Episode 140: The Future Is A Place We Invent, with Katya of No Kill Magazine

Welcome to Clotheshorse, the podcast that wants you all to know that this week marks one year since Hutch decided to move in with Dustin and me. Hutch is a cat btw. A humongous white fluffy cat who loves a big vet bill.

I’m our host Amanda and this is episode 140. Today’s special guest–well, I am super excited about this guest…is Katya, founder and editor of No Kill, “No Kill Magazine is about culture with a conscience and fashion for a future. We believe in role models as models and ending the elevation of empty celebrity. ” I have been a major fan of No Kill for quite some time and I’m just so happy to have a chance to get to know Katya. We are going to discuss why so many people will perform all sorts of mental acrobatics to explain why they need fast fashion. We’ll talk about how retail and warehouse workers are the domestic evidence of how the fashion and retail industries regard all of the workers who are responsible for their profits. We’ll talk about how pissed (for lack of a better term) we are about the CFDA partnering with Amazon. And Katya will share all of the reasons she is feeling optimistic about the future.

This conversation is a long boi and I couldn’t find a place where it made sense to cut it into a two-parter, so you won’t be getting an introductory segment from me today. But before we jump into the conversation, I want to talk about something important to me: supporting and fostering small businesses.

If you’ve been hanging out around here long enough, then you know that I firmly believe that small business is the future. In fact, the future DEPENDS on smaller, more ethical businesses. Yes, not every small business is owned by a saint. Some owners are terrible bosses, sell bad product, or just DGAF about their communities. And if they are bad, skip them! But even the worst small businesses have significantly smaller impact than the big baddies like Amazon or some of my past employers! And the fact is, most small businesses are run by people you know and they are just trying to make a living while doing the best job they can.

No matter how you feel about the winter holidays, it is an important time of year for small businesses. Last year I started a few traditions around here for the “holiday shopping season.” I featured audio essays in each episode of the podcast in November and December. Clotheshorse has grown a lot since then and our community wants to support small businesses in any way possible. So this can be some great exposure (for free) to a bunch of rad people!

Okay, so what is an audio essay?

It’s a recording you make–using either your phone or your computer. You email it to me at [email protected], and I edit it and mix it, and add it to an episode.

It’s not an ad…it’s your story and feelings about owning a small business, including:

What motivated you to start a small business?

Why it’s important to you, what you do, and why you do it.

What have you learned?

And of course, I want you to include information about your business and where listeners can find you.

Write out what you want to say before you record it. Try to fit it into 5 minutes or less.

It’s okay if you make a mistake while recording, just say that part again and keep going. I’ll edit out the mistake!

Record in a quiet room away from fans, air conditioners, bus stops, and howling hound dogs.

Be sure to double check your recording before sending. Yes, I have received fully silent recordings.

When you email it to me, include your name, pronouns, and IG handle.

The deadline for this project is November 1st and it is a first come/first served situation.

So that’s the audio essays…but that wasn’t enough for me. Every week in November I will be creating Reels and carousels of my favorite small businesses. I will be assembling highlights on my profile by gift category. And I want to host weekly IG Live panel convos with small businesses in our community. Interested in getting involved in those Lives? EMAIL ME at [email protected]. DO NOT DM ME on Instagram. My life is a whirling dervish of projects, so I like to have all of my communication in one place: email. This ensures that nothing falls through the cracks and it mitigates my anxiety so much

If you’re listening to this and wondering how YOU can support small businesses, well number one, you can give them your money, via purchases, gift cards, etc.

But beyond money…there are a lot of things you can do!

Recommend your favorite small businesses to friends.

Like, save, and share IG posts from your favorite makers, sellers, and small brands. Bonus points for commenting on posts and tagging friends!

When friends/family ask you for your gift list, include items or gift certificates from small businesses.

Write positive reviews for businesses you have already shopped.

We get to build the future we want. And one piece of that puzzle involves breaking away from big, unethical companies and shopping locally and small. What if we saw Amazon go out of business in our lifetimes? Just saying!

Okay, we’re definitely going to be talking about Amazon in today’s conversation, so let’s jump right in. Let’s meet Katya!

Amanda

Why don’t you get us started by introducing yourself to everyone.

Katya

My name is Katya. And I’m the editor and founder of no kill magazine. And that’s a website that takes sort of the traditional fashion lifestyle website idea, and kind of turns it on its head, because we prioritize people on the planet. And what I mean by that is we look for sustainable fashion, you know, ethical fashion, clean beauty, and more like role models than celebrities.

Amanda

I mean, I love that. So I was so excited when you reached out to me, because I’ve been a big fan of no kill. And I think, I don’t know, it’s like, I get why fashion is so glamorous and appealing to all of us because it is it’s such a valuable art form and creative expression. But I think over the years, many years, I guess, like decades, it’s it’s become this other thing that lacks the art, but certainly has a lot of artifice. And so I like I like their refreshing. I know, the real take on it. You

Katya

mentioned sort of like the art of fashion. And that’s one of the things that I’m hoping that no kill still retains. Because when I started it, I was looking around, or actually, when I first kind of learned about sustainable fashion and why that’s important. I would look at the websites and there was nothing that I felt like resonated with me, it all felt very mommy and beige, and green, and you could like fashion, or you could like sustainability. But it kind of felt like if you liked sustainability, you needed to sort of almost consider yourself above fashion in a way that I just completely disagree with.

Amanda

When I began making clothes horse, I looked out at the sort of landscape of other people who were talking about this creating content around it. And it was really hard for me to see where I fit into that because I wasn’t beige, right? I don’t wear a lot of like hemp clothing, I actually wear a lot of really bright, like, I have a very bold style, I’ll just say that. And I’ve always loved the creativity, the creative expression that fashion gives us I just hated everything else about it. And I felt like a lot of the content out there around sustainable fashion was very focused on like superiority and shaming other people. And it had the same sort of like shopping focused exclusivity classist elements of mainstream fashion. So like, it just, it was hard for me to see how people who are just like creative and care about things fit into it, you know? Yes. So I’m excited. I’m always excited to see how much this world has expanded over the past few years. In a weird way. I think the pandemic gave more and more people a chance to like think about these things, and be activated by them and show that this is a very diverse community. This movement is more than just like really thin white yoga moms, right.

Katya

I know how to get there like Lululemon. So I don’t know if that’s how you say it. Okay, I’m like, lemme, but you know, their fancy yoga mat that’s made out of this biodegradable, blah, blah, blah. I’m like, that’s, that’s not. That’s not it. I mean, that’s not only it so. So yeah. So when I started, no kill I was. I had wanted to do something in the sustainability space for a little while. Ever since really, in 2015, when I saw the true cost, which, you know, most of your listeners probably know that documentary about Rana Plaza, and then you kind of have that, like, come to Jesus moment with fashion like, Oh my God, I need to change my ways. And I was happened to be also working for a sustainable fashion startup at the time. And so I was just kind of really learning so much that I didn’t know and so I when I decided, hey, I really want to make something I was like, but I want it to appeal to people who love fashion first. Not poor looking to be sustainable first, because those are the people whose minds we need to shift really, I mean, read my my mission is to fundamentally change the way we shop, which is huge. And I’m not the only one who will be doing it. Just me I’ll just you

Amanda

you’re it’s all on you let me know when you’re done.

Katya

Yeah, so I thought like, well, I need to show people you know, different options that are, you know, more affordable or different ways to do things or styling more. Looking at the big picture. Are and yes, sometimes say why, you know, go deep dive into like, why we need to do it. But more than that, to kind of have sort of like the celebratory place of look at all the amazing people who are doing amazing things. And let’s be excited about it. One of the things that I tell our small army of interns because this runs on a small army of interns getting college credit, not paid, but they do get college credit and okay, and significant mentoring. I know there’s lots of issues about not being paid, but I am not Conde Nast, I do not have a Conde Nast budget, I have the budget.

Amanda

I hear you, I hear you. I mean, I would love an intern to you’re inspiring me.

Katya

So the interns love interning with us, or at least they tell me that because that’s what 111 says when they’re an intern, but I tell them, one of my favorite things that I say is, the future is a place we invent. I love that. I love it too. And I can’t take credit for it. I’m sure I saw it on Instagram somewhere, but But it’s proactive, and it’s not. It’s not, um, despairing or depressed. And, and I think we as like, as a society, and you know, people in general, we always think, you know, things are happening like to us like, and it’s true, the pandemic happened to us, climate change is happening to us, you know, that things are happening to us, but we have to envision the future with ourselves as like active participants. And so I think, if you approach you know, anything like that, but when I, you know, when I tried to like what, what are articles we want to be writing for no kill? I try to think of it from that, like, Well, how do I want the future to be oh, I want people to be, you know, wearing regenerative fashion? Well, first, they have to know what the hell it is. And they have to know where to find it. So let’s, let’s give them that. Let’s explain why that’s a cool thing. You know, so that’s, that’s how I think of it.

