Episode 136: Bodysuits and School Clothes Shopping (Unpacking Wardrobe Trauma with Maggie)

Welcome to Clotheshorse, definitely not the only podcast with body suit related trauma!

I’m your host Amanda and this is episode 136.

By now you should know that I never believe that it is “just clothes” or “just fashion.” We spend a lot of time around here talking about how the fashion industry has a massive impact on the people and its planet. I think by now no one is going to argue with us about that, but if they do, we have plenty of arguments and data to persuade them otherwise.

But the mere clothing we wear has such a significant impact on our mental health, our comfort, our feelings of fitting in or standing out, our general well being! And even people who say that they don’t care about clothes or what they wear…well, they DO have favorite outfits, garments, items that make them feel their best (even if their idea of “best” is just flying under the radar or being really cozy). Clothing is a big deal…that’s why it’s such a massive industry. Yes, we need clothes to shelter us from the elements, to keep us warm, to protect us from the sun and wind. But clothing still wouldn’t be such a big money maker, the billions of dollars juggernaut that it is…if clothing wasn’t an important part of personal self expression and our sense of self.

That’s what today’s episode is all about! I am so excited about today’s guest. Okay, I realize that I might say that about every episode and every guest, but I’m just a really excited person! Today you’ll get to meet Maggie, the Chief Everything Officer of Maggie Greene Style. She’s going to do a great job of telling you what she does and how she does it, so I’m not even going to bother. We’re going to talk about the difference between “style” and “big fashion.” And Maggie is an expert in the realm of wardrobe and shopping trauma and she’s going to break it down for us. I promise that many of you are going to be nodding your heads as you listen to it…saying “YES, I feel seen!”

Our conversation is so personal, so intense at times, that I wanted it to stand alone in this episode. I had planned a big segment about the fashion media and how it promotes greenwashing…but I’m going to move that to next week’s episode (where it makes a lot more sense any way). Maggie and I are going to be talking about some really personal stuff today, including our own shopping and wardrobe trauma. We are also going to be exploring the roots of our wardrobe trauma, which unfortunately begins in our childhoods with some really not-great adults in our lives. We won’t be talking about abuse per se, but this conversation could be triggering for some.

With that, let’s jump right in…

Amanda

Why don’t you go ahead and introduce yourself to everybody.

Maggie

Hi, everyone. My name is Maggie green. And I am the chief everything Officer of Maggie green style, which I describe as a one woman band on a mission to transform how you see yourself.

Amanda

I love that.

Maggie

Thank you. Work with leaders, entrepreneurs, aspiring versions of both, as well as individual contributors to create visibility for themselves, and work in life and in play.

Amanda

Amazing IB. As we’re going to talk about ad nauseam today, clothes, whether you like it or not, are very powerful and important. Yes, they are. They are right. Even if you say you’re not a style person, even though you say don’t care about clothes, I guarantee you do care about what you wear and how it makes you feel when you wear it. So we’re going to talk all about that today. So Maggie, I get a lot of people on the podcast, myself included, who kind of just ended up working in fashion or working with clothes. Other people, you they were born for it, like they came out of the womb with like a pair of like scissors for fabric scissors that can only be used on fabric. But the majority of people who come on the show are kind of like No, I actually never saw this for myself. So I’m wondering, for you, were you always thinking you were gonna grow up and help people get dressed?

Maggie

I mean, the short answer is no. It’s interesting. You mentioned that analogy, like from the womb, I can definitely recall, like that early. Having, like an affinity for clothing, shoes and accessories. I mean, I’ve always been obsessed with style. But yeah, it was not until well into my 30s that I thought it might be something that I could do on a professional level. Yeah, it was kind of a pipe dream, a little fantasy of mine. I think before that. Yeah. Was wasn’t in the cards, or at least I didn’t think it was,

Amanda

yeah, I can hear that. Because I definitely in the same way, remember being very young and being very into clothes and shoes and jewelry and the entire, the entire act of building what you were going to wear that day, you know, like it was, I can’t remember as early as first or second grade being really engaged with that. But the idea of working in fashion just seemed like a total impossibility as a person living in a small town, you know, coming from literally no money like negative money, like debt versus any money in the checking account. Right? It just seemed like that was a life for other people, people who maybe had been on a yacht, or went to finishing school or something.

Maggie

Yeah, I feel you on that. Likewise, I grew up in a small town. I’m from the rural south. And, you know, fashion just wasn’t a thing that people we even related to let alone like, you know, a possible possibility for career. We, we grew up really poor as well. In fact, I recall, at one point, we lived in a housing project, and they actually paid us like 18 months. 18 bucks a month to live there. So yeah, I feel extremely limited resources. I also feel you on, you know, thinking about what outfits to wear, like the first day of school outfit was always just really iconic these days. Yes. Yes. Higher

Amanda

School Year was going to be defined by what you wear that first day.

Maggie

That’s right. Yes. Super important. And Picture Day is a whole other level.

Amanda

Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely not the same outfit felt like you wouldn’t wear your first day of school outfit for picture day, like totally different. You know. I mean, I remember, you know, we didn’t get a ton of school clothes. We just didn’t have those means, but my grandma would always take me shopping for some school clothes in like late July. And on that day, that’s when I would settle on what that first day of school outfit was going to be. And it would hang fully assembled with all accoutrement in the closet like at the very front so that I can open it every day and get myself hyped about wearing these clothes.

Maggie

I literally like I feel so seen right now. I don’t think I’ve ever heard another soul describe like that relationship with that outfit that first day outfit and like admiring it and curating it and like weeks in advance. You knew right like yeah yeah. same

Amanda

no matter what the weather was on the first day of school, there was no adjustment. This is what you were wearing, right? Yes. Right. So there were many first days of school where I was incredibly sweaty, or cold, depending on what that outfit ended up being. More often than not, it was sweaty, because it was always like more fall type clothing. But like in Pennsylvania, it’s still pretty hot at the end of August, you know, doesn’t matter, the outfit was important. Right? Yes. So you told me when we were preparing for this that you know, there was one job in the fashion industry that you kind of let yourself fantasize about having which was writing product descriptions for J Peterman.

Maggie

Yes. Very Alain Venice from sorry. Very.

Amanda

Yeah. I, I was thinking about that earlier today. Because, you know, like, I don’t even know is the J Peterman catalog around anymore? Probably. Probably.

Maggie

Yeah. I don’t think it’s in print anymore. 2022. And everything’s digital first now. But I do still see social posts from them. And it’s that same iconic format. It’s just like, we’re looking at a Pico and we know it’s a Pico. But there’s this, like, two and a half pages of story. And there’s, you know, this specific context and setting and it’s all about the feelings and like, yeah, I just was so turned on by that I’ve always loved writing. And I thought, you know, maybe maybe that was a way that I could kind of combine my obsession with style, and my affinity for writing. It didn’t work out that way. And in retrospect, that I’m laughing because this was me at like, 1415 years old. And I thought, in that moment, that was, that was really shooting for the stars, like, that’s the best that I could do.

