Episode 171: Unpacking our relationship with ultra fast fashion with Danielle Vermeer (part 1)

Welcome to Clotheshorse, the podcast that is now officially self employed!

I’m your host Amanda, and this is episode 171. Today my guest is Danielle Vermeer, co-founder and CEO of Teleport. Teleport is “a next-gen thrifting app to discover, buy, and sell from outfit videos.” Imagine shopping secondhand via a TikTok style platform, but with a lot more community and inspiration attached to it. This episode will feature part one of our conversation, where we will be discussing why Shein is so popular with Gen Z (and many, many millennials) despite our drive for social and environmental justice.

Before we jump into that conversation, I think it’s a great time to revisit and kind of update where the fashion industry is, particularly when we talk about fast fashion and now, ultra fast fashion.

As we talk about often here at Clotheshorse, there was a time when clothing was kinda expensive. Or at least, more expensive than it is now in this century…and that was the 1990s and even the first few years of this century. Yeah, Y2K clothing was actually kinda pricey, especially when we compare those prices to now. And in the 1990s and earlier, the idea of a shopping haul didn’t really exist. Maybe if you did a whole day of Christmas shopping. Or you were doing your back to school shopping with your mom (which usually was still just a few pairs of jeans, a couple of shirts, maybe some new shoes and a backpack…it wasn’t a whole new wardrobe in one foul swoop). AND…shopping at that point was kinda…well…work! Driving here, parking, walking around, trying on stuff, maybe not finding what you liked, getting back in the car and going to the next place. Buying a lot of stuff all at once was very challenging because it required a lot of time! And, you had to actually encounter the things you wanted to wear, that fit you, that you needed IRL, which meant you might not find that much stuff that checked those boxes.

And then fast fashion arrived on the scene. In the beginning, it was just a few retailers, with Forever 21 and Zara specifically leading this transformation of the way clothing was made and sold to us. For decades, retailers and brands would drop a new collection of products every month (at most), but primarily carry the same stuff for a whole season, just adding new color ways or special items throughout that season. And this shaped consumer behavior in a few ways:

For one, if you weren’t feeling a brand’s trend direction, color palette, or general product assortment during a season, you were sorta out of luck. And if lots of customers didn’t like it…well, the brand was out of luck, experiencing lower sales and being forced to sell more stuff at a markdown to get rid of it.

Furthermore, as a customer, you didn’t feel like you had to visit a store regularly in case you missed out on something. Because there wasn’t a lot of new stuff to snag. Once a month or every few months would do just fine.

From an internal perspective, dropping new product far less often meant that retailers had plenty of time to get fit, materials, and all of the other details just right. The timeline for producing product was so much slower, that a retailer would probably start working on a delivery 9 months in advance, ideating, designing, sampling, writing orders, continuing to do fittings and wear tests, until finally receiving the product–shipped the slow way on a boat across the ocean–months later.

This is where my career began. I worked for a retailer whose quality was in line with fast fashion and definitely targeted a younger customer, but we still planned our product offering well in advance. And while we delivered new items every month, it wasn’t a whole new store every week. In one of my categories, I might have 6-10 new styles each month, plus reorders and color updates on best sellers. That was another thing that was a key part of retail at that point: lots of what we called “evergreen” styles that we carried for years on end, adding new colors here and there to get people to buy more of them. But if you bought a pair of skinny jeans and liked them, odds were high that you could come back and buy the same pair in 3 months, 6 months, or even a year later.

Forever 21 and Zara were different. Stores received new styles every week, sometimes every day. And everything was less expensive than other brands. Furthermore, FOMO was a big part of the business model: if you didn’t visit regularly and buy something as soon as you saw it, it probably wouldn’t be there the next time you went in. And you would never find it again. Because they weren’t in the “evergreen” business. It was all about newness. And when you went into these stores, rather than seeing 2-3 trend concepts (think: aesthetic themes) playing out, you would find half a dozen or more. It kinda felt like there was something for everyone.

Forever 21 and Zara had a catch, though: the steady flow of new products at the lowest prices meant customers had to make a trade off: basically they could have those things for sure, but that meant sacrificing quality and fit. These clothes were quasi-disposable, often not holding up for very many wears, or being unable to survive even one wash cycle. The fit was inconsistent and not great. But it worked. Because customers preferred low prices and trendiness. These brands were trading in volume: get a customer to come in shopping every week, sell them a few items every time, and suddenly you could run a billion dollar business off of selling very inexpensive clothing.

Furthermore, the original fast fashion brands gave millennials something they had never had before: personal choice. Now that they were moving into adulthood, not only did they have the personal freedom to wear what they wanted, they also had the option of many more choices. And if they didn’t like what they were offered this week, that was okay because there would be new stuff next week. It felt like an endless buffet of clothing, where there was always something you needed and wanted. And this is revelatory when you are in that phase of life where you are constantly trying out new things as you figure out who you are and what you like. Clothing is obviously a huge part of that!

The other non-fast fashion retailers initially turned up their noses at the original fast fashion brands. They were cheap, they lacked brand cachet, and surely customers would eventually walk away from the racks of low quality polyester clothing. But they didn’t. And when the recession began in 2008, more and more people opted into fast fashion. In fact, as regular retailers struggled, Forever 21 and Zara were opening up more and more stores, reaching more and more customers…stealing them away from everyone else.

Ultimately, the rest of the retail industry had no choice but to adopt the fast fashion model, too: selling as much stuff as possible, as often as possible. And delivering new stuff as often as possible. First everyone raced their way to the bottom, with endless sales and permanent promos. When low prices were no longer a unique selling point because everyone was pricing the same, it shifted into being the first to offer a trend, no matter how specific or small. And this changed everything.

Now customers felt the drive to shop multiple times a week, whether that was by visiting a store or shopping online. In fact, as shopping shifted more and more online, retailers were able to offer even more new styles every day or week because they were no longer confined by what they could fit in a brick and mortar store.

Social media partnerships with influencers gave retailers a chance to normalize a steady flow of new clothes through outfit of the day posts. And every trend–no matter how fleeting–could be shown on Instagram or Tumblr, building more customer interest.

People working within the industry were working faster, with less time. Rather than planning months and months out, it was all happening in 1-3 months. Everything shipped via air to save time and…of course with less time, there were less fittings (if any at all) and less opportunities to get the product just right. But Forever 21 and Zara had already proven that customers prioritized price and newness over quality and fit.

In fact, as retailers worked to cut costs year after year after year (because that’s how retail works, you always have to be more profitable this year than you were last year), they pushed the envelope in terms of just how shitty something could be and still be desirable. And customers didn’t push back. At some point, we accepted clothing as quasi-disposable (spoiler: those clothes live for centuries in landfills when we are done with them).

Forever 21, Zara, and H&M–what I consider the “original fast fashion” brands continued to lead the pack even after every other brand had adopted the fast fashion model. They opened stores across the US, becoming accessible to just about everyone…well, not everyone because these brands were still not addressing extended sizing. Put a pin in that thought because we’ll come back to that.

Forever 21 was expanding its store footprint too, eating up neighboring spaces in malls and taking over anchor spaces once occupied by department stores. And by 2019, according to Amanda Mull, “The brand’s average store ha[d] grown to nearly 40,000 square feet—more than 30 percent bigger than the average Best Buy.

Just when we thought clothing couldn’t get cheaper or worse, just when we thought trends couldn’t move faster…enter…ULTRA FAST FASHION, which immediately made Forever 21 and Zara look like out of touch dinosaurs.

In fact, by October 2019, there was a clear indicator that something was changing on the retail/fashion landscape. By now, numerous fast fashion brands had come and gone including Wet Seal and Charlotte Russe. The market seemed to be oversaturated, now that everyone had adopted the fast fashion model. It didn’t help that the illusion of choice that millennials had experienced in the first few years of fast fashion had seemed to be, well, just what I said…an illusion. Because over time every retailer began selling the same thing, as they rushed to adopt every trend and offer something to every customer (well, except for larger customers, but we’ll get to that in a moment). But if you remember off the shoulder blouses lingering for far too long or boho festival aesthetic getting so watered down and tired…well, that was part of this sort of “uniformity” that fast fashion began to embody. Everybody was selling the same thing and if you didn’t like the current trends or had moved on, you were out of luck…just like the pre-fast fashion era, it was possible to not want to buy anything offered to you for months because nobody had anything you liked.