Amanda

Yeah, no, I love that. I think showing people a future that they’re part of is really important. And I think that’s why it’s important for us to expand the scope of what it looks like to live a sustainable lifestyle, right? Because for so long, what we think of as the so called sustainable lifestyle, right has been really dictated by brands that are selling us stuff, often to a very specific group of people in a very specific aesthetic, right? And then like, the media that surrounds it, but it’s always it’s like the same color palettes, it’s the same. Often these clothes are not like, well sized, if you want my honest opinion, as a person who works in this industry, like the sizing is off. The sizing is not inclusive, the pricing is out of range for a lot of people. Aesthetically, it’s very narrow. So if you don’t see yourself as a person who wants to wear like, a beige hump tunic, then you are not part of it. Right? What’s your problem? Yeah, exactly, exactly. And like, like I said, when I started I making clothes horse, I was sort of like, I’m really good at self gaslighting. I’m like, my own worst enemy in some ways. And I thought, like, how can I possibly fit into this? How could anybody take me seriously when I don’t even have one beige HAMP article of clothing in my closet? And because I don’t I’m not like an upper class yoga mom, you know, and I like? And then I said, No, but like, you know, I had to like, sit down and talk myself off the ledge because I’m also, in addition to being really good at gaslighting myself, I’m also really good at giving myself a pep talk. So balance is like, right, right. Right, exactly. So it’s like Amanda, like, more people need to be involved and know about these things and make these changes and fight for these changes than just this like select group of like, you know, incredibly privileged, very specific people. Right. And I just was like, We need to expand, who’s out there because I think so far the I mean, we’ve seen a lot of change of this the past few years. But you know, in the early days of the pandemic, when I would look out there and see who was involved in the sustainability, seeing the slow fashion movement, it was primarily people with a lot of money, who had the privilege to invest in that. And what it was doing was othering everyone else, and how could you possibly be like an eco conscious person if you aren’t also drinking green juice and great sweet greens, you know, like

Katya

it being vegan and, and right and Kondo? It was that Marie

Amanda

Kondo Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was like you have to be minimalist, but in this really expensive way, and you need to be really health conscious in a really expensive way. And ultimately, that is just not not going to work. That is like, we’re never going to see any change at all. So I’m excited about things like no kill, that are out there showing this other side of it, that actually shows more people. You know, like, we all have a place in this

Katya

right, and I’m talking about showing more people like one thing that we’re starting is something called Fashion love story, where we’re going to profile Well, multiple people, but people portraits of people wearing something that they own, that there’s a story behind that they really love. And then probably been a little profile of the person. And we’re going to actually do this in trio. So we’re gonna do like three climate activists, we’re going to do three fashion designers that are based in New York City, women who haven’t sold out to bigger companies that are like made in New York. So in a sense, and two of them I know already, it’s gonna be Yoli Tang and Cynthia Rowley. And so if we look at someone like Cynthia Rowley, you could be like, Oh, Katya, how do you think she’s sustainable? Because she uses synthetic fabrics. And, and, you know, but on the flip side, she does small production, she makes it in New York, so there’s not the ethical, factory implications. And, and she’s an independent, like woman who’s created her own business and, and so I wanted to be sure that there’s a wide way we can, like define this. In a way, for me, it’s almost just simply like anti-corporate When things are too big. Like, when Jeff Bezos owns you, or LVMH owns you? It’s yeah, you know, then you’re part of this huge machine where things are outsourced, when you’re when you when your factories when you don’t even know who owns your factories, because you’re outsourced it. So you’re not responsible to those people. For me, that’s problematic. That’s the whole. So it’s sort of big, and from having no kill and constantly doing research. My idea of what it means to be sustainable is, is constantly like broadening and shifting. And, you know, I’m learning constantly, so I don’t I don’t try to approach either, like, this is the only answer, which is also what I think early sustainable fashion, the mommy yoga sites are like, this, this, these are the answers for you. And, and we try to be like, these are things we found that are working, but you know, what, kind of like Buddhism, like, try it yourself? Does this resonate with you or not, you know, right, because

Amanda

there’s so many ways, different ways to do this. And I do think, you know, once again, the sustainable fashion community for so long has been really whether they’ve realized or not really being dictated by brands, who it is in their best interest as brands, you know, that our companies selling things to tell you that their path is the right path, the true path and the only path. But, you know, this is this is more complicated than this. And this is personal, and it’s about finding what works for you, RIGHT?

That’s a great transition to something you and I talked about at length when we were preparing for this that I actually have been thinking about so much all week, which are these like sort of mental gymnastics that so many consumers do that allow them to put their own happiness and the consumption of fast fashion over human rights and environmental justice. Like if you ask the average person, hey, what’s more important you having access to a plethora of cheap trendy clothes? Or the human rights of the people who made your your clothes? Of course, they’re gonna say, it’s the human rights of the people who made the clothes, right, like no one’s no one’s a monster, right? No one is out there. Like, wait, like rubbing their hands together like a villain when they place that she and Hall order, right? Like it’s that’s not how it’s going down. There’s so many gray areas, everything is so complicated, right? But nonetheless, people are good. And yet, they still are like, Well, I do need something new for this wedding. Or I do need new fall clothes or like, how do we help people get over that hurdle? I know it’s you know, this is like something I’m thinking about every day. There’s no easy answer, right?

Katya

Yeah, it’s so tough. I’m sure you’re familiar with the remake organization? Yes, yeah. So when I used to Baron Blatt started that what she first started doing was taking young fashion designers from like Parsons are fit. And basically these field trips to say like Vietnam to a factory to meet the, their peers on the other side, because a lot of those factory workers are 1819 20 year old, you know, women. And the idea was putting a face like, like a humanity behind it. So there’s something about that piece. Because so much of our problem with that is the fact that, you know, up until this is amazing to think about, I think it was somewhere in like the late 80s, early 90s, that the majority of our things started being made, offshore, like elsewhere, like in the 60s 70s. Most things like were made in America that we bought here. And it’s staggering to think about that now because that’s so not the norm. And I think when you’re you know, when it’s somebody who lives you know, down the road or even in the next city from you that that factory, you know, you would be supporting those people. And so therefore, things could cost more. But I don’t think this is completely answering the question. I’m kind of like, kind of spreading out, but yeah, how it’ll make people care. It’s it’s yeah, that’s such a huge question, Amanda. I don’t know.

Amanda

I don’t know, either that’s asking you. I mean, I have a few thoughts there because I have spent so much time thinking about it. Oh, tell me, you know, okay. Okay, for one, we need to dispel this notion that is, quote, things are different over there. Right? Or people have different priorities over there over, it’s always over there. It’s a distance, right? It’s the other ring. And I think that, you know, I don’t know how we undo that like, easily, but that’s just fundamentally not true. People are people, no matter where they live, or what they do, and they have the same insecurities, the same things that make them happy. The same dreams, you know, like, yes, we’re all special, unique people. But we’re all people is though, is the point like people overseas who saw your clothing over there? Aren’t these like, automatons who just sew all day and have no nothing else going on? Right? And they think that’s one thing I’m constantly thinking about, like, how do we pull back that curtain more and more for other people? The other thing that is a little bit more, as a lot closer to home actually, is you can see the impacts of fast fashion here in the United States. Yes, I would. Have you ever worked retail because I sure have. And like retail workers are the domestic evidence of how these this industry treats humans. And surely we all have known someone at some point who has worked in a store if we have not ourselves and I have seen as fast fashion grew and clothes became cheaper and faster. And there’s more of them. At the same time, retail workers were paid less and less lost access to benefits by being forced to just always be scheduled under full time hours, so that no one was required to give them health insurance and holidays and pay time off all of that stuff. Um, and these are people who work under really difficult circumstances and cannot make a living off of what they do.

Katya

Right. That’s similar to the Amazon workers.

Amanda

Yeah, same another great example. Yeah, I’ve

Katya

read about that. Like, they work in these, you know, these warehouses. Yes, thank you. They work in warehouses that are like a few football fields big and they can’t have their cell phone with them, they have to check like they’re, like, treated like worse than children. Yeah, like, you have to leave it in the front. And so then if you have to make an emergency call in your 10 minute break, you have to jog to the front to get your phone. I mean, it’s, it’s ridiculous. And the turnover super high. So, you know, they’re trying to unionize, I think some places they’ve almost started unionizing. And it’s funny, I think unions need to come back. But that’s slightly off topic,

Amanda

there was a leak of an internal memo from Amazon that came out earlier this year. That was basically like, where we’re afraid that we’re running out of bodies to hire, because the turnover is so high, like we don’t know what to do. And I see a similar thing happening in retail right now to where, you know, I mean, and fast food, right? Like, you know, that’s why a lot of these businesses are unlimited hours, the services like pretty bad. And it’s because people are like, I don’t want to do it anymore. Or I already did it. And it was terrible. Like, I will tell you that I worked retail for about five years. And I I have like internalized trauma from it, but I can’t even talk about, like has ruined going to a store shopping for me, you know, and I I see all with the way Amazon workers are treated, the way retail workers are treated, denied benefits, consistent wages, and hours, all of that stuff. It’s really a function of this attitude of selling us as much shit as possible, as often as possible, at the lowest price, right? It’s all connected. And it’s easy for people to other the people who made their stuff because often it’s not made here anymore, but the people who deliver your stuff who sell you that stuff who fold the things after you try it on there right here in front of you, right? And that’s why if you if you say like Sorry, but like people are really far away, I can’t wrap my brain around it, like go to the mall right now.

Katya

Right? Exactly.

Amanda

So I don’t know, that’s like one of the big challenges that I am thinking about a lot, which is how we get more people to like, I don’t know, it’s like, the narrative is either you deny yourself any joy in life, to protect others in the planet, or you live a happy life and you say fuck it to all of that stuff. And I it’s, I know that humans are really Built for black and white thinking that we need to, like, untangle that and undo that belief.

Katya

Oh, completely. Yeah, that’s crazy. And that’s in its marketing right there. It’s just marketing. And it’s the overproduction. I mean, the fast fashion is a problem. But the bigger problem is simply overproduction. Yeah, I did an article recently on Oak Hill about basically about that, because part of it is that it allows regular retailers to kind of avoid scrutiny, because they’re like, Oh, look at the bad fast fashion. And so just for fun, I went to Nordstrom website, and I looked up men’s T shirts, and there were 15,000 over 15,000 results. And what I know, like, that’s Nordstrom, that’s like, that’s not, that’s not, that’s just crazy. Who, who could even begin to make a decision about which of

Amanda

that many I mean, honestly, as soon as you said t shirts, I knew it was gonna get bad because T shirts are one of those things that overwhelm me with it’s like the basically the illusion of choice, right? Because ultimately, the end of the day, it’s a t shirt, but even, you know, working as a buyer in the past and managing that category specifically. I was like, why do we have so many T shirts? They’re not all the same?

Katya

Yeah, exactly. And this is, and when I was trying to talk to my cousin, who, who is just like, I love her, but in terms of awareness, she’s just like, totally normal. So she doesn’t she shops, some fast fashion, she shops, some regular fashion, she tries to recycle some time, you know, she’s just basic American, no judgment with that, just giving you her awareness level. And so I was trying to explain to her, you know, my, my problems with fast fashion. And I said it like this, I said, Have you ever stopped to think about your going into Target, or Tarjay, if you’re fancy. And you’re looking at like these racks of clothes and targets, not like a magnet superstore. But it’s big enough. And this idea that, you know, someone’s that, hey, let’s just make all these clothes, let’s not see if anybody needs them, we’re gonna make a ton of things. And we’re gonna just put them on these racks. And we’re gonna put them in these buildings. And we’re gonna get people to come and convince them that they need them. Like, it’s actually crazy. It’s actually crazy. When you think of it like that, like, like, this was a good idea.