Amanda

I mean, to be fair, that’s pretty top notch. And I think like, while I might not be super into the J Peterman, clothing aesthetic, like I do, as a person for whom the clothing I wear is actually a really big deal and a really major player in how I’m going to feel each day. I really appreciate the idea of narrative around the things we wear. And, you know, in the era of like, we’re launching, you know, like, 500 new products every week, and the copy is just like, imported, or weighed Yes. 28 on a small model is 510, imported, 100% polyester, like, that’s the kind of product copy we get now, on a lot of these websites, primarily, because, you know, it’s like, it’s all about getting as much product live on the site that the era of flowery copy is over. And more importantly, like, unfortunately, what I’ve discovered in my career, is that nobody reads any of it. So yeah, I get it. But I do think that like the, there is something that has been lost in terms of like creating a story and an emotional relationship with the things that you buy and where and it’s really hard to fall in love and develop a deep attachment to something that says 34 inch inseam imported 50% So I don’t 50% Cotton, you know what I mean? Like it just cool. Wow. Can’t wait to wear whatever that garment is? Right? Yes. Yes. So okay, why? Why didn’t you go into fashion or clothing something adjacent? earlier?

Maggie

I honestly did not feel it was accessible to me. It seems so far removed and far from my reach, like, socially speaking, culturally speaking, it just did not feel like it was a fit. So there was that aspect, but there was also you know, I’m a first generation college student, a first generation homeowner, so I didn’t have any models, right or career path. And when I started thinking about school and what I might want to do, the immediate priorities were like practical in nature, like how can I survive? How can I make sure the bills are paid, you know, not end up homeless? How can I afford to have the wardrobe of my dreams like what’s gonna give me stability so that I can keep myself and clothes that I want? Yeah, and I mean on top Have that I grew up in a highly dysfunctional, toxic, abusive environment that just was not conducive to exploring at least on any deep level, like my creative desires. In fact, when it came to fashion, there was a bit of, well, a considerable amount of discouragement. And, you know, I did I describe it as like, tant trying to tamp out a fire, like, the first day of school of, you know, the first outfit of the year, just like created this passion, you know, and in trying to express it, I was immediately met with criticism, and, you know, so when I, when I say it wasn’t accessible, just it was, there were so many barriers between myself and what I wanted, that I just wanted a totally different direction. The direction that I thought, again, would offer stability, and it wasn’t as much of a priority to have like, that kind of creative turn on aspect. I didn’t give myself permission to do that until much later.

Amanda

Yeah, I mean, I like hearing you talk, I just see so much of my, my childhood. My teen years reflected, you know, it’s, it’s, I felt as if dreaming was really discouraged. And it was just sort of like, like, I don’t know how it was for you growing up. But for me, it was like the expectation that was that the moment I hit adulthood, I was expected to move out and care for myself, because I’d been such a burden for too long, you know, and so it was sort of like, what, what can I do that will be practical, like, for me, I basically went to college, so that I wouldn’t be a burden on my family anymore. I mean, also, so I could get out of there and be as far was way as possible, I can look back. And as you were talking, like, remember all the times, I was really discouraged from thinking about what I wore, or caring about it, or told that I was basically like an, like an idiot for caring.

Maggie

Yeah. And, you know, people who are not like us who don’t have that relationship with clothing, and that just interest creative. You know, propensity, I guess, for style and personal expression. They don’t get it and they see the idea. I mean, of course, in an abusive environment, it didn’t matter what I was talking about was like, whatever you’re interested in, I’m gonna criticize you for you know, I’m gonna try to take that away from you. But yeah,

Amanda

definitely, it could have been music. It could have been it could have been related to science, and he would have been squashed.

Maggie

But you know, as far as style and fashion go, like, I think a lot of people see it as this kind of two dimensional, like, really superficial. I don’t know. Like, it’s, it’s even more than a privilege. It’s just like this. Yeah. Like I said, suit, superficial. Luxury, maybe? It’s not important.

Amanda

Oh, absolutely. It’s, it’s materialistic. That was I mean, I, I am completely estranged from my mom, I haven’t spoken to her in like two and a half years now. And it was the best decision I ever made for my mental health. Although I wouldn’t have guessed that. And because, you know, like, relationships with mothers are really complicated. And you feel as though you’re supposed to no matter what, take what you get from this person, because you owe your life to them, right. And the thing that my mom would always paint me as as both a kid because I cared about clothes. And as an adult, who actually accidentally ended up working in that industry, is that no matter what I did, in my personal life, or career, no matter what I achieved, or the things I learned, or the good things I did for other people and the world around me, it didn’t matter because my interest and clothing made me shallow, and materialistic, and my life sort of meaningless. And this, even as an adult was really being pushed my way that my job which was ultimately like has made me whatever this means, like, you know, the most financially successful person and my mother’s family, right? Which certainly involves a lot of hard work, and learning and experience and skill on my part, was always just dismissed as this dumb stupid thing that I was doing. That just was like made me a bad materialistic Orson,

Maggie

I hate, I hate that for you.

Amanda

I hate it for me too. I mean, listen, I get that a lot of people who think thought for a long time that as a buyer, I went shopping for a living. And really what I was doing was like, really elaborate critical thinking like every day, then somehow involved clothes a little bit. But I do think that that’s the idea out there that if you care about how you look, it’s almost like, if you show up in an outfit that looks like too much effort went into it, you’re automatically like, a very shallow on interesting person. I completely disagree. But I’ve gotten that pushback from people before. Socially, even, you know?

Maggie

Yeah, I would say in my experience, it was anytime I tried to achieve something, or like, lean into that, which was uniquely me, which, of course was not in alignment with, again, what was modeled before me. I didn’t have peers, right. And my family, I was kind of the black sheep it was, every time I explored that or expressed that to any degree. There was this accusation or kind of implication that I thought that I was better.

Amanda

I knew that was coming. Because this is what I would always hear that word better, that I thought I was better. Yes.

Maggie

And thinking of like some of the core memories, right? In my most formative years, I remember my maternal grandmother, like I, I heard her say this in other contexts, but then it was handed down, right, I heard it from my mom, and she was speaking to me and other relatives. My mom’s sister who I refer to as my primary abuser, it was this idea of like, you can’t get above your raisins. Not raisins, like dehydrated grapes, but like,

Amanda

I thought, raisins, too. But nature’s candy.

Maggie

Like, you’re stuck here, like you, you’re part of the cycle, and there’s no way out of it. And to think that you might be able to transcend that barrier at any point is like, number one to leave us behind. And how could you even conceive of that right after everything we’ve done for you, like was like a, a personal affront to them. Like I was trying to do something different and better, because I thought that they weren’t good enough. It’s creepy. It’s really messed up.

Amanda

It is really messed up. But I feel like you’re, you’re speaking about my life. I mean, I think definitely, for me, like, moving away, going to school, traveling, living in different places, having a career. It made me the black sheep of my family, like I, on my mother’s side, but no one no one cares about me or communicates with me or had any interest in seeing me, I would come home to visit for the holidays. My airport is about two hours away from my mom’s house, and no one would even come and pick me up from the airport. Like, you know, I get to my mom’s house and there wouldn’t be any food there for me to eat to be like, Well, now you need to go to the grocery store. Now that you’re here, like it was always very, very strange. And very, I thought maybe that’s how all other families were to, that they once their kids were grown up, they just didn’t I mean, I didn’t matter when I was a kid either. But at least they were required by law to make me matter. I thought that’s gonna be how a lot of families were. And as I got older and interacted with other people and had more serious relationships with people, whether they were friendly or romantic, and I met their families and saw them interact, I was like, Oh, wait, people love people that are related to and do kind things for them and are excited to see them and are proud of them. And that’s just not what my experience has been, you know, that like somehow I was by going off and I don’t know, like living my life to the fullest or trying to I was an affront to everybody in my family.

