area. Thank you That like, for example, I don’t see in Mary Fons video like that just turns people off building. Like, who are we to say that perhaps the people who are making quilt clothes now are not going to become so enchanted with quilts themselves, that they don’t become quilters themselves somewhere down the line right? Now, they might be like, Yeah, fuck that cool cultures full of bitches or something. And like I don’t I that, unfortunately, like, if you’re going to have a public platform, where you’re going to consider yourself a leading voice in your field, in your area of interest or expertise, then you also I mean, it comes back to like this idea of like journalistic standards or the journalistic voice, you need to, you need to think of yourself as a diplomat, and how your words are going to have a major impact on other people, and possibly the future of your area of expertise.

Dani

Yeah, totally fair.

Amanda

You know, like, not to pick apart Mary Fons, but it’s just like that, I would suspect that the quilting community as as a whole might not want her to be their spokesperson, based on just the, the vibe that she’s putting out there. To put it simply, um, you know, so one thing that came up is this idea of like honing your craft and being better at sewing quilt clothes before you actually cut up a quilt and turn it into clothing, right? Honestly, Dani, I’ve seen some really bad towel, clothes, towel hats on the internet. I know people send them to you. But I see I see that. Like, there’s a lack of skill there with sewing right now, or construct or understanding of construction, you’ve obviously worked in fashion for a long time and have experience in education in that area. So you have an advantage. But I was wondering if maybe there’s privilege attached to being expected to take the time to hone your craft? Yeah. Because if you need money, time is a problem.

Dani

Yeah. And I mean, like, I can’t just, I can’t just stand on my pedestal and say, like, Oh, I’ve had like 10 years working in the industry, I went to, you know, fit one of the best fashion schools in the country, etc, etc, and not acknowledged my privilege in all of that I worked, the only reason that I am able to have this brand that I have now is because I worked for fast fashion brands for 10 years, and I saved up my money, so that I would be able to take this huge risk. And, you know, like, even though I had to move out to the country, because I couldn’t afford to live in Brooklyn anymore. Like, I had a huge amount of privilege in allowing me to do that into this space that I’m now living in, like, so much privilege in my life that has allowed me to be in the position that I’m in. So absolutely, I can’t just like, you know, wag my finger at someone for making clothing because, you know, they lost their job during the pandemic. And they saw this other, you know, thing emerge on the internet, people making these things and they were like, that’s something I could do. Like, how can I shame anyone for that? That’s, that would be awful. Right? Right. You know, so there’s definitely like, we have to acknowledge our privilege, even when talking about earning your, quote, stripes, or, you know, being able to hope like you said, honing your craft enough to be able to really get to a good place in it before you try and profit from

Amanda

it. Right. Right. I think, unfortunately, we just can’t expect that our ask that of people. I mean, I last summer, I attended virtually this incubator accelerator accelerator for women, podcast hosts. And I was really shocked to find that most of the people there hadn’t, don’t edit their episodes, they just record them and upload them. That’s it. They don’t do any audio, fix fixing if you will, to them, and most of them had never even listened to their podcast before. And I felt like really outraged and upset about that, actually, because I put so much time and work into editing and getting it right. And I realized that I actually come from a place of privilege, even there because I had Dustin to teach me how to do that stuff. And I come from a kind of professional background where you constantly have to be like polishing and polishing because you never know what’s going to happen. And so I already had that professional experience that told me that I should take that time and make sure it was right. And I too had to be like, shut myself down where I was like, Why are these people even podcasting if they don’t want to do the work? And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, chill here. You know like this. Yeah. How we all learn to do better is with time and practice. And I think it’s a similar it’s a similar thing, right? Like your craft does take time. Some of us got ahead Start for a few reasons. Yeah,

Dani

absolutely.

Lesley

We might also just be older.

Amanda

That helps me know. Right, right. Well, yeah, it’s true. So I want to 30 year, I guess I would just say, I mean, this question is primarily directed at you, Lesley. But Dani, I think you probably would have some thoughts there, too. How do we ensure that both the quilting community and the app cycler community is open and accepting, but also that people are doing the work to do better with time? I mean, I feel like an a welcoming community would help teach people to do better, but maybe that’s expecting too many people to do much free emotional labor.