Amanda

It is interesting. It’s like clothing is an image. I mean, there are other categories like this. But clothing is an amazing example of like, stuff is being made not to fulfill a need, but to make money. Like, unfortunately, that is what it is, yes, there are people who need clothes, we all need clothes, or we will, you know, succumb to sunburn and exposure and all that stuff. Fine. But, but like, we don’t need all those clothes all the time. And as a person who’s worked as a buyer in this industry, I want to assure you that there has never been a moment in any meeting that I’ve had throughout my career where someone said, Well, what do people need? Ever? It was like, what do we need to make to hit our sales plan? And our sales plan is designed to ensure that we hit a certain profit level. And that profit level is there to ensure that we pay out shareholders and keep our stock price high. It was never like, what is it that people really need right now? Like, I think about the early days of my career, especially where we were starting to see this shift, where people who no longer would like I remember this vaguely as a kid where like, my grandma would take me shopping, you know, in the middle of summer for a winter coat, and snow boots, and like back to school clothes that I wasn’t going to wear for months, right? Like that’s how it used to work. You just went out and got the stuff you needed for the year. And then that was it, right? Like you weren’t idly shopping all the time. And even though I was started my career with a big fast fashion retailer whose audience whose customer base was like teens and 20s we still were delivering product that way. So we would like deliver sandals and shorts and bathing suits in December, because it was like, well, people are going to stock up and then we start we start to see I mean like No shit, right? People are not people have money to go out and stock up for the year. And that’s not how people shop anymore. Right? It’s like, it’s like when they need it. They want it right. And we it was like this huge like business lesson that took years to fall into place that like oh no, we shouldn’t deliver sandals in December or mins in August because no one wants them yet. It took like years. So funny years for the industry to catch up on that, like people now are more like we’re kind of like an on demand generation where we just like want it when we want it right. And there are many services out there that will ensure that that happens, and that we no longer are about like, oh, we get it, then because that’s when we’re supposed to get it. But then we wait, we hold on to it. And we don’t use it for months. And I think, you know, part of that is like the on demand culture. But it’s also like none of us has like, the money in the bank to just go out and stock up for the year. That’s just like, not what we need. We buy things when we can afford them. And that’s when we need them. Right. Right. And so this whole industry is not about when people need it at all, or what they need. It’s about, like, here’s the stuff we got to sell, right. And I think like going to a target is a great example of that. Like, there’s so much clothing in there. And there are influencers, who just share target clothes all day, every day. Let’s face it, and I can see your style like

Katya

you. I mean, I, I don’t go to Target much simply I think because I live in Brooklyn, there’s not convenient targets. But you know, I go visit my family. And I just like need to go out the house like Oh, go to Target. Like, literally, that’s like, you can do that. And I could definitely go there and find things I need. And I’ll put that in quotations. Because if I didn’t walk into that target, I wouldn’t have seen that thing I need. But it’ll be it’ll be priced at a point where I’m like, oh, yeah, I think I need like, oh, I need this weather clothing or a moisturizer. You know, Target has everything. So yeah, it’s, it’s crazy like that. I remember when I first learned that a country. And I feel like I was old when I learned this. I didn’t I don’t know how like college age at least. But that country’s health is, like judged by the GDP is like, what does GDP mean? They’re like, gross domestic product. But what does that mean? They’re like how much you sell. I’m like, wait, a country is considered good by how much it sells. And it seems really naive. But I was like, shocked with that. I felt like, What about like the health of the people or, I mean, I honestly had this naive thought, like, we were judged by things better than just how much we sell.

Amanda

It’s true. It’s like, it’s not like, oh, how long people live? Or how happy they are? Or how educated they are. Now it’s about like how much stuff we buy, right? I mean, I definitely have gone down many rabbit holes about how, basically since the 80s. Especially, I mean, also since World War Two, but the abs like they really hit the pedal on the gas, put the foot on the gas pedal, there we go. With ensuring that we were all workers and consumers first and anything else second, you know. And like that is ultimately where we are like We exist to shop and work. I mean, I know anyone who’s listening to this is like, that’s depressing. Don’t say that. And I agree. Right? That is not who we are right? But unfortunately, that is how your economy functions, how our nation’s function how exact worldview is right now. And we need to change that. And I think that sometimes, we don’t realize it, but by saying like, Oh, well, I need, I need a new outfit. I need a bunch of new outfits. It’s a human right, basically, that trumps all over human rights. We might be like playing into that really distorted view of what life is, you know? Yeah, exactly.

Katya

And I want to add one thing that I’ve because I’ve, you know, overconsumption and consuming has been something that I’ve again, self educated since learning about things. And you mentioned the 80s. And I think you’re right, I think part of the reason the 80s, too, is like starting in the 70s, in the 80s. And going forward, credit, credit cards became way more of a thing and way more accessible. I mean, I remember going to college and like high get a free frisbee and water bottle when you get a credit card, and I wouldn’t do credit card debt immediately. Like, oh,

Amanda

I remember this era.

Katya

Yeah. And it’s like, no, yeah, hi, I’m a college kid. I I, you know, I work as a waitress, you know, like, you’re gonna give me credit, you’re gonna give me like, $10,000 credit. Are you crazy? No, they were smart. But not, you know, but so if we couldn’t buy so much beyond what we can actually afford in our bank account, this wouldn’t be happening, but then we wouldn’t have that great GDP. So it’s, it’s, it’s a really wicked cycle that, you know, we get stuck on.

Amanda

Also, in the 80s. The Reagan administration, basically, throughout while stopped funding, Home Economics and industrial art programs in school, instead decided that they wanted to focus on job skills, turning people into workers, and as a pleasant side effect, which I don’t know if this was, I mean, I these people were pretty brilliantly evil. So probably they considered this too. Now we’re like two generations deep into people who don’t know how to cook, or do laundry or itto or repair clothing. You know, guess what that forces us to do consume even more. Right? You know, I my last job I worked with a lot of people who couldn’t cook at all. And so like, for example, my assistant would every day after work, go to sweet greens and buy two meals. One was dinner and one was gonna be lunch for the next day. And that was like par for the course at my office. Like I didn’t know how to cook or fix things. They were throw out clothing because it hadn’t rib. And it wasn’t because they were bad people who don’t care about anyone it was because they don’t know how to write, but I’m sure they’re really great at whatever these other job skills were being thrown out. Exactly.

Katya

It’s learned it’s a learned help helplessness. And yeah, I don’t know if if you’re familiar, you probably are familiar with the right to repair movement that’s happening. Yes. Yes. So I mean, it’s really it. They’re doing it for like things like electronics. And what where I really see it like wow, is like farmers I think are like suing like Deere tractors, because Deere tractors have gotten so computerize that they can’t fix their own tools and insane amount of money. And that’s plan that’s like a plan thing. And so let’s just, again, let’s invent our own future and be you know, where’s that? You know, where’s the tractor? That’s, you can repair yourself, they’re gonna get a lot of orders.

Amanda

But Exactly, exactly, yeah. And like, we’re as consumers, we’re part of that, like, maybe we’re not out there buying tractors, right. But there are other things that we can we can educate ourselves and be sure that when we do need to buy something we’re buying it for from companies that are thinking about this new future. And that sometimes that is going to cost a little bit more money, because guess what, really confused about the value of things?

Katya

Yes, totally. And also, there’s another sort of movement for people to like, learn to get things tailored and altered. So maybe you can’t become the expert. So or, but instead of just trashing something, or, you know, saying I can’t buy this, because it doesn’t fit me perfectly. Take it to, you know, a tailor, or alteration place to prolong his life, and, and also to give someone else work who has that skill?

Amanda

Totally, totally. I agree. I mean, this is our I like to think of this as like our future economy. And it’s different. And like, let’s start it now. So where, where things are made here, where we make things last, where if we can’t repair something ourselves, that’s fine. There’s someone else out there who makes a living repairing it. And it’s all like, Good work, you know? Yeah, exactly. Even something else you and I talked about was this idea that I think really fuels some of the worst, worst companies retailers out there is this idea that convenience is a human right. And that convenience, trumps everything else in our lives, it’s always way more important than anything other aspect of our existence is like this right to convenience. And you said something when we were talking about that, that really stuck with me, you said, inconvenience is baked into the capitalist system, right? And then we like have to buy our way out of it, basically.

Katya

Yeah, exactly. And the pandemic kind of, in a way made it. It made it worse, in a sense that you really had to go online to like, get everything you needed. Well, during the pandemic, I think there were problems because then there were shortages, but I, I feel like there, it’s gotten some people to like, be like, Oh, I’ll never go to like Costco, again, I’ll just order everything to be delivered to me, I’ll order it, you know. And it’s tricky. And I get it, like, I get the impulse of like, you know, oh, Amazon, I can I can be here the next day, but I would so rather support like a local business. And I don’t mean this in a holier than thou way like, I’m not perfect, sometimes I don’t sometimes I’m like, I really need this tomorrow for whatever reason. I do. But you know, for the most part, I try to, you know, first go local. Secondly, if I need to order online, do it by a smaller company. And part of that is we have like a gift guide. Every during the holidays, I’m no kill. And there was a company that has sort of like, I know, some like plant kits for kids. And I found it on Amazon. And I found their website, and I didn’t find it anywhere else. And I emailed the company, and I said, Hey, I really love your kit. I’m only seeing it on Amazon. I really prefer not to put any links to Amazon. But I like it well enough that if that’s the only place you sell it, then, you know, I’ll put it on. And the I will never forget like the owner wrote me back and he was like, thank you so much. Amazon ends up like taking so much of our profit. And we’re like, oh my god, yeah. And we’re in the process of like, getting our own site together. So like if you can wait till like whatever time and just put our site we would so appreciate it and I was like absolutely that it’s a win win, but I don’t sell on Amazon so I don’t know these things. But of course that makes sense. So yeah, I think again, is looking at the bigger picture and the interconnectedness of everyone and our humanity. And, and again, I think, in some ways, well, some ways, like just being the internet or some ways like the pandemic, it’s separated people and just politics that we forget that we’re all like, interconnected. And that that’s messes things up. That’s, that’s a scientific term messes things up.