Maggie

I I just I feel so much empathy and just as you’re saying like, of course we we have a lot in common when you mentioned the, the empty fridge like I can’t say I mean, there were definitely times when I experienced or family experience food scarcity, but like thinking about your own family dynamic and then you you get exposed to other dynamics and I’m like, Okay, this is different. Like one thing that occurred to me is snacks like kids are just allowed to have like, open access to the snack cabinet at anytime like

Amanda

I mean a match

Maggie

What do you mean? Can I have anything? Are you serious? Are you sure I’m worthy? You know?

Amanda

Yeah, ya know that I definitely noticed that in elementary school, my best friend Kara was an only child. And there were tons of snacks and cereals and all sorts of things for after school consumption. And my mom, kind of Loki did not want me to keep going there after school because I think she thought I was filling me with my head with ideas about access to snacks.

Maggie

Right, like the horror, or Yeah,

Amanda

exactly, exactly. I mean, all this to say that you and I are both very passionate about style. And we both agree that it’s really important. And even though people think style and fashion are the same thing, you and I, as people who are very into what we aware, we see the distinction there. Oh, yes. So why don’t you explain it for everybody?

Maggie

Okay, okay, I’ll keep this pretty simple. Okay. Okay. Always, especially like the very first conversation that I have with a stranger potential client, like, I need you to know this about me, because there might be misconceptions or assumptions. So they come into the conversation ready to talk about fashion, like, we can talk about fashion, but I want to introduce you to the distinction between fashion and style. So the way I see fashion, is sometimes I call it big fashion. It is. Yeah, it’s the system, it is the rules, quote unquote, rules. It is the messaging. It is honestly antithetical on an ethical level, to what I, what I enjoy what I’m passionate about. It’s, it is a, an architecture and infrastructure that is set up to prioritize profit over people. And style is this whole other open world in which there are no rules. There are no standards or expectations, it is highly personal, highly individualized. And in contrast to, as I described, big fashion, right? It’s all about the individual. It’s all about prioritizing people over profit. It’s kind of the simplest, definition, I guess, or distinction I’ll share. But style to me, like I said, there are no rules. So in this world, everything is our choice. Versus in fashion, where it’s really like a series of manipulation tactics to influence your behavior, and inspire you to buy, buy, buy. And style, at least in my world. And in my work, you know, there’s, of course, there’s a sustainability component, which maybe we’ll talk about at some point, but it’s really about being thinking critically and intentionally about, like what you were as an outward expression and manifestation of who you are internally, it’s like creating alignment between those two influences. So that how the world sees you, as a more accurate reflection of who you actually are, how you want to be seen.

Amanda

Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think that style is so powerful, you know, and it really is so personal. And I think that’s why when you hear people who maybe are a little uncomfortable, because maybe they haven’t been given like the permission to express themselves via what they wear, they’ll say things like, Oh, I could never wear that. Right? Because they’re the rather than understanding that it’s their choice to wear it. They’re seeing it as this like set of rules that’s put hadn’t been put in place by big fashion, which includes fashion media, right? And oh, yes, right. All of it, which will tell you oh, here are six outfits. You is an allegedly pear shaped or banana shaped person can wear Right? Like we have these rules like oh, sorry, I am over this age. So I can’t wear a miniskirt and I need to chop off my hair and like all the other bullshit. I saw something last week or someone was like people over 30 shouldn’t wear black eyeliner was like, oh, what what are we doing here? You know, but like these rules that are grounded in nonsense, you know, all of that. All of the bad things like misogyny and anti fat bias and racism, ageism, all those things. That’s where these rules come from. And all of those bad bad things are have deep roots within big fashion, but they don’t need to be a part of style at all. And they shouldn’t be a part of style.

Maggie

Yeah, I love what you said about rules, like, whatever we have perceived or learned as rules and expectations with respect to what we were like, Who created this playbook? Like? The answer is patriarchy. Right? It’s always it’s

Amanda

always patriarchy, which is interesting. You know, the patriarchy would have you believe that what you wear is dumb, and not something you should think about too much. And if you do, then you’re really shallow, probably on smart person whose thoughts aren’t important to hear. Yet at the same time, the patriarchy is like, btw, we have all these rules around what you can and cannot wear. You need

Maggie

this to feel complete. Or, like there, there’s no such thing as enough and like whatever pain you might be experiencing right now, here’s the solution, this new capsule collection where you have to buy every single piece, right? Or, you know, look out for the summer sale or the mid season post season sale, like, Yeah, they really, I say they, you know, when I think of the patriarchy, I picture like this conference room, and it’s like, six or eight, like just crusty, old white dudes, like deciding what’s next and what’s best for us. That doesn’t resonate with me at all care about me, you’re, you know, you’re, you’re trying to leave a legacy for your family, you’re trying to get rich before you die. And there’s no place for me there. You know,

Amanda

I mean, I will tell you as a person who has worked in this industry for a very long time, that actually the patriarchy really is running the show. Like literally not even figuratively, every job I’ve had, primarily the middle management and the rest of the workforce has been female. And the top, the executives are always White Men of a Certain Age. Like always, my very first buying job. And I’ve talked about this on the podcast before, we all had open seating. In fact, everywhere you work now in fashion, it’s open seating, meaning we’re all just sitting at tables, and no one has any privacy, or chance to concentrate. There’s not even cubicles, because cubicles aren’t stylish, right? And so in, in my first job, and really almost all the other ones after that, you look out in the open seating, there’s just tons of people working, they’re all women, there’s always somewhere in my first job, it was all along one side of the building. There were just offices, right, and the offices for for the executives, and all the offices were occupied by men, white men, always right. And then women doing all the other work out there on the floor. But then we would have these meetings where we would basically be trying to prove to the white men that lived in the offices, that we knew what we were doing that we were smart enough to have that job, it was like we would be in contests to see how much we could please them with how smart we were in good, how good we were at picking out clothes, but also how attractive we were as we were presenting those clothes, and being just like a little flirty, not too much, but enough to make them feel special. While we presented our buying strategy to them. Like it always felt like being in a weird beauty pageant, where you also just had to have a lot of spreadsheets.

Maggie

Yeah, like personality contests, like as you were describing this, I know they are talking about like, somewhere in the mid 2010s or whatever. Right? But this sounds so much like 1850s Madison Avenue like,

Amanda

I I know, I mean, I will think about things that happened to me my career. And they sound like they’re from Mad Men. Oh, oh, your boss coming over and rubbing your back while you’re sitting at your computer. Yeah, like know that it wasn’t 1980 or 1950. It was 2010. Or I gosh, I remember at one of my jobs, we had to go through this like merchant development program. And every other week we would go to like a four hour session that was educational in nature about like, how to use Excel or retail math or what you know, whatever. And one of them the founder of the company, came to speak, who is the whitest oldest richest man that I’ve ever been in a room with? And he was talking about how he’d started this company back in the 70s out of business school. And he said this thing like that makes my skin crawl Here’s later, he said, You know, when we realized that, that like young women, the important thing when you’re dressing girls is like you want them to feel sexy. So if, if it’s a long shirt, it has to be short in the back so you can see her but, and if it’s like a loose shirt than it needs to be low cut in the front, and like the most important thing is that girls feel sexy. And I just was like, why is this man telling me this? This is patriarchy right here. It’s all about like, Oh btw jobs, all fashion choices should be made with the male gaze in mind.