Furthermore, people cared less about shopping IRL. Ecommerce was easier and convenient. Most retailers offered free shipping and returns at this point, so there was no risk in shopping online. And Forever 21 had been late to the online shopping game, their website felt very uncool, their shipping took forever, their product photography wasn’t aspirational or interesting, and they seemed to be missing more and more trends. And furthermore: they weren’t expanding sizing fast enough. Meanwhile, upstarts like Fashion Nova and Shein were swooping in with all the sizes, prices that were possibly lower than Forever 21, and even more products to offer.

Ultra fast fashion first arose as a conversation topic, as a term in mid-to-late 2020, as Shein and Boohoo became bigger and bigger. And these brands were taking the fast fashion model and shifting it into overdrive, because they could do everything faster and cheaper. While Forever 21 and Zara were delivering new styles to stores and their website every week, it might only be 100 styles (which is still a lot). Asos–which was entirely online–was dropping 7,000 new items EVERY SINGLE WEEK. I can’t even fathom that. That seems so over the top…but Shein was like “hold my beer,” and started launching about 6,000 new styles EVERY SINGLE DAY.

These ultra fast fashion brands, like Shein, like Boohoo, even like a lot of the rando brands selling on Amazon now…they were able to drop this steady flow of new, cheap clothes because they didn’t have the burden of brick and mortar stores. And they have more “factory direct” relationships, so they aren’t working with vendors and agents like the other big brands. Forever 21 did have a lot of factory relationships (not necessarily owning factories per se), but they still had to ship everything to the US, to their distribution centers and then off to stores, etc. That slowed things down a little bit.

Meanwhile, Shein could offer every micro-trend or TikTok aesthetic as fast as they arose on social media. The variety of choices made Forever 21 look like the local corner store. And they offered more sizing and low prices (along with all kinds of additional discounts). Customers were encouraged to order so much at one time, that they became “hauls” of newness.

And with a global pandemic limiting where we could go or what we could do, this was a perfect time for ultra fast fashion to offer us a virtually infinite array of things to buy in a very convenient way. In fact, “In April 2020, U.S. clothing sales plummeted by 79 percent from March; McKinsey predicted that global fashion-industry revenues would contract by 30 percent in 2020.” Retailers were saddled with inventory that they could not sell, forcing them to close stores and do layoffs. But retailers like Boohoo and Shein–who were solely based online, who didn’t have to worry about stores and excess inventory–they actually saw growth during that time period. And they capitalized on something that we have all come to realize over the past few years: while people might be worrying about money or see a drop in their financial security–they don’t stop buying stuff…they keep on shopping, just for less expensive stuff. And these ultra fast fashion brands had the perfect prices.

Rachel Monroe describes it best in her piece for The Atlantic titled “ULTRA-FAST FASHION IS EATING THE WORLD, “The ultra-fast-fashion brands have designed a shopping experience that makes the consumer feel as if the clothes magically appear out of nowhere, with easy purchasing and near-immediate delivery. The frictionless transactions contribute to the sense that the products themselves are ephemeral—easy come, easy go.”

And yet…we know that none of these items are truly ephemeral, right? Or more accurately, you and I know that…but we have to get others to recognize that. Because while a $20 dress or a $3 tank top might feel low value and therefore “disposable,” it comes at a huge price: worker exploitation, consumption of resources like water and fossil fuels, and its future (much longer) life as pollution.

Ultra fast fashion continues to become faster and more innovative. Temu has arrived on the scene, with prices lower than Shein. People find dupes of dupes on AliExpress for even lower prices. In fact, a “QVC for Gen Z” has popped up on TikTok, thanks to TikTok shopping, where content creators sell drop shipped clothing from AliExpress/AliBaba for prices that are as low–or lower than–Shein, with bundles, discounts, and giveaways. They give a small share of their revenue to TikTok and buyers get access to lots of cheap clothing. But as a great piece from the Cambridge University student newspaper says, “Buyers are receiving products that do not have a long lifespan, while sellers are relying on poor working conditions and harm to the environment to line their pockets.” It’s not a great situation, right? I’ll share that article in the show notes because it will explain this business model a bit more.

Meanwhile, Shein (and all of the other ultra fast fashion brands) have practically become shorthand for “stealing from artists, designers, and small brands.” And they were getting away with it because it’s hard to fight a bigger retailer when you’re a small business…furthermore, customers were buying these copies without hesitation.

In mid-July, , three independent designers/artists (Krista Perry, Larissa Martinez, and Jay Baron) filed a case in California federal court against Shein and its “related entities” (more on that later).

I am so proud of them for making this move because it has been a long time coming! Just about every artist/designer/brand I admire has been knocked off by Shein over the last few years.

The case involves copyright and trademark infringement by Shein, specifically citing“their practice of “produc[ing], distribut[ing], and selling exact copies of their creative works,” which they allege is “part and parcel of Shein’s ‘design’ process and organizational DNA.”

A case of this nature has been a long time coming because Shein is infamous for copying artists and designers and never facing repercussions for it. And social media is filled with stories of artists and designers trying to hold Shein accountable without success.

The case claims that Shein uses a powerful algorithm to capture fashion trends early in the cycle, then uses its production and fulfillment infrastructure to make “billions of dollars” churning out new product and stealing designs/art every day.

Shein generally gets away with this unethical behavior for several reasons:

It usually orders only about 200 units of a new item. In contrast, a standard fast fashion retailer would order 1,000 to 10,000+ units in an initial order. In fact, Shein’s ability to produce so few units speaks to its unique factory situation, because it is extremely difficult to make less than 300 units of anything..and even 300 units is iffy, even when you are a large retailer. Usually prices go up as the size of an order goes down, making small batches too expensive for your standard fast fashion customer’s budget. So this ability to produce in very small batches and keep pricing low gives Shein a major advantage.

Why does Shein order so little? It allows them to test the legal waters. If an artist/designer/brand discovers the stolen design, Shein can settle cheaply and fast, with little financial loss.

The small quantity allows Shein to claim it was a “blip” in the system. Often Shein will say that a third party partner was responsible for the “mistake,” which allows them to avoid accountability from both the designer AND its customer base.

As I mentioned earlier, designers and artists are generally unable to do very much about Shein’s intellectual property theft.

If the designer can afford a lawyer (and that’s a big IF), they might be able to negotiate a settlement. More often than not, nothing really happens, other than Shein pulling the item off the website.

Furthermore, if there is no pushback from the creator of the design, and customers like the product, Shein will order many more units. When customers buy copies/knockoffs, they are actually signaling Shein to continue copying.

Often when an idea/design/art enters the “knockoff” cycle via SHEIN, it’s just the first stop on a long, uncontrollable chain of copies that move through progressively less reputable brands, ultimately living on Amazon or AliExpress for years. This robs the original creator of ownership and often decreases the value of their original work. This can end their business completely or force them to find a different direction. To be clear: stealing designs and art is NOT a victimless crime. It actually stifles creativity and innovation while stomping out small business.

This lawsuit is specifically using RICO laws as its basis. The RICO act (“Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations”) was first used in the 1970s to take on the Hell’s Angels. It has been used since then to dismantle organized crime. It was also used in the Enron and Bernie Madoff cases.

The RICO act allows authorities to take legal action against collectives and conglomerates, rather than an individual or single company.

While using laws that were designed to take down organized crime might seem a little dramatic, this is essential in holding Shein accountable, because while it seems like a big monolithic company to customers, it’s actually a collective of shell companies, holding groups, and random-seeming conglomerates based all around the world, in what the case calls a “byzantine shell game of a corporate structure.”

This confusing structure allows Shein to duck a lot of responsibilities:

Legal repercussions of intellectual property theft and consumer injury. Tracking down a defendant for any lawsuit is nearly impossible. Often cases cannot move forward. Find lead in your Shein clothing? Oh well there’s no one to hold responsible. Same thing if you discover they have stolen your art or design.

Taxes and duties. No clear central hub in one specific country allows Shein to avoid a lot of taxes and customs fees. And yes, that saves them a lot of money.

It also allows Shein to skirt issues of labor safety and wage theft. If it’s unclear who is responsible for a factory or a product, government agencies cannot hold anyone accountable or force change.

I have heard whispers that more artists and designers are joining this lawsuit and I’m really excited about it! To be clear, Shein isn’t doing you a “favor” by creating a cheap knockoff of something you like. They are just profiting from unethical behavior. And I’m not okay with that.

I will update you as I hear more on this case. In our next episode, I will be talking more about these other ultra fast fashion brands, including Temu and Dolls Kill.