Amanda

But no, it’s true. I mean, I think it’s nice. I mean, we still there’s still a pandemic going on. But you know, a lot of us are starting to slowly get out there in the world again. And it is reminding me of how much I’ve missed in person interactions with people and how different they are. Which is not to say like, social media is real life, and everybody needs to stop pretending it’s not right, because we learn a lot from social media, we mimic things we see on social media, we meet people on social media, we share information that way, we are assholes to each other and social media, and it hurts our feelings in real life. So like social media is real. But I do think like, it’s two years in our houses alone, really, really changed. A lot of the ways we connect with humanity, and it’s sort of like relearning. But I also think like, the humanity, the the pandemic, and basically not leaving my house for well, more than a year at all, except to run errands, like wrapped in plastic, practically, because I was so fearful, reminded me or taught me that I don’t want everything to just show up at my house that I want to go out there and have the experience of finding it and feeling like I’m making the best decisions because it’s right there in front of me. And so for me, it made buying things online, just like only something that happens when it’s really urgently needed, you know, and it made it even more appealing to go out there and shop local shop small i i few years ago, I was definitely helping a lot of different clients set up Amazon stores. I think that a lot less that is happening now. Because, you know, Amazon, we already know, it’s like bad for its workers, right? It’s really bad for a lot of the small businesses that are selling on that platform, like I don’t know how they make the math work, because I even had like an a client last year who was doing a pretty decent Amazon business and like they were addicted to the money that was coming in. But when you sat down and sort of like reconciled it, they weren’t really making much in the way of profit, because Amazon nickels and dimes, these small businesses and every in every possible regard, it’s ridiculous. Like they get charged to have their stuff there. If it doesn’t hit a certain selling point, they get charged for this and that and like there’s just fees on fees on fees. And I actually, not only do I fear and and know that Amazon is leading people, small businesses into a very financially tenuous situation. I also think it is having this downstream impact where it’s like these brands, these small businesses are handing more and more money over to Amazon each week to do business. And they have to make that up somewhere which is with the people who make the products or the materials. And so people downstream are being paid even less. You know, there’s this like pressure. And like, I think it’s really it seems easy or low hanging fruit to villainize Amazon but I think that people don’t really understand. Amazon is so massive now that is impacting every single person and at least one way even if you were like, Oh, I don’t shop Amazon, I don’t even have a prime membership. I guarantee there are extra trucks driving up and down your street, which are affecting the air quality like it’s it’s it’s everyone has been touched by this right. And it’s not good. It’s not like we’re being touched in a good way you know, it’s a bad time.

Katya

But is it is

Amanda

You told me something that it infuriated me disappointed me, filled me with despair, which is that the CFDA is partnering with Amazon?

Katya

Yes, I am. I am so upset about this. So for people who don’t know, CFDA is the Council of Fashion Designers of America and their whole mo there is to help support American fashion and help it grow. And so Amazon has wanted to get into high fashion forever. They’ve tried numerous times, it almost became a joke, because, I mean, think about it, I can’t imagine if I’m going to put down $500 on up to like, several 1000 on something that I’m going to want to order it from Amazon, that I’m not going to want to go to the store and get that treatment and be treated so nicely and have it tried on and have the salesperson tell me I look amazing. Like, Shouldn’t that be part of that whole price that I’m

Amanda

Yes, guess I agree. I don’t need it to come to my house, on try it on and then deal with the returning it. Yeah, that’s the thing, like, I just don’t get it.

Katya

And also, like, I imagined somebody that they’d be like, oh, here and we have a tailor, let’s let’s pin this perfectly for you now. And we can take it in or we can shorten it for you or, you know, X, Y or Z like, you know, I don’t chop those things. But if I did, that is what I’d want. That’s what I want anyway, but it doesn’t happen. But so this idea that they’re, you know, their new, you know, initiatives are being sponsored by Amazon. And if you go to like their Instagram account, it says straight up on there, like in partnership with Amazon. It just, it makes me so upset. Because if if we want to support American fashion designers, upcoming designers shouldn’t part of what we do be to like, bake in a sense of sustainability and responsibility to you know, your community and your community is like your workers, your community is everything right? You know, that the shoppers and Amazon is like so blatantly could care less. We already know, they don’t care about workers. We know. They know, they have no sustainability initiative, they don’t even pretend to. And so for, you know, for the Council of Fashion Designers of America to be like, Hi, we’re partnering, you know, with Amazon and the thing is, and we had mentioned we were talking Amanda is it’s not like these people don’t have money like I mean it’s not like they don’t like Anna winter has her Met Gala and raises millions for the met Diana Von Furstenberg, Diane, excuse me, if I’m Furstenberg was, was the president of it forever. And she’s married to a billionaire. She might be a billionaire in her own right. You know, Tom Ford is not like on welfare. So it’s like, why do they mean that’s just complete greed? It’s greed on both their parts. I think that like, you know, CFDA like fashion, traditional fashion, I think, is, you know, running scared of, you know, how international things have become how accessible things have become online. I don’t know what they’re, you know, they just want money and Amazon wants, like, the prestige or whatever they think they want of pairing with, you know, this high fashion. And similar to what you were talking about, like the small companies getting nickeled and dimed, you know, that these fancy designers aren’t, you know, again, there’s gonna be disparity how they’re getting treated by Amazon, you know, is not going to be the same because they want those late. Yeah,

Amanda

exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It’s just Yeah, it’s, it’s totally true. It’s, it’s frustrating because I think, you know, people who are listening to this podcast, a lot of the people who are in our social circles in this space, know, unequivocally, that Amazon is bad news and has a lot of really negative impacts on the planet. And its people like, we all know that. But there are plenty many more people out there I might add, who are like, Amazon is so great. They have everything I need, it comes really fast. It’s like infinite choice in terms of like what’s on the site, they and they work with all of these like highly reputable brands, you know, because like more and more, you can find just about any brand that you trust, whether why you trust them is is your own personal choice, but you can find them on Amazon. And then to take it to the next level where like, oh my god, the CFDA is partnering with Amazon like, why Where’s Tim Gunn? Is he like a part of this? You know? And like people love Tim Gunn. So they’re like, oh my god, well, he loves Amazon. One more reason for us to love Amazon or keep shopping there rather than shopping with local businesses or any you know, anywhere else and it’s, it’s It’s very beneficial for Amazon. I’m not really sure how it’s beneficial for CFDA. Unless they’re just getting a big fat check.

Katya

I am not saying yeah, they absolutely must. But yeah,

Amanda

I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s all it is. Because I feel like if they had done this 10 years ago, it would have been very damaging for the CFDA. Like, right to Amazon. Exactly. And it kind of, I guess it’s like on us to make it have that same impact now, exactly. Like, because I’m looking at it now. And I’m like, Oh, my God, that’s disgusting. I hate this. You know, we need to be loud about that, and explain to other people why this is a problem. But like, like I said, the majority of people don’t know that Amazon is a problem, you know, which is shocking to me. Because I feel like it’s I don’t know, I think I spent a lot of time on Reddit. So it’s like very abundantly clear to me. You know, like, it’s interesting, because I just I don’t know how anyone at this point hasn’t heard something bad about Amazon, right? Yeah, I don’t I don’t know. Yeah, I

Katya

don’t know, either. But you’re right. I don’t even go on Reddit. And I know all.

Amanda

I know, I was just assuming that there was getting from, you know, there was a point during their first year, the pandemic, where I, you know, I had lost my job at the beginning. And unemployment benefits were like, I mean, in Pennsylvania, where I was living at the time, the system was like, just collapsing, like it was in many states. And so I would go months without getting paid any of my unemployment benefits. And like, we had to move out of the city without the countries that like, we could just live off of what my husband was making to pay rent, which was like, not much money. I’ve always been the like, primary breadwinner in our family. And, you know, we gave up a lot of things. And we’re like, it’s okay, you know, this is like, we’re all in on, like, being the best people we can be during the pandemic, right. And there was a point where I was like, I can’t go another month, without any unemployment benefits. And I can’t even like I had applied at every grocery store, every every big box store for a job, they would look at my resume and be like, why would someone who is like a professional, a white collar professional, come and take this job as if like, Hi, have you heard what’s going on in the world? Right? Um, we’re, so we’ve reached this point where I was like, I’m gonna if I don’t get my, all my back benefits, like next week, I’m gonna go apply to an Amazon warehouse. And if this was a thing that like, my husband, and I like cried about, like, like, what, what a hellish, unfair thing to happen. And I said, you know, the thing is, like, I’m not too good for any kind of work. But this job, like working in an Amazon warehouse is too bad for every person involved. Right? Like, that’s why I’m crying about it. Otherwise, you know, it’d be a great chance to get some steps in or something, because we know that like, I’m not even gonna be allowed to use the bathroom when I work there. Right? Or I’m gonna have to run to football fields to text my husband, you know, things like that. Yeah. And so I, I just, it feels like always feels like low hanging fruit to bag on Amazon. But then I see people like posting all the stuff they bought at Amazon. So there you go. Yeah. Right. I mean, there’s Amazon influencers. I know, there’s a lot of them. Okay, so, you know, one of the myths out there, and I do think this partially comes from this idea of, you know, the sustainable, slow fashion community really being dictated by brands within it for so long, the idea out there is that you can’t have unique style, or even dress creatively, and also be making the most sustainable decisions. And I know that that is a big part of, of the narrative that no kill is working to dismantle. Right, right. I would love to hear about your journey to starting no kill. Because I think it’s a really, I know that you believe that you can have incredible style and not be shopping fast fashion. But I think your personal journey to starting no kill really illustrates why you believe that. So thank you, maybe you could share a little bit with that with us? Sure.

Katya

I’m going to go way back, and then you can edit some of this up.

Amanda

Okay.

Katya

Or not? Yeah, no, yeah, or not. Because I was thinking about that, this morning, knowing that we’re going to talk and I really, I really went kind of went way back to thinking even before no kill just about, you know, fashion. And one thing I realized is I grew up Catholic, which I’m not, I don’t identify as Catholic anymore. I’m not a fan of organized religion in general. So it’s not anti Catholic, but we can say, I’m not a huge fan of organized religion, because I think it’s a root of a lot of oppression. But but it affected me in a number of ways. And one thing was, it sent me a really strong message, at least in my household, that wanting more than what was absolutely necessary was somehow wrong or immoral and and especially like wanting frivolous things. And so, and it was hard because as a kid I desperately loved beautiful things like I just, you know, I like the hot pink Barbie and the real Barbie not that generic $1.99 fashion doll with with the hair would flip up and actually be bald, but the full head hair Barbie?