Maggie

That’s exactly what I was gonna say. So, if we’ve ever asked ourselves or ever wondered out loud, like, where does that internalize male gaze come from? It’s like, top down. Hello.

Amanda

Yeah, absolutely. And the thing is, I can look back now. And you know, look at all the years I worked there, I actually went to work for other brands and went back to that brand much later. And I could see the way the all of these women who were working would treat one another interact with one another, gossip about one another, and it was all rooted in that male gaze. And it was definitely a company where you couldn’t, you couldn’t even get hired there. If you were larger than a size eight. If you did somehow get hired and slipped through. You would never be promoted people would not be your friends. No matter how skillful or talented you were. You had to meet this certain measure of beauty and thinness that was required by some unspoken rule at this company that everyone knew, even if they never said it out loud. And that’s one place that’s one place in this large industry where it’s all happening, you know,

Maggie

got me thinking about the word flattering like you mentioned.

Amanda

I, yeah,

Maggie

it feels gross in my mouth. But I, you know, I’ve over the last year I’ve been really intentional about like, thinking about what that implies and who it speaks to, you know, and it definitely has that male gaze at its root. I think it’s like, flattering according to whom, who are we trying to impress here? That I, I’ve gone out of my way to just like abolish it entirely from my vocabulary. Like anyone that I work with any clients that I bring in like we we address that this is this word is outlawed. And in Yeah, all right. It’s

Amanda

gross. It’s weird. I don’t know why. But the word the word flattering always makes me think of snack wells. Which are disgusting also, but like, feel like you know, as a as like, in my late teens, it was like, or maybe I can know, late teens snack walls were already gone. Let’s think more like Junior High in junior high snack walls were what you ate. If you were an acceptable female. You know what I mean? Like, if you were socially accepted in the world, you had eat snack wells, and not real food. And I feel like flattering is what you have to do to be an acceptable female or acceptable person who is not a white sis hat male. That’s what you have to do is be flattering, right? Although I don’t think we talked to men as about wearing flattering clothes. Right? I otherwise think cargo shorts would be less popular. You know? Not? If you want my real opinion. They’re always hanging too low.

Maggie

Oh my gosh, yes.

Amanda

I’m just kidding. If you love your cargo shorts, keep wearing them. But make sure that you have them pulled up the whole way. Because sometimes I’m like that man. One false move. The shorts are gone. I think it’s all the stuff in the pockets. You know, it’s weighing it down. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, don’t put that many pockets on a garment that doesn’t connect the whole way up over your body. It’s just too risky.

Maggie

I need an OSHA consultant here. Safe.

Amanda

I think it needs to be like a cargo one piece. Although it could give you neck and back problems. If you overloaded those lower pockets. I don’t know. Anyway, we never talked about flattering in that way. Right. But yet, it is something that is like in I mean, I remember getting all the teen magazines, and they would all talk about like, basically you can wear this but you can’t wear that. But if you have this body, you can wear this but not that and it was always like, you know, equating your body type to or shape to that have some sort of fruit or vegetable? Or like, it was always like, do you have boobs or not, you know, like that, like, the age old quandary of do have boobs or not right? And what you can wear based on that. And I just think for some of us, it is so deeply ingrained in there, that it’s gonna be a lot of work to free ourselves of that. And I still, even though I know it’s bullshit every once in a while, I’ll get in my head about it.

Maggie

So I don’t know if it’s appropriate to share this story but you were talking about breasts and I happen to have have them there, ample and size, which is always been an interesting challenge. We’re finding clothing solucionario It is true. Yes, kind of tying it back to upbringing and personal style and like getting dressed for school I remember this very specific ring or style t shirt. It was like heather gray with black rings. And I’d had it maybe for a couple of months, like all of a sudden overnight, I woke up with B cups and so on the front of the shirt was printed the word whatever, you know, very cheeky and subversive for like a middle school or late elementary school. And here I am with B cups and it’s like the the letters had stretched like they were starting to stretch to such a degree. And I just remember being I mean, chastised at home of course, like, I would stand a certain way. And because I had breasts now, I was accused of calling attention to them. Like, there’s no hiding these guys, right? They’re part of my body. But I remember being picked on at school, like, everyone up to that point had complimented the shirt. Oh, that’s so haha, whatever, you know, and now all of a sudden I have boobs and like, the message is like literally distorted. And forget boobs are hard to clothing

Amanda

hard. So I have. I have a very, it’s so visceral. It’s like I’m if I think about this moment, I’m instantly transported there. And it was in 10th grade. So I had this body suit. It’s already this is already a dark story. If you know about suits and fogged you know what’s about to get wild? Oh yeah, I have this body suit that I had bought on sale at the express with my babysitting money. So this being from Express meant it was like a very exciting, luxurious article of clothing for me like this, you know, I probably paid 20 bucks for it, but it felt like it was 200 and it was gray pinstripe. And it had kind of like the cups on it, but not like rigid ones. But they had like the outline there. There wasn’t like, you know, wire or anything in there. But I mean, it was like boob a boob shirt. Except when I bought that bodysuit, I had no boobs, you know, like I was wearing abroad just to feel like I was uh, you know, womanly in some way or another right. And I got the body, you know, I wear the body suit to school. And I remember someone being like, oh my god, like, you know who else has that body suit but way bigger boobs. And it was this girl, Allison, who was a year ahead of me. And she walked by in the same body suit. And she definitely did have much, much more ample buzz in the me. And we both had this mortifying moment where we both covered our chests with our books and walked on. I am not kidding you that two weeks later, a weird thing happened overnight, which is that my boobs came in, if you will. But like, unbeknownst to me, sort of. And so I got up that morning, got dressed, put on that body suit, went to school, and I was walking down the hallway like due to due to normal day. And I could see my friend, Tricia, kind of a friend of me and she was like sort of a mean girl. And one thing she was hung up on and would talk about every day was like, how she really wanted to get boobs, like it was like she was doing exercises and push up bras and researching, like how she could possibly grow breasts ASAP. Like, whereas for me, I just didn’t really care. I had other things to think about. But for her, I mean, we all had that friend who was like, this is like what their their free bandwidth is going into thinking about how they’re going to get boobs. Oh, yeah, she’s at the other end of the hallway. And I’m walking towards her and I see her eyes get really big. And then she had this look on her face that I recognize now. It’s just over whelming jealous rage. Oh, Nestle came up to me and was like, Well, I don’t think you need to brag about them. And I was like, What do you mean? And I She’s She looked down and she was like, I think we both know and I think you put on a jacket and that was the day my boobs arrived and there they were.

Maggie

There’s no turning back. I mean, we can invest in minimizer bras if we want without put like they’re there. They’re a part of us and just by exist in does not mean like we’re a walking advertisement or like there’s any conscious like, showing it off. It’s just that’s internalized male gaze to, you know what I mean?

Amanda

Ya know, it’s so gross and i i definitely I think that that moment really lived with with me for a very long time, and I would wear a sports bra or two sports bras, well into my 20s. Like, just to like, you know, not offend anybody with my bosom, you know? But I think like, Never Have there been more style rules than there are for the covering and sheathing of breasts right?

Maggie

I saw a post on LinkedIn, this has been a couple months back and it was a cisgender white woman. And her question was just like, you know, warning, this is spicy, is gonna get it she’s like, do you consider cleavage exposed cleavage, any level of IT professional, or unprofessional? And of course, there’s, you know, a litany of dudes, like immediately, like, this is what I think. And I just, it was puzzling because of how is this even a question? Like our bodies exist? Right? Regardless of what clothing we put on? Like, there are some bodies, especially larger bodies, right? Where they there’s a lot going on up top, it doesn’t matter what you wear, there’s going to be, you know, cleavage of some kind. I just thought the question was in poor taste. And I thought the direction of the conversation was kind of dangerous and backsliding a little bit.

