Episode 123: Frogging, Target, and Classism Within Craft with Christina of Inchworm Crafts

Welcome to Clotheshorse, the podcast that gets angry at Target.

I’m your host Amanda.

And this is episode 123. Today I’ll be joined by Christina of Inchworm Crafts, a crochet pattern tester and designer. She’s going to explain all of the hard work that goes into creating and testing a pattern. We’ll talk about the classist undertones of the crafting community (especially when it comes to crochet), how activism is a relay race, the need for more solidarity between crafters, and our sense of value when it comes to stuff versus ideas and knowledge. Yep we have a lot on our plate this week!

This is a pretty long conversation, so I want to us to get right down to business.

But first I wanted to talk about fabric for a few minutes. If you follow Clotheshorse on instagram, then you know that for the past few weeks, I’ve been doing a series of posts about fabrics. Specifically, synthetic fabrics. From poly to nylon to faux fur to the semi-synthetics like viscose…it’s been quite an undertaking. And I’m still not finished! TBH I think I will deserve an honorary degree in chemistry by the time I’m done!

One question/message/comment I’ve been receiving over and over is “hey, could you put together a list of fabrics that we *should* buy? A list of the best fabrics?”

Woof. That sounds like an easy question, a simple request…but like everything else I discuss, it’s just not! Because in 2022, every fabric has a catch. And it’s important for us to know the “catch” to those fabrics so we can make the best decisions. Sure some of the name brand versions by companies like Lenzing *seem* better, but we’ll never know for sure. And even the Lenzing fabrics, with their closed loop chemical use, still contribute to deforestation. Overconsuming Lenzing Viscose is still overconsuming trees. Or yes, I guess buying clothes made of recycled plastic is marginally better than buying items made of brand new polyester…but then again, is it? Yes, plastic bottles are being recycled to make that fabric, but tons of energy and resources are required to get there. And new “virgin” polyester is added into the mix to make the fabric more stable and desirable. Furthermore, that fabric is not recyclable. That marginal “betterness,” that super slim difference…it doesn’t make it okay to buy stuff we don’t need.

When people ask for a list of fabrics or brands that are “good” to shop, I kinda freeze up. Because much in the way greenwashing is engineered to make us feel “good” about shopping and guiltless about overconsumption, I worry that giving a seal of approval on this fiber or that brand will lead to the same thing. Yes, there are brands on a personal level that I fucking love and want to support. But I worry that saying those out loud will lead everyone to buy more than they actually need just for the positive feeling of a being part of something. I get that. I’ve done the same thing myself.

But I also recognize that we need answers, right? Because otherwise you read these posts about all of these terrible fabrics and you panic. You think “I guess I’ll just be naked from now on.” And well, most stores/restaurants have a “no shirt, no shoes, no service policy.”

So rather than saying “hey, these are the fabrics you should buy because they are ‘better,’” I’m going to take this approach instead: HOW TO MAKE BETTER DECISIONS ABOUT WHAT YOU BUY

It’s important to always…and I mean all caps ALWAYS check out the care and content labels in every garment you buy before you buy it. Whether it’s new or secondhand. In the United States, it is illegal to sell a new garment that does not contain a care and content label. Shopping online? That info should be available on the product page. And if it’s not? Buyer beware because that’s simply unethical.

Why do I want you to read this label? Because for one, it’s important for you to know the fabric you are buying. As I’ve been bringing up a lot here on the podcast and on instagram, a lot of these synthetic fabrics come in many disguises and they can be very deceptive. You might think it feels light and airy on the hanger, but it could still be fully unbreathable polyester.

I also want you to understand the lifespan of that fabric, because you are making a commitment! If that fabric is synthetic, it’s going to be on this planet for centuries. Buying it isn’t a decision to take lightly. Sure, nothing is disposable, but a synthetic is mega undisposable, not something to be worn a couple of times and then tossed. If it’s a rayon viscose kinda thing, I want you to recognize the chemicals and energy used to create it. Once again, it’s not something to be casually purchased and never worn. Heck, even if it’s 100% cotton, I want you to take a moment and visualize the time, resources (like water), and humans involved in making that garment. Taking that time makes impulsive purchases a lot less impulsive.

Recognizing the true impact of a garment’s fabric can help you slow down the shopping process and even pass on things you don’t truly love and intend to wear for a long time. That moment of WHOA THAT’S A LOT can help you pick only things worth a true commitment to care, mending, and wearing.

And I want you to know that this is a fabric that you will wear and care for properly. Are you willing to hand wash or dry clean this item? If the care instructions call for that and you’re more of a washing machine/dryer kind of person, then this is not the garment for you. Are you willing to take on the responsibility of minimizing the microplastic shedding of this garment? Then go for it. If you’re not, skip it. It’s okay to be honest with yourself about your limitations in terms of time, space, etc.

So yes, there are fabrics that are “better” than others, but there’s also a lot of greenwashing out there. And there is no miracle fabric that allows us to shop til we drop and barely wear any of it. There’s no fabric that makes it “okay” to overconsume. Even those Lenzing fabrics aren’t okay to buy, wear once or twice, and then stuff in the donation bin.

The best fabric for you is the fabric you’re going to wear a lot and care for in the best way possible.

Ask yourself:

Will I wear this often and for a long time? Guess what? The answer to that is different for all of you! One of my favorite brands to buy secondhand is Selkie, and they are these froufy organza dresses that some might think are too wild for daily wear. I literally wear them to work, the grocery store, etc and I don’t wash them. I just spot clean them and fluff them up when needed. That’s a choice that works for me and who I am as an individual. It’s a terrible idea for many other people.

Can I wear this comfortably in the climate I live in? Like, if you live in New Orleans where it’s humid and warm, poly chiffon or a Selkie puff dress probably isn’t a great idea.

Does this fabric/garment work with my own personal concerns? Are you super sweaty? Prone to overheating? Then maybe an acrylic weather is a bad idea. Do you get a rash from wool? I do! Even between my fingers and on my face. So I don’t wear wool, even though it lasts forever and is biodegradable. That’s an important personal choice for me. I actually just skip sweaters altogether.

Am I willing to care for this properly, whether it’s hand washing, line drying, ironing, etc etc etc? If you don’t have space for a drying rack or a wash line, this is something to consider! If you’re working three jobs (like today’s guest Christina) then handwashing might not work for you. And that’s fine, too. Be honest with yourself!

If it’s faux fur or polyester, are you committed to dealing with microplastic shedding? If it’s faux fur, you need to brush it off before you leave the house and toss the loss “hairs” in the trash. I have a denim coat with a faux fur collar that I bought back in 2019 and I brush it every time I’m about to leave the house. For other synthetic clothing, are you willing to buy a cora ball or a guppy bag or a filter for your washing machine? These are all things to consider.

And lastly, do you love this garment enough to mend and repair it? To be careful around fences, hot coffee, spaghetti buffets, and paintball battles? Because that’s how you know you’re ready to make a commitment.

Once again, there is no miracle fabric. There is only the right choice for you!

Okay, now let’s get down to the main event today: my conversation with Christina of Inchworm Crafts. I’m really excited for you to meet her, because we are going to be touching on all kinds of things in this conversation. It’s also exciting for me (and hopefully for you) to learn all of the work and thought that goes into things we kinda take for granted, like pattern making and testing…and just craft in general! And btw “frogging” refers to unraveling your work.

Amanda

Christina, why don’t you introduce yourself to everyone?

Christina

Hi, I’m Christina of Inchworm Crafts. I mostly focus Inchworm on, I guess sustainability and crochet, but what what that looks like in that space. So for me, it’s a lot of like Stashbusting patterns. And I love doing a great like size inclusive 70s And like vintage inspired patterns. And I’ve noticed recently someone commented, they like making my patterns because they’re very meditative. So I think that’s another good way to describe some of my patterns, is I love writing crochet patterns that ideally we’ll bring people joy and bring them a little piece in some of it is just a result of what I like to crochet, which is I use crochet to frequently help regulate my ADHD and anxiety. So I don’t need something super duper complicated. I wanted to have a little bit of a challenge. But I want to also be able to zone out.

Amanda

Totally, totally, I mean, I think for me, that’s my favorite part of knitting for sure. is like being somewhere else. Yeah. And just I don’t know, I find it very meditative. But it’s a great way, a great term for it. So, you know, a lot of people have crocheted or knitted from patterns. Black people have sewn from patterns. How long does it take you to create a crochet pattern?

Christina

Oh, goodness, golly, that is, it’s so hard to say because like frogging is a thing. I’m literally working on frogging something I was working on as we speak, because everyone has a different process. I tend to start from noodling around with yarn, so to speak, like, I have my hook, I have the yarn, and then I have an idea in my head. And I feel like my sketch it out, I get more confused. So I just see if I can make it with it. And it can take all kinds of different paths. Sometimes it I get it right the first time. That is a rarity. And by the first time I really honestly mean like the third or fourth time. There’s other times where I think it took takes me like 10 minutes. Not 10 minutes, like 10 like 1020 tries. That’s what I really meant. Tried minutes. Yeah, no, absolutely not. I have never had a 10 minute pattern.

Amanda

That would be like just the strip. You’d be like, here’s like a choker.