Lesley

Well, I am always willing to talk to people about anything that has to do with quilts. Like I love it, I one thing I cannot stand are people that like hold skills and techniques to their chest and like, don’t won’t give it away, like a sacred thing that’s like their secret, like, I cannot stand that, like, you know, come to me, if you have any questions about that. I will be happy to talk I think, like, what what both sides really need to do is just, like, be respectful of each other. That’s kind of like the key, my key thought about this whole thing. And honestly, just try to see the other person’s point of view. Like, I never thought that I would be where I am now. But I just like, decided to really take time and like, listen to what the other side had to say. And I was like, You know what, like, that’s, that’s totally legit point, like, who am I to be like, don’t do that, you know, I mean, these are people’s lives. And like, it’s just a lot of drama to make it black and white.

Amanda

Mm hmm. Totally. Yeah,

Dani

I mean, I, I have, I feel very much the same way as Lesley. And if anyone who follows me on Instagram knows that I share a wealth of information, and I’m happy to answer questions. But there have been points in time where it has start to start to make me feel a little burnt out. And I know that you can, you can attest to this as well. Yeah, more so than me. But because, you know, I especially like when I started and you know, the first year of the pandemic, everything was going gangbusters. And it was like amazing, so much so that I didn’t continue to pursue my other business, I, you know, didn’t pursue freelancing anymore. And I was like, Okay, I’m gonna dive in full force with this. And so I was more than happy to share, you know, my thoughts on like, how I grew my business and stuff like that with folks, because I was getting paid by people buying my things. But then, you know, last year, there was a bit of a flip where, you know, I felt my business slowed down a lot, a lot of people felt this way. I know, I’ve talked to a lot of other small businesses. And I started to realize that like, a lot of the following I had amassed, were, you know, people following me for many, many different reasons, but one of the smaller reasons were that they were going to actually purchase something for me, which is fine, I don’t care. Obviously, I’ve got a lot of followers, I do not expect, you know, even the majority of them to want to purchase something for me. But when things were getting, you know, tight budget wise, I was getting kicked out of my apartment. And still I had people like asking me, How do I do this? How do I do that all the time. And not many sales coming through, there was a little bit of resentment that was building up because I felt like giving, giving, giving Yeah. And at the end of the day, it’s tough because I’m, you know, someone who’s promoting slow fashion, conscious consumerism, not consuming so much. But at the end of the day, that is how I make my money is by buying stuff for me, right? It’s really it is a weird place to be in. So it does get tough, because I feel like a lot of people are like, coming to me asking questions, and I’m so happy and I feel very flattered that people want my perspective on things and my advice and opinion, but at the end of the day, like, you know, like, I may have a lot of followers, but I’m not like, you know, making tons of money here. Right? There is like a fine line. And that gets tough because I don’t have a day job separate from this. This is my job. You know,

Lesley

maybe I’m feeling so generous with my time because no one ever comes to ask for you to

Amanda

solve like yeah, just wait Oh, just wait. After the way I talk to you, yeah, everybody is, uh, you are gonna probably have to turn off your phone for a few days. So, Okay, moving on. I want us to envision a non quilt clothing world which to be fair, yes. quilt clothing has always been around. But really, it came up in a major way a few years ago. As we mentioned, imagine if quilt clothing didn’t exist if everybody watched Mary Fons video and was like, You know what, I’m an asshole. And I am never making another quilt garment again. What happens to those quilts? Like, where do they end up? I’m sure Lesley, you have a lot more information about quilt preservation museums, that kind of thing. I know there are some quilt museums, but I would assume there aren’t that many. Well, there,