Amanda

I mean, people get wild on LinkedIn. I can’t believe I’m saying that. But the things I’ve seen on LinkedIn, in the past year or so, I’m like, Guys, this isn’t Facebook. If you want to be horrible, go do it on Facebook, where people go to do those things, you know,

Maggie

shit, I just realized, okay, so the lead like the first sentence was, let’s talk about melons, like she didn’t even view I hold on, what is unprofessional here? Yeah,

Amanda

wait, did she work in HR, because it’s always HR people get real crazy over there.

Maggie

I honestly I didn’t bother. I kind of it was like next after I saw that it’s been a few minutes, like, just processing. This is probably probably not someone with whom I want to be associated, associated so

Amanda

well. And we know, you know, like, for example, I think this is a great segue into this idea of like, professional, professional clothing, which is probably I think, as an adult, probably the place where most of us encounter the most rules around what we’re allowed to wear. And I know this gets into dodgy territory, because I understand to a certain extent, why dress codes exist in offices, banks, etc. Because they want like a very professional, polished look. The problem is that a lot of these ideas around professionalism, and dress codes, when it comes to our clothing really often stigmatize larger people, people who aren’t white people who aren’t cisgender people who have large breasts. I mean, like that, like, I was talking to someone the other day, who was telling me how they had had to send an employee home for wearing low cut shirts. And I sort of, I kind of wanted to, like fight with them about it. Yeah. Because like, sometimes, what doesn’t appear to be a low cut shirt is very low cut, depending on the shape of your body. Right? Exactly. And there’s this idea that, like, our bodies must be hidden away in order to be professional. And, like, I guess, you want your work your team at work to be clean, and clothed, practically and like there are many jobs in which what you wear would keep you safe. Like, I understand why you need to wear close toed shoes in a warehouse, right? Yeah, exactly like PPE. Like these things, right? Yeah. But like, just tell me exactly why having my arms uncovered is going to be like, just ruin the business.

Maggie

Exactly. And if if I’m interfacing with the public at a desk, and they can’t actually see anything below my waist, what does it matter if my skirt or my pants or whatever, like hit X, X number of inches below the knee and a seating seated position like I no one’s ever gonna see my legs. What are you talking about? Maybe it’s like, oh, you know? I’d say you’re you’re distracting your male co workers just like being cleared in school. You know, you’re it’s always the, the females and the students who are socialized as female, right that get called to task on that. It’s out Our problem to fix it’s not about training, you know, our our male students to mine their own fucking business, you know?

Amanda

Yeah, I remember there was, there was a thing at my high school where you couldn’t wear a shirt where your bra straps were visible. And I just, I still stand like, yeah, people wear bras like, what? What’s the problem? You know, like, especially, you know, growing bodies in high school are wearing bras. Yet we have to hide that like, are we just, I guess we’re also going to like hide and stigmatized ministration puberty as a whole? Who knows what else? Of course we are, right? Yeah, it’s all part of that package. But I this is where these style rules begin. I mean, they go back even earlier to when your parents like have to choose between whether they’re going to put you in pink or blue clothing.

Maggie

Oh, yes. Oh, that comes to dress codes. Like all of that is so highly gendered. And as as we’re coming to accept and embrace as a as Western culture specifically like that gender is a spectrum. in a professional context, you have a dress code that says, Okay, this is what men wear, and this is what women wear. But we know that men and women are not the only kind of people that we’re going to encounter at work. So where does that leave everyone else? Right? Right. Why couldn’t a man wear a dress if he wants?

Amanda

They’re more comfortable? They should everyone should be allowed to wear a dress if they want.

Maggie

Yes, I highly recommended. Yeah, we were comfortable than

Amanda

a pair of pants everyone free everyone in a tunic ASAP. Let’s do it. No, I in the future. It’s like a tunic wardrobe. I just know it. tunics for all

This idea of rules and policing our bodies and our identities via clothing, I really leads can lead to a lot of trauma related to clothing. And I know that this is something that you are an expert in.

Maggie

Yes, it feels good to hear that to be acknowledged and validated on that level. I’ve, I’ve experienced a great deal of trauma in my life. And as I think about those experiences, I think that’s primarily because I had such a close and deep relationship with clothing and style, that like the traumatic moments that occurred, those events that occurred in those contexts are more vivid than then some of the other experiences. But I also have come to notice, especially as I’ve been working in this field for a couple of years, and had an opportunity to work with all kinds of people, right, all body types, all gender expressions, that I’m not the only one who has experienced this release specific kinds of trauma. I’ve referred to it as wardrobe and shopping trauma. So it’s not, it’s not shopping for groceries. When I say shopping, it’s specifically and like a clothing acquisition context. Right? Right, right. It’s back to school, or we don’t have the financial resources at all to support so it’s hand me downs, and we’re going to garage sales and things like that. But, you know, based on my own experiences and observations with clients, it’s not even just a singular type of wardrobe and shopping trauma, there are like subtypes. There are four of them that I’ve identified so far. Perhaps that list will grow. But they’re, they’re very specific. And if you’re interested, I’d love to share I’m kind of I know I’m a nerd on the topic.

Amanda

I think that this is really, I think a lot of people listening to this are going to see themselves in what you’re about to share.

Maggie

Well, thank you for the opportunity. I really appreciate that. So we’re talking wardrobe and shopping trauma. We know that trauma in general, describes disturbing experiences, right? That, you know, no matter when or where they happen in our lives can have an impact well into, you know, decades later, right to have if it happens in childhood. It haunts you through adulthood or can. So, the four types of wardrobe and shopping trauma that I’ve identified so far, are chronological, circumstantial, financial, and hypercritical, and of course, these are all intersectional. Chances are if you’ve experienced one kind, you’ve also experienced another kind, either at the same time or in a in a different traumatic event. But it’s all about like I said, the relationship with clothes, but also the surrounding environment and influences. So in the context of chronological wardrobe and shopping trauma, there’s like a sense of urgency or some sort of time bound element where, like, the first example that comes to mind is the back to school shopping. And there’s a very specific time of year, likely late summer, early fall, see know that that’s coming. For some people, for a lot of us growing up, that was like, the one time that you might have gotten new items for your wardrobe, even if they were used, they are new to you, right. But it’s also, once you’re in the environment, like you’re in a store, or a thrift shop or garage sale, or whatever. It’s like, Okay, hurry up. We don’t have time to like really care about this at any great level. And especially for someone who loves clothing, having that pressure, you know, I’m also neurodiverse. So my concept of time is pretty skewed and having anyone tell me to hurry up, right? What’s taking oh, gosh,