Okay, let’s jump into my conversation with Danielle!

Amanda:

Okay Danielle, why don’t you introduce yourself to everyone?

Danielle:

Hi, I’m Danielle Vermeer and I am obsessed with solving customer problems at this intersection of fashion, tech, and resale. I’ve been an avid thrifter my entire life and I’m now going on 12 years of buying no new clothes. So only thrifted, secondhand, vintage, swapped, made by myself, all of that. So I have a deep interest and passion for sustainability and secondhand fashion. and making it 10 times easier for consumers, especially younger consumers interested in fashion, to shop secondhand first. I’m the co-founder of a new fashion tech startup called Teleport, which is a thrifting app where you can buy and sell directly from output videos. So think of it like if TikTok and Depop had a baby. And I previously led resale and circular fashion at Amazon fashion. where I built and launched our first luxury resale program from the ground up.

Amanda:

I mean, I’m sure you have tons of Amazon stories, but that would be another episode.

Danielle:

Yes, many, many stories.

Amanda:

No doubt, no doubt. Yeah, I’m excited for us to talk about Teleport, which we’ll get to later, because I can’t believe how many people are selling really, I mean, for lack of a better adjective, really shitty fast fashion on TikTok right now. And like, as far as I can tell, making a lot of money.

Danielle:

Absolutely.

Amanda:

It’s wild

Danielle:

I think people

Amanda:

to me.

Danielle:

are addicted and enthralled with whole culture, seeing these huge bags of clothes, whether it’s fast fashion or honestly from the thrift store. It’s very voyeuristic in a way. But I think it’s a form of entertainment that’s been habituated through social media of living through that dopamine hit, even if you’re not actually the one with the whole

Amanda:

Yeah, it’s interesting, it’s such a cycle sort of. Like, you can be the person who bought the haul and get that satisfaction of the dopamine rush of buying a lot of stuff all at once. Then you get the second rush of posting it online and getting other people’s approval. Then you as the viewer can see it and get the dopamine rush of seeing someone else buying so much stuff, but then it can also lead you to go buy your own haul of stuff. So you can be part of that cycle too, right? And I was thinking about this the other day because, you know, obviously we see a lot of ho-ho videos on social media, but even on Reddit and Facebook, there are a lot of groups and subreddits that are specifically for people who really love one brand, whether it’s like, you know, Glossier, or as broad as Sephora, or other cosmetics brands, and then Skincare, and then, you know, like Selkie, or other brands, and people just will post. photos of their halls like every day. Whether it’s, I mean people will be like, look at my Ulta hall, you know?

Just, it’s wild to me and like all the conversation that comes like in a time where it can be really hard to feel good sometimes, I see the appeal of posting a photo of all the stuff you just bought and people applauding you.

Danielle:

I think there’s a difference between haul culture and being a collector and being a part of a collector culture.

And so I think where, if you think about kind of the access on one end, a consumer consumption driven mindset, and hen the other side, more of a collector mindset. And so collector could be of anything. It could be of Pokemon cards, of Barbie dolls, of… of very specific niche designer brands or glossier makeup. It could be high and low, left and right, anything. But I think where the difference lies is what is that mindset? Is it to accumulate for the sake of buying that dopamine hit to own that item and then probably get rid of it? Or is it more of that collector mindset where you just genuinely have a love, a deep interest of whatever that niche is, and you enjoy those products. You enjoy displaying them in your home, telling other people about it, being in kind of collector, online, in real life communities, and it’s more part of that identity rather than just showing off the stuff that you have.

Amanda:

I think that’s true and I think the identity piece of it is really fascinating to say like, oh, a key part of my identity is that I buy everything Glossier makes, you know, and I think it’s also a reflection of our culture and like it’s kind of like we live in this brand led culture right now.

Danielle:

Absolutely. And I mean, on TikTok, thrift hauls are super popular.

Amanda:

Mm.

Danielle:

Shein hauls, other fast fashion hauls are astronomically popular. I think the last time I checked the hashtag shein haul had over 12 billion views.

Amanda:

Oh, oh.

Danielle:

And in contrast, thrift hauls have about three and a half billion. So still an amazing number of people who are viewing, engaging, sharing with that content. And it definitely gets to this point of What is this for? Who is this for? Because it’s striking a chord. But what is happening beneath the surface that we are addicted in a way to these halls, which leads to not just viewing. We know it leads to more consumption, more wastefulness in a lot of ways, because when you’re buying so much more than you could possibly use, if you’re buying 50 items every few months from a shean, even if you wore each of those items every day, you’re still not gonna go through all of it.

Amanda:

No.

Danielle:

And so it really is like, what is happening here? What is driving this? What’s underneath the surface that is causing this over consumption?

Amanda:

Yeah, it’s interesting to think about Shein. Have you ever bought anything from Shein? I’m guessing no.

Danielle:

I’ve never purchased anything new from Shein, but I’ve had a few pieces from clothing swaps that were from Shein. And then even on resale platforms, I see it all over the place now.

Amanda:

Me too.

Danielle:

And in thrift stores, honestly, so many local thrift stores by me are just being overridden by Shein and other fast fashion brands on the rocks, which is really disappointing because I’ll get excited. I’ll be like, oh, this is cute. And I’ll pull it off. I’m like, damn it. It’s Shein.

Amanda:

Every time I go thrifting, this is the story, absolutely. And I feel like it happened very, very fast, where for a while, every time I saw something cute, I’d pull out and be an Old Navy and I’d be really puzzled for a moment. I’d be like, dang you, Old Navy, for sometimes copying vintage things or whatever. And then we were talking about Shein a lot in 2020, and then suddenly it moved into the racks. And now it’s more and more Shein every time I go, which really speaks to how fast this product comes in and out of people’s lives when they buy it. So… Something that has puzzled me about Shein because I have not bought anything directly from them either but I have bought stuff secondhand is I’m assuming based on just spending time on their website that there are a lot of buttons that it pushes in your brain as a consumer that motivates you or incentivizes you to buy a lot at once. To not just say, oh, I just came here for two pairs of pants and to leave, but to add more stuff because anytime I see a haul video, It’s so much stuff. It is so much stuff that one person bought at one time. And I know that is more than norm. And so I’m assuming it motivates customers probably via like discounts and pre-shipping thresholds and all that stuff to buy a lot. But it is interesting.

Danielle:

There’s definitely those standards of dark patterns or just regular e-commerce incentives where you mentioned free shipping, bundles, discounts. I think the incredibly low prices are almost hard to believe, especially if you’ve been on the other side and you know what goes into clothing manufacturing. You know what it costs to create a garment, let alone a higher quality. more durable garment, it’s really unfathomable to see a dress for $4.50. Like what? Like what is happening? Does anyone else look at this and think this is not possible without something else happening? And I think the idea of buying 50 items for $200 and so you’re getting these items. You can also do that at the thrift store. You can get 50 items for $200, but I think the overall objective quality is likely to be higher if you’re buying secondhand,

especially if those items have been made before, you know, 10, 15 years ago before quality of manufacturing and clothing has really declined. But it’s this allure of buy, and look at these great deals you’re getting. I think the merchandising is also. To be honest, very smart

because the business model is looking at what’s trending, what’s up and coming, what are people connecting with, engaging with on social media and creating these smaller batches of products that are at the tip of that trend. And so if you are looking for the ability to activate that trend in your own style, your own closet, but for a fraction of the price. it’s going to serve that up in a very palatable way.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. I mean, even I was just looking at the words that Shein is clearly paying a lot of money for on Google shopping, and I was like, wow, they’re so smart. Like, I couldn’t find one phrase that I felt was popular at this point that Shein wasn’t pulling into the top 10 search results. I mean, they are using data to steer customers to buy stuff. It’s very smart, except for the part for how it totally sucks. and to be blunt. But

I do, like I try to get into a head space when I think about Shein and people, the popularity of Shein and how hard it is to break people’s bad habit, which we’re gonna talk about at length today. And because I’ve never been a Shein customer, I have to go back in the mental archives to when I used to go to Forever 21 every week. And it was a similar thing where I couldn’t believe how cheap the clothes were. And there was also like this acknowledgement when you shopped there that anything you bought wasn’t gonna last very long. But if you got one full night out in an outfit, well then you got your money’s worth because it wasn’t made to last and everybody knew that and it was okay because it was about this idea of more and more, lots of stuff, lots of newness, very little repeat. I mean this is like the dawn of like. the Instagram era, you know, where we’re just like, we have to wear lots of new stuff all the time. And back then, I will say like the information that was available around who made these clothes, why these clothes being so cheap was a problem, that didn’t really exist in a large scale way. And so many customers were just, they were operating blindly. But now we live in a time where this stuff is so much more apparent. We know now more than ever the impact of these low, low prices on humans. We know the impact of this overconsumption on the planet. And yet, Xi’an just keeps growing and growing. And to me, there’s always this disconnect, which is what we’re going to talk about today. Gen Z cares about these issues. Gen Z is supposed to be the most woke generation ever. You know, like a refreshing update to all us millennials who basically are the fast fashion generation. And yet Gen Z is fueling Shein and probably all these other, like, how do you say it, Temu, like, and AliExpress, you know, and dupes that you can buy from all these rando places all over the internet, shopping even weirder fast fashion on TikTok. I mean, that is being fueled by Gen Z. Yes, there are millennials, there are Gen Xers, they might even be boomers buying this stuff, but for the most part, these sales are being driven by younger people. So I don’t know if we’re gonna have an answer today, but I would like us to try to figure out why is Gen Z doing that?