Amanda

I don’t know if you have I know, I know. No, I know that distinction very well, right? Because I definitely had a lot of the ones where you pulled up the hair. And they were bald. Right? Exactly, right. Yeah, yeah.

Katya

So I really, I felt like I was out of place in like, my own personal world like, of where I grew up, because I always kind of wanted more. And then I had a best friend who sort of had everything because her her parents were divorced. And they gave her things as a battle for her affections, which caused her other problems, I’m sure but as a kid, she had a lot of stuff, which was fun to play at her house. But so that there’s that sort of thing that kind of fed into me. And the other thing is, I went to Catholic school with uniforms for 11 and my 12. Now, yeah, it was like to say I hated those uniforms is like an understatement. And one of the reasons is that as someone who was like, you know, very straight middle class, like you, you had the plaid skirt, but then you had to wear like the white or yellow sweater or top. And, you know, my mom got us like the standard uniform ones. That’s it, but the other kids could get like, you know, the Ralph Lauren thing, or the Abercrombie and Fitch thing, you know, so they could signify their wealth and status through what they were wearing, and still be wearing the uniform. And I felt like I had no opportunity for self expression, because I couldn’t afford the status symbols. And there wasn’t an alternative way to like style, the uniform. So it was Yeah, I know, it’s kind of crazy. And so one year, my junior year in high school, my mother finally relented, and let me go to public school because I, you know, I’ve been fighting her since, like, I was 10, that I hated Catholic school. And it really proved to be transformational for me on so many levels. And one of them was, I finally, didn’t have to wear uniforms, and I was all always a Thrifter. Like, I, you know, I didn’t have a lot of money, but I just loved older clothes anyway. So it’s kind of like a natural Thrifter and I thrifted in my grandmother’s attic. And, you know, and I like to kind of sew things myself. Like, if Depop was around at that time, I probably would have set up my own store of like making things but that was all pre internet. And so, for the first 30 days of school, I didn’t wear the same thing twice, because I planned out all my outfits. And, you know, a lot of them were like things I made myself or, you know, thrifted but I was like, so excited about being able to express myself and what I was wearing, because I was kind of shy and kind of introverted, but I always loved fashion. And I finally had this opportunity to, you know, be dressed up among my peers on a daily basis. And so that, that was really big. And I also discovered other like kooky alternative fashion kids and thrifting kids that, again, if the internet was around at the time, I would have seen them on Instagram, but it wasn’t. So I had felt very isolated in my, like, suburban Catholic school. So being able to go to this other school and have this happen.

really showed me sort of like the power of fashion. Which, which I think is Yeah, I think that’s really important. And then let’s fast forward to like I moved to New York, because that’s where people go when they love fashion. And

I ended up there just need to get out of where you from and you need to feel good somewhere. And around 2008 was when Tabby started her blog. And it’s more specifically, I saw a 12 year old dress like an eccentric old grandmother get invited to fashion shows. And I was like, wait, what like because up to that point, like fashion was ruled by the top, you know, like, yeah, totally. This is this is what you were this is who says you were there was kind of some alternative cool magazines, maybe out of London or like the East Village. But you know, I wasn’t cool enough to like be a part of that scene. And so but as like, hey, there’s a 12 year old doing this and then style blogs happened. And I really started to pay attention to that because those were, quote unquote, real people in fashion. But I noticed that all those real people were expensively dressed or they were like genetically gifted, like, models? And or Yeah, so all of the above, right? And so I was like, right, yeah, this is like I, you know, I love looking at these but I felt like there was something missing and I felt what was missing, if I really think about it was like my kooky like high school self who liked to thrift. And then or like then when I went to New York and I used to sort of be like a club kid dancer, like the nightlife kids I saw. And I felt like the style blogs were missing representation of people who had no money, but were super creative with their clothes. So I decided to start my own, and it was called style to find NYC. And that was like, from 2008 to 2014. And it was, it changed my life. Basically, I didn’t make money while while I was doing it, but it did give me some opportunities in terms of like, some photography, some freelance photography fee things, and I inadvertently ended up selling it, which was crazy, which is a whole other thing. But what I didn’t know, I know, it’s, well, I honestly think I got a certain amount of traffic. This was ages ago, this was when it was like a Blogger blog. That’s how it started. And I got a certain amount of traffic. And I think somebody saw it, and they wanted the name and the traffic more than the content. And when they offered to buy it from me, I just was at this perfect crossroads for me that I’d been doing it for several years, I was kind of burnt out. streetstyle was no longer a niche thing, like even Vogue was having it. So you know, it wasn’t as unique. And I used to go out a lot at night and take a bunch of pictures and put a photo up every single day. And so I was tired. I was just like, I don’t want to be out to like, I’m just, you know, I just yeah, I get it. I get it. Yeah. So that ended in 2014. But like I mentioned in 2015, I saw the the true cost. And I started a little bit before the pandemic, I really felt like I want to get my own online publication again, I just I liked having a voice. I liked having something out there. And I knew I want it to be something with sustainability. And so at first I thought it was going to be with food, and it was gonna be called Honey and Hamp. And, and, but that wasn’t resonating with me. And so I was actually meeting with a PR person named Kelly Cutrone and said, I have this idea for a site, but I don’t this is really funny. I said, I don’t want to start it. Unless you think it’s something that’s going to make money because I did this other one. It was so much work. It didn’t really make money. So I don’t want to do another one. And she’s like, she’s like, oh, yeah, yeah, that can make money. Okay, Kelly, I’m still waiting for that. But oh, my

Amanda

God, no, I think that is like I have a conversation I want to be having more often. So I’m glad I just want to let me go back to your story. But I went to an event here in Austin on Friday night that was hosted by sustain another online magazine. And the founder was very explicit. Reza, she said, like, I don’t make any money off of this, I work a day job so that I can keep doing this. Because I’m so passionate about the work I do. And you know, that’s the same for clothes horse. My goal is just to not at least lose money on clothes horse. And I’m sure you feel similarly about no kill. But you do we do it because it’s important

Katya

to us. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

Amanda

And I think that’s something a lot of people would struggle to understand that you would put so much so much unpaid labor into something that you love so much. Yeah, but you know, and

Katya

but I think, you know, it’s funny, because you say that, but it’s like we don’t we don’t question like artists, like an artist. Maybe they’ll paint and maybe they’re hoping that they’ll sell things in the gallery. But maybe they just love painting. It’s they need to express something. And I think I’m not saying like, Oh, what we’re doing is an art, but it’s a form of expression and also a form of communication. And so I think when you have a message and a purpose, like you’re just going to try to get it out there.

Amanda

Totally, totally. I mean, to me, like there are times when I’m like, I need to take a break. But in general, like because I will get people who like, I can’t believe you do this. Why do you work so hard? It’s like I don’t it doesn’t feel like that to me. But it feels Shamy when people say that to you, right? Do you know what I mean? Like?

Katya

I do I do. Because when I go on family, quote unquote, vacations that are really extended, and there are probably stressful, they’re always on my laptop and I’ll go and work for like, three or four hours because that makes me happy. They’re like, What Why are you just working? I’m like, Well, why are you playing pickleball in the Sun which is bad for you? What do I do me what I’m not I don’t sit there and question your pickleball and wine tasting. So let me you know, do what I

Amanda

want to do, you know, totally. And I will say that, like my husband, Dustin, I are really good match in that way. Like, we, early in the pandemic, we did something that was really crazy for us because, you know, we’re not like wealthy people, but we bought an RV. And I mean, like a very used RV, it’s like 30 years old. But we, you know, we were able to, like, scrape the money together to do it. And also we were like, This is so the era we live in right now. We’re like, it will be nice to have a home if everything else falls apart is that. I mean, I know that this is not a feeling that is foreign to people who are listening to this conversation where you’re like, Okay, finally, for the first time ever, we know that we have shelter, right? If everything else falls apart, because it’s kind of like where I live was at this point. And it’s not like this RV was that that much money, right? Um, but so, you know, now we like, we’ll just go away for a weekend in it. And it’s like, there’s always time where we’re both sitting on our computers working on our, like, passion projects, even though like we were probably supposed to be hiking or something, but we’re like, this is this is how we we are happy, you know, until we set up the RV to be good for working, you know, doing computer work and being online and stuff like that. And I we both are always like we’re drinking your coffee. We’re listening to NPR and we’re both like, I’m like, Oh, I’m I’m you know, on Photoshop right now making Instagram posts for clotheshorse. You know, like, that’s waste. And we’re happy. That’s it. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. I think I’m glad we’re talking about

Katya

I can I get shamed a lot for being a quote unquote, workaholic. And I’m like, I’m doing something I love and hopefully it’s contributing to the world and creating community. How’s your Netflix binge going? Like, I don’t say that back to them. But I This is so funny. I’m seriously feeling how this is just completely striking a nerve within me that I don’t normally Express. Honestly, I don’t care about like, people’s Netflix binge or whatever, but I I do care that they look at like me, or, like, as I’m doing things being crazy, because we’re making something like, I don’t know.

Amanda

Yeah, no, I did. I think this is like, I know that there are gonna be people listening to this, if this resonates with them, too. Like, this is my happy place. Yes, you know, and yeah, sometimes I watch Netflix actually, I don’t I cancel my Netflix because of all their transphobic content, but like, I you know, I sometimes will like watch a Lifetime movie or something. And like, you know, that’s not has no intellectual value in my life, but I need that reset, but I also I feel motivated and happy and I don’t know excited when I do this work too. And I don’t get that necessarily for my day job all the time. So it’s a good thing. Right?

Katya

Exactly. And, and I think part of our human need is is to feel like we have a purpose and someone’s purpose could be like raising their kid perfectly or or even raising the dog. I don’t care just just don’t give me shade for my purpose and spending a lot of time on it.