Christina

Basically. So yeah, so I start with that. And then so I start with like the noodling around process. And then I eventually write it up. I know my writing isn’t always like, the best first time around. And also, this is just goes for anyone I think, I don’t know what’s like missing from a pattern until someone else tells me. Yeah, and so I typically send my pattern to a tech editor. And they like I pay the tech editor, and they’re like, Hey, this isn’t a word. I go, Oh, yeah, you’re right. It’s not. You’re right. That’s, that’s bonkers. Oops. And I fix it. From there. I go through their notes, and I fix it from there. And then I like to send that I usually do what’s called a test or call. And so pattern testers are beautiful, wonderful individuals who test your pattern to see like, hey, what’s the fit? Like, hey, when this when you’re like reading this section of pattern, does it make human sense?

Amanda

Yeah, that’s makes it, I mean, it’s like, I love that you’re sharing this because I think the average person has no idea that this absolutely behind the scenes.

Christina

No, honestly, I don’t think I knew it till I became a pattern tester because I was a pattern tester before I started designing. And I remember, like learning about it, because I was like, do I want to start designing and I think I was like, looking at a random forum. And someone said, all designers should be pattern testers first, and I was like, I don’t know what that is. So I should probably start there.

Amanda

I like that. I think that that is, I mean, I think I love when I have conversations with people about something that I literally have no idea about saying, you know, I learned that there’s all this work. It’s the same thing with like podcasting, I even before I started a podcast figured I would just like plug a microphone into my computer, talk for a little bit. And that would be that and I’m like, oh, no, it’s like so much work. There’s so much behind the scenes, editing and refinement and brainstorming and research and building and patterns. It sounds like you’re the same way there’s if there’s it’s more than just making a sample.

Christina

No, it’s and even then, because there’s sometimes I write the pattern and things I learned from the sample. I ended up deviating a little bit within the pattern. So it still mostly looks the same, but there’s like very teeny tiny things. I changed because I was like why would I do that to end anybody else? That was a terrible time for me? Why would I do that to someone else? And I’m able to figure out usually with the testers, what works better, but also there’s sometimes the input testers gives me that I realized like, Oh, you’re right. The way I have this written right now, or the way this goes right now, isn’t the best way could go. And so they usually sometimes will steer me into like better places, which I am so grateful for. I absolutely love my pattern testers I get to work with I absolutely love working with them. Generally, most of the pattern testers I’ve met are just like, really awesome people. In my opinion, I’m very biased, because I love them. And I also, I guess, frankly, there is also like, as a designer, you need them to like, do back.

Amanda

That makes sense. I got that. So let’s, let’s talk about the pattern testers. Because this is probably another, like, once again, people probably think that you like knit, you crochet something up. And you’re like, I wrote down what I did, here’s the pattern, the end. But as you said, like the pattern testing is such an important part of it.

Christina

It is and there’s definitely people who they do do that, where they like, I made it, I wrote it, I’m selling it to you. And I will be honest, in my biased opinion, because I go through the channels I go through, I don’t tend to want to pay a lot of money for those patterns or at all, personally, because typically, you’re going to come across some glaring issues with it, that you wouldn’t come across if it had gone through a tech editor and or testers. Because not everyone can afford a tech editor. Not everyone can, I guess have the Tesla time for testers necessarily, because it can be a very time intensive process.

Amanda

That makes sense. Yep. So tell me what happens. So you create this pattern, you’ve you’ve already sent it off to the tech editor. So they’re there, they’ve given it back to you? Where do you find the testers?

Christina

So I typically do my tester calls. That’s what it’s called, like, when you’re calling out for testers to help you. I typically do them on Instagram, and I’ll do them a little bit on tick tock as well. There is not as much of a pattern tester community yet, on tick tock, I think it’s slowly moving there as Instagram shoots itself in its foot.

Amanda

Seriously, and

Christina

so it’s like slowly showing up there. But I mostly find them on Instagram. And I will also use, I will also frequently submit to be account that test nets, because that pattern testers tend to be your favour plus eyes, whichever term you prefer, tend to be the most difficult to find. And a lot of that is because they are not always I would just say like treated well.

Amanda

Not surprised,

Christina

And so I find just like trying to find them is like it’s hard. And some of it’s also because there’s not always a lot of equity in testing. And I don’t think people do it on purpose. I think it’s also I think even just being able to be like a pattern designer, someone who writes patterns can start to get a little pricey. Yeah, yeah. And like yarn itself can start to like anyone who does any kind of fiber. Like, regardless of the yarn they’re using, they’re like, yeah, it’s expensive.

Amanda

Because like yarn is expensive.

Christina

It really is. And like, I think no matter what price point you’re going to, if you’re someone who tends to buy, like, even Pound of Love, which is generally considered a like, quote, cheaper, you’re probably buying that because that is what you can afford. Or like what you can afford for that project. It’s not, cuz you’re like, like, so that even if you go to the different price points in that you’re gonna have people to like get super pricey. So you have people who they have a lot of skill. They want to make stuff, but they have been done so dirty. So you’ll be like, Hey, do you want to make my thing? And they’re like, Yeah, I would need way more yarn for that. And you’re only giving me three weeks to make that. I both have to save up to buy that yarn. And then I have to just have a turnaround time that will make my wrist fall off. No, you do not get my help. And then I think what I find more surprising is designers like well, fat testers never want to work with me and like did you ever think about why? Like do you think about why do you think about the fact that like in fat, fat test knitters that account will literally lay it out? For people that like it cost more, and they have they, they’re literally making a larger garment, you need to give them more time. And if you can’t afford to, you need to figure out how to like, do yarn support, yarn support being when you either send someone yarn or you pay for them to firearm. So all of my tests, all of my pattern tests, I do my best to make sure I give my testers an exorbitant amount of time. One because I’m busy, and I can’t always answer their questions right away. So it’s not fair of me to be like, you’re you still have a deadline that I’m not even meeting. Right. And to it’s because things can happen during a test, but also like life happens. And so I tend, I’ve begun also more recently, having it to be like a little bit more of a discussion with testers, once the test gets started, of like, Hey, this is the day I’m was thinking, What day do you would like, does this good? Is this bad? And then I check in about halfway through and be like, how is everyone doing? Are we still feeling like the deadline we set for ourselves is doable, or do you need more time. And that I think also helps make it easier, because it’s also not like, it’s not becoming, you know, like, let’s turn us around. And some of that is I have the ability to do that, because I don’t work with a whole lot of brands. So because I’m not working under deadline set by someone else, I’m the one setting the deadlines, I can be a lot more accommodating of that. I do want to recognize that, like some designers, because that’s how they have to pay their bills is working with brands. They don’t necessarily always have that like ability. But I try to use the fact that I am not super big to my testers advantage, if anything to be like, hey, I can give you more time like, hey, I can try to figure this one out, we can arrange yarn support. So also, the other thing I love to do with with my test, and this was recommended to me by a friend, is I have like yarn support from like tester to tester. So right now, I am not in a position where I can like give yarn support to every single one of my testers. But I mostly try to save the yarn support for those who are low income. And those who and or those who are, are making the plus size garment making the larger size garments. And so they. So it’s people who sometimes they have a bunch of stuff in their stash. They’re like, I don’t think I ever see myself making something with it. But it’s dang good yarn. It’s still usable. I just don’t want to use it personally, and I think most crafters, they’re like, Yes, I have that in my stash. And so they will send that directly to another test, or we at least we send pictures. It’s not like, do you sign up for your own support? And it’s like, this is what you get.

Amanda

it’s alright.

Christina

It’s just terrible. It’s a terrible color that you hate. But make it work? No, it’s I have everyone take pictures. And I have I send it out in an email. Like, here’s the yarn that we have. That’s like easy to send. And then some people they’re like, I live in the in the Philippines and I need yarn support. And like, yeah, we’re not sending it to you. We will send you money. Yeah, money sounds great.

Amanda

I mean, it would go a lot further. I mean, can you imagine the shipping like, yeah, the money? No,

Christina

it’s and so then we have like a small pool of like, I put some my own money in there. Because then I have some my own money or some of my own yarn that’s like available for people to send, they’d have never wanted the one I have though, I’m like getting a little insulted. Like, you don’t want my yarn. I’m either gonna have to figure out how to use it or donate it at this point.

Amanda

I hear you on that.

Christina

I think that’s beautiful, too. I think it’s beautiful. I just don’t know if I’m ever going to use it. That’s a different, that’s a different thing. So, and like basically like a pull up money gets made from people who are like, Yeah, I can definitely give like 10 2040 bucks to this like for someone else to like, have some nice yarn to make this thing with. Like, it’s more fun. And I think they also see it as a way to get more people involved in pattern testing combined with like pattern testing, depending on how you run it is a really wonderful way to like kind of make friends within the fiber community. And I’ve seen it happen. I’ve actually like some of the friends I’ve made has literally been a result of pattern tests we were both a part of. And so you’re like, Oh, hey, you’re here too. It’s so cool. It’s literally it’s the equivalent of like, you all sign up for some kind of like event and you show up and you’re like, Oh hey, my buddies here. I didn’t know you’re gonna be here. And you see it in the chat and it’s the cutest thing, I love it. And that’s the other thing is like it is a way to build community. So that’s why, to me, it’s kind of how cost prohibitive it can be, makes it so much more of a bummer. And it’s also I think we have a responsibility to like kind of take a little bit firmer away. I think it’s 100%, like those of us who can and like those of us who are in a position of power to do so in some way, shape, or form. And I’m not pretending I’m over here, like the most powerful young person that’s ever existed. I know I’m sorry to tell you.

Amanda

We do all have power. I mean, I think that we forget, you know, like, and it can make it can make you feel so defeated. It can. But we can’t we we can do a lot more than we think we can.