Danielle:

It is, it is a question I have been pondering, researching, talking with many Gen Z-ers, since that is the target audience and the main percentage of our customer base or community on Teleport, of what is driving this paradox of Gen Z saying that they care about sustainability, they’re really interested in thrifting, they love the Depops and Poshmarks of the world, and yet they are driving fast fashion. purchases on Shien, on Temu, elsewhere, a lot also then accelerated by social media. So what’s happening here? How can you have this paradox of holding both at the same time? And in digging into it and many conversations and social listening into different communities about this, the conclusion that I’ve come to is it’s a both and. At the end of the day, Gen Z wants cute clothes that are on trend. at very affordable prices. And you can either do that by buying fast fashion, or you can do that by thrifting. And some aspects are easier than others, which is why they can be both. But at the end of the day, it comes down to on-trend affordable clothes. So how do we help more consumers make that shift to secondhand is what I am utterly obsessed with. because I do think there will be a tipping point and aha moment. If we can introduce more younger consumers to secondhand quality fashion, where they will realize, oh my goodness, like real leather or this handmade quality garment that’s vintage, that’s lasted already for years. It’s going to last another 40 years and it’s super unique. It’s more sustainable. They feel really good about where they’re putting their dollar. But understanding that the secondhand shopping experience, whether in real life or online, is not as easy and it’s not as fun as buying new. And that’s a big problem that we need to solve.

Amanda:

Yeah, agreed. I think that is a big part of the problem. And when we talk about millennials still continuing to shop fast fashion, which plenty of millennials still are, it is sort of similar in that it’s like, oh, I want to do the right thing. But convenience and price. Kind of trump everything else, you know,

Danielle:

Yes, and I’m coming from Amazon fashion. So I know he customer appetite and demand at this point for convenience and low prices and having a vast assortment

of products, brands to choose from, to really have a place that can cater to every single style, every single body shape, price point. I think what’s so interesting about Gen Z is, in contrast to millennials, they are living their lives more online and feel more like themselves online than any other generation. So I came across some research by Ogilvy and they basically found that Gen Z, almost half of them, say that they feel more like themselves online than in real life. And that is different than millennials, Gen X, boomers. For example, boomers, 75% say, of course they feel more like themselves in real life. And less than 10% say they feel like themselves more online. And I think it really gets to this, this changing of the guard and that when you can unlock niche online communities, you can train your algorithm to show you your very specific, special interests and what is interesting or alluring to you. You can open up your world beyond just your physical one. And When you’re growing up with that, like you’re two years old and you’ve got an iPad, you know how it works, which is almost Gen Z have been at this point.

Amanda:

Yeah.

Danielle:

Then it’s just a very different mindset and experience where you’re discovering new products, you’re discovering new communities, you’re shopping more online than in person in physical environments. And that changes your mindset. And I’m positive it changes your brain chemistry too. And just in terms of the dopamine, the… of development of your sense of self and identity. It’s just a very different world than even I as a millennial grew up in and I had internet access as a young kid and still don’t feel as digitally native as my Gen Z cousins, nieces, nephews.

Amanda:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s really interesting. And I think you are right about something where shopping online does kind of change your brain chemistry and what shopping is for your brain. Thinking about when you have to go shop in real life, it’s such a slower process. And the dopamine hits don’t come as fast or as easily because you might go into the fitting room with 20 things and try it on and walk out with nothing, but feel like just monumentally depressed. I’ve had those shopping experiences, right? And when you shop online, that part just comes later, you know, after the excitement of shopping.

Danielle:

I think online too, something that Shein and others honestly do get right is they are serving up the most idealized, perfect looking view, like the Instagram ready view of that item.

Amanda:

Yeah.

Danielle:

And a lot of it is crazy photoshopped and not realistic, but it’s selling you something. It’s selling you, if you buy this bodycon dress, you’re gonna look like this hourglass shape, even

if you don’t actually have. an hourglass shape and it’s telling that story for you versus when you are at a physical store or you’re at the thrift store. You have to do a lot of that imagining for yourself and that is a skill that I think if you have not been doing this for a long time is not as developed as it being served on a platter for you

Amanda:

Yeah.

Danielle:

online because no one looks like that in real life. without a ton of filters and other work done. But it feels like if I buy this dress for $7, somehow I will unlock a piece of that. That’s what they’re being sold.

Amanda:

Yeah, they definitely are. I mean, I will say, Shein has come a long way because when it first launched, half of their photography was stolen from other sites and it looked very

unreliable and now it is so polished, but it feels real. It feels disturbingly real. You know, and you’re like, oh, that definitely is how that garment looks on that person for sure, right? And then I have no doubt. I remember… It was very common, like a few years ago, for people to buy something from Shein and post a hilarious photo of what it looked like, IRL versus the photo, right? But you don’t see that happening in the same way anymore. And the photos are even more like just on point. I mean, they do a lot of things well

Danielle:

And it’s tapping into this Instagram culture of looking pixel perfect of always having a new outfit. And I came across this that a year or so ago that really was shocking to me and I have not been able to get out of my head. And it found that one in seven fashion shoppers in the US thinks that it’s a faux pas to be photographed in the same item more than once. So this idea that, oh, I have this beautiful dress, I wore it to a friend’s wedding, but because I had photos and I put them on Instagram, or I didn’t OOTD on TikTok with that dress, I can never show my face in it again. I can never wear it and be photographed again. And that was like, whoa, that is a different perspective on the role of clothes in a social media first experience in a more digitally native experience because then the clothes are not really meant to be held onto. You’re not intending to keep them for very long. And that’s where I think for Gen Z, more than 80% of them consider the resale value of an item before they purchase it, because they’re expecting at some point to pass it on, hopefully in a responsible way, reselling it, swapping it, upcycling it, maybe donating it, anything but. Trashing it is the goal, but that over 80% are factoring that in before buying.

Amanda:

I mean, and to me, okay, that’s like a silver lining, but of course, when we, when we dig down into it, there’s still a major impact of that over consumption. Even if someone else wears it again, you know, we’ve got all the shipping and movement around and just the fact that all those clothes that nobody really needed were made in the first place. I do feel glad that secondhand shopping is normalized and reselling your clothes is normalized. Like that to me is a huge leap forward. But I do notice, just based on some of the Facebook groups I belong to for specific brands, that people really use resale as a way of sort of maintaining their cash flow at this point so that they can buy more stuff.

Danielle:

cash flow and I think in some ways it’s treated as a medium to long-term rental.

Amanda:

Yeah.

Danielle:

So in rental fashion, you know this, you often get it for a specific event, a wedding, other event, and you have it for a shorter period of time, a few days, a week, maybe two weeks. But with this resale mindset, a lot of it is, okay I’m gonna buy it, maybe I’ll wear it a few times, and there’s less of an attachment. to that specific item and how to mix and match it, how to really make it last in your wardrobe and style, because you know you can probably easily sell it somewhere.

Maybe you’re not gonna get 80 plus percent of what you paid for it, but you know you can recoup some of the costs when you’re ready to pass it on. And more and more sites make it super easy to just get it out of sight, out of mind.

And that’s where I think the thredUP clean out bags or four days bags come in. donating comes in where it’s just, it’s not here anymore. It went to somewhere else and I feel pretty good about it just being gone. Even if I’m going to get pennies on the dollars for the resale.