Amanda

Right? Well, I mean, I think that’s like if you want to extend that metaphor if your purpose in life is raising your kids well, or the people you love or your dog or whatever, do you just like forget them when you go on vacation? Yeah

but if you do I’m sure there’s a good reason why and I’m glad that you’re taking that I also understand that yeah, I’m glad I’m glad we’re talking about this like this is stuff we do because we we care right and you know it’s important to us it’s so important that like we’re not you know making enough money off this to like get a yacht or even you know a new computer per se Okay, so anyway back to you too. We met I we just like went we took a big left turn there it was all my fault. Oh, no, no, that’s fine more of your story so of your story here that you want to know so

Katya

basically So Kelly Peterson was like oh absolutely that can make money and so I decided to take the jump of starting no kill but she did I will credit her with coming up with the name no kill because I said I don’t have a good name. I said it was called Honey and hemp. She goes That’s terrible. I’m like, I know it’s terrible. I even

Amanda

ate terrible it made me think of a granola bar

Katya

my limited defense at the time. I thought my friend was going to do things about cooking so that would be like a honey part and then hemp like which I don’t even own any hemp clothing but you know, I was just I was you know a little lost in the wilderness and I had two seconds a honey and hemp Instagram and all I got were like ads for like cannabis. So I like knew I was like not right um, suitcase for that but I love no kill she the first thing she said she goes, How about no kill me because Oh no, it’s terrible. And she’s but she said, you know, like no kill people or the planet. And I really liked it because it sort of has this like, it made me think of like a punk band. Like when those things like you don’t know.

Amanda

Yeah, you know, me too actually. I thought like, the first time we talked, I was like, I bet she is so punk. I really thought you were gonna, I don’t know what that would translate as the sound but I was like, I’m gonna know, that was my expectation. Like, in my mind, you were like, in full outfit. I love it. I think it is such a good name. You know, it’s so it just evokes so many. Right images for what you’re doing?

Katya

Yeah, it’s fun. And we can sort of change it up. So. So that’s how it started. And I’ve just started with me doing some articles. And like I said, I have, because I think because of the pandemic, I was able to get, you know, some remote interns, and every semester, I have some and so they do some writing, which it’s a really good mentorship thing for them actually, as well. Because, you know, I go through there, right? It’s not like, hi, they write and I just publish it. No, but I wish I wish would be so nice.

Amanda

But it’d be convenient.

Katya

But that allows us to have, you know, more articles than just me because I want to expand and sometimes people will approach me say, Hey, I’d like to write an article for you. And I’m like, Okay, that’s great. There’s not a budget, but you know, if it aligns, it has to be aligning not those, I’m sure you get these to like, I you know, Hi, I have a dentist office. And I’d like to write this article, basically, because they want to link back to their site or something. I don’t do those at all. I’m super careful to just do the spammy ones when people who just want to write because they want to write. Yeah, so it’s been Yeah, it’s been exciting. And it’s been fun. And it’s been a lot a lot of work. But, but it’s been good yesterday, actually, we just did a photo shoot of vintage Liqua clothing, because we had access to it. And you know, wearing second, okay, vintage look was not exactly just secondhand, but, you know, mix it up with like, you know, regular things, but just to be like, Hey, look at old things, look at styling, look at, you know, again, let’s make fashion fun. Let’s let’s show a gamut of like, what fashion can be other than like, the new thing or, you know? So we’re trying to do a range of things like that as well.

Amanda

I mean, honestly, as you’re talking about that, I was thinking about a game I used to play with myself and the pre retired reality television era. So this is not something I co opted from television, where I’d go into a thrift store or any store and I would mentally be like, what are the outfits I would make out of this place? Like what I find teach specifically, just what I find here. And it’s because I really enjoyed the creative challenge of it, and didn’t even necessarily mean that I bought any of that stuff, but just the creative outlet of doing that. And now, I want someone to give us a show where we challenge people to do things like that. How do we make that happen? We can co host it, it’s going to be great. I would watch the show. That was

Katya

super fun. That would be really yeah, yes. Yeah,

Amanda

like take people to like different flea markets, or yard sales or clothing swaps, or thrift stores and be like, you know, because I think it’s always like, oh, all the good stuff is taken. There’s no good stuff out there. If I really want to have unique style, or, or feel good about what I’m wearing, I have to just go on like a fast fashion haul bender. And that that’s just, that’s just not true. I mean, you and I know that people who are in this know that. Like, we probably laugh when we hear things like that. But unfortunately, much like there are plenty people out there who think Amazon is like a great company on the up and up. There are also a lot of people out there who think like, if you want to look good, you have to buy brand new clothes. That’s it.

Katya

i Okay, let’s develop the show. I just had even more, I developed it out a little bit while you’re talking. So what if it was there, like it’s two people, it could be us or we can get to other people who can switch who they are, whoever, whatever. So we have two people go to like one place, and they have like an hour to put together like an amazing outfit they each do. And that sort of like a little contest. And I know contests can be like, not like one’s always both, but that will give it that little edge. And then we could just explain like what’s so great about both of them. So they could both be winners in a way. But I don’t know. Because I think so I love this because I think sometimes people think like, oh, well just that person has like such a good eye and I couldn’t do it. I’m like, no, yes, you can. You can. I think people are so used to being told rules and stuff. Did you ever watch that? Um, what not to wear a show?

Amanda

Oh my god, I was just about to ask you. Have you ever watched that show? Because that’s just sort of like this was the polar opposite of what we’re talking about. Right? Because it would be like, we’re gonna come into your house and we’re gonna throw everything way, because everything you’re doing is wrong. You don’t, you don’t have the right instinct or eye for this and you’re gonna replace it with what is quote, right, right. And you’re gonna look like every single other person we’ve ever had.

Katya

Right? I know. But I have to say, I like there was a point where I was like obsessed with I was like watching reruns. And it was, I was fat, because I was fascinated with like what they would do, even though I completely agree like their rules and stuff. And by the way, Stacy London who seems like a really amazing person on Instagram, who was one of the hosts now, like completely disavows it. Like I think that being on that show almost traumatized her, like the way they did that to people.

Amanda

Like I She’s like my dream guest because I would love to talk to her about that show. Because for some of us, that was like a really formative form of media. Right, you know? Yeah.

Katya

Oh, I usually contact her. I think she would do it. She seems very open. Yeah, she’s she’s really quirky now. Like her styles, like, so not at all, like, how it looked in. Yeah, she seems really cool. Like she’s someone you’d want to be friends with? is how I feel about her. I think so too. Yeah. And I think she’s had, I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure like she had depression, and she’s super open about it. She had some mental health issues, and she’s really open. And I think people who do that are like, really brave as well.

Amanda

I think so too. Because like, once again, like I see people who are being open about their mental health, and I’m like, thank you. But there are plenty people out there who are like, what are you like, a snowflake week? Or whatever? Yeah. Or like, why are you talking about this? I want to hear about why I need to throw out all my socks. get new ones. Yeah, yeah. But I do think like, I, I love the idea of like, because I’m constantly thinking like, how do we show people? You know, like, it’s one thing to tell people that only goes so far showing is what’s next. Like? What are the images? What, what is the roadmap that we show everyone? And they’re like, oh, wow, you’re right, like I could, I could not buy anything brand new for a year and look amazing, and be my best self and feel happy. I think there’s a lot of concern that if you want to care about the planet, its people then you have to make tremendous sacrifices to your happiness and sense of well being. And that’s just not true.

Katya

No, it isn’t. And there’s a girl I’m gonna have to look up her name, but she just started an online, I think she can be in person too. She’s based in New York, but stopped, she’s like a stylist, but she will help style what is already in your closet. And I think that’s a great idea of a service to like, because so much of people shopping for new things as they want. It’s to try to, you know, fill an emptiness or get some sort of feeling like, I’m not a psychologist, so I can’t tell people why they’re, you know, why they shot but we know this, we know this instinctively. Like, that’s why yeah, there’s, there’s a thing of like, if I get this new thing, it will make me feel better, even if it’s just temporary. But she does a whole thing where she’ll go through your closet and help restyle it in different ways. And like, that should pass should be a high school class that should be part of homework like, like, seriously? No, I think that’s a great bit like when I heard her about her business, and that she’s gonna get other people to work with her. It’s like, there’s part of me that’s like, Oh, let me just drop everything and go do that. That can be cool. But I’m like, okay, focus. That’s, that’s not. And then Amanda and I are gonna do this reality show where people go in the thrift stores, and they, but

Amanda

I know I can’t wait, like, like, I hope that like there’s a producer listening to this right now. And we’re gonna go make the show because I have, I’m, my brain is moving 10 miles, 10,000 miles an hour right now with ideas.

Katya

That I mean, because that’s, I mean, that’s what people love Project Runway in a way, but that was, you know, they were actually making but we love to see the creative process, but we need to bring people into the creative process. And that’s also part of that thing we were talking about, I think like, before with the right to repair thing is people need to, to know that it’s okay to like, I don’t know, play dress up and do things themselves, things together. And I do think like with Depop, some younger, like, you know, teens and 20 Somethings, there are some that kind of do that, but I still think there’s way too many who Yeah, they just look like to fast fashion to, to dress them in that you know, and then it’s done. But

Amanda

yeah, ya know, I’m really excited about the show. We can’t all of our different brands who are stylists to, like, make guest appearances. We’re like in the space helping like, you know, helping the people pick their outfits. Exactly. Anyway, it’s gonna be sort of like kids, Master Chef, but for outfits so you go out of secondhand outfits. Okay, that’s our that’s our elevator pitch. Okay, well in addition Sheehan

to this new show that is coming that, you know, someday that we just invented. I know that there are other things that you are excited about in the world of sustainable fashion. And I think it’s important for us to talk about those because it’s not all just like despair

Katya

right now. No, no, it’s not. Yeah, I think, well, first of all, just in general, I think there’s a lot of I don’t want to say younger designers, but smaller designers not younger, but smaller, who are becoming more. And I pause because the word sustainable is so overuse,

Amanda

ah, I know, every time I use it, I feel dirty.

Katya

Vanessa Friedman, who writes for fashion for the New York Times has changed her language to responsible fashion that was responsible feels a little clunky, and like, not exciting, too. So I don’t, that’s not quite an either, but because it’s important to have the ethics in there. And because sustainable has been so greenwashed I’m just gonna say responsible, but there’s more.