Christina

Oh 100%. And so I think even just like because sometimes I’ve also like talk to other people about some of this. And I think just having some of these conversations about what it can look like. And I’m not pretending that my version of like pattern testing is like one everyone should do. Because I one, I don’t think that’s doable for everyone. That might not be something everyone’s comfortable with for like different reasons. But I think just had like just even having the discussions about like how long your deadline should be. And I’m not even claiming that I’m the first one having that conversation. I think, literally, I am parroting I want to make sure I’m giving credit where credit is due. I am parroting all of like the amazing plus sized, extended sizes, fat, whatever word you prefer. Testers and like makers who like kind of made, I’ll be honest, made me aware of it. Because they’re like, Hey, we’re making bigger size garments. We need more time. And I was like, I’m not gonna lie. That link wasn’t there before. I kind of feel like an idiot. But yeah, you’re right. That is indeed what’s happening. Yeah.

Amanda

So like, just to recap where we are, right? So. So one pattern testers, they don’t get paid right now they don’t. And they have to buy their own yarn. Most not always. Hashtag not always, but often, right? Yeah, it depends, I guess who they’re testing for? So why do people decide to do it?

Christina

That’s a really good question. I personally think it’s because it’s I think some people really like working with certain designers, which I know I do. I still do pattern testing on occasion. And it’s usually for people I really like to work with. I think some people do it for the community, because I do think the community can be really cool. I think it comes from, I think the origins of a lot of power. And testing tends to be like, Oh, hey, friend, can you look at this for me? Like, can you make this with me? I want to make sure this is making sense. And so I think it comes from a like history of that. As far as I know. I do think some people do it for for exposure as much as I hate to say it, and I don’t always think it’s the best path to go down to for exposure. I never think exposure is a good path to go down.

Amanda

It’s no, definitely not.

Christina

It’s not it’s really, really not. So I think that’s also an element to it. I mostly personally, I know, I come back to it again. And again, for community. You do sometimes get like patterns and like discount codes. For it really depends on the designer, I usually give like one two patterns. And then like a discount code to my Etsy shop, which has, like a very random assortment of things with like vintage clothes and vintage book pages and like illustrations and stuff. I’m not pretending that is good compensation. It is the compensation I can give. And that’s like the other thing I think where some of this comes from as well is because patterns themselves are kind of undervalued. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen someone say like, like, insert amount of dollars someone charging for the pattern. And I’m just like, Yeah, time is worth something. You’re only seeing the end result you don’t see the amount of hours it took just to get that. And so, Patrick, I I wish I had a better answer if I’m being honest, because it does make me a little uneasy because I I have never had any of the testers I work with say like, Hey, I feel like you’re exploiting me. That being said, I don’t think that it doesn’t happen. I do think it’s very I think Do you think the response ability is very much on the designers to make sure they are treating the people they’re working with? Well, and not exploiting them, what that looks like, I think can really vary. Because I do think the vast majority of pattern testers tend to be, are the people you? I don’t want to make I shouldn’t make that generalization. I don’t think it’s the vast majority, I do think a decent amount of the pattern testers who are doing it are people who are either in the yarn industry for some reason or another. I’ve know so many yarn pattern testers, who literally work in yarn shops.

Amanda

How interesting well, so at least they’re getting that employee discount on the yarn?

Christina

I think they’re getting employee discount, I think some of them might also be doing it to make samples for the store. So it’s like two birds, one stone kind of thing. I think some of them do tend to, people who do pattern testing tend to be wealthy. So they have those, like, those people that you see have like shelves and shelves of your own. I think it tends to be some of most people. It really, really depends on I think the person, I do think because they are not paid, there is an extra onus on the designers to make sure that they are being treated well. And it is more than just a transactional relationship that you’re having with the people you’re working with. Because they are giving you a lot of their time and typically notes. And I was even talking to a friend of mine, that’s also a pattern tester, where she came up on like the Ravelry forums, and Ravelry now has its share of issues with like, accessibility as far as like disabilities go. But it did do a great job fostering a community of people who love like knitting and crochet, and I think a few of the other fiber arts. And that’s where pattern testing came from. And it went from like, I think, like a picture, and just a few notes as you’re making it to, from what she said, I wish I remember the exact conversation. But she said, now it’s like you need 10 pictures need all this other stuff. And I think I was noticing that for myself where I was like, This feels like a lot to ask of people. So I have what I asked up. So I personally like to ask for proof of life photo, just so I know you made it. But like, taking time to go do like a photo shoot, that’s a lot of time and it’s reliant on all the like all this other stuff. So like, if you even then I’m also I have come like, in my time, like designing and hosting pattern tests. I’ve also stopped like chasing people down for for, like information. Because I like not everyone has that I think mental capacity when they’re going through some busy terrible times to be like, Ah, yes, let me go talk to that woman I met on Instagram about this crochet project. Right. But I agreed to I don’t think that’s fair to them. And I like I think so that I had to learn the hard way. And I really regret some of like, how I learned that because I think there’s also this mentality that some designers have have, clearly these people are signing up for pattern test to get a free pattern because you usually get the the pattern you worked on for free at the end of it. And I’m just like, and somebody pointed out, and I was like, Yeah, that’s a really great point where the right who puts in that amount of time for something you can buy? For right? Less than $20.

Amanda

Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I did. That’s like insulting.

Christina

So like, that’s, that’s the other thing it comes down to is like, I don’t think anyone’s if there’s, if there’s anyone in power in this relationship. It it is me so I have to recognize that as best as I can. And make sure I’m not holding it over people’s heads in a way. Yeah, and instead of trying to make it more equal terian where it’s not just like, like, where it’s not me kind of lording over the people I’m working with and I I even tried to like change how I phrase it with where I try to say like these are the like pattern testers I’m working with versus like, my pattern testers like they’re not people

Amanda

I mean, I’m sure like, like there there are good and bad people in everything you can think of right? Like Oh, definitely every time I post about like, you know why we should shop small It’s like, every single time someone comments. Yeah, well, I know some small businesses who are run by terrible people. And I’m like, yeah, that doesn’t surprise me. They’re terrible people everywhere. They’re everywhere. Not all people in all things, right, like that kind of thing. And so I’m sure that there are some situations in which pattern testers do feel exploited or disappointed or unappreciated. Even which feeling unappreciated is a pretty bad feeling in itself, you know, terrible. It’s terrible. Yeah. How many testers Do you usually use?

Christina

So I personally like a big honkin test, I like it to be like, it depends because I typically my size chart is has 10 sizes and it runs from, oh, I need to look at it, I can’t remember off the top my head, I do my best to get people of all sizes. Usually it’s the two extreme so my, like, teeny tiny size ones. And then usually it ends up being so funny, it tends to be people who are like, they have their kid test like, their, their kid has their model, it’s so funny. So it’s a chest size, it’s typically chest size, 28 inches, to chest size, 66 inches, which I think corresponds to like, the size of, I think it’s like a 5x. So if your six XL, Yeah, cuz a five XL is typically 60 inches. So it’s the six XL, if you were to look at, so I like a minimum, a minimum of like two testers per psi, so automatically puts me at like 20. And then typically, if I can get a little more, especially on sizes, like six through 10. I take it because I recognize that, that like those notes are a little more felt like valuable to me personally, because I am someone who is like straight sized. So I need to know if I’m doing something terribly wrong in the math of grading. And the only people who can tend to really tell me that are people who are like a size nine or size 10. So like that very like important to me, that’s a lot harder to get, like more than one size 10 I’m usually very happy if I get one size 10 I also like to have a big honking test, as I like to call it. Because it allows me to have a lot more leniency. So if I have like five testers be like, I just can’t do it for any reason that they give. I don’t mean to test that it’s not fair to them. It it for any of those reasons, I I still know I’m gonna get notes no matter what verses and typically notes even still on that size that they can’t do any more. Versus if I only had one test or per pattern, or a per size, I’d like oh no, there goes my size seven. And it’s just like a lot more stressful. So I think it also allows the testers to breathe more easily knowing that, like, if something goes wrong, they don’t feel responsible for getting me notes on this because I’ve also had testers be like, I’m so sorry. I’ve never dropped out of a test before. I really am sorry. I’m like your it’s your person.

Amanda

Yeah, right.

Christina

I, I had to delay one of like my releases because of like mental health issues I was going through I’m not I’m not gonna like be like, How dare you like, it’s again, I want to make sure I’m getting leniency to people in the same way that I also want leniency myself. And I also think because of having like, just the more testers in general, I make sure I just throw a few I have people I like to work with again and again, again, for my for they keep coming back. So I’m not gonna say no go away. But also, they bring a lot of good energy to the test. And I’ll notice that they’re very willing to help other people in the test and it can become a lot become a lot more like what would be called like a crochet along so any kind of craft along where it’s a bunch of people hanging out making the vibe is more like a bunch of people are hanging out making the same thing together versus a bunch of people making something that they have to be responsible for. And so I think it count can help get that vibe a lot more. That’s the other reason I really like to have a whole bunch of testers is they can help each other a little more when I am not always available. I work three ish jobs. So that’s like, besides all of the stuff, so I don’t always I can’t always be there. By the way I want to be so it helps give me breathing room as well. As much as I’m loathe to say it. So it’s it’s just helpful. All around, I firstly find I also think they’re more fun if there’s a bunch of them.

Amanda

Yeah, I could see that. I think that sounds really more people at the party. So people will be like, you know, you send them the pattern and they’re working on it. They when they’re finished, do they just sort of like send you notes like, here’s what worked, or here, here is what didn’t work.