Amanda:

Right, yeah, I think it is a lot like rental. The company I worked for before the pandemic was really trying to make focus on renting day-to-day clothing. So it was a lot of fast fashion actually that we were buying and people were renting. And the primary, I mean, there were a lot of issues we ran into there, but one was that sometimes, or no, often the clothes wouldn’t survive another rental.

We would send stuff out to people for a month, and then they could swap their bag and get a new bag, or they could pay extra to swap that bag sooner. And we had a lot of people who would swap after two weeks, but a lot of the clothes were coming back in a state that they couldn’t survive another wash, another rental. And that was sort of like, I don’t know, the Achilles heel of that model. I’m sure they’re still trying to figure it out, but that. there were certain brands, which I won’t name here, but we couldn’t even rent them out more than once. Like they would just be damaged immediately.

Danielle:

Oh wow.

Amanda:

Yeah, and these are brands that people know that are very desirable that I see focused very heavily on Poshmark and all the other resale platforms. And I’m like, oh man, how did that person, when I see someone selling something from like those brands on Poshmark, I’m like. How did they get it to last to resell it? You know?

So I do think you’re right that a lot of people are viewing this as like it’s a temporary thing in and out of your life. And you know, once again, it’s great that it’s gonna go to another home rather than like with millennials where you would buy this stuff at Forever 21 knowing that it wasn’t gonna last very long. When you were done with it, you would just drop it off at the goodwill or throw it in the trash. So that is an improvement, but it’s sort of like we haven’t, we haven’t like fixed the core behavioral issue, right?

Danielle:

And the core behavioral issue I have a lot of empathy for is when you’re young and your body’s changing, you’re trying to figure out your personal style. You don’t have a ton of disposable income yet. I just have great empathy for those people, most of whom are young women, preteen, teen, college age girls. And if you love fashion, you’re kind of in a tough spot because you can’t buy investment pieces, you either don’t have the funds, or you don’t really know if that’s what you want to put your money into, like putting all of your eggs in that basket.

And so I think when it comes down to micro trends and the role of fast fashion and kind of the churn that goes through Gen Z’s closets, I just have a lot of empathy for that because I do think that experimenting with your personal style. is the only way to really cultivate it. And that takes time, it takes energy, it takes money. And I would rather they try to do that through secondhand pieces than new items.

But I’m also more of a realist when it comes to sustainable fashion.

Because I think shaping people I’ve seen, especially on the internet, is not

a sustainable way. to shift mindset. It’s just a way to have people dig in their heels and become very defensive.

Amanda:

Yes.

Danielle:

I’ve read thousands of comments and engagements online from Shien shoppers and they are legitimately the most defensive and vocal about their shopping behaviors more than any other fast fashion brand. Forever 21,

Amanda:

Yeah.

Danielle:

ASOS, Zara, it’s when it comes down to it Shien shoppers are… consistently the most defensive and engaged online. And it’s really getting to this, when fashion is a part of your self-expression identity, and social media, you feel that pressure to keep up and to be on trend and to have the right look and to be a part of that kind of status and group. I just have empathy for it, even if I don’t necessarily think it’s the right thing to do.

Amanda:

Oh, totally, I think there is so much pressure to wear something new all the time, to always be trendy or ahead of it. I mean, even all the years I worked in the fashion industry, I felt this extreme pressure to always wear something new and always have it be cooler than what anybody else was wearing. It was like my job depended on it. And when you are younger, it’s like your place in society feels like it depends on it, you know?

Danielle:

I resonate with that.

Amanda:

Right, right? And so like, that’s why I am like, I totally get it. I do, I think I agree with you that like, the people defending Shein are perhaps the most passionate and I understand why. And I also will say that if Shein had been around when I was in my twenties, I absolutely would have been buying from Shein all the time. Like to be clear, 100%. That’s why I was buying Forever 21 clothes. I didn’t have a lot of money. but I certainly felt that pressure to always wear something new and look cool. You know, that’s how I was going to meet friends or fit in or date people or whatever I thought was going to happen. But I felt, it’s not even like I thought anything was going to happen, but I felt like I had to do it to exist in the world.

Danielle:

I mean, how many times did I beg my parents or use my allowance, babysitting money to go by what I now look back at Abercrombie as atrocious decisions? Like, why was the zipper length on these low, low rise jeans literally like three quarters of an inch?

Amanda:

Yeah, exactly.

Danielle:

Why did it even need a zipper? What was it zipping up?

Amanda:

Oh my god, I’m like shuddering over here. I remember these jeans way too well and how I don’t like I would ride my bike in those ultra low rise jeans. How did I do that?

Danielle:

I don’t know. And the Y2K resurgence that I’m seeing among Gen Z, younger shoppers is so fascinating. It’s so fun. And also like flabbergasting

I lived through it. You know, I have the receipts. I made a few videos on TikTok showing my actual videos from when I was a teenager wearing these outfits.

And it’s like very similar to what they wanna wear now, which if they can thrift it. all power to them.

Amanda:

Yeah.

Danielle:

But what I find is so interesting of wanting to buy fast fashion that’s Y2K-esque when I’m like, there’s millions of real Y2K clothes out there.

Amanda:

Uh huh.

Danielle:

How do we unlock that access? Because these items are also way better quality and still pretty affordable compared to anything new that you’re going to find now.

Amanda:

I mean, it’s true. Say what you will about those Abercrombie jeans and they were like two-inch zipper or whatever. That was really nice denim. Like it lasted, right? And I do think like, you know, the Y2K era was sort of the last time in the century where clothes were pretty well made and accessible financially. And we definitely saw that, I mean, completely change in 2008. And I still think about like, for example, one that comes up to me a lot is Delia’s. because when I was a teenager, Delia’s was the coolest place that you could buy clothes and they were expensive, but they were really nice when you got them. And people, I still know people who have their Delia’s clothes from high school. But a few years ago, Dolls Kill bought the license for Delia’s and started making their own stuff. And at first I was like, okay, well, I hate Dolls Kill, but I do love Delia’s. So I ordered some stuff and it was hot garbage. Like it was defective, so disappointing. It was like crappy zippers that don’t zip up and down and like really bad, a really terrible bag that I just shouldn’t exist. And everything was just, it had that like air of disposability, but not necessarily the price point. And

I took a step back and I realized like, okay, well sure, these pants were also $48 in like 1997. but now they should be more like $100, and they’re still selling them at like 48 or 68 or something. I was like, this is such a clear illustration of how clothing has changed in my lifetime alone. And also, fun fact that I’ve been learning recently on Reddit is Dolls Kill really squashes resale of their products.

Danielle:

They do. Yes, there’s a lot of talk in reseller forums on Reddit and elsewhere about resellers’ accounts potentially being banned or at least warned if they’re trying to post Dolls Kill. And what’s so interesting is there’s this concept of the first doctrine, policy, and law when it comes to resale, that at least in the US, if you are the brand owner, you can’t tell someone who has purchased your item and later resold it, that they can’t do that unless there has been material and substantial kind of breach of that original brand IP and ownership. So this is where a lot of brands, especially luxury brands, try to find loopholes because many of them are very uncomfortable still with having their products be resold in secondhand channels. They don’t wanna own it, they don’t wanna participate in it, but they also wanna kind of ignore that it exists.

Amanda:

Right.

Danielle:

So these are, you know, you can think of some top luxury brands that are very litigious when it comes to resale, authentication, and those secondhand channels. But Dolls Kill is really interesting because I think they’re going after more of the IP side.

And so I can understand if people are reusing original product photography from their website, then yes, you shouldn’t do that. But I think that goes beyond that. cases. So I’ve been watching this. It’s super interesting to see what their endgame is because this policy has been litigated time and time again, and even the Chanel’s have lost, and they have, I’m sure, a lot bigger budget than Dolls Kill.

Amanda:

I would assume. Yeah, it’s interesting to me specifically Dolls Kill because the difference between Dolls Kill and Chanel, I mean, there are numerous differences. But one is that whether Dolls Kill wants to believe it or not, they really operate as a fast fashion brand. That’s what they’re selling. And they are really trying to sell in volume a lot of stuff that is not meant to be worn for extended periods of time. It is like… very much the definition of novelty outfits that you wear for one specific event. So it’s kind of like, just let people resell it, you know, because I think that they’re going to bring the money they make reselling it back to your website and buy from you again. So.

Danielle:

I think if they launched a branded resale program, it would be a different story, which to my knowledge, I don’t think that they have. A lot of other brands are doing this now. So they’re partnering with the Recurates or Treets or Archives, which are these new startups providing resale as a service infrastructure to support these branded resale programs. I think if that were an avenue, it would make more sense where they really wanted to consolidate, have a more consistent brand experience resell secondhand. But the goal of just saying like, you can’t do this, which essentially means these items are destined for landfill is also not a good look.