Amanda

it gives me so much anxiety instantly. Yeah, yeah, it’s,

Maggie

it’s it’s really tough. circumstantial, the circumstantial subtype is, as the name implies, it, like relates to a specific event. A couple of things that come to mind are like, catastrophic, like, natural, you know, whether natural disasters or something like that, maybe you have a house fire, or it’s this specific, isolated event, you’re in attendance at a wedding, or just, it’s really unique, and it’s based on circumstances, versus like, there may be the chronological time bound element as well. But it’s kind of like that. Really isolated one off thing that happens not recurring, that’s happened one time and just, you know, has that lasting impact. Financial is probably the most obvious one, you know, it can be certainly it speaks to our shared history and experience, Amanda, where we’re coming from limited financial resources, right. So it’s, the element of money could be the absence of those resources, but it also can touch on shopping addiction, where it’s like, money is no object, right? And we’re trying to, to fill a void and in that activity, or in that behavior, we’re actually causing trauma in our lives. You know, there’s the shopping addiction in that experience, but there’s also acknowledging it, how it impacts your family. Maybe you lose your house, because you’re in a mountain of debt over, you know, your clothing, shopping addiction, you know, you’re addicted to Instagram ads and just can’t stop yourself. It’s true hyper. hypercritical is, I would say it’s the one that I personally experienced the most. And what I hear the majority of my clients sharing, which is it’s a kind of generational trauma, it’s really where any, anytime you’re getting dressed, or you’re thinking about clothes, or sharing about your body, or how you look in a specific outfit, you’re met with instant judgment and criticism, either about your body, the clothes that you’re wearing. It can happen when you’re in school, like I think that’s probably a shared experience across our entire, let’s say, middle school, high school experience, right. And a lot of these traumas happen, like within our most safe and sacred spaces, which makes them even more impactful and hurtful in the long term. You know, we’re, we’re all familiar with the concept of an internal monologue. Right? One of the questions that I asked my clients is, like, when you’re getting ready for work in the morning, and you’re getting dressed to go out with your friends, like whose voice Do you hear in your head? And a lot of times it is those, you know, those influences, those voices that said those hurtful things to you as a child or as a young adult or whatever, whenever it happened, right. trauma can happen at any time. But it’s, it’s interesting. It’s like that internal monologue becomes this weird kind of composite of all those really negative and critical influences. That’s like the The soundtrack to our trauma, you know?

Amanda

Yeah, no, I think it’s interesting that I mean, I can think of all of these times in which, specifically in school, but also outside of school, where someone made me feel bad about what I was wearing and how those feelings I still think of, you know, I still think of those moments as an adult. And why is it that we think of those people and not the people who said, Wow, you look really great today. Like, why is it the mean people who come back to visit us in our memories? Why is that?

Maggie

I don’t know. I wish I had an answer for that.

Amanda

I mean, I like there was this guy who I went, I grew up with his name was Gary Duke. And I’m gonna say his full name here because he deserves to be called out for being an asshole. And he like, in when we were in seventh grade, which was like, you’re like 12 in seventh grade, maybe turning 13 he drove to school. So he was older than us. He’d been held back a few years. I’m sure he had all kinds of problems at home. I can’t even imagine like, you’re probably not having a great life. But he would stand outside my homeroom every morning and be like, Good morning, ugly when I walked by. And I felt, I guarantee the Gary Duke hasn’t spent one moment of his adult life thinking about me, but every once in a while, I’d be like God was carried Doakes Duke so mean me, I wish I would have had to come back for him. You know. So unfair that it works that way.

Maggie

I remember like, when I’m thinking about elementary school, middle school, I through those years, for the majority of the time, I had like a bowl cut kind of DIY bowl cut. Yeah, started and started crying. Of course, I’m a natural blonde as well. So I think this was about third grade. As Ellen DeGeneres was becoming popular, but hadn’t yet come out. Yeah, I remember people, the kids right kids picking on me and saying, You remind me of ln and I remember feeling like really? Like, that was a compliment because she’s hilarious. And I you know, she’s a beautiful person. But that that carried through right like, again, small town, Kentucky super ignorant, really conservative. Once she came out, and they they continued to, to use that analogy to describe me and pick on me is like, okay, so you’re obviously equating a short haircut to lesbianism and I don’t have a problem with this, but I know that you’re framing this as an insult like you’re trying to hurt me. Beyond that, I’ll never forget that you look like Elon, you remind me of LM. And I was like, Oh, that’s so awesome. Because Thank you. Yeah, man.

Amanda

Yes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that’s, that is like, for me, it was, it was a struggle because I was an extreme late bloomer. I had cancer when I was a small child. And it just sort of set me back a few years in terms of growing so even by the time I’d reached high school, I still had to wear children’s size clothing. And I didn’t really grow into my full like, adult size until I was in college. And in elementary school, it didn’t matter that I was wearing kids clothes, because like, so was everybody else, right? But I do remember getting this dress that I loved and wearing it to school in sixth grade and this girl being like you like a baby, what are you a baby, and I felt so embarrassed, and it started and I love that dress it had like, all these ruffles on it that were black and white striped. And honestly say that word where I know it’s so good,

Maggie

posh sleeves.

Amanda

Yeah, it’s like, basically how I dress as an adult now, but it took me a lot of time to get there and just be that person. And it really set in motion. Just ah, so many tramatic shopping trips, where it was, it was inevitably like, you know, back to school, like you were saying, because that was one of the only times we ever went shopping for clothing unless there was some really important like someone was getting married or had to go to a funeral kind of thing coming up. And so I remember being on all of these back to school shopping trips, really wanting to be able to wear adult sized clothing, not being able to crying, being like I remember being in the I don’t even know what we were doing there. But we were in the Express in like eighth or ninth grade. And I was trying on clothes and of course all the pants were like six, eight inches too long for me. And the woman, the sales clerk I mean she was trying to be helpful, right But it was not what I needed to hear. She was like, Have you ever heard of limited to, oh should go there. And I just like had a meltdown, you know, I couldn’t go where get children’s clothes to go to school. And so there was definitely like a several year period, there were just even though I loved clothes, the act of going to get clothes was just excruciating for me, because it was like, one, we weren’t gonna be able to afford what I wanted in the first place. But then also my body was wrong. For what I wanted. So many of us have had this experience in one way or another, that it’s no wonder that so many people become adults and don’t feel comfortable shopping or picking out clothes for themselves. They just they won’t, they can’t they can’t let themselves.

Maggie

Yeah, that’s I mean, that’s one of the reasons why I’ve entered into this field and like, fully owned it and embraced it. And like, I find that a lot of this work in the very early stages is about granting permission. And it’s kind of weird to say that sound like, I’m not the authority here in your life, right? Like, I’m not here to tell you what to wear. But I want to create a space where you can kind of, you can unpack all that shit from the past. First of all, we’re going to analyze it critically and figure out like it What if anything that you’ve experienced is useful for moving forward. And a lot of times, like it’s granting permission, and just let that shit go with we’re going to start from scratch. If there are going to be any rules here. You get to write them for yourself. Like, what if every single thing that you thought was inaccessible to you? You could have? Right? What if you could wear all of these things? Right? Which you

Amanda

can? You can’t? Exactly, but I think it is true. I think that between the rules that we’ve been exposed to, and the critics in our lives who also have been exposed to these rules, we don’t feel free to wear what we want anymore. We don’t feel like we get to choose. It’s almost like this is a uniform, find the one that’s the least uncomfortable for you and wear it.

Maggie

Or the one the one that makes it easy to hide your body and right like, makes you blend into the background so as to not draw attention. Like, yeah, it’s, it’s so upsetting, and say upsetting. I’m just like, I’m really passionate about this. And I think if there’s any problem in the world that I want to solve, like, I feel like I’m equipped to solve, this is what I want to address for people, right? I want everyone to feel that power and joy and freedom. Also alignment, like knowing that the choices that you made from the point of purchase to like, curating, you know, styling, the actual outfit, those are your choices, you get to own them. No one else has a say, right? I want that for everyone. I really do.