Christina

So I personally like to run my tests. So that’s one way to do pattern testing what you just described, I personally like to do my tests on a Discord server, and I make a bunch, I make a category and a bunch of channels just for that pattern test. And so there’s a there’s literally a channel called notes or questions. And it’s them asking, like, Hey, I looked at this math, and I don’t know how you count. And I’m like, You’re right. That’s a great point. I also don’t know how I count. And so I’m able to like, go into like, thanks. And I use a Google Doc. So they’re also seeing edits in real time. So I can just do a bunch of edits, and be like, everything’s fixed until the next problem. And they come back through and they’re like, thanks. And then usually there is another problem because I am a person I’m a human being. And they help we all can, like work through it together, typically. So that’s how I like to do it. That’s also why when I’m saying like, they can help each other. Sometimes they have a question about something technical. And I’ll be one of my jobs. The access to Discord is terrible. Unfortunately, that was news. I started the job in January, so I did not anticipate that. And so I’ll get home I’m like, Oh, no. And then I’m like, Oh, God, there’s so many messages and I see it someone be like, Yeah, this is the video that really helped me. I hope it helps you. And I’m like, okay, it’s fine. Everything’s fine. I can breathe. So that’s what it is. I like to also do at the end, I do a Google form. That’s just like, hey, what were your measurements? How much yarn did you use? Did you like to fit? Any notes that you feel like were not addressed? Here’s like, Can I have your email to send the final pattern to what is your like? Instagram handle, I need to add Tik Tok. Now, because I have learned that apparently the youth are not on Instagram. They’re only on Tik Tok. So I’ve begun to get comments going. I don’t have an Instagram. I’m like, Okay, thank you for making me feel old. So it’s usually when everyone’s done. Or at least most of them are done because some people will like message me separately and be like, I don’t think I’m gonna finish. I’ve had I’ve also had pattern testers literally message me like, I tried it on where I was, and I hate it. And I’m like, Wow, that really sucks. But yeah, go go about your life.

Like, I can finish it for you. Like, no, no, I’m not gonna make you it was like you clearly already want to Frog this. I’m not going to make you do the frog. It was fine. I am not insulted. Sometimes that happens. God knows I’ve like gone about a patent on me. Like, I can’t wait. And then I put it on my body like this is a no.

Amanda

When do you know you’re ready to release it into the world?

Christina

So it’s typically when most people are done. It’s also when I’m noticing, there’s not really comments anymore. There’s usually a due date for the end of the pattern test. So it’s a few days, two weeks after that. I try to keep it a few days because people get excited. All the testers get excited because they have a huge hand in making that like pattern come to be. And I don’t want to undermine that. So they like it’s usually a few days or like week or two. After that. It’s when I do like my final edits. And then I I personally send it back to my tech editor and see like, like, okay, Did I spell any words correctly? On top of there, they will be like, Hey, um, I don’t know what you did, but you deleted this entire section like, oh, wow, okay, I don’t know, because there’ll be something when I’m editing kind of thing. Or things to keep with what’s called my style guide, which is like how everything’s Yeah, I guess. I guess that’s not really a weird word because there’s like MLA and APA style guides. Like how I like to format everything where there they will be like, This is not in the correct format and like I’m sorry. And so that’s and then usually that is finally when I like release it to the world and sell it for money after usually months of work because you have to figure it’s on top of I’m slow at designing to start with so it’s, I do the designing. I send it to a tech editor. I have it in pattern testing for usually at minimum a month, usually closer to two to three. So that happens then the final edits. It’s being edited while while it’s in pattern testing, but sometimes there’s like final little itty bitty edits. And then that it’s fine on that sell date so it usually takes God I think my process is six months. Oh, that’s horrifying. Wow.

Amanda

How much do you usually charge?

Christina

heavy sigh I so I think my lowest cost pattern right now is like $4. And it’s because it’s something that’s pretty, like it’s a pumpkin, I give the profits to a, like a local mutual aid group. But so that’s, I think, currently my lowest cost. But other than that it’s at minimum $5. And I have, unfortunately, the gun to have to think about No, my lowest is $3. Sorry, I’m like fact checking myself in real time. My lowest is about $3. And it’s one of the first things I ever design, which is like a beanie. You’ll see most designers start with beanies, because they’re very like safe. And like, their turnaround times are much quicker. So you have like $3, which is a bit low, if I’m being honest. And then my highest costing pattern is I think, 950. I’ve begun to think about raising the prices due to Etsy. Etsy has raised its transaction. So either did they raise some kind of fee that they didn’t need to? And they even said, like, it’s to bring you classes and like I didn’t ask for those.

Amanda

Really, that’s what they that makes me so

Christina

they’re like, it’s for you. I’m like, No, this is for you. This is for you

Amanda

totally for that.

Christina

And I do have because honestly, even if I were to raise prices, even without raising prices, I think for some people, not even 50 is a little bit more money for them. And I completely recognize that so there’s always going to be like more financially accessible pricing on my pay hip and it’s just, you use a variety of coupon codes to like, get it closer to the price that you feel comfortable paying I don’t think I have a whole lot of people who take advantage of that. If they do that makes them the asshole, not me. Because I can tell you right now that I like, I mean, it sucks if someone’s using those kinds of codes on my pay hit to like, get a, like 50% off pattern. And they don’t actually need to exam, you know, just like looking for a good deal.

Amanda

I mean, that’s like a total behavior, right? I mean, so many people do that off site. I mean, I see like makers on Instagram being harassed over this kind of stuff. And then you click on the person who’s doing the harassing his profile, and like, they’re tagging, like free people and all their outfits, and you’re like, Hmm, seems like you’ve got money to spam.

Christina

I didn’t know that. But like I because I also don’t fact check some of this stuff. Because I’ve also only seen their pay pal come through, and I just go, oh, I guess someone bought a pattern. I hope I get to see them make it. And I’ve also had people who’ve, like, DM to me who were like, thank you so much for having like price like that financial accessibility. I’m broke. Fairy. Sounds good. Very fair. So I know, some people might take advantage of it. And I know I’ve I’ve literally had designers tell me like, I would never have that. For all these reasons. It’s one of those things. It’s like, whatever your comfort level is. Because this is not currently my main job. It has definitely helped me pay rent in the past. I do want to be clear, like I do need some profit from it. Because it has helped me pay rent. But it I guess I’m in a better position to let that possibility come true of people being like, I just like a good deal. Versus Yeah, and I 50s a lot of money for me, kind of thing. But yeah, so patterns. Even still, though, I think Chris most crochet patterns more specifically, I have found be priced, I would say on average lower than like some knitting patterns, but they definitely don’t cost as much as sewing patterns. And it’s an entire thing. It’s very weird. I think a lot of people don’t really want to pay for patterns, which is really strange, because I while I’ve never gotten comments, or harassed about like the pricing of my patterns, I’ve seen people who pay who price lower than me be harassed. And I’m just like, they’re pricing too low. I’m pricing too low. We’re all pricing.

Amanda

I love that. I hate that. And it’s like, I mean, hopefully anybody who’s listening to this conversation will be like, Wow, I literally had no idea that so much time and work and thought and people people hours went into creating a pattern. I mean, I think the average person just thinks that like, they matter. someone’s like, I was messing around, I crocheted this thing. Here’s how I did the end, which even still, even if that’s all it was, would still have value. But it’s so much it’s so much more than that. You know, I mean, don’t even get me started on sewing patterns. Like, yeah.

Christina

I know, I know how to write a crochet pattern. But I as someone who’s like, also like a very beginner sewist I look at sewing patterns. And I’m like, I don’t know how you did this. Thank you. But I don’t know how you did this.

Amanda

I think we have this weird mindset that it’s totally is it’s totally based in consumerism, right? Where, like, we have no problem paying money for a thing, like an actual object. But something that is like an idea, or information we don’t want to pay for because it’s not a thing. And they think that patterns are in the same boat. I wouldn’t wear anyway. Yeah. Right. It’s like the it’s an important ingredient to the whole thing. And yeah, definitely people will complain about buying yarn, because let’s look yeah, yarn is. Every time I’m like, I’m going to knit this thing. And then I go and I spend $60 in the garden, like how did that happen?

Christina

because you’re like, Oh, I only need five skeins

Amanda

only and you’re like at $130. And so like we already we expect that yarn is going to be expensive, I think and we know it but at least we walk out with this bag of something. But the pattern is an important element of that. And it shouldn’t be free. But I feel like the same way. Like sometimes I’ll share like a news article on Instagram or something and someone will be like, Oh, it’s got like, you have to pay pay to see it. And I’ll say like, yeah, that’s how journalists make a living. And it’s like, Do you have any ways to get around it? And I’m like, You know what, listen, I used to be the same where I was like, I am not paying for any news if I don’t I’ll get it for free, I don’t want it. And then one day, I was like, Wait, like people work really hard on this. And so I do like I have a subscription to The New York Times I have a subscription to The Washington Post, I have a few other subscriptions, Business Insider, all these other ones. If you’re a university

Christina

student right now, a lot of universities give you access to subscriptions for free. So if you’re a broke college student, there’s your hack right there. See if your university has a subscription, use it.

Amanda

Very smart, very smart. And for the rest of you pay for because you know what, that’s how people have jobs.