Amanda:

It is not a good luck.

Danielle:

I don’t really don’t understand what the end game is here. They could be spinning this in a much more positive PR light, but they’re not.

Amanda:

Yeah, I think it is a very bad look. I would assume at this point that the majority of their customer base is Gen Z and younger millennials who care about resale and do care about sustainability issues. And so I will also just preface this by saying, I recognize that perhaps Styles Kill doesn’t really care about things being a good or a bad look based on multiple things that have happened over the past few years with them. But it is. It is a. strange thing to stick to. I guess I just like, it is a very strange decision. I definitely went down a Reddit rabbit hole about this last week because I just was like, I can’t believe this. Like this must be a mistake because why would they do this? This is such a bad look, you know?

Danielle:

It’s giving early 2010s when the Poshmarks and Depops and ThredUps of the world started popping up or kind of, I call it like resale 2.0 because in 1.0 it was the eBay’s and Craigslist’s of the world, which proved out that people would buy used stuff from strangers on the internet, which now, now we look back and we’re like, of course it’s totally normal. But 20 years ago it was not.

It was. hyper local, it was very inefficient, like classified ads. I’m sure Gen Z was like, what the hell is that? So it’s evolved tremendously over the last 10 to 20 years, where I think we’re getting more to a resale 3.0, where brands are finally coming around, wanting to get more involved because they can see resale is. in demand among Gen Z, among millennials who are coming more into spending power, who care about sustainability, who also push out more affordably. And if you can do it in a more branded experience where there’s less risk or perceived risk, that’s a win-win for multiple players, but not all brands are on board yet. I think what the research from Thread Up and their annual research, resale report and others are basically saying now. most brands realize they have to get into it. It’s just a matter of how exactly and in what shape and form.

Amanda:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, it’ll be interesting to see what plays out with Dolls Kill, because I think this conversation has been just picking up momentum. And I could see them kind of being forced to change their stance on that very, very soon. I hope. Like I said, I read all these posts on Reddit, and I was like, someone must be confused, because why would Dolls Kill do that anyway?

Danielle:

I don’t know.

Amanda:

It’s so weird.

Danielle:

I really don’t. I think what’s so interesting about newer brands too is the realization that most clothes now, especially most clothes that Gen Z has access to are made of polyester and other relatively lower quality materials. And so I got kind of some pushback on Twitter a few months ago when I had this tweet that went viral where I basically said that Gen Z doesn’t even know what quality fashion looks or feels like.

And I explained, explained the why of it and saying, this is not a, this is not a blame game. These are just the facts.

Amanda:

Yeah.

Danielle:

It’s around accessibility and price point size inclusivity, especially of many brands that are not size inclusive. It’s around dupe culture and whole culture, but it also is around the fact that most clothes, 60 plus percent made now. are polyester, a polyester blend. And so many younger consumers literally don’t own anything that is not in part made of polyester. Like they’ve never felt or owned or worn clothes made of real silk, cotton, leather, linen. Like I saw this at Amazon where it was working on a brand and product development and the brand managers were working on this linen product. these beautiful linen pants for summer, and all of these customer reviews were coming in, like, it’s so wrinkly, why is it so wrinkly? I’m like, oh my gosh, they don’t realize that that’s linen, like linen is going to wrinkle, and it’s not going to be the type of like stretchy, unwrinkly material that polyester is. So it’s kind of eye opening of how much education and terminology needs to be learned, but if… More than half of what you have access to of what is being made doesn’t include any of that and you don’t have exposure to it. How else are you going to learn about it other than through mostly secondhand and vintage?

Amanda:

Yeah, it’s so funny that you would bring up linen because I was in an Instagram group for a brand where the brand itself had said, like, listen, we’re trying to move away from rayon because of the environmental and human impact of rayon productions. We’re shifting into linen and they were very excited about it. I was personally excited about it. And people were like, ugh, how do we get them to stop making linen? It’s like so wrinkly. and it’s not as soft as rayon, it doesn’t drape the same way. And I was like, oh my God, we have all been ruined. Like I remember the moment in my career where we started to shift into synthetics and we really thought it was gonna be a temporary thing until the, it was totally a result of the recession. And we really thought that we would move away from that when the recession ended because customers wouldn’t really like it, you know? And that they would want the nice fabrics back as their finances improved. But. No one cared. People were like, yeah, whatever. They didn’t know. And polyester production has gotten really, really smart in terms of how deceptive it can be and the different hand feels and textures and weights. And before you know it, you go into a store and everything is polyester. So I do think that you’re right. I can’t imagine being 22 years old, growing up only in this century and only knowing synthetic fabrics at this point. It’s pretty wild.

Danielle:

That’s right.

Amanda:

It’s wild.

Danielle:

That’s right. And that’s why I think terms that are like vegan leather

Amanda:

Uhhh…

Danielle:

are so confusing to many younger consumers because there’s also been this wave of kind of organic, vegan, greenwashing of it sounds better for you and it sounds more sustainable. But in reality, vegan leather in a lot of ways is suboptimal because it’s basically plastic.

It’s typically polyurethane. and it’s definitely not as durable. It’s not going to last 50 years like a real leather jacket will because leather is from an animal. It has been processed and tanned and treated to last like forever, at least 100 years potentially, for a quality leather jacket. But if you’re used to a $20 vegan leather item from a fast fashion brand, and then you have to buy a $50 leather jacket, like you’re gonna choose the $20 one because you also don’t understand the durability and quality difference. And you definitely can’t tell that necessarily online, especially if you’re only gonna wear that item for one Instagram photo.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah, the quality doesn’t matter. The longevity doesn’t matter. And that’s also just like the cultural moment that we live in right now is everything feels ephemeral. It’s just about today. Okay, so let’s talk about what does Gen Z care about? Like, what are their priorities?

Danielle:

Gen Z, yeah, so Gen Z, and just to kind of give more context on that, Gen Z born between around 1996 to 2012. So a lot of people think, oh, Gen Z are just like 12 year olds on the internet. The oldest Gen Zers will turn 30 in three years. In 2026, they will be 30 and they will be coming into more spending power, into more of owning and building their careers. And they’re about 20% of the U S population, about a quarter of the global population, and many of them have been coming of age. You think about the last few years of COVID time of significant uncertainty, instability, chaos, potential recession, you know, just a lot of change and rapid change while at the same time, living their lives online, being those digital natives. having access to fast fashion more than ever. And so there’s this paradox again, that we come back to of caring about sustainability, about spending on brands that share their values, their purposes, their mission, but also having limited spending power currently.

And so there’s this trade off that I find so interesting where it’s kind of split down the middle when business of fashion. did research on Gen Z fashion shoppers, they’ve basically found half and half. 40% had a very unfavorable or unfavorable view of fast fashion, and the other 40% had a very favorable or favorable view of fast fashion. And it gets again to that point of, it’s like this love-hate relationship where I wanna be supporting more sustainable, more secondhand options, but. I feel this allure, this pressure, especially from social media, to keep up, to look a certain way, to buy a certain way. And so what do you do? And I think that’s where I, again, am really focused on, of making the resale experience, the thrifting online experience, be 10 times better because it’s not good. Like to be very fair, it’s not good. It’s definitely not good enough. to make it the first choice among consumers.

Amanda:

Yeah, I can agree with that. I mean, some platforms are better than others, but we have so far to go to have the ease and availability, the assortment that someone like Shein has on one website. Right now, you have to look everywhere.

Danielle:

Another interesting point is for Gen Z-ers, the research is showing they have less qualms around buying dupes or fake items. And I remember growing up in early 2000s and really caring more about fashion, what brands were cool and in, that if you had a fake Kate Spade bag, you would feel a bit ashamed of that. compared to other people who had the real thing or a real coach bag or a real Tiffany’s charm bracelet versus like the dupe, which we just called fake back then. That wasn’t, didn’t sound as cool.

But what we’ve seen now for Gen Z, more than half say it’s morally acceptable to buy fake goods, fake luxury goods even, over a third say that they would wear a fake item, a dupe, and it’s very accessible, where fast fashion brands definitely rip off directly indie designers, other high-end designers, but they also create lookalike products that are substitutes enough to have the general vibe of whatever it’s knocking off. So it gets to this point too, of you don’t have to actually save up to access that coveted more expensive item. You can find the dupe, and there’s hundreds, thousands of accounts on TikTok you can find easily that are all dedicated to finding this Aritzia dupe, this Bottega dupe, whatever dupe.