Lesley

there definitely are quilt museums, like many in the US. And a lot of you know, just art museums have quilts. You know, their museums that are just art museums like aren’t necessarily like looking for more quilts. I don’t know what their like quota is for quilts. But I think that every person should have a large number of quilts you have quilt you know, you have quilts for your bed. And when you change them out, you have different quilts for different seasons, it changes the room like quilts are like such a special thing. They’re, they’re like, as special as like your dining room table or, or, or like your sofa, your expensive sofa in your living room. They are like what, what can make your bedroom, they’re the most important thing there. So switch it out. Like, you know, depending on your mood, I have quilts that I like go together, it’s kind of like an outfit, which is funny because I only wear black, but like in my bedroom, it’s like super colorful, and like, you know, I have quilts that I use on on my sofa. So like, you know, just different sizes. And I would say that like quilts that have, you know, blemishes I have many, not many, I have a few Antique Quilts, which I just started collecting, that are stained that some of the Reds are starting to disintegrate, but like who cares, they’re still like, unbelievable in their design. So like that doesn’t bother me like at all right? There’s also ways to like fade out some of those stains like putting them in the sun and like just like spraying water on them and like letting it dry, kind of like bleaches that out. And if if there is a quilt that has something weird on it, like maybe you cut it down and he like find it and it’s like a little bit smaller now or, or you know, you can repair it. And there even if there’s like a weird stain, you can just put a piece of fabric like right over it. And I’m like, who cares? That’s like totally fine. There. There is one anti quote repair woman that I have been following for a while and her name is Ann Wasserman. And you can find her on Instagram and underscore quilts. So it’s just a n underscore quilts. And she has a really cool book that’s called preserving our quilt legacy. It’s all about quilt repair. Sometimes she gives virtual workshops I think she just did. Or Yeah. So I don’t know, I would say like look it up. Get into the world of quilt like if you if you want a quilt coat, like if that’s something that you’re like really into, I guarantee you’ll want like a quilt for your house. It’s pretty cool. And you’ll use it more.

Amanda

Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I Dani pointed out something that she was saying that she saw vintage sellers note that five years ago, they couldn’t sell a quilt to save their life. So they had to pass on them whenever they saw them now, they can always be rehome. Like I said, it took me two years to still not find a quilt. So hopefully this year will be the year. But I you know, it’s important, as we touched on before to say that like you know, clothing has been made from quilts for a long time and I did some very high level reading about the history of quilt clothing. I’m sure, Lesley you have a whole lot more to add to this. But patchworking patchwork and quilting has been around for about 5000 years. And making patchwork clothing from scraps goes back centuries and it was often seen as a way for women to show off their stitching skills. The modern technique of turning a quilt into clothing is somewhat new. Although we cannot say this enough. Poor people have been always remaking and reusing materials. So quilts have certainly been turned into clothing and other items as long as quilting has been around. What we’re seeing really seeing right now is a different regard for these exists stting materials, or at least a different view of the items, we touched on this earlier in the conversation that these quilts and anything that’s being upcycled are less seen as less their current whole state, ie a quilt, and more for their usefulness and elements, fabrics, colors, texture, raw materials. And so of course, that makes sense from a sustainability perspective, we have to use what we have. So rather than the value of the quilt being the quilts, it’s the materials. And Mary claimed that there’s no respect for the quilts and these upcycles or gleefully murder them, etc. How do we feel? I mean, this is a hard one, right? Because we know that a quilt isn’t something you just thrown up gather and like half an hour, and even if you did, it would still have a value that work, that artistry would still be there. But we know it’s a much bigger project, how do we feel about something that could take a year to make now not being about the final product, the quilts, and being more of just raw materials? That’s a tough one, right? And who owns the materials, right? Like, because the quilt is actually made of original materials, right? And those materials might even have had sentimental value, you know, they could be made from clothes of family members or other important items. So they, the materials that it’s it’s weird to think about it this way, kind of is like when you try to think about the size of the universe and your brains, like I can’t do it anymore. It’s like these materials. We the makers are seeing the quilt as the material, but the reality is the real materials belong to someone else a long time ago, and they use their work to make what is now considered the raw material for these up cyclers. Right, that’s intense. I know. I need I know that. Dani, you’re, you know, like, you’re not like, oh, the the people who make the towels must be so sad right now. Like, you know, that.

Dani

Well, that’s actually interesting, because I, I mean, I guess we’ll go into this later. But I’m actually, you know, what scrapped that? Because I feel like it distracts from what you were already saying.