Amanda

Overhead words get ruined

Katya

on YouTube, like find a new word. So that’s part of it. But other things I’m excited about are actually biomaterials, which a lot of people don’t know about. But for example, a while back, we interviewed a young textile designer from Vietnam, who’s named Chloe Tran and she’s, she went to Parsons here, I think, for textiles, but she started a company called thomtax. And Tom, and I’m probably pronouncing that quite right. But it means shrimp in Vietnamese, and tax for textiles. And she creates a leather like material from a combination of coffee grounds. And shell seafood wastes like shrimp, like shrimp rinds.

Amanda

Wow. Which, I mean, this makes sense to

Katya

me. Like, it’s, it sounds crazy. And what’s cool is, she was inspired to do that, because she lives in Vietnam, where so many, like, of our secondhand clothing goes, and so she saw all this clothing waste, like in her literally, like in her backyard. I mean, not me, not her backyard, but you know, around like in the world in a way that is hidden from us. And so she experimented in this, and just this past New York Fashion Week. This designer Peter doe, who’s also Vietnamese collaborated with her and he created clothes and put them on his runway that like, look like these gorgeous leather pants and shirts. And they are made from this material. And it’s exciting to me on like, so many levels, because first of all, okay, you don’t have like the killing of animals and, and also a lot of leather the way that they prepare, you know, prepare the skins to be used leather is highly toxic and, and bad for the environment. But also, this will then like biodegrade naturally and won’t poison the earth after the fact. So there’s so many things one has to think about. And, but I remember saying that the challenge is making the public know about these options. So like, then we can ask, as companies Hey, are you using this or that otherwise, like big brands aren’t necessarily going to have the incentive to invest in this. But that’s when I find really exciting and mycelium based leather is also gaining traction. That’s what Stella McCartney is using for some of her, you know, leather bags, and Irma’s is going to use now are met so I can feel the eyes rolling. So they make insane if you get the big companies on board, it will trickle down to you know, other companies using it. That this I do believe, you know, so mausoleum is, is based on the fungi that creates mushrooms and it’s just it’s so actually good for the environment. And so again, at the end of life, it’s going to just you know biodegrade and it’s not going to be in a landfill. So I’m super excited about those. I’m excited about the repair movement. I do think that’s happening. I’m excited about the fiber shed movement, which is actually International. It started in California, where Rebecca Burgas who started it I think she just wanted to see if she could get clothes locally made in the most radical way Like literally, like first have like the sheep shorn that creates the wool like literally from like, whatever they come from the from the cotton from the sheep into like clothes, and she ended up having and I’ll be honest, it was a little too Bayesian. Oh, natural. Yeah,

Amanda

but it doesn’t have to guess I’m happy.

Katya

It’s really cool. It’s needed this. This Boothman really crossed the world, but I know they have a fiber shed in Connecticut, I think they have one in New York, California, elsewhere. Where is this community that is, first of all, it’s helping the farmers get money for the wool from their sheep, because a lot of them, they have just meat based sheep. And I’m not gonna get into like, I mean, I tend to be vegetarian, but I’m not gonna get into animal rights things here so much, but no, but the sheep in these places, at least the way they’re shorn and the way the wool is gotten off them is completely ethical. So there’s no pain to the sheep on that. But a lot of the meat based farmers like the wool is like, they don’t get any money for that. So if we could actually start to have more value than we might not have as many like meat based sheep, or there’ll be another, you know, opportunity for that. But so it’s creating sort of like these whole ecosystems of makers, from like, the farm all the way through the fashion in these communities. So, you know, so there’s the knitters, the weavers, it’s cool, I think it’s really, it’s like the slow fashion economic system. And it also helps, you know, with climate change, because you’re not shipping things, the way, you know, the farms are all like, organic, and, you know, and good. And also, they also work a lot with various indigenous cultures. They, they become really, you know, so it’s not just like, again, like the privilege white people, but, you know, looking at, you know, communities that are already here that are already doing some say, Hey, how can we work with you? How can we provide you some income by buying these things from you, and then creating these things? So I’m, I’m excited about that happening? And yes, and I hope, like the fashion gets a little more fashion with a capital F. But yes, I think that, that could definitely happen.

Amanda

I think so too. I feel like thinking back, you know, to say, even just 2020 I’ve seen so many leaps forward in the past few years, and both, you know, emerging technology here, but also just the level of knowledge that people are gaining as a whole about all of this. And like that’s, that really is, you know, someone told me at work last week, I think they’re being a little truly an agents towards me, but they, as they said, saying that knowledge is power is such a boomer thing to say, and I was like, wow, I actually don’t feel that way at all. So I’m not, but no shame if I were. But I like I think that understanding knowing these things, is step one to large scale change. And that’s why it’s important for us to continually be sharing the knowledge and experience that we have with other people, so that they can spread it to the people around them. 100, you know, 100%,

Katya

and following up on that, it’s super important too, because, like, you were saying, you know, those sustainable brands, those initial ones were like these big companies saying what things were, you know, we have to remember that that change that happens isn’t inevitable. And that, like, you know, we talked about, for example, like technology is often like, oh, well, that’s just inevitable that, you know, there’s gonna be more surveillance because there’s the internet, it’s like that it’s like, no, no, that’s a choice is a choice of choosing to give up rights, it’s a choice. So we can have choices. Again, just like, oh, it’s, it’s inevitable Amazon’s gonna take over the world. No, no, it’s not like you, but you have to be shown the other options. And as long as like, you know, the power structure of our country is kind of, you know, anti showing the other options other than hyper capitalism, not to get to like Kiki here. We have to be able to show and that can be something as simple as like, Hey, come on our really cool show about you know, and styling.

Amanda

We did anybody out for us offer a deal for this show? Yeah.

Katya

That was like, you know, no, cool. We have three days three ways which any, anyone listening? If you have something you want to show how you style it three different ways, you know, DM me, and, you know, we’d be happy to have you, but it’s like that. It’s like, hey, look it there’s these alternatives. There’s other ways to do it. It’s not a foregone conclusion that you know, you to look cute. You have to buy fast fashion, they cost $5 I know that. It doesn’t have to be that way. Don’t Don’t, don’t like sell yourself short. Don’t think like, you know, because some powers that be are marketing it to you like that. That’s the only way so so and we’re here to help.

Amanda

We’re here to help and you know, I get it. There are days where I feel like I’m just this grain of sand and this humongous desk are like, What can I do. But I also have to take a step back and think like, actually, you know, fast fashion wouldn’t be this huge behemoth. Amazon wouldn’t be driving out every small business that remains, et cetera, et cetera. If we hadn’t been giving them our money in the first place, that we actually, if you’re like, I don’t have time to call my elected officials or register people to vote, or, I don’t know, teach other people how to mend whatever, if you’re like, I’m barely just getting by with my existence every day and the amount of time that I’m given, that’s fine. But recognize that one easy thing you can do is just not shop with those places anymore. Because they, at the end of the day, I think we start to think of like Amazon or Shenzhen or even forever 21 as these like entities, but really, their businesses that rely on our money to keep going, right, exactly. And if we stopped shopping, they’re like, they will go away. You know, I would read a lot of in the early aughts, like really hand wringing pieces about how Walmart was just destroying, like the main street in every small town buy, like shutting down small businesses, which is true, right, that is exactly what was happening. But I think that there was this implication that it was solely Walmart that was at fault there. And I’m sorry to say this, this is going to hurt some feelings. It was also the fault of the consumers who decided they wanted to go buy everything at Walmart, and not support their local businesses. And maybe they didn’t realize that that’s how things would play out. But now we’ve seen this play out enough times to know that that’s, that’s how, that’s how it ends. Right. And so we all do have so much power to change the world. And we just, we just can’t give up. And we need to be there to remind the others around us that they do to that they’re an important piece of this puzzle. Right,

Katya

exactly. And slightly off topic, we were actually on topic. I just finished reading a visible man by Edward enninful. I don’t know. And he’s the editor of British Vogue. And I have to say that I found it so inspiring, just his journey. And he he’s a gay black male. So the idea that he would become the editor of British Vogue was like, Wyoming. Exactly,

Amanda

yeah. But

Katya

you know, his whole mission. Similarly, like our mission, sort of, like sustainable fashion and responsible fashion, his whole mission is like, diversity and inclusivity. And the things he’s done. And honestly, I didn’t know this till I read this book, because I don’t subscribe to British Vogue, I haven’t paid much attention. But I, you know, I kind of had this vague notion about it. Like, he put frontline COVID workers on the cover one, one issue, which was like, huge, because the cover of the magazine brings so much money to the magazine. And so basically, he’s like, No, we’re not taking the money, we are honoring these people, like just regular people, like nurse and whatever. And, and he’s done some other really radical things of inclusion and putting, you know, many more people of color on the cover or inside. And I just found, like, how he was talking about it. And like, when you have these, you know, a platform, and obviously, our platforms aren’t quite as big as British Vogue. But when you have your platform where you can share things, it’s so important, because that is the way change can happen. Like, if we, if we make it normal, that you know, you know, black women are on the cover of magazines like you and I Picaboo isn’t that normal, but statistically, it’s actually still not that that’s going to change, you know, identities and how people what people think they can do, and same thing if like, we make it normal that like, you know, thrifting is cool. Or Guess what? Maybe you have to save some money to buy a coat, because it’s going to cost more, but it’s going to last longer, you know? Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that is a big part of it. It’s that constant education, and that constant normalizing something that’s not considered the norm because trust me, if he hadn’t become the editor of British Vogue, it would have stayed in the same like very stodgy upper middle class above that, like white women in, you know, in England, you know, because that was it. Yeah. Yeah.

Amanda

And, you know, everybody has a platform. You know, I was I was talking to someone on Friday night about social media, right? And how they’re, you know, there are plenty of bad things about social media. I mean, like people buy a ton of stuff just because they see it on social media. But people see things on social media and makes impact on them whether it is to go buy this new outfit, or if it is to, you know, recycle, reuse their job. or, like, it’s just that easy, but like, you might be like, I only have 1000 followers, I only have 200 followers. I’m not even on social media, I just know some people in real life, that is your platform. And that is how we normalize these things like the a new course for our planet and making this a healthy, safe, happy place for future generations is going to involve change from all of us like, yes, it’s going to mean that like big, sweeping corporate change is going to have to happen, there is certainly going to be need to be eaten a total shift in how our laws around environmental and worker protections work right now, there’s gonna be a lot of new research and technology involved, of course, but also, there will be large societal changes, where all of us are changing how we live to our day to day life. And it starts now. And it starts with us normalizing new things. I mean, even just as simple as like, normalizing taking the bus or riding a bike versus like driving everywhere. I mean, that’s like old school at this point, right? Like, we all know that one.