Amanda:

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. No, it’s so true. And I do think Shein and AliExpress and all these other platforms have really made it easier to access these dupes because I will tell you, being a buyer in fast fashion for my entire career, we were copying stuff constantly, but there was so much fear of legal ramifications that it always had to be changed just a little bit, right? Or we couldn’t quite hit it. by making enough changes to make it not a legal issue, sometimes those styles would just fall apart, or we would make enough changes, but they wouldn’t resonate with the customer in the same way. And so it was very difficult because of the fear of being taken to court, or at least getting a cease and desist and having to destroy all that inventory. But Shein and these other platforms, they operate in this legal gray area where they can… directly copy something and nothing is really gonna happen. You know, like, of course we just had a lawsuit filed, was it last week, that could be the beginning of a shift, but I don’t know because, you know, she in itself even, you know, they know that they’re copying things, so they’ll just make a couple hundred units and see what happens. Do people buy it?

Do they have to pull it? No big deal if they do because it was such a small order. If people buy it and they don’t get called out. they will make 20 more iterations. And so I often, a lot of the haul videos that I see are hauls of dupes of a specific brand. You know, like it’s not uncommon to see someone buy six dupes of like a selkie dress from AliExpress and show them all. And they are all different from the original, but not like, oh, we’re changing it for legal purposes, more like, this is what we can make at that price point, you know?

Danielle:

Right, right.

Amanda:

Yeah, and they’re all

Danielle:

I

Amanda:

also

Danielle:

think

Amanda:

tiny.

Danielle:

that’s where,

Amanda:

That’s the other thing is they’re all really tiny. Ha ha ha.

Danielle:

that’s right. I think that a lot of it comes from a misunderstanding of how much clothes should cost.

Amanda:

Yes.

Danielle:

In Millennials, Gen Z, we have been trained from fast fashion that clothes should be incredibly low prices, like single digit dollars for a dress for a whole outfit potentially. And a lot of that has warped our expectation then and acceptance of mid tier premium luxury brands charging a lot more from that. And I saw this recently, this example where. And Artisan on TikTok creates these incredibly delicate hand beaded bags. So these tiny glass beads that she spends like 20 plus hours on per bag, constructing a beautiful mosaic of faces. So you can think about almost like someone painting the different shades and shadows of a human face on a canvas.

She’s doing that with tiny, tiny glass beads, one at a time, like really a work of art. And the bags cost several thousand dollars, like equivalent to a luxury handbag.

And people immediately in the comments were like, this is too much money. This is a ripoff. Where can I find the dupe? And I feel for these artisans because I think they really treat it more as art first than as just a consumable fashion item.

Amanda:

Right.

Danielle:

But of course people are enthralled with it. It’s beautiful. It’s unique and they want access to it. And they’re not used to. being told no, that they can’t find some cheaper dupe, when it’s probably only a matter of time that style gets knocked off by a fast fashion brand. But it’s this expectation of no way am I gonna spend $50 for XYZ item, I wanna spend $5 for that item. And you can probably find that through fast fashion.

But my hypothesis is you could probably find something equally on style, on trend, and higher quality if you can get it secondhand. It’s just the fragmented supply, the lack of tooling and higher, and the better experience of shopping secondhand online is really a barrier for a lot of people.

Amanda:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree with that. It’s just so much time. And I mean, like, if I am looking for specific, I need something specific, I have to go and look like five different platforms. You know?

Danielle:

That’s right. I think the, that is part of it too, where, uh, you know, for my time at Amazon learned that for most online e-commerce sites, it is still primarily search driven. You have a specific idea in mind or maybe a brand product that you’re specifically looking for. We call it spearfishing, but for fashion, a lot of it is more emotionally driven, browse driven. purchasing. And so you are in more of a discovery mindset, unless you have that specific item in mind. But if you are young, you’re figuring out your style, maybe you’re shopping for an event, but you kind of need to narrow that down, you’re going to be more in a browse driven expectation. And most sites are not currently prepared for that.

Amanda:

No.

Danielle:

I would say she and others are getting more to that, because they understand that you’re not searching for a puff. sleeved empire waist a line dress like a selfie dress. You’re searching for a coquette Lana Del Rey core dress or

Amanda:

Totally,

Danielle:

something like

Amanda:

totally.

Danielle:

that.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, and they do nail it there too. Also, all of these platforms, resell platforms, just have the worst search anyway. It’s so frustrating in the first place, but then yeah, like that they don’t really understand, like they don’t have the tags in place to really speak to these

Danielle:

Yeah.

Amanda:

micro trends that exist right now and that are constantly, new ones are constantly arriving, right? So something that we talked about when we were preparing for this is like, what about these so-called sustainable brands, right? It doesn’t seem to me, I mean, I don’t really shop from a lot of the big sustainable brands because they just aren’t my aesthetic, I’m not interested, but it seems like Gen Z is incredibly disinterested in these brands. What are your thoughts on that?

Danielle:

When it comes to more sustainable, better for you branding, I think I’ve seen it work more for skincare brands

Amanda:

and I’ll see you next time.

Danielle:

catering to Gen Z than to fashion. And I think the reality is for fashion, for a brand to be quote sustainable, to have that be a core part of their positioning and their product, it’s going to be more expensive. And… It’s not an area that they can really compete in, which is why I think, unfortunately, over the last few years, we’ve seen more and more of these sustainable fashion brands, many of which are women owned, locally made, go out of business, which is really sad because I loved many of these brands, but they weren’t as accessible or the styles were not as appealing to a younger generation. who is not willing to spend that much on clothes.

Unless it’s a very status signaling item, or they have a collector mindset for a specific bag, a specific brand, they’re not gonna be spending hundreds of dollars, even like 50 plus dollars on most items.

Amanda:

Yeah, no, agreed, agreed. I think that is one of the biggest obstacles there, but I also think there is sort of a trend slash aesthetic obstacle as well, because you’re not gonna find Lana Del Rey Coquette Corp as one of these brands,

Danielle:

Hahaha!

Amanda:

or Barbie Corp, or Dark Academia, or whatever has come and gone, all these micro trends. Those brands don’t really speak to that, because they’re not about micro trends. They’re about more longevity, right? timeless appeal,

Danielle:

rate.

Amanda:

you know? And that makes them more appealing to older customers. And then the price point ensures that it’s older customers. You know, and if I were

Danielle:

That’s right.

Amanda:

25, I wouldn’t be buying any of those brands either. Like once again, no judgment against Gen Z because I know if I were 25 right now, I would be buying something from Shein like every other day. You know, like that’s just like what it is to be at that phase in your life and for that to be your best option. You know, for many

Danielle:

Exactly.

Amanda:

people, fast fashion is the best option right now. And it’s unfortunate.

Danielle:

That’s right. I think the expectation that if you’re 25 or let’s say you’re 15 even,

Amanda:

Okay.

Danielle:

and that you are gonna have these very considered purchases that you’ve done research, you’ve saved out for it. Like, let’s be real in that these are teenagers and younger people who, why are we making those expectations on them when- It’s more of how do we address the people who are the 80% or the 20% of people who are contributing 80% of the holes, the overconsumption, the influencing related to that. I think for the average consumer buying a few fast fashion pieces to fill gaps in their wardrobe, to fulfill a certain aesthetic, that is a totally different customer that we’re talking about compared to someone who every month, every week is buying another haul from these fast fashion brands.

Amanda:

Yeah, totally. I agree. And I mean, then there’s a lot of that. Every time I post on Instagram that on average Americans buy 70 new garments each year, people freak out and they’re like, how is that possible? And I’m like, are you kidding me? It’s like so easy.

Danielle:

It’s so easy, And even as a thrifter, I have to very measurably, mindfully, not buy everything

that I see when it’s like, oh, this is cute, or this is super unique, or this is a great deal. I really still have to catch myself and say, do I actually like this? Do I need it?

Amanda:

Yeah.

Danielle:

Will I wear it? How am I going to style this? And even though I know I could. easily resell it on Teleport on anywhere else. I still want to make sure that I’m not just buying for the sake of buying because I have now after 12 years of not buying any newly made clothes just secondhand gotten to the point where I’ve kind of like trained my brain to appreciate discovering having that treasure hunt of an item thrifting

without having to buy it. Like I don’t have to own something anymore. in order to appreciate it and to enjoy that item. I can just find it, see how beautifully it was made or how cool it is. I can go down my little rabbit hole and research the item and the cute little vintage brand tag. I can do all of that without having to actually own that item and spend money on that item.