Amanda

Well, okay, so, I guess what I’m saying is like, this is where the mind fuckery for lack of a better term comes into play where you’re like, Okay, I can see, like I said, I can see all sides of this argument, I can see why Mary Fons would be like, you know, these materials might have sentimental value, regardless, they were collected and, and edited and put together and and then actually, like, this quilt was made by a person and it took a lot of work and artistry. And now this new persons coming in and saying, Oh, this isn’t like a work of art not and once again, we know that people wouldn’t be making clothes out of quilts if they didn’t think they were beautiful and special. But they’re not looking at them as this artwork that should be preserved and framed. They’re saying like this is raw materials for a new thing that’s gonna be even better. It’s sort of like buying a house a mid century house and gutting it you know,

Lesley

I I’m trying to find the comment because I did I did copy some comments from the YouTube feed that I that I thought were like, really poignant and like that kind of like helped me see the other side because to me there was there’s so much tied up in quilts like the history and like the culture and like, you know, the art of it all. And so this is what this is one of the comments, fashion is history, fashion is art fashion is culture in the same way that quilting is many of these arguments conclude that a seamstress a designer clothing maker, whatever you want to call it is less than a quilter reducing beautiful pieces of wearable art to garbage designers don’t fail to recognize the art of quilting but you fail to recognize the art of fashion

Amanda

and AI is a good way yeah and

Lesley

lon I’m sorry, I didn’t I didn’t like note who these people were I just like literally copied and

Amanda

sorry YouTube,

Lesley

but that was a yeah, sorry that that was a that was a good one.

Dani

Oh, that is actually that brings me to a point that I was thinking about when I was really stoned in the bath the other day cuz that’s where I do my best course

Amanda

naturally.

Dani

Me too. God you guys I think I’m addicted to it like finally you know I owned my my peaceful place like my my way relax. Anyway,

Lesley

do you know why you think in the bathtub and I because I’ve been like, thinking about like everything I do. And I was like why do I think in the bathtub because your body is in just such a state of calm. It’s almost like not even there that there’s like no way on you. There’s like no physical.

Dani

It’s probably some men going back to like, you know, when you’re in your mother’s womb. Yeah.

Amanda

deep thoughts you were thinking, too. And you forgot about them. Wow, this is a really yeah, this is really taking it.

Dani

I know. What I was gonna say was that I was thinking about how, in my closet, I have a denim jacket, that when I look at it, I think 2016 It just hits me over the head, because it is covered in patches, one of which says a quarterlife crisis. I don’t have a Nasty Gal patch. I’m not Nasty Gal. Nasty, nasty patch. But I might as well because I’ve got a ton of other like, feminist like, so 2016, like, like, enamel pins of like a boob free. Look, and it’s just 2016 to me. And I don’t know if I’ll ever wear that jacket. Again, I can’t tell into the future. But it is an archive in my closet, it is something I will never get rid of. You know what, honestly, like, if I have a child, I would probably hand it down to them. And hopefully they would, you know, be able to appreciate the nostalgia of it. But in a weird way, I feel like the quilt coat says so much about these pandemic years. Like, yeah, the amount of like, stress and sadness, and like, upheaval that we’ve experienced in the past couple of years. No wonder we all want to wrap ourselves in a fucking quote, that is made by someone in there, like, made by hand by someone like, it is so beautifully symbolic that like, even if it be it is a trend, I hope that people still see it as like this archive and memory of this time, how we all kind of like, you know, the best we could do was wrap ourselves in a quilt, you know, so like, I love that comment about fashion. And and you know how we have to respect this moment in fashion history, too. Because I don’t know, that just really, really speaks to me. And I think there’s something really beautiful about this moment in time and quilts having such a moment in fashion history.