Katya

But, but like, what I think, like normalizing composting, like,

Amanda

I look seriously, it’s intimidating to people, no, show them it’s not.

Katya

I live in Brooklyn, and in an apartment, like, we use this, we use our milk cartons, and we put like, everything in the milk cartons, and then on Saturdays, there’s somewhere right by our house, or there’s also a community garden. But honestly, we’ve just started doing it regularly, like in the past year. And it’s like, and I tried to get my relatives who live like in the Midwest, and they have all the space in the world to do it. And they’re like, I’m like, we we use so many less garbage bags now because of it.

Amanda

Oh my gosh, I know no. Same for me. I mean, I’ve been lucky in that. Well, when I lived in Portland, we had composting there, which was great like a compost camp, I got picked up every week. In Philadelphia, we did not have that. And so we had to like hire a service to do it. Then we moved up to the country where we were like, We’re legit. We’re like, here’s our huge ass composting can out in the backyard that I literally used in our garden. Also, compost is like both gross and fascinating, too. When you’re doing it yourself. It’s like an I’m Trust me, I read a lot of books about composting like a year ago. And now we now that we’re living in a city again in Austin, we like our city picks up compost. But like when we moved to Philly, and we didn’t have access to compost, initially, the amount of trash bags we were going through. And we’re not like big food waste, right? But it just adds up, right? It’s like coffee grounds. Number one right or like, I always save all of our food scraps and use it to make vegetable broth, which then I use in all of our cooking. But like after you cook the broth, you still have like this, like primordial ooze of vegetable scraps, right? That was nothing that would be like half a trash bag, you know. So I also composting can save you money. I think composting is a great thing to normalize because people are freaked out by it because it’s trash. Right? Yeah, it’s scary. I mean, that’s one way that you as an individual can make an impact is by showing people how you compost No, or how you repaired things, or how you remove the stain or how you stained your favorite dress. But then just dye to green. And now it’s a new dress, right? Like there. There are all these things that people aren’t thinking of, or they are thinking they can’t do that they don’t have the power or skills to do. And you can show them that they can do it. Yeah,

Katya

totally. I’ve gotten so funny lately that like, I’m just like on the street and I like eat a banana. I’m like, Okay, I have to wait till I’m like by a park or something so I can throw a banana peel under it. So it just degrades naturally. I kept my banana peel in the garbage and like I you know, I grew up going like, Oh, that’s gross when people just leave their banana peel not in the garbage. But like I’m completely like flipped. I don’t know if what I’m doing is better. But so what I do,

Amanda

yeah, yeah, I do. I actually i The banana is is the struggle is real. I recently had that on when we were in Mexico City a few weeks ago, and I was eating a banana and I was like, Okay, do I need to carry this peel around all day? Or should I should we go to a park just so I can put it in the bushes? And I was like I’m in the in the future? You need to eat bananas only near things, right? Yeah, welcome to our live see we just normalized it. It’s okay to if you too are fretting about banana peels or apple cores or whatever else it is that you are eating. I get it. Yeah, but it all starts with us. You know, and I think I when I hear people saying like, Oh, one person can’t make a difference. So I’m just gonna give up. I mean, like, I get comments on that on Instagram constantly. You’re like, I get what you’re saying, but one person can’t make a difference. And I’m like, wow, you haven’t like been reading and I’ve been posting, but also I get that feeling because I feel that way sometimes too. And then I someone will send me a message and say like, you know, I thrifted my entire Halloween costume this year because it’s something you said or I took a sewing class so I can repair my clothes because of this one episode we did about sewing and like those are the I’m just one person. I You know,

Katya

the way I look at this is I don’t know why. But I always have this vision in my head like a bowl full of sand and a bowl with nothing. And everyday I just put like one little grain of sand in that other bowl. I

Amanda

love that. Yeah, I

Katya

don’t know where I came up with that or why I decided that, but I just, I just have to have faith that like, eventually this is all going to go over to here and that it does make a change. Because you’re putting it like

Amanda

that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Someone shared a different metaphor with me the other day with which is a lot grosser, which was like, how do you eat an elephant? And it’s like, one bite at a time. And I was like, Okay, well, this vegan version of that. We just set it so thank you. We do I know. I was like, Why did you pick it out of it? Right? Can you said like a T Rex, something that doesn’t exist? It would have been like, because I was like, I feel sad. I don’t want to eat those elephant. I guess I’m giving up. But yeah, it you know, it just it’s not going to happen overnight. But it’s also never going to happen if you just give up

Katya

exactly. And, and like we were saying there are so many like, once you start to kind of like look for like the sustained sustainable options. It’s fun. I think it’s fun. And people go to no kill for shopping tips. Very good. I mean, we made shopping guides. I mean, sometimes I’m like, oh my god, do we have to tell people where to buy things? And then like, oh, conscious stop things such as snot, just like,

Amanda

I mean, that one is hard for me, right? Because I, I want to turn the narrative away from shopping. Right? But we’re just not there yet.

Katya

And it’s a it’s people’s gateway. To me like, yeah, like, if they don’t know anything about like sustainable fashion, it’s like, the first thing they want to know is what can they buy? And it’s if you say to them, no, no, don’t don’t think that way. The I think they’re gonna turn off right away. They’re gonna be like, Oh, crazy, hippie drink or something? I don’t know. You know, there’ll be like, you’re just not even on my planet, if shopping isn’t part of my solution. So yeah, it’s funny, because I get tired of like, going like, should we? Should we add another article like about, you know, shopping, you know, for new jackets or something? Because then you have to update them. I tried to do just more like, these are the best stores for this. These are the best stores for that. But yeah, I think shopping is still an important thing, at least in the US. I interviewed or sold to Castro. And like, I don’t know, when this was probably like six months ago or so. And I was talking to her and I was saying how, like, with no kill, we tried to like meet people where they are. And we try to make it sort of like a fashion, you know, a fashion magazine that just happens to be sustainable. And she was like, oh, no, I think people are like, beyond that. I think people will already know that. And I really wanted to be like, maybe in London, but

Amanda

not here. Yeah, I’m not here. I know.

Katya

Because our country is so big that things can be hidden, like landfills. That like Yeah, I mean, the UK is relatively small. I mean, compared to hear so like, I think things like waste things like, you know, dwindling resources they see in a way that when you have like huge mountains and prairies and stuff you don’t see. And suburbs, really big suburbs.

Amanda

Yeah, yeah, no, it’s true. It’s true. I think, here. I mean, I sort of think like information travels more slowly here. Like, there’s just so many people, right? And so many places, and so many different networks of people. Because I do I do get feedback like that sometimes to like, I think you’re really pointing out the obvious here. And it’s always someone who’s not from the United States, or has lived in the big city their entire life and doesn’t know like, whereas I can tell you like, it was revelatory for my step mom and dad, that most clothes had polyester in them. Right, you know? Yeah, I mean, like, it’s true. And I think that, like, they’re, all of us, even people who are listening to us probably have knowledge, wisdom, if you will, that you have acquired through your own journey in life, that many people around you do not know. And it’s great to share it. And I think that, you know, we’re often discouraged from doing that, especially if we are women or non binary. Or just like, you know, not white sis, dudes, right? And I think, like, you know, we’re not supposed to be smart. I know that because I was told that in like, eighth grade that boys would like me if I stopped being so smart, which is like, Why? Why I don’t want to live in that world. But I definitely took that advice to heart for a really long time. And I’m going to tell you all get out there and be loud about the stuff you know, because people want to hear it.

Katya

Definitely. And we do have platforms here right? We all have platforms where we can we all

Amanda

have platforms. We all matter. Yeah. In this. Yeah. Well, this was so delightful. I had such a On time, do you have any, like final parting words? Or? I don’t know, anything you want to share? If you don’t it’s okay to I mean, that’s like a really difficult question.

Katya

I mean, I think just basically what you said, I mean, we’re all, well, we’re all part of it. And I think, especially as you know, women are non straight white dudes, to really acknowledge and embrace our worth, and our knowledge, I feel like that’s been an ongoing journey for me in my life to be like, I’m worthy. Or what I, what I have to say is worthwhile and worth people listening to, because I think we are taught to shut down and we are taught to discount ourselves. And I think it’s really important. If you actually look, you know, women are at the forefront of the climate movement. and I were at the forefront of the fashion sustainable fashion movement. And I think it’s important for us to push forward because there’s plenty of people who’d like to shut us down, but we’re not gonna let that happen. So I can let it happen. And yeah, and it’s fun, and it can be fun. And it can be exciting and can be a community so it’s not just beige and green. It’s hot pink, too.

Amanda

Yeah, yeah. And patterns, makes patterns, whatever. Are you cottage core, are you I don’t know, like futuristic. are you thoughts? We have we have come join us. You’re part of this. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much.

Katya

Thank you so much for having me.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Thanks again to Katya for being such an amazing guest. I could have talked to her for about 100 more hours and we are already talking about ways we can work on other projects in the future. If you know anyone who wants to produce our thrifting challenge reality show, drop me a line. I’m serious! In the mean time, go follow @nokillmag on Instagram and check out all of the amazing and inspiring content Katya and her team are creating at nokillmag.com

To repeat what Katya said early in our conversation: The future is a place we invent. Change is a choice and we all have a place in making that change. I know, I know that it feels so overwhelming some times. Yes, even I wake up some days and just wonder if I should just give up and become one of those Target influencers or something. But you know what? Something I have found is that once you know what is right and what is important, it’s like a seed that plants in your brain and just grows and grows. You can’t turn it off. You can’t ignore it. And it begins to show itself in the decisions you make in every aspect of your life. Even though sometimes it is frustrating or even, I don’t know, exhausting…you know that you’ll never be happy if you just give up, because that seed and its resulting bloom is part of you now. I’m glad that seed found its way into my brain and by now its a full-on tree that gives me both motivation and strength. And the work I do here and in my own private life nourishes both that tree AND me. It gives me the energy to educate others, stand up to internet trolls, and work to find the better way to do things. I hope–no, I know–that you will find yourself feeling the same way. We all have a place in this!