But it’s definitely taken me time because in my early 20s, oh my goodness, I would go to my local Salvation Army or Goodwill. on what was then 69 cent Saturdays.

They don’t do this anymore, but the color of the week would be 69 cents. And I would buy the most horrendous looking vintage dresses like 80s puff sleeve, shoulder pads, like drop waist, polyester satin type clothes.

And I would upcycle them because I wanted to learn how to sew. And I thought this would be a good way where I can have fabric sustainably. And if I mess up, like not a big deal. But that was my creative outlet when I was starting my first corporate job. And I was like at a computer at a desk all day and needed a way to like decompress and feel creative on the weekends.

Amanda:

That’s awesome, man, you just took me back. I just remember going and I would feel like an entire cart. Like anything that was remotely interesting, I would buy. And that’s the thing is like, I mean, you know, we both know you can over consume secondhand stuff too. And learning to stop that is work also, you know? So I never feel like people should be like shifting their shea and habit into shopping secondhand. but there are things that have to happen in tandem to change our relationship with clothes in the first place. And with stuff,

Danielle:

That’s right.

Amanda:

right? It’s actually like a lot of work because whether we realize it or not, we have been trained our entire lives to believe that something new is always gonna make you feel better, that it’s good to have new things all the time, that the more stuff you can buy, the better. There’s this idea of like more, you know, like. something I’ll notice is like someone will go onto, you know, Aliexpress or Shein and buy six silky dupes for one dress, right? They get the six dupes and they just spend as much money as they would have spent on one of the real thing. And you have to ask like, did you need that many dresses? Is that what the need was? Or would one of the real thing that actually checked all the boxes have been better? And these are the kind of questions we have to ask ourselves all the time. And I think that’s also That’s a sea change for many of us to say, oh, I don’t need more. I just need what I love, you know?

And I mean, it was a hard habit for me to break too. Like, oh, I would rather just go buy 50 things at the thrift store because they were all $1 instead of spending

Danielle:

Hahaha!

Amanda:

$50 on this one thing that I like really wanted. Do you know what I mean? It’s a hard habit.

Danielle:

I have to say that the one thing to be brutally honest, the one thing I cannot resist at the thrift store is a vintage wedding dress.

I’ve been married for over 12 years. I don’t need another wedding dress. But if I find a handmade vintage wedding dress at the thrift store and the state sale, I oftent imes will get it because I cannot emotionally deal with the reality that it will go to landfill. Like there was um Shop Goodwill which is Goodwill’s online auction site a few months ago. They had this item up for sale. There was like a lot of wedding dresses

Amanda:

Whoa.

Danielle:

and the picture was like a huge cardboard box filled to the brim literally overflowing with

wedding dresses. Some of which you could see had tags hanging off of them still. And I was like, should I get this?

Like, no, I don’t need this at all. But just the, when you know more,

sometimes it’s harder to take that step back. I feel like I can’t solve this very specific problem, even though I unfortunately know that 85% of all clothes are gonna end up in landfill. Most of the clothes that you donate to the thrift store are not gonna be sold. They’re gonna be shipped into bales and wholesale, sent off to the global south. polluting the world. Like it’s just, it goes on and on.

Amanda:

Right.

Danielle:

But for wedding dresses, there’s been two times over the last year that I have purchased a vintage wedding dress. Not for me, but just because I’m like, I know someone out there, this is their dream dress. And I just need to like be patient and wait until the universe brings me this person.

Amanda:

Right.

Danielle:

And like, I will sell it at cost just so like. that person can get a beautiful handmade item for like $40, whatever I paid for it. But that is my one thing that I really can’t resist.

Amanda:

Yeah, I can understand that. That’s a feeling I relate to. There are definitely a few things like that for me too. And like I said, it has been a change for me and like who I am to go to the thrift store and not just throw everything I like, I remotely like in the cart.

Danielle:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

And that, you know, like it’s not like I wasn’t pretty much engaging in the same behavior if I went to Forever 21. Like it’s, you know, like.

Danielle:

Oh, I throw it in the cart, Amanda. I throw it in the cart

Amanda:

And then you sort at

Danielle:

and

Amanda:

the

Danielle:

then

Amanda:

end,

Danielle:

I,

Amanda:

yeah.

Danielle:

and then I will sort it. And I was just, I made a video for tech talk the other day about this, where I had probably 20 items in the cart and I ended up with one

Amanda:

Yeah.

Danielle:

and just to normalize that you can whittle it down for each item, consider, do I really like this? Does it fit? Is there a place for this? Do I have something pretty much the same? And I’m just enthralled by a good deal.

Amanda:

Yes.

Danielle:

and ending up with the one thing. And it was a 50 cent little pink hat, like what the British would wear to a royal wedding, this

Amanda:

ooooh

Danielle:

cute little hat, and I’ll wear it to the Barbie movie.

Amanda:

Yeah, no, I mean,

Danielle:

Because where else am I gonna wear this?

Amanda:

we definitely, my husband and I, we are both very avid thrifters, and there’s always the moment of truth. We go somewhere kind of adjacent to the cash wrap, but not, and we start sorting through these things and discussing them and making difficult decisions. And yeah, it’s actually, I don’t know, in a weird way, it’s kind of like the most fun part of it all, to really make sense of it. But I…I didn’t always have such a clear filter and certainly neither did my husband. And when we’ve been in places where the thrifting is like really good, it’s been more challenging to make those decisions. When you’re like, yeah, but what if I never see this again? Like, I don’t, well, what’s your plan with it? You know, like that’s the hard part. It’s a really, a really hard part. And I would suspect it can be very similar when you’re shopping she-in and you’re just like, ah, But this is cute too, you know? And so it is,

because they’re gonna keep serving you what you like, and it gets really, really hard. So…

Danielle:

It gets to that mindset though, we talked about, do you have more of a consumer mindset where it’s just bye bye, you’re not really going to enjoy that item where it style it in new ways versus a collector? Because I think there are certain things where if you do love thrifting, you do love finding unique items for a collection. I think there is a place for that while still not dipping into over consumption

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Danielle:

because it’s just, it’s a different. way of acquiring something and then you’re likely going to retain it for a lot longer versus a consumption mindset. You’re buying it essentially to rent it and then get rid of it.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I really like thinking about it that way because I do think that is what the behavior is. And if only, I guess, just like resale, like you were saying, were even easier than it is right now. Because I think those things could move on to new homes even faster if it was easier to find the things that you like.

Thanks to Danielle for spending time with me! The second half of our conversation will be coming in two weeks because I’m taking next week off. Why? It’s my birthday! And I have plans to ride a swan boat, eat delicious food, and spend quality time with Dustin in Mexico City. It’s going to be a half birthday/half you quit your job celebration. In the mean time, you should definitely check out Teleport, which you can download in the app store of your choice. I really do think it checks a lot of boxes that the rest of the resale platforms just aren’t…well…checking! I can’t help but look at Poshmark and Depop as old school at this point, not unlike Forever 21 and Zara. And I’m excited to see what secondhand 3.0 looks like, with apps like Teleport leading the drive!

Alright, that’s all for this week. If you have thoughts about “ultra fast fashion,” why you opt for it or skip it, or how secondhand shopping could be better, tell us! You can drop me an email at [email protected] or you can even record a voice memo and send it to me that way!

You can also call the Clotheshorse hotline. I’ll leave that number in the show notes. I would love to include your thoughts in the second half of this series coming in two weeks. So don’t procrastinate.

As I said in my conversation with Danielle, if I were 15 or 20 or even 25 right now, and I didn’t know the things that I know…I would 100% be buying stuff from Shein. I would probably be buying dupes of Selkie dresses on AliExpress. It’s easy to be on an ethical high horse when you have a lot more life experience and knowledge, right? As I have said many times before, we have to meet people where they are. And help them find better options without shaming them, but rather understanding and supporting them. And yeah, that’s a challenge. So is changing our own habits, like understanding that MORE isn’t always better, that less can be more satisfying, that new stuff isn’t usually the solution to our problems, and that retail therapy is not…well, therapy. We’re working on this ourselves–I know I am–and I am excited for us to bring in more people to work on this alongside us. Remember, one person can’t change the world alone, but when we all work together as a community, as people supporting people, we CAN make some serious change in this world.