Amanda

Totally. And I can’t believe we haven’t touched on this yet. There are multiple times I’ve been like, oh, yeah, say that. And then I forget, I’m coming back to it again. We cannot underestimate the amount of skill and technique involved in making clothing out of quilts. Like every time I see something sad or cool. I’m like, Whoa, how did you do that? It must have been so hard. There were so many layers and things to take into account. And like you had to do to place the pattern just so and you know, the drape and the fit is so much more complicated. And I’m sure there are bad fitting, quote clothes out there. But like the people who have been doing it the most and being the most successful at it, they’re geniuses, because clearly they’re doing it right, because people keep coming back for them. And I feel like we’re forgetting, it’s really, really hard to make clothing. It’s even harder to make clothing out of a quilt. And seeing those clothes dismissed as dumb. Really, I mean, I can barely so any clothing, it really hurts me like it makes me angry. Because I know these all the time and work that goes into making clothing in general. I actually saw it on this Facebook group for people who really love new works. And it’s it gets really extreme in there. And someone who said I took some fabric to a seamstress and asked her to sew me a dress and she said it would be 250 to $500 That seems really crazy to me. And I was about to jump in and be like, Oh my God, you don’t know how long it takes to make a dress. Especially specifically for one person. There’s going to be fittings, all this stuff, but then someone else jumped in and said it for me. So I didn’t have to. But I think I see Mary Fons dismissing these clothes and I’m like maybe, maybe you don’t know about making clothes, you only know about making quilts. And going back to the comment from YouTube that Lesley shared, it’s sort of like taking the stance we’re quilts are more more of a valid art form than clothing. And I don’t like that.

Dani

Yeah, that is really interesting.

Amanda

So the other thing that I was seeing in the comment section on Instagram because like I said, I went really deep is that there were people in there who are like I would never donate a quilt. That’s like a document for my family and so precious and other people jumped in and said, You know what, I would actually love all of my family’s quilts to go somewhere else me Ready to close? Because my family is filled with trauma and it’s a nightmare. And I don’t want to be reminded of it. If people were like, I can’t believe you would say that about quilts that someone in your family made and it made me realize, like, if, if someone gave you a quilt or you inherited a quilt, or you made a quilt if you don’t want to use it and want to give it to someone else to make into clothes, isn’t that your business?

Dani

Yeah, absolutely it some people wouldn’t want the reminder. Even if they did love the person who made it, perhaps the it’s too painful.

Lesley

I mean, or they just don’t like it, or they just don’t. Like, it doesn’t need to be like a dramatic reason they just might not like yeah,

Dani

like is when I go to estate sales. And I see piles and piles of quilts. Oftentimes these estate sales are, are run by, you know, other companies, but they could also be a times run by the family itself. And they’ve already cried through everything. They already took what they wanted. So it’s fair game at that point. And that’s up to them.

Amanda

There is a trendiness attached to quilts to relic. Sometimes they’re in trend from from a decor perspective. And sometimes they’re not sometimes people are like, I want a big solid white Dovey, you know, like, right, z. This is another reason why probably so many quilts have ended up at thrift stores, estate sales, yard sales, etc. Because people are like, Oh, it’s like a grandma thing. And I don’t agree with that. I’m just saying, like, I can picture that going down. And that person has a completely different decor than maybe what we’re aiming for. Right? Yeah. Um, but I felt like there was like, I was almost wanting to message these people and say, like, hey, so would you be cool with these people who don’t want their family quilts just sending them to you, and you can watch them. But then I was like, That’s inflammatory. But I just, I just wondered about that. Because I think even there is a certain level of privilege attached to being precious about other people’s quilts. Because you assume that that person has only the fondest memories of their family, and they want to be surrounded by those quilts forever. You assume that people have the space to store them, them or

Dani

the time to take care of them and repair them? Yeah, when does

Amanda

or that the people like them is like really important. Just that’s not a privilege, but it’s just, it’s just a point to call out. I feel like they’re a lot of the comments that were going that direction. I just felt like we’re also just a sort of blind to the nuance of the human condition as Mary Fons was in saying that this was cultural appropriation of quilt culture. Right. Right. So then moving forward, here’s the part which I know of many parts got Dani really riled up, very suggested that people stop buying clothes made from pre existing quilts, and get that quilted look in other ways by buying something inspired by quilts. And that you went on to I’m pretty sure she mentioned target, or did I make that up?