Christina

And we need journalistic integrity. And, and it

Amanda

has value, right. And like, I think that that’s another thing, we’re totally going off in a tangent, but like, I think that’s another thing. People don’t don’t see that. As the as, like, humans in general stopped paying for subscriptions to actual physical newspapers. Like when I was growing up, we always got the newspaper came every day, and it costs money. And I even had a paper route in junior high school, and I’d go collect my $4 A week from people, you know, back then newspapers actually made money off of selling their work, right. But now, no one wants to pay for anything, and certainly no one. No will not no one but many people do not get a subscription to an actual physical newspaper, myself included, because it seems like such a burden for recycling and everything. So now it’s on the internet. And people are like, Well, why isn’t it free? And and then you’re like, why am I getting all these ads? It makes me so mad. And it’s like, listen, dude, you can have it, you can have it both ways. If it’s going to be free to you, it’s going to be filled with ads. And you know what that is going to have an influence on the reporting, period. Because if you want good journalism, then you need to pay for it. Because it’s like, it’s it’s work good. You know? And it really is, right? It’s the same thing with patterns. Like, I’m sure you can get a free pattern from like one of the brands that have yarn, you can buy it Joanne but like, how great is it?

Christina

Yeah, that really depends. Because you have I’ve seen like some really good fit like, regardless. That’s also when people are like, Why do these patterns cost so much like, well, because I am, I am a lot more independent, I don’t work with brands. So that means I I’m not getting paid by those same brands, or I’m rarely getting paid by those same brands. Because I’m a much smaller time designer overall. But I also think it’s come from some of that idea of like, if I’m making myself it should be cheaper. And that’s why I like it. It kind of is one of those things that has begun to grind my gears, because I feel like it’s because you’re saying they’d rather buy a thing. And I was like, Yes. And I part of my brain is like, yeah, that’s because they don’t, they also don’t understand how much that thing should really cost either.

Amanda

Exactly, exactly. You know, like, like, Okay, you go buy some nice yard and you like it’s five skeins, and you’re like, $100 And you’re like, $100 to make a sweater like I could go buy for sweaters for that. And yeah,

Christina

those sweaters are cheap. They’re not as well made because those people are under horrendous conditions.

Amanda

Yeah, and they’re shitty yarns. Yeah, you know, like they’re not going to be customed to know the people who pay like I mean, don’t even get me started on crochet like that’s been going around all the target crochet everybody. That great call it again that like there is not a machine that can crochet. Sometimes a knitting machine can be like rejiggered to make fake crochet, but they can’t for granny squares. Yeah, and that’s not the stuff is granny squares. Yeah,

Christina

yeah. It’s great. It’s great. And there’s like, I think I found it somewhere. I don’t remember the exact place. I think it was like craft snark on Reddit. But they’re like someone had access to a picture of they’re trying to figure out a way to make knitting machines make granny squares because I think it’s just cheaper. And that thing, pardon my language was one of the funniest things I’ve ever seen in my life.

Amanda

Seen this same photo, and I was like, this is like, not acceptable. Like, people pennies to crochet all day is either but like, it was just like, anyone who likes crochet and the aesthetic of it does not want that. So

Christina

it got but it’s also it’s things like I one of my jobs currently is substitute teaching. super glamorous, I know. And you’ll see me crocheting because I am the sub that’s crocheting. One of many I know. And the kids will ask me, they’re like, can you make me a sweater and I go, you can’t afford it. Because I’m honest with them. And they don’t always love that. But I’m like you can afford and it goes like, I have a job like okay, it was how much would it cost? I’m like, like $500 like first sweater like yes, because you can’t reproduce crochet. I was telling the same story at one of my other jobs. Um, and one of the older women, she’s retired, she does the like environmental education for the parks. In her like as like a fun retirement job, which happy for her. And she was you’re being sarcastic. Great. They said, No, that’s how much it would cost. And one of my co workers actually who I think is also a maker, she was like, yeah, just the yarn alone. She was like, that’s not even counting the time. And I mentioned I was like, Yeah, and I pay myself pretty well, if I’m being paid to do write a commission. I also don’t take commissions to be clear to anyone out there who’s listening to like, she can crochet me something. No, she will not. I can point you in the direction of people who will, but I will not. Because it is expensive. It’s time consuming. And I’m also someone who has very bad tendinitis. So I should not be doing Commission’s I’m only going to be making things for things that I enjoy. I design because it’s something I enjoy. I also appreciate when it helps pay the rent. I really love that helps me not do as many jobs. But otherwise, it is because I enjoy it. And I think that’s also what makes me so incredibly sad about any of like the target crochet, anytime I’m seeing in like Urban Outfitters, like crochet items, especially because Urban Outfitters does not target same as target. They are not paying their garment workers well. And I know they’re not paying their like workers in the States. Well, either.

Amanda

100% I mean, interestingly enough, like, you know, I want to say a lot of those sweaters that are at Target are about $30. I was about a week before that video came out, and everybody was sending it to me, there’s like a tech talk about it. I was at Target with Dustin. We walked by and I was like, whoa, whoa, and like, backed up. And I was like, What the fuck? And Dustin was like, what? Oh, yeah, that’s what is really cute. I’m like, No, it’s not. No, it’s not. And I was like, here’s the problem. And I want to say it was 2999. Yeah. And I was explaining it to him. And the thing is, like that same sweater, or something, a version of it would probably sell at Urban Outfitters for like, 58 or 68, probably the same factory. It’s totally the same factory. It’s like, you know, like one of those things that you’ve learned as you’re in the industry, is that for certain specialized things, whether that’s denim, or, you know, like, even just t shirts, and crochet, there aren’t that many factories that actually do it, right. There’s like, there are plenty of factories out there that are just like making clothes, right, like generic cotton so close. But for specialized, like embellishment, or technique, crochet being one of them. There’s not that many. And so ultimately, target and Urban Outfitters are both paying shit wages to the garment workers like pennies, right? Urban Outfitters just making more profit off of it. So you almost not that I’m defending target. You gotta be like, well, at least targets keeping it real. I don’t know.

Christina

Like, yeah, it’s, I just I hate it so much. And like, I know I’ve definitely like have have had my fair share of commentary but I think what’s I think what Saturday me at least who’s because I remember when target over the summer, they had a bikini that was crocheted. And I like definitely, like, made my fair share commentary around it. And then they have the shirt and I had like a poor people around me who was who are also common to common tating on it. And there’s a part of my brain that just went, like, I’m so tired, because I’m already tired. I’m so tired. And I’m really glad other people are, like commenting on it because like, I don’t have the energy to keep up with this. And I kind of like I took solace in the fact that sometimes just it’s a relay race someone else has someone else has energy for the stretch, or might have energy again for the next stretch because it’s just going to keep popping up. And it’s important just to like remind people even like if you’re someone who’s listening, like and you’re like, Oh, I didn’t know it couldn’t be machine made when you’re at target with your friends. And you’re like goofing around, being like Yeah, it’s really messed up but it’s here and just like vocally say that to your friends so that they even though they might have had like, Oh, cute reaction for a moment. They all go, oh, and then maybe you want it less. You can definitely buy some crochet stuff on like Etsy. I fully think there’s so many people who’ve learned crochet literally to sell it right now. And they are not paying themselves well. But I also think there is a big difference between someone not paying themselves as a hobby and exploiting themselves versus target exploiting God knows how many people in order to win Make an exorbitant profit off them because they are not there they exploiting those garment workers and they’re exploiting the workers help put those garments on the floor.

Amanda

Oh, yeah, totally the people who work in the stores are not doing any are much better, you know, they’ll be slightly better because they were more labor laws here but yeah, I think your targets one of those companies it’s really hard for me because in some ways they really know the buttons to push that, like, appeal to me. Like they have a lot of zero waste products. You know, their advertising is always very diverse. And, you know, like, hashtag the future liberals want that kind of thing. But, but then I like get into my head and I’m like, No, it’s like still like a shitty retailer that doesn’t give most of its workers full time. So that doesn’t have to give them benefits. It underpays people. It keeps people in poverty. It’s not that much different than Walmart, yet we give it so much more credibility. And the fact that those I just Googled while we were talking, those crocheted items are still on the target website. Yep, they are just like, whatever.

Christina

I think there is even like someone had even questioned like Qantas only be done by hand. And like a target employer. I replied, honestly, like, Yep, it can only be done by hand. And it’s so weird, because I feel like there are some people who are like, Oh, cool. And there’s gonna be people like you and me and plenty of other people who are learning as a result of like, the people doing the hard work on tick tock. Yeah,

Amanda

it is. Yeah, you know, we just need to keep like, I was looking at the reviews on, you know, there were plenty people who jumped in and said, Hey, this is really messed up, like, do this by hand or paid pennies. But for every review like that, there were two that were like, This is so cute. I wear it with jeans, you know? And you’re like, oh, like how many of us? I mean, I’ve definitely like as like the past week, I’ve been having this like, emotional meltdown, where I’m like, I just don’t know how much more I can do this, because it’s so hard. You know, but then I see stuff like that. And I’m like, No, I need to keep like pushing forward. And all of us do, because we think everybody knows these things. Because we’re all talking about them with each other, but most people don’t. Exactly, exactly. And so, like, we need to influence in our sphere of influence as much as we can.