Amanda

It must feel just like such a relief. It must feel so good for your clients. You know,

Maggie

I I’m thinking about one right now that literally in the last week, it was after our you know, pre conversation, pre podcast conversation, she messaged me on Instagram, with a photo of her wearing a crop top for the first time of her life. And I’m telling you like she’d sent me photos before, right I want to see what you consider every day. I also want to see what you consider is your best like give me give me a peek into, like what your style is right now. So I’m looking at these old photos. And they’re great. I mean, she’s a beautiful person and the clothes weren’t wrong or you know, there was nothing inherently wrong with them. But the look on her face when she’s wearing that cropped up and she looked like a totally different person. She was smiling. It was like all teeth, all joy and even as I’m telling you right now, it’s like it’s hard not to get choked up. I’ve got goosebumps all over my body because that is the jam. She came to me and said there are all these things that I’ve wanted my entire life to try a romper a jumpsuit a crop top and I’m terrified right? Like okay, I’m I’m here to create space for that fear and We’re gonna talk through that. And I’m gonna challenge you to just see what it’s like, just do it and see what happens. And she did. And she was like, I’m in love. It’s, it’s she was like, it’s more than like, I can’t even describe it. And I’ve, I’ve come to recognize this specific, like sensation as style euphoria. It is. So you this is, this is your moment. Can’t nobody tell you shit like this is? Look at you. There you are, you know?

Amanda

Yeah, I mean, I know this feeling. I think even, you know, for me, despite working for all of these years in fashion, I never really felt like I got to wear what I wanted to wear. I wore what I thought I was supposed to wear. Because that was what was on trend, or would make me look like I was good at my job or make me stand out. But not too much like that kind of thing. What was flattering, all of that bullshit. And when I lost my job, at the beginning of the pandemic, it was suddenly like, Wait, you’re telling me I can wear whatever I want. Anytime and not feel weird about it. And it was like, I cannot even begin to describe how free and happy and comfortable I felt even though I you know still getting dressed up every day and wearing a dress and you know, like not comfortable like, Oh, I’m wearing sweatpants but like, emotionally comfortable. For the first time in my entire life. That’s the power of what you wear. That’s the power of what you wear.

Maggie

Yes. I don’t know if you know this about me. Some listeners may be aware of this but I I fixated on this like favorite outfit from childhood. It was I think it was my preschool school picture. And it was like this. crop tops made out of like a cotton jersey sweatshirt type of material that had little biker shorts with a little peplum ruffle. And it was covered in like these neon puff paint splatters, right? It was rockin. And no, I would not wear that exact same thing today. But I remember how I felt in that outfit. I remember picking it out that day. And I ended up fake. One of one of the coolest things I’ve ever done for myself style wise was to consult with a designer and have her reimagine that outfit for like me as I am today fully owning and embracing my personal style. And she she Han paint splattered this sweatshirt fabric and there’s a little sweetheart detail. And it’s a crop crop sweatshirt and matching joggers. And I put it on an awkward like, like, I mean, I went out to a public park like the State Park and did a photo shoot by myself. I was like, I don’t care who sees me, I want them to, like, have you ever like you don’t even know how good this feels right now. It was just it was incredible. It was like capturing that essence and joy and just like feeling myself before the weight of other people’s expectations setting and just like reclaiming that, you know, in into adulthood, like in that context was super, super powerful.

Amanda

Yeah, I mean, I can’t believe it, I’m like tearing up thinking about it. Because I know that feeling. And it is it is life changing. And once again, when people are like, Oh, clothes are stupid, or if you care about clothes, you’re shallow, or you know, I don’t know, somehow inferior as a person. The reality is that clothes do have a major impact on how we feel in the day to day and and those of us who are really, really into expressing ourselves through a personal style, I would say that, like, every day that we get up and get dressed, we’re making decisions about who we want to be that day. And cannot understate like the power of that and how like and how your day goes, you know, I, I am sad that that has been ruined by just just like steady flow of meaningless clothing. It’s like we’re going full circle back to the lost art of clothing copy. Because there’s so much of it. And we’re not supposed to be connected to it for very long, because if we are, then we won’t buy more. And so I feel like we’re being robbed of that magic of that power. Because a lot of the clothes aren’t going to stand up to many wears. They’re not going to fit us well and so they’re going to make us out already feel less than we are. And in that case probably lead us to buy more stuff to feel better. And I can’t help. I mean, you and I talked about Planned Obsolescence a little bit, when the first time we talked. And I feel like I mean, planned obsolescence is like one thing’s not lasting intentionally, like literally not lasting intentionally, like built to break like an iPhone. But it’s also this psychological obsolescence where you’re gonna move on from something pretty fast to the next thing, right. And it’s, that’s, that’s where we are with closed because they, so many of them that are out there aren’t going to make us feel great. We’re not going to feel bad wearing at once and replacing it with something else. And we’re not feeling great. And we don’t get to have that feeling that you have, when you put on your pants splatter outfit. We don’t get to have that feeling from anything we buy. We just keep buying more until we find it. And we might never. And I think that’s, that’s part of that because all of us had that outfit. When we were a kid for me. I had these electric blue jeans. And I had a sweatshirt that had a teddy bear on it. It said bear in the USA. And I used to, I used to these are like pretty like skinny jeans, I would wear all these socks layered over my jeans for colors that would match back to my sweatshirt. And I had a fancy belt. And I would wear a hat with it. And it was like it was I put that on. And I was like this is gonna be the best day of school this week. You know, and we are robbed of that in the fast fashion era.

Maggie

Yeah, you know, you’ve mentioned trends a couple of times, and we didn’t, we didn’t talk about this when we were comparing fashion and style, but trends like that. That whole concept is something that I reject entirely, you know, and this is this ties in to sustainability, I guess in a broader context, like, you might change your mind over time. You know, we all kind of go through Yeah, yeah, yeah, we go through phases, let’s say, especially in, you know, childhood development and into adulthood. But also like, do you ever really grow bored with something? Or is it like external influences, saying, what you have isn’t good enough? Here’s something better, faster, shiny, more efficient, you know, whatever on sale? Like, I, I always challenge the client to start with what they own. Right? What are your favorite pieces? When I talk about building a capsule wardrobe? It’s not for I mean, it can be for a season or specific mood or like, vacation destination. But I want to challenge you to create a collection of all of your favorite only your favorite things. Right? What would that be like? If everything that you’ve put on every single day, just like made you feel like a total badass, right? Yeah,

Amanda

in fact, that happened. That is a real thing. That is a real thing. I don’t leave the house that often anymore, because I don’t have to. I work from home a lot. And I still like put on something that makes me feel pretty good, like down to work and comfortable and like, good. But when I’m leaving to go somewhere, I get like a solo dressed up every time and I have this like, small assortment of like my 100% favorite outfits that I wear over and over again every week when I like go on a trip or go to the grocery store or go out to dinner or whatever. And yes, like that is the best. Anyone who hasn’t experienced that like you need to call Maggie right now. And help because it is like a present you give yourself

Maggie

it it’s amazing. Yeah. You know, we’ve we’ve talked about standards and rules and all that like this notion of rewiring something or being like seen and the same thing. When we were young. It was like taboo, you know, you don’t want to don’t want to go to prom and encounter someone who has

Amanda

oh my god, it’s like that fear. I have talked about this with other people. It is a fear that is like drilled into you. Like one of the worst moments of your life is going to be if someone else wears the same prom dress as you are you kidding me? Real really thanks movies.