Dani

I actually did. I don’t know if she mentioned it, or she showed the logo of like she, I only watched it once. I couldn’t bear to watch it again. But I also didn’t want to give her another view on her YouTube video.

Amanda

I was like, did I plant this in my mind because I saw quote, clothes at Target, right? So she, she says like, those clothes aren’t as important. Go ahead and wear them and be trendy and dispose of them the way people are being with like, you know, quilts made out of clothes.

Dani

And then when she goes to talk about like alternatives, because she apparently was giving some really great suggestions to these cyclers about what they should really be doing, which were like the weird, like, just so confusing her suggestions, but she talked about how the landfills and how like our overconsumption of fashion. So is very contradictory. The way that she did that it didn’t really make sense. So for someone who did months of research her quote, it was a little surprising and confused. Yeah.

Amanda

But you brought up a good point where she was basically like, just go get these quote clothes at Target and wear him a couple times and do whatever you said. And this is something we talk about a lot. You and I have talked about a lot. Do quilts have a different value than new quilted clothing? Why do we cherish or value things made in a home setting more than in a factory? Are we valuing the labor of one over the other and why?

Dani

Yeah, snaps me that was good. But it’s true, like, because our biggest problem in our society with our consumption of clothing is that we don’t think about where it comes from out of sight, out of mind. It’s made by someone else in some other country. They’re getting paid very little, but it’s probably a good wage for them in their country. So who am I to say that, you know, like, that must be a shame. job because to them, it’s probably a great job. This is the rhetoric that I feel like I’ve Oh my god. I mean, dude, I’ve been on me my whole career. I hold I’m reading consumed right now. And I’m just like, because I was like, eager to find to hear like asure barbers like unpacking of that rhetoric, which is kind of like what we’re all pushed in like fashion school, not not maybe like directly, but it’s kind of like the subtly the way that we think of things. So yeah, why are we valuing the labor of you know, what I wrote here was wire quilts made by someone else’s grandma or neighbor in your town more valuable than the clothing made by someone’s grandma or neighbor in another country? Why our clothes?

Lesley

What are we talking about here? Are we talking about like handmade clothes? Are we talking about factory

Dani

no clothing but, but this is the thing is that we a lot of people forget that all clothes are made by hand. Yes, there are sewing machines involved. But robots don’t make our robots. Amanda, you say that all

Amanda

the time. Oh, my God, I get a message at least once a week from someone who’s like, I just learned that clothes aren’t made by robots. I’m willing. Okay, all right. I have a problem. Okay, go for it. Yeah, go for it.

Lesley

Are you saying that quilts are the same as factory made clothes?

Dani

No, but I’m saying the people behind them. There are people behind making a quilt and there are people behind making clothes. So why are we valuing the labor of someone who made a quilt over the labor of someone who made our fast fashion clothing. She’s telling us to consume fast fashion clothes inspired by quilts. But guess what those are made by people who are exploited and paid poverty wages, if any wages in other countries. So why she I think this is also where she was getting defensive, but she’s not understanding the baggage behind what she’s saying. Because, like, and that’s what I guess Amanda is trying to unpack now is the fact that, that she’s saying go shop target, because that’s okay. But we are judging that people made the clothes at Target to Yeah,