Christina

Yes. And I think because I’m taking a communications class right now, it’s environmental science communications. And actually, that’s something we talked about is not always is it like one person you’re getting your communication from your source of influence from it’s like, we’re all getting it from each other. So I think because you’ve definitely said it your fair share, and I’ve appreciated that where it’s like we are all influencers, influencers in our own right. In our in our own way in our own communities, our own like friends and family. And I think that sometimes what’s like worth remembering is sometimes it’s just like pushing, you know, your mom to stop buying at fancy fast fashion. Yeah, yeah. And to consider like the material she’s buying, if that’s something I’ve definitely had conversations with my own mom about it, she has been pretty receptive. And it’s, she’s so funny. She always goes You remind me of your grandmother because my abuela used to like she was a seamstress so when she would go into stores she’d like this is made like trash.

Amanda

I love that.

Christina

I love it, too. I love that energy so much. I love that you heat the energy as I like to like think of it. But I’m not. I know I’m not alone of thinking of it like that. But

Christina

it’s things like that of just like pushing your friends and family. I mean, even if it’s like if you are like a fiber artist pushing the people around you to not pirate patterns, please. I think even this call is like, Oh yeah, it takes me six months. Which was horrifying to me. And I know But to be frank I’m also doing this part time and I know I definitely know like some designers were I think from start to finish it’s a lot quicker but even then I think it’s still like three months for them. I don’t think it’s like this super quick turnaround time for any of us because no matter what someone has to make the garment and crochet can be incredibly intensive on your limbs. No joy,

Amanda

all of the fiber arts already take that for granted too. Oh, yeah, it’s another thing to think like what if you spent all day crocheting granny squares for targets

Christina

I worry about the health of their best honestly, like very sincere like this isn’t me being like I will no i Since I very very, very very sincerely worried about the health of their wrists. Because I think of how my wrist feels. After like, when I’m like cranking out something and like again, I’m I am consenting to being a physician. They are not consent. anything to be in that position or there’s very little consent involved because it’s kind of a false choice for them for the for these workers. And it just bums me out, to say the least it’s something that makes me sick, honestly. Because I don’t think anyone should be in that position. And I really wish I’d sometimes see and I do think we’re seeing I do want to give that credit. But more solidarity between crafters, like these are crafters, just like we are. And I think sometimes, we almost can kind of divorce ourselves from it. Because at least in this country, we can kind of you know, plants over wash over it. But they’re still crafters, too, if you’re any if you’re working in any kind of international space, which if you’re doing any of your crafting on social media, you’re in an international space at that point. Fun fact, crafters aren’t just like, they don’t just look if assuming you are like a white lady. They don’t just look like you. They come in a lot of other like, they come from a lot of other places, and they come in a lot of other skin tones. So making it so you only seem to think that it’s like craftsmanship. If you’re it’s a white lady doing that that is immediately that’s a red flag. Do you need to be considering these other people who are more likely Brown? And more likely living in? Oh, absolutely.

Amanda

I mean, we we recorded an episode recently where we dissected that marathons video about like, quote, closed Miss die. And in her video, she was basically like, Listen, this is like, a really quick and dirty summary of it. But like, we should be protecting quilts which unfortunately, you know, her audience and and herself Are these like privileged white women, we should be protecting quilts. And instead, if you want to buy quilt, quilt inspired clothing, go buy stuff from Target or other fast fashion. No, I know. And I was like, wow,

Christina

they’re not. They’re not under any circumstance.

Amanda

I know. I know. I was like this. I said this multiple times when we were recording, but I was like, Did Mary fond share this video with a couple people? Perhaps? Do the pattern testing version of video testing was like, hey, is there anything in here that like catches your eye? Maybe makes you think I should like revisit? Because I I would hope that at least one person would have said hey, I think you like maybe, you know, biting off more than you could chew they’re going going the wrong direction. Because that is just like, so absurd to me. But I mean, you know, it is a fact that often people whether they realize it or not are valuing stuff that their peers make over worker of color overseas. And I, every time I talked about that on Instagram, someone messaged me and like, why don’t you ever talk about white people? And I’m like, oh, okay, you’re blocked next.

Christina

Yeah, cuz I mean, there’s even and I love to see it because I think her handle is Gigi made it on Instagram. I wish I could remember her name. I’m just gonna look it up right now before I make a jerk up myself. Gig giggle SP is her name. That’s what’s kept giggle SP because gay Gillespie has like these great shirts, they like I knit too. And it’s literally because so many like people like when like black and it’ll show up to. To like yarn stores have been like, I’m sorry. What are you doing here? Like I also, I also use yarn. A lot.

Amanda

Thanks. Yeah, yeah,

Christina

I don’t think she has them any more. But I’m not sure why you should also be making sure you’re like welcoming rappers of color into your space. And that still goes through valuing, like with that, you will also need to value like crafters of color. In other places that are being exploited, you need to still have solidarity within the same as you have solidarity with crafters here, where you are you should always be building connections. And making sure you’re making something more equitable in some way, shape or form. So maybe it’s making sure you’re not being an asshole to the black woman in your yarn shop. Maybe it’s making sure your like, your white lady friend knows like, No, you should not buy that from Target.

Amanda

Yeah, and like the here’s the thing. I think that what people get confused about right is like we do know that a lot of fast fashion is lower quality, right? That’s the nature of the model. But we somehow get it all tangled up in our brains. Were there for the work that the people did to make it as less valuable and it’s like no, no, their work is just as valuable them sewing a dress is just as valuable as you sewing a dress. So yeah, the difference is that they were given shitty materials to work with in the third place, right there and

Christina

shitting materials they’re giving. They’re given very shitty timelines. They’re given shitty working conditions. And like, it’s also do you think it’s their decision to I keep thinking about like costumes because I listened to your episode about like Halloween. And then I went to like a costume party with literally just my family. And so like, we all looked at our costumes. And I remember staring at their costumes going, Oh, wow, they really just, wow, there’s just surge. raw edges. Oh, oh, it’s not like

Amanda

No, listen, we’ve all had jobs socked where we like, leave at the end of the day and be like, Wow, I feel like, you know, so little pride in what I did today. Right? Like, it’s not like the people who made those are like, wow, I really love how I make shitty Halloween costumes all day. But there’s still skill in it. Right? And just like looking at the crocheted cardigans at Target. I mean, hey, they look great. They’re consistent. Yeah, right, which he has heard, right? It’s really, really hard. What maybe what is probably lacking in those cardigans is they’re maybe not using the best yarns, according to some of the reviews, they shrink if you watched them. But like that labor of crocheting those is no less valuable or worthy than the labor you might put into making a sweater for yourself. And that’s, that’s the thing that we have to get over. And so like saying, like Mary Fonz was like, It’s better to buy quilt clothes made by exploited people that are probably low quality and not going to last versus taking a quilt that no one wants and turning it into clothes like that is just honestly the best thing you can do if you go buy that $30 Sweater at Target is please take care of it and wear it for a really long time. Because someone literally crocheted that and their wrists hurt the whole time and they probably didn’t have like a little office medicine cabinet where they can all take ibuprofen all day, you know?

Amanda

One thing you taught and I talked about when we were preparing for this episode was the classist undertone in the way the crafting community views crochet. And I’ve been thinking about it nonstop since then. Because like, I also would see people in these conversations about these target sweaters being like, well, whatever, you can crochet something really fast. It’s like no big deal or like, like, I asked someone, you know, we were talking about marathons and the quilt clothes thing. And I was like, you know, what’s interesting to me as like, I also know, that UPS cyclers use, you know, like crocheted blankets, and turn those into clothing, which I always think look really cool. And they’re so cool. They’re so cool. And I see so many of those blankets at the thrift store all the time. Like I have reached critical mass in my house of how many I can buy, and they’re all like, so unique and beautiful. And I think about someone working really hard on it. And I never I’ve seen people gripe about quilts for quite a while actually, but I’ve never heard one person say, and then people are turning crocheted blankets into vests and pillows, like no one says that hope

Christina

no one says that I will personally come and have a very strong word.

Amanda

Many of them like Please, guys, please, you’re sad. And they’re cool. I love like somewhere that people chose.

Christina

Someone put a lot of like care into it. Or they were really stressed. Like anytime I make a blanket literally anytime I make a blanket I’m stressed. Usually nine times out of 10 it’s stress. But like, I think I think there’s something to be said about sometimes loving the things you have. isn’t keeping them the way they are. It’s figuring out how to make them into something you’ll love again. Yeah, yeah. And I think that’s sometimes a little lost to some people. I think. Which sucks. But yeah. Also know anyone who wants to like make any like in case you needed someone who crochets blessing. This is it. Make it I do not care. Show me pictures. If anything. I want to see what you make. I love seeing people stuff. It’s why I’m on Instagram.

Amanda

i Yes, usually I want someone to do some like tutorials on upcycling Afghans into clothing because I like for example, last week, we were in Las Vegas and the Grand Canyon and we were like we’re gonna go thrifting because the thrifting in Austin is terrible. And we miss it. It’s like our hobby. And we went to so many thrift stores were like they were some of the best crocheted blankets I’ve ever seen. Of course, I think that every time I see them, but like I was like, Whoa, these are like the best ones. Yeah. And I was like, Oh, I can’t buy these, like, I don’t have space for them my suitcase and it was so sad to leave them behind. And I was like, you know, on top of that manda like you already have so many crocheted blankets in your house right now like that can’t you don’t even live in a cold place anymore? You know, so I had to leave them behind. But there was one that was like roses. And I was like, man, that’d be so cool to turn into like a tank top. But like I don’t even know where to begin. Anyway, let’s talk about the classist undertone and the way people view crochet because I think that’s really fascinating. Like, first off, why do you think that is?