Maggie

I am you know, I I’m of the mind. Like I’ve said this to clients. Like if you weren’t aware of fucking prom dress to the grocery store. I want to like empower you to do that. I want to cheer you on like, do that. Why why not? Right. There are no rules here. Yeah, wear a ball gown to the post office. Who cares? You know, say It makes you feel amazing. Lean into that.

Amanda

Absolutely, absolutely. Do what makes you feel good. Like, listen, life is hard, right? It gets, it kind of never stops being hard in one way or another. And there is so I mean, we live in a really scary time. In a really scary world right now. Like, give yourself some joy by wearing what you love, and not what other people told you. You could or could not wear. Yeah, it’s like that simple.

Maggie

It’s simple. I will say, too, it takes some work, right? Because we’re not accustomed to feeling like there are endless options available, right. So the work comes in the unlearning and unpacking. But once you’re free of that, once you really acknowledge and give yourself permission, there’s I mean, there’s nothing stopping you. And it is so powerful. It is, like an unbelievable joy to witness someone experiencing these feelings in their clothes and this power and just like feeling authentic, you know, they made those choices. They feel themselves, you know, it’s a game changer. It is something so small, like when you’re looking at the grand scheme of things, it is a complex time to be in the world. But you know, it’s worth it. It’s, it’s a form of self care. Right. So advocacy is all the things.

Amanda

Yeah, absolutely. Style is all of these things. Big fashion is none of them. That’s right. Well, Maggie, I had such an awesome time talking to you today. And I’m just gonna go ahead and tell everyone that you’re going to come back for Halloween.

Maggie

Oh, my favorite,

Amanda

most important holiday. Okay.

Maggie

Oh my god. Thank you. I’m so freaking excited about that.

Amanda

Me. Me too. Me too. Um, do you have for this conversation? Any final words of wisdom thoughts, the thing you want everybody to think about when they’re done listening to this? Or are you like, No, I said at all. That’s fine, too.

Maggie

I think I would just emphasize, kind of reemphasize and double down on what we’ve covered, which is, like I know, people who are listening right now might feel like this is, you know, style is not accessible to them, or they don’t have any concept of what their personal style is right? Or maybe they feel like, I’m not really sure if that’s worth exploring, like, do it. Just do it? Take a cherubs right. I’m here as a resource. I would love to support you. It’s not about me, right? I want you to do this for you. I want everyone of all like I said, all body types, all gender expressions, any profession, whoever you are, whatever your background, I want you to have this experience to be able to experience joy in or close and it’s absolutely possible. So give yourself permission, take a chance and see what happens. I don’t think you’ll regret it.

Amanda

Yes, I agree. I agree. Make yourself a mood board. Get outside and get out of your body. Get out of yourself and look at things that you like and think about putting yourself into them. You know, like yes, the rules delete the rules from your brain.

Maggie

Exactly.

Amanda

Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Maggie.

Maggie

Thank you, Amanda. I really appreciate this opportunity. And I am so excited about Halloween.

Thank you again to Maggie for taking the time to talk to me. I had such an incredible time! Maggie WILL be back for our second annual “Clotheshorse Saves Halloween” episode…where we will want to hear from you about your favorite costumes created from stuff you already own (more details on that coming soon). In the mean time, please give Maggie a follow on Instagram where you’ll find her as @greenstylemags. And please check out her incredible blog, at maggiegreenstyle.com, where she explores wardrobe trauma (I’ll share that link in the show notes), what to wear to the gynecologist, and what she has learned from “ 25+ years of violating dress codes.”

There’s just one last thing I want to cover before I end this episode.

Last week, was my birthday (and yes, I did get Covid) but between my birthday and my symptoms of Covid, Dustin and I drove down to the Gulf of Mexico and spent the weekend camping in our RV near the beach. It was so fun! We rode our bikes around town, I saw lots of great birds (I cannot recommend the Merlin app enough if you’re into birds), we laughed so many times until we were crying. It was great. But on the way down to the Gulf, we stopped in a town called Lockhart so Dustin could do a quick work Zoom meeting. We found a cafe there, Dustin ran back to the corner table to jump into his meeting, and I ordered some coffee for us.

There were two women there having a conversation that was unfortunately as loud as it was cruel and bigoted. I won’t repeat what they were saying, but it was super transphobic. And one of their targets was nonbinary people, because it was just something that they could not understand or respect.

I have turned that moment over and over in my brain for the past week or so, wishing that I could travel back in time and say something to them. Because it made me sick . It made me scared. It made me so, so sad and hopeless. Instead, I just gave them a hard look (I’m unsure if they noticed) and hid back in the corner with Dustin.

I never thought of myself as a brave person until I started working on Clotheshorse. If anything, I wanted to attract as little attention as possible, because that felt safer. But over the past 2+ years, I’ve wrangled with trolls and mean influencers, bad comments and DMs, you name it. I’ve had really intense conversations both here on the podcast and on Instagram that I would have never felt empowered to have in the past. And I have realized that I am a brave person. I am a brave person with a tiny bit of a platform that does have an impact on the way others think about things. I like to think that I have changed some minds out there, or at the very least, helped others realize how brave and powerful THEY are!

And so I think it’s important that I speak up when I can about things that are important to me. That I share my truest self whenever I can, because it has impact on others.

I have silently struggled with my gender–this idea of being a “woman,” a “girl,” a “lady” for my entire life. I can see that for those who know me IRL, that may be surprising because I’m always wearing a dress, I have super long hair, I love Hello Kitty and pink…all of these cliche trappings of “femininity.” But it’s important to say that taste is not gendered. Aesthetics are personal choices that should not be tied to a gender binary.

I always knew that I wasn’t a man. But I felt strange as a woman, too…even after dating people of all genders, of having a child of my own, being a woman always felt foreign. Like my brain didn’t agree, the shape of my mind didn’t fit into this woman’s body. But I would argue with myself about it…like “well, you must be a woman because you hate wearing pants.” As if pants

are the true signifier of gender!

Five or six years ago, around the time Dustin and I got married, I was really, really thinking about this on a daily basis. And maybe that was because my relationship didn’t feel gendered in the way every other relationship I’ve had has felt. It was around that time that I made the very silent decision that I would no longer force myself to feel tied to any gender identity, or at least no binary gender identity.

I’m a people pleaser, so it felt like too much to ask to share this decision with others. Like somehow changing up the pronouns they used with me would be too much work for them? I know, nonsense! But that’s my nature. Yes, I’m working on it.

This year, I was empowered by a lot of people in my life–including my nonbinary child, Dylan–to finally ease into slowly shifting those in my life to start using she/they pronouns with me. It’s in my Slack profile at work. I get introduced at professional events with those pronouns. And you know what? It makes me feel like my true self for the first time ever. Truly comfortable in my skin. I changed the Clotheshorse IG profile a few months ago to she/they pronouns. I don’t know if I’ll ever make the full transition to they/them only…mostly because there is something comfortable and familiar about keeping she in the mix, like a childhood nickname or something.

Anyway, I felt like was something to share with all of you, because maybe some of you are feeling the same way. Or you noticed my pronouns in my IG profile. Or maybe there is someone else in your life who is experiencing the same feelings as me. I would never have shared this 2 or 3 years ago. There’s no way I would have done this at my last job. But I feel brave now, which is an incredibly delicious state of being. Thanks for giving me the chance to feel this way.