Amanda

we’re like Alison, a quilt like, is a much bigger project, right sewing some quilt inspired clothes from Target. But her argument was basically like, we need to preserve these quilts, and the artistry and workmanship involved in them. And instead, you should go to Target and buy clothes that were paid, made by exploiting people except she didn’t say that part. Yeah, I said you should go buy the clothes. Right? I, I, I once again, would have loved for marathons just shows video of a couple of her friends before she posted it. Because hopefully one of those friends would have been like, Mary, I feel like you are getting into some dangerous territory there. You do not know what you speak. Don’t tell people to go shop fast fashion, you’re going to totally negate every other valid point you made in this video. I mean, there were other invalid points that did that. But you know what I mean? Like even if the rest of it was like totally sound logic, it would be like Whoa, Nellie cut that part out. Because I’m assuming that Mary Fons doesn’t know a lot about what happens, right? Or how the clothes we buy are made. She might think, like many other people that clothes are made by robots, and they’re not. And I mean, I still listen, Dani and I talk about this all the time. You don’t no one talks about the people who make the clothes in the fashion industry. You just don’t bring it up. I had a co worker tell me once when I brought it up. She was like, listen, I went to Vietnam for a trip for Nike. And the kids there they are excited to have. Like, they want to have jobs. They were cheering when we all came into the factory. I was like, whoa, whoa, wait, it just like tell me the truth about Nike right there. But also, like I was like, but is it fair for kids to be in a position where they’re starving or work in a factory? No, those kids should go to school and get to play and have fun, like kids here in the United States get to do it. You know, like, this is the defense all the time like, like I honestly there’s a podcast I listened to. It’s not about fashion on any level. They got themselves into some deep trouble, in my opinion, talking about the target Afghan, not afghan that crocheted stuff which has been going around the internet for the past few weeks. Basically, you and I in our first episode together, we

Dani

talked exactly about that, that crochet, right

Amanda

and it’s like mind blowing to people. Yeah, yeah. So when you see, crochet has to be made by hand when you go to Target and see a crocheted sweater for $30. You know that those people were paid pennies to do that crochet

Dani

it with a single hook. Like think of all day. They had a ball of yarn and a hook and you’re paying $19 for it. Oh God,

Amanda

right. Right. It’s really It’s really bad. So this podcast was like, Yeah, but like what you guys don’t understand is that the Those people, they may actually make a lot of money for where they live. And if we paid them I know, I know. But they were like, if we paid them the same minimum wage that we pay people here in the United States, everybody in that country would be a millionaire. And I’m like, oh, people

Lesley

are really willing to go there to make themselves feel better about a situation that is not

Amanda

Oh, yeah, yeah, totally. Totally. I know. I know. And I feel like there was a little bit of that coming in with Mary Fons. Because I did see comments where people were like, yeah, if you like cool clothes, so much, goodbye. I’m at Target, like in the comment section. And I was like, oh, man, when someone get a robot that

Dani

there’s a big disconnect between, like what’s happening in this small community? Because really, it is we talk about this all the time, we’re in a bit of an echo chamber. And it’s very clear that someone like Mary has not been like brought into that fold, and doesn’t really understand, like, the root of why we’re doing this. And yes, because sometimes that route is muddied for people getting into it for the wrong reasons, of course. But if you really are to immerse yourself in the world of like slow fashion, sustainability, upcycling, you would understand that like this is, this is where it comes from and why we do it.

Amanda

Right, right. And I do wonder, could this video have been different? I mean, I know this is where I get confused. Because wasn’t Mary Fons interviewing people who make quilt clothing? Yes. Because I had wondered like, if there had been more conversation, more dialogue with the upcycling community, maybe she would have seen both sides of it. Like, much like, Lesley, reading, the comments section was like, oh, whoa, like this is changing my thinking on it. Right? Couldn’t the same thing have happened for her?

Lesley

I mean, I feel like it depends on the person. Like she kind of seems like someone who’s just like, so hot on her own vision of how things should be that she can’t see the other side. And, I mean, sometimes it is just like sitting down quietly by yourself with an intention to see the other side. That’s what I did. You know, but I was like, totally, totally like, with, you know, almost every single thing she said, and it just took me saying, No, I am going to intentionally go in there. And like, see the other point of view, people don’t really do that.

Dani

Like ever. No,

Amanda

I mean, it’s true. It’s very true.

Dani

There’s no truer statement about Yeah, and people are today. Yeah,

Amanda

it’s true. It’s true for at least the last five years. Yeah, it’s it’s interesting to me, because I feel like I participate in so many conversations that are really changing for me. And it’s I get sad when I know that people miss out on that opportunity. But it also there’s a lot of emotional labor involved with having to see the other side, right. Yeah. I mean, I, I think we’re coming down the homestretch of our conversation now. And I just wonder, like, does anyone have any other thoughts or things they want to get off their chest? Or? Oh, I forgot to cover?