Christina

So based off some of like the research I’ve done. And it comes from like different sources depending on like, who, who you talk to basically or like what you’re reading. There is supposedly a link to like crocheted lace, from Ireland being how a lot of poor women made money for their families during the potato famine, which is like super intense and kind of metal. Imagine being in a famine and being like, I’m going to feed my family with this very niche item. It’s super awesome. I personally think it’s great. It’s supposedly comes from a little bit of that. A lot of times it can also be coded for like low income and or people of color absent. I think some of the coding from low income does come from some of those sources. It also depends on the country you’re in as well. So in the United States and I think UK there is that like class undertone, I cannot speak to other places that are have not had that influence before. So I’ve seen where like it gets discussed in some from Argentina. was like, wait, wait. I’m like, I’m sorry, I don’t know what to tell you. I’m like, this is just something weird that happens here. And I do think a lot of it just is some of that coding. I, I wish I had better answers in some of those ways. But a lot of it just is linked to, as far as I know, is linked to like the fact that it was coded as something low income women did in order to make money for their families, which also kind of sucks because I have a feeling they were not paid fairly based on the hours they were putting in. I think there just always going to be in the history of the craft at this point baked in. And it also has, like, there’s also weird undertone sometimes and I’ve even had it myself where like, I go to yarn store, I’m like, I’m here to buy some yarn. And they’re like, Oh, what are you knitting? I’m like, Well, I don’t knit I crochet. And they’re like, oh, and I’m like, what, what did I say? Cuz I just thought it was here for a good time. Which is also weird, because supposedly, crochet takes more yarn than knitting does. So if anything, I had been in the prime business for them. If I like saved up my money to like, go to a fancy place to buy yarn. Don’t you want me buying more of your yarn? And I’ve also like, because I’ve literally talked to other people about it, where it’s like, yeah, I don’t where they’re like, I don’t always like to go into the yarn stores. Because I’ve definitely got like dirty looks before when I say a crochet stuff. And what experience really got me was when I went to a very fancy yarn store near me, local to my area. And I literally had one of the people tell me to my face, one of the like, yarn store workers, one of the like, staff for that store, say, like, I’m just not really into crochet, because I just don’t feel like anyone’s doing anything innovative.

Amanda

Wow, what is compared to passwords with knitting, like how much innovation is there comparatively, you know, like that. That is such a gross statement, I will say, I’ve been knitting my whole adult life I taught myself. I have never felt comfortable in any yarn store, period.

Christina

Which sucks, because like, I also think like yarn stores can be a place to help host community. And that’s also why I think when you are in online spaces, you have an extra responsibility to make sure they’re equitable, because you can get people from like all walks of life. But what really gets me about like, this yarn store is literally, I remember that happened. And I was like, oh, and I was pretty new to the craft. So I was like, I don’t know, he works in a garden store. He must be right. And I started to get like, into it more. And the more I got into it, the more I was like, fuck that guy. Because I was like, what? Like, what is he talking about? It’s like, no one’s doing anything innovative in it.

Amanda

That’s just I’m sorry, but that is the douchiest thing I’ve ever heard someone say, and I’ve heard a lot of douchey things.

Christina

And like it still so weird to me, because I remember seeing a few years later, they had someone have significant note, come to their store. And they made a big hoopla about it. Does this woman knit? No, she crochets? Did they make an enamel pins signifying her her visit? Oh, yes, they did. They literally made enamel pins about it. The money did go the money from selling enamel pins did go to a local charity, I will give them that. However, in the attention economy that we are currently living in, that is pretty that’s pretty darn significant to like still, like that’s a way of profiting still is to like, be like Oh, and see we made these pins. But like don’t worry, it’s going to charity. And still making sure people kind of knew she was there in some way. I think I was almost angry because I was like you is as far as I know, you still have that staff who said those like really weird things to me, and made my experience at your store kind of bad on staff. And so you’re potentially getting a bunch of people who liked that craft into your store to have these crappy experiences. Because for what for like, I don’t know, if you ever really talk to your staff about that about their behaviors. And granted, maybe I should have said something. I’m sorry, at the age of like 22 I didn’t notice to be like can I speak to your manager because that’s not my go to reaction to things. I think it makes me a better person, but maybe that’s just me. Um, like, you need to be like, This is what I kept saying, like, you need to make sure you’re having like equity inclusion in your spaces. But you also need to look like make sure you’re examining what that looks like, in some way. So if you know something is typically coded as low income or and or like something, mostly people of color do, are you actually making sure that that space is welcoming to people of color? Or are you luring them in using this other woman’s likeness? In order for them to have a bad experience? Because that’s not equitable. And that is not inclusive? Oh, no. And like, I’m saying this as someone who comes across as a white lady, and I’m saying you’re not being like, come on. I know if I’m saying that, I definitely know you’re probably not being good to like other people, people without some of my experiences as well, some of my privileges. Right, right. So I think like that definitely is, it’s just a very weird thing in the yarn crafts, that I have noticed, I have experienced. And I know that other people have experienced to the point where I think one of like the big fiber festivals was going on. And I was talking about it with people. Because I think I even said, I’m nervous to go because I don’t want to be looked down on because I crochet, like, I don’t think I’d ever go. And I literally had other friends be like, Yeah, I’ve had like weird enough experiences, I don’t really want to go to a giant, I don’t want to pay a bunch of money to be at a place for that to happen to me. Which again, it really sucks because especially at the current at some of those fiber festivals are like, do you want to spend your money? How much money do you want to spend? Which I’m not even gonna like touch that. We don’t have time to unpack that. But it’s things like that, where it’s like making sure you also value other members of your community because I would like while I definitely make sure I’d say like, I’m a crochet designer that’s in part so people don’t show up to my chops, like any of my shop friends and go, Wait a minute, there’s no knitting patterns here. No, I don’t think there ever will be I’m not good at knitting. But I definitely know I’m still part of a larger fiber community that includes both knitting and crochet, and a large variety of other crafts weaving for one, embroidery. Fiber crafts is a very large overarching word. It is an overarching, like craft community. And so it’s making sure you’re still being good to the other people in that community and not looking down on their work. Because it’s not the same as what you do. Yeah.

Amanda

But yeah, yeah, no, I totally agree. I think I, it’s fresh. It doesn’t surprise me. But it’s really, it makes me very sad. I think that like there is such a hierarchy in all world, like, a social hierarchy. In all craft areas, fiber arts, not being you know, like, I feel like at the top, like we’re, you know, knitting is always treated with more cachet, and reverence. And, you know, I grew up in a family where like, no one knit, we were poor, and all the women in my family, they could have shade. And I think it’s because you could turn out product, a lot product, whatever, you could turn out your finished product a lot faster, which you needed to because you probably worked and had a family and so many other things you had to do. And you know, everybody was always crocheting gifts for one another, or just taking that time to have time to themselves, right. And I think about all the women I grew up around who like were crocheting and buying those, like cheap crochet bag magazines at the grocery store checkout, and like, you know, reusing all their yarns, and I don’t I just feel like knitting has become an always has been this more like middle upper middle class thing and crochet has been lower class. And it’s really silly, because I do feel like, especially for like millennials, like crochet has more aesthetic value.

Christina

It’s I think it’s some of that return to the 70s aesthetics that were like so many of us are craving. I know I even described like what I do as like 70s inspired and you can see it in my patterns a little bit, but like, Oh, more vintage inspired. But that’s also like it’s the same thing of like what target is trying to emulate. But I think it’s also because you’re saying you want it done quickly. I think even if you don’t have a lot of time, like having it done quickly looks different. Because it’s seeing that when you took an hour to yourself, if you took 30 minutes to yourself, you got more done. I think some of it’s just that it’s like knowing that if you take 30 minutes, you can actually see progress and you can have that little bit of fulfillment from it versus for granted, I’m also not good at knitting. So this is not a good example. But this is what I have of like, it takes me a very long time to knit a square. That’s where I’m at with knitting I can sometimes maybe if I try really hard to knit a square, it takes me a lot of hard work to get there. At this point, I’m also fast enough at crochet that it does not take me as long to knit a square, or not miss where to but to to crochet a square. I think that kind of is linked a little bit where it’s like, you want to make sure that when you’re, finally have time to yourself that you’re getting returns on that, because like we do deserve, like, treat ourselves as something we enjoy. And it shouldn’t just be this like, well, I sort of made progress, I think. And there’s people who knit much quicker than that, who are like, I don’t know, you’re talking about 30 minutes, it’s so much time. It’s not me, I’ll never be me. But

Amanda

I mean, time is such a luxury also, like you’re getting up is having that 30 minutes to yourself. And to be able to make something in that time is like, so important for your mental health. As you know, don’t get me wrong, like knitting can be like I said, I really enjoy it, I can find it to be very cathartic when there’s a lot of chaos in my mind. But, you know, if I want to even just knit something as simple as a scarf, that’s a long project. And sometimes it takes me three years to do it, because I don’t have the luxury of that kind of time for my job. And many, many people are in the same position. And I hate that there’s this classism associated with crochet. It doesn’t surprise me. This is the world we live in. But it’s very disappointing. And I think that’s why we don’t have, like 20 minute, like snarky videos about turning clothing, making clothing out of crocheted blankets. Like I think that everybody’s like, whatever. Yeah, and I think that that’s why more people are like, Yeah, of course, I $30 is a totally reasonable price for a crocheted sweater at Target. Like why wouldn’t it be?

Christina

And I think I also want to like say like speed is super relative, because I know I’m not like, I know to think they’re like outside person. I’m pretty fast or crochet. But in reality, I probably like middle of the pack. And some of that is for me, like my tendinitis, but like no matter what I think, like you were saying with like, knitting is like cathartic. It’s the rhythm of crochet. It’s why I love doing anything with like granny squares, is because it’s that rhythm that I know I’m so familiar with that allows me to crochet during class where it helps me pay attention to my professor more. It’s that like rhythm that helps me like, oh, no, I’m freaking out. And I can like return to it again. And again, again. And I think no matter what, for me, at least, like part of the joy of bringing more people to the craft and part of the joy of making sure that more people are able to enjoy the craft in like the different communities in the different forms you can come in, is ideally giving that to people that beautiful thing of knowing that you have something you can make that you can find joy in and that maybe can give you a little something back. So for me, it’s like managing my ADHD and anxiety for you. It’s that catharsis for someone else, it might be like I made a pretty square, it doesn’t matter what you’re getting out of it. I think what matters is that you feel welcome to get that out of it is more of what it means. I don’t know if that makes sense. But

Amanda

no, I think that sounds great. That sounds great. One last thing. I just wanted to talk about something that you said, when we were talking before you said social media is keeping crafting alive. Oh, yeah, totally. And I thought that I was like, Yeah, you’re you’re right. In fact, like, I think that social media, especially during the pandemic made crafting, like, I don’t know, like aspirational. And it built communities, I mean, social media, all kinds of communities during the pandemic that I hope aren’t gonna go away. I was talking to someone last night and he said, Yeah, like experts in like the social media area are actually saying, like, engagement is really low right now. Because people are out living life again, which is great. But I do think that during MC we a lot of us found our people, if you will, who lived far away I have all these friends who I’ve never met in real life, right? I know, we all found that and I can see how crafting is a major part of that.

Christina

It is and I think even actually, way before the pandemic I remember having this discussion with a friend, the friend who actually taught me how to crochet So shout out to Jesse. But where I was like yeah, I think it’s like social media is like how crochet and knitting are like alive still and she was like, Oh 100% And it’s because you see this thing and I even I see it on Tik Tok like a decent amount. As I spend more time on tick tock where people like, will literally see someone like crocheting. You’re seeing something doing things because on there, you actually like videos of people like the process like a very abbreviated. Like, that looks really cool. I want to do it too. And so sometimes you get like these two tutorials, etc. But no matter what, even on Instagram, it’s like it makes it so you can build community. So if you feel like thrown out of the snobby yarn shop, you can kind of like show up there and be like, Hey, I just dropped in here. What’s up everybody, and you can make those connections. But also you can see things and learn things from people that you might not have had any access to before. So I know I’ve been slowly dipping my toes into the possibility of learning how to like do tatting lace, I can tell you right now, I would not have one known what tatting lace was, if it was not for social media, two would not know who to learn from if it was not for social media, through I wouldn’t even know what a tatting shuttle is, is if it wasn’t for social media. So we see these things in part because we’re putting it in front of people again, which is also kind of when you mentioned social media engagement is going down. I’m so happy people are you know, like going and living their lives safely. I implore you to do it safely. For someone who’s immunosuppressed, I implore you to do it safely. But I think it is in some way sad because as we’re also seeing, like anyone who builds their business off social media, they’re like, oh, okay, great, cool. How do I show this to people again? And I think for those of us who have any kind of like, I guess I think I put like patterns in like the suppliers category of like, I help supply people with the tools they need, or they want to crochet with it kind of sucks, because I’m like, no, no, come back crafting as fun and come back. But I do still no matter what thinks that like social media that some of these crafts that might otherwise kind of go unknown about just unknown in general, and granted knitting crochet, I don’t think we’re on in the unknown category. But there’s definitely other crafts that I again, I there’s another lace that I think it’s the bobbin lace, I would not know a bobbin laces, period. If it was not for social media, I definitely don’t understand how it works. But I now know, there’s people who literally saw the same person that I did, doing their bobbin lace thing, and they’re like, I’m gonna learn that. And so they’re learning these crafts that might have otherwise gone, potentially died, literally. And then we would have had to be like trying to resurrect these very large books on how to do it without any like guidance, because most of these books are also written with an understanding of you have already learned this. I’m not teaching it to you. Kind of thing. It’s the same thing I see in like, whenever you work with like actual vintage patterns, they’re assuming a different level of knowledge.

Amanda

Oh my gosh.

Christina

So you want to punch somebody?

Amanda

Yeah, I’m like, I’m not there. I bought a veteran’s and I was like, I don’t I don’t understand what’s happening here at all.

Christina

Yeah, I, I was I was using a vintage pattern to like, make my wedding dress and there was definitely times I would consider myself an incredibly skilled crochet. Err, there was times where I was like, I cannot get this dead person alive and make them make this make sense to me. I will be incredibly honest to anyone who’s getting into the craft right now. Steer clear for the first like few, like projects of vintage patterns, please do yourself that favor. I’m telling you right now, like, look at me in my like fake eyes. Don’t do that to yourself. So it’s things like that, though, that no matter what, because those vintage patterns, I think, if you don’t have any understanding of the craft, they definitely don’t make any sense. And so how social media is keeping these crafts alive is honestly kind of magical to me. Because I, I 100% think more people got in I know, I know for a fact they did. I literally had people tell me Yeah, I learned how to knit during the pandemic. Or I learned how to crochet during the pandemic. And I think being able to also see their friends who had been doing it for a while and understand that some of those connections they were finally making make sense is superduper cool. But yeah, that’s some of my opinions. Hopefully. Hopefully, they made sense.

Amanda

No, I love it. And I hope you know, there was this great resurgence in craft in the 90s. And it became like a cool community driven activity, right and like craft which had sort of been like fallen by the wayside in the 80s it’s a very different time to be alive, I guess. You know, it regained it’s sort of like credibility. And it’s, I don’t know, just people appreciated it more, right. It wasn’t like easy to knit or crochet or quilt or any of these things. And it became very, very popular without the Internet. And the I think it kind of fell through the, by the wayside as people were getting more and more into just like avocado toast and traveling social media and like influence your lifestyle, right. But it came back and it’s come back in a really big way, thanks to the pandemic, in a strange way, right. And thanks to social media, and it will be interesting to see. I just feel like our lives have changed so much in the past few years and like what we accept as normal are part of a routine that I can only assume that the next few years are going to be similarly absurd and weird and surprising at the end. And so I don’t I My hope is like how, you know, and there’s no answer for this right now, because we don’t know what’s going to happen. But it’ll be interesting to see how, theoretically, communities that arose online during the pandemic could transition into real life as we’re able to be around one another again. And I, I wonder if that will happen, and how it will be different because one of the things about social media that is both a blessing and a curse, is that anybody can be anyone they want. Sometimes, that means they’re being a total asshole troll. But sometimes it also makes people feel more it can feel more inclusive in a weird way, because everybody’s sort of equally anonymous. And I wonder how that will transition into real life? Or if it’ll be a lot of people being like, crochet. It’s just like, not very innovative or whatever.

Christina

You know, such a weird comment.

Amanda

It’s such a weird, it’s so cheesy, like embarrassed for the person who said because, you know, they say things like that all the time, and they’re terrible. Well, that’s all I had to ask you. Do you have any like, final words of wisdom, or parting thoughts, you’d like to leave everybody with?

Christina

Um, I think if you haven’t gotten into grafting, do it. It’s very fun. But I also I beg of you to be smart about not smart. But be conscientious of like, who you’re buying from how you’re buying things. And if you’re wanting to get into crafting, might I recommend the super great place to start up the thrift store. There’s plenty of projects there. There’s plenty of things there that people have started. But then they never finished and they end up there or someone tried to take a picture and it just didn’t work out for them. But don’t worry, their hooks and their yarn are there for you now. And no matter what I can promise you. I think crafting is such a good thing. I I’m incredibly biased, but I hope if you take it up that you’re able to find joy and solace in it the way so many have before you. And there’s a great community waiting for you to enjoy that with so please come join us come play.

Amanda

Yes, come and join us. It’s fun. It’s easy. And yes. The thrift stores are full of all the materials you need either bought a brand new craft material and so long. It’s amazing.

Christina

Honestly, find find your local creative reuse stores. Those are a great place to start.

Amanda

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We have a great one here in Austin. All right. Well, thank you so much. This was such a delight.

Christina

Thank you so much. I really appreciate you having me.

Thanks again to Christina for spending a few hours talking to me. You can find her on instagram @inchwormcrafts and she has a whole series of links in her profile for browsing and purchasing her patterns. She is currently participating in the Etsy strike that I discussed in the last episode, so if you’re listening to this in April 2022, you’ll have to buy her patterns elsewhere.

I’m personally really excited to see so many makers in our community participating in the Etsy strike. It’s really easy to feel like you as one person can’t make a difference, especially when it comes to slaying a huge dragon like Etsy. The same goes for massive companies like Starbucks and Amazon. And yet, here we are, seeing individuals doing the work to unionize, taking that very scary chance in order to make life more equitable and overall better for others.

You don’t have to start a union at your job or shut down your business for a week to make an impact. But you can start a lot of people on the path to change within your own sphere of influence. Whether that’s teaching them about fabric or introducing them to their local Buy Nothing Group. Or showing them the magic of secondhand gifts or skipping the quasi-disposable bachelorette party tees in favor of wearing the same color instead…well, these things make an impact. When you lead by example, when you SET THE EXAMPLE for a new and better way of living, others notice and they make those changes, too. Be the example, be the innovator, be the influence that your community needs!