Dani

I do want to say that, like, I mean, this is kind of exactly following those points is that like, this is all the more reason why, like, we need to have more of these conversations about the atrocities of the fashion world, with people who aren’t necessarily in this community. And that, you know, understanding the like, the problems with just over consuming things from these fast fashion brands. And as Amanda, you say, all the time, like, our definition of fast fashion brands, like we don’t even understand how broad the spectrum is. Because, yeah, it’s been such a constant race for all these brands that now most are operating in that cycle in that kind of system. So I feel like whenever we can have the opportunity to like invite people into the fold is a positive. And that’s something I’ve been thinking a lot about, like the way I’m approaching my brand this year. And like I’m going into some more collaborations that maybe in the past, I would think were not in line with my like ethos, but I’m trying to reframe it and think of it differently because I, I don’t want this just to be preaching to the choir. You know, I want us to be inviting more people into this. And it’s going to take time, and it is going to start with one person buying one thing from an up cycler and they’ll see the difference in what they’re receiving, whether it’s the quality of the item, being able to see that it’s made from something vintage, which was made with more, you know, like, care and time, because like the quality of the materials from, like back in the day are better than the materials. Now in many cases, they’ll see the attention to detail on the packaging that they receive the thoughtful note, and you know, just from that one purchase, they’ll be like, Wow, that was like, a much better experience. And every time I see that in my closet, I want to wear it, I get really excited, which is very different than the same amount of money I spent on the five items I got from she in or whatever. And, you know, so it’s got, it’s gonna happen gradually, not overnight. So I’m excited to like, try and bring more people into the fold is kind of I love that how I feel about the whole thing. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like the, the fold has become too insular over the past couple years, and maybe a little judgy. And maybe a lot of us can actually learn from Mary Fons. How to not do it, and how to do it better. Yeah, that’s how that’s my takeaway from all the worst bosses I’ve had. True grew, this was a good learning experience of how I don’t want to be as a boss.

Lesley

Um, yeah, if I had any last words, it would be, I would just encourage the people who are making clothing from quilts. And I know some people are quilt makers themselves, that’s awesome. But I would just encourage them to make a quilt even a small quilt just so like you can understand the craft that you’re working with, you know, it is important to respect what you’re working with. And the best way to do that is to learn it yourself. And

Dani

I think that’s exactly what Rita said to Rita. I saw her write that yeah, of panty when she was saying exactly that. Oh, and I feel like that’s a really good perspective.

Amanda

I agree. Well, also, I mean, if you’ve chosen that you’re always going to make quilt clothing from quilts. I think it can also help you hone your craft.

Lesley

Absolutely. Yeah. And, and also, like, if you’re thinking about starting to make quilts, I would say go for it. Just anyone, it’s really easy. You can use the clothes out of your closet that you’re not using anymore, and just get a needle and thread. You don’t even need a machine. Contact me if you have any questions.

Amanda

I love that. You know, I have been for a long time thinking I mean, I don’t have any free time. But if I did that I wanted to get into quilting. And all this marathon stuff made me feel like oh, no, like that community is like way too precious. No. judgy and I don’t get involved. So yes, try quilting. It’s really cool. Yeah. Well, thank you to both of you. This was so fun. I could seriously talk about this for six more hours, because I’m sure we’re all going to stop talking and think of things we missed. Yeah. I feel like this was a great group to break down this issue.

Dani

Yeah, it’s really fun. And like I think I said this before that I was like definitely really scared when I suggested inviting Lesley into this. It wasn’t that was very it wasn’t that bad, Lesley word.

Amanda

I was like, picturing the CNN segments where like, they have two different people. And they’re like yelling over each other. And then like, I was gonna be the reporter at the desk, like, Okay, anyway, your time is up, or whatever, I was gonna be really nightmarish. And I was like, Well, this is what we have to do, because we are here, all sides. So I’m glad that we had a really productive actually a really productive conversation. I mean, it’s, my brain is turning in so many different places now about other things, just how we can take this situation this experiences conversation, and channel it into our own work and doing a better job of making it more inclusive.

Lesley

Yeah, thanks, Amanda. It was great. Thank

Dani

you for providing us this platform.