Episode 159: Examining The Ethics of Secondhand Resale (part 1) with Alex of St. Evens

Welcome to Clotheshorse, the podcast that is probably the president of The Dumb Mug Club.

I’m your host, Amanda and this is episode 159. This week’s episode is part one of a THREE episode series examining the ethics of secondhand resale. If you’ve spent any time on Instagram or social media in the past year or so, you’ve certainly seen this topic up for very heated debate. Fortunately, I’m not in this alone! I’ll be accompanied by the knowledgeable and highly organized Alex of St. Evens.

Most recently, it exploded out of social media into the rest of the internet when secondhand seller Jack (@jbwells2 on TikTok) became the focus of internet ire. She is a reseller who posts try-on videos of items that she will be listing for resale later. And social media just kinda exploded on her, comparing her to a landlord (yes, really), scalpers, accusing her of making the lives of poor people even harder, and just generally being a monster. The word “greedy” was thrown out there quite a bit. If you are unfamiliar with this story or need a refresher, I’ll share a link to catch up in the show notes.

But my immediate response to all of this controversy was “Why do we tend to turn on one another, rather than the larger systems and societal norms that are truly responsible?” People not being able to afford clothing is a large economic situation that is the result of our governments failing us time and time again, while allowing the wealthy to accumulate more and more wealth as the rest of us fall behind. The lack of “good” clothes (or so it seems) at the thrift stores are the direct result of a shitty industry that makes shitty clothing because it prioritizes profits over everything else. The list of bad systems is much longer than this and we will be touching on all of them over the next three episodes. But the moral of it all is this: there are no villains in this situation, except for wealth inequality and companies prioritizing profits over people and planet. Everyone involved in this controversy is just another person trying to get by and feel okay in a world that makes it really hard to get by and feel okay.

I had been thinking about doing an episode about this topic for a loooooong time. This is a complicated topic that requires far more nuance than anyone can achieve in an Instagram carousel or a TikTok clip. We’ve already touched on some of the arguments and aspects of the resale here on Clotheshorse in the past:

• The volume of product heading to thrift stores, overseas, and landfills each year.
• What it’s like to work in a thrift store
• The business model of the Goodwill and other thrift store chains
• The causes of rising prices at thrift stores

But these topics have been scattered across other episodes over the years. So I had been thinking about putting together a more comprehensive view of it all for new listeners or for those of you who want to send others to one place for this information. But honestly, I was afraid. Every time I post about shopping secondhand, the privilege of access to secondhand clothing, the truths about the thrift industry…well, I get bombarded with hate messages and shitty comments for weeks. When someone troll-y doesn’t get an immediate response, they continue to harass me for days until I finally block them. People fight in the comments, which is not dissimilar to coming over to my house to squabble with one another in my living room. Why? Because I have to witness the whole thing and it only exacerbates my anxiety. I am a very empathetic person and seeing people argue around me is very distressing. And this is just a lot of chaos and stress just for talking about secondhand shopping.

So I kept putting off an episode about all of this. But in February–when all of this stuff was hitting a fevered pitch on TikTok and IG–Alex of St. Evens approached me about working on something like this together. And I couldn’t say no to her! I knew she was the right partner for this.

We wanted to ensure that we were presenting all sides of the issue, so I did a series of posts on Instagram asking for submissions. The bad news is that the comments section disintegrated into a mosh pit by day three and late on a Saturday night I had to turn off comments on all of the posts. But the good news is that I received (literally) hundreds of thoughtful, insightful emails and audio messages. It was a lot of work to get through them all, but I read and listened to everything multiple times. You will find many of those thoughts throughout these three episodes. As I explained in the instructions in those posts, I only included messages received via email. So if you had a comment or a DM and don’t hear it, that’s why. I have found that transferring information from IG to the podcast has an added layer of labor for me, because I have to reach out to each commenter individually to get names and consent to participate in the podcast. When you’re dealing with more than 500 comments per post (that’s what was happening on these resale posts), it’s just way too much. Remember, I work a very demanding full time job to support myself and make Clotheshorse possible. Maybe someday Clotheshorse will make enough money to pay myself and an assistant, and then we’ll be able to do stuff like that comb through hundreds of IG comments.

In this three episode series, we will be examining the five major arguments thrown out there to argue for the unethical nature of secondhand resale:

• Thrift stores are designed to be a resource for low income people.
• Resellers are making tons of money from taking things that should be for low income people.
• Resellers are taking all of “the good stuff.”
• Resellers are responsible for rising prices at thrift stores.
• Resellers misrepresent what they’re selling, list things at wildly inflated prices, and overall behave miserably both online and in person.

I’ll just go ahead and admit that I am referring to these as myths throughout the episodes as we will be actively debunking them, while also digging into the incredibly complex nuance within each of these issues. Why do I call them “myths?” Because after many, many hours of research and reading regarding each of these, I can say that they are largely myths, or at the very least, over-simplifications of much more complex situations. And these issues encompass many other dark realities of living in late stage capitalism:

Why aren’t people being paid a living wage?

Why is housing so unaffordable?

Why is health care a luxury here in the US?

Why must education be a financial burden for the rest of our lives?

Why do so many of us have to work multiple jobs just to survive?

Why is the fashion industry making billions churning out clothes that are so low quality, no one wants to wear them for very long or buy them secondhand?

And that’s just the beginning of the issues we will be encountering along the way.

In this episode, we will be focusing on the first two myths:

Thrift stores are designed to be a resource for low income people.

Resellers are making tons of money from taking things that should be for low income people.

The intro segment for this episode will focus on the reality that many people have shifted their behavior from overconsuming fast fashion to overconsuming secondhand clothing.

The other myths on this list will be shared in the following episodes. I am repeating that again because there was some confusion during the laundry episodes, with listeners missing the message that it was a multi-episode series and sending me emails telling me what a disastrous job I had done by missing so many things. So I’m trying to do a better job of reiterating when a topic will be spread across several episodes.

Why is this a three episode series? Because there is a lot to consider here! None of these ideas are as simple, black/white as they appear on social media. There’s a lot to break down, research, and contemplate.

Now, there are going to be some ground rules for the next three weeks as we tackle this very huge subject:

I will be turning off comments on all IG posts about this topic. This is not to prevent conversations about it, but rather to preserve my mental health.

I will also be turning off DMs for the same reason.

If you want to share your opinion/additional thoughts on the subjects we cover in each episode, feel free to email me, whether it’s a typed out message or an audio recording. My email address is [email protected].

Please do not send me an email saying “you could have done a better job” or “I’m disappointed that you didn’t cover xyz” until after we have finished the three episodes because they are extremely comprehensive.

Remember: I’m a person. A person who already works hard to cope with my mental and physical health. I do all of this work for free and I largely lose money by creating all of this work. Please observe the same level of consideration for Alex.

I know that these topics feel huge, but we can’t let that make us forget that we are all people doing the best we can in a pretty stressful/scary/frustrating world. Thank you!

Amanda:

All right, Alex, do you want to remind everybody of who you are? I mean, you are a regular around here. You are a fan favorite, but just in case we have some new people or people who are bad at remembering names, which I am one of those people, even though I do know who you are.

Alex:

I am also very bad with names, so that is very fair.

Amanda:

Ha ha ha ha!

Alex:

My name is Alex. I am the owner of the vintage brand St. Evens. I have been very lucky to have been invited on Clotheshorse multiple times now to chat with you, Amanda. It’s always such a pleasure to be on. Yeah, I am on Instagram as @wear_st.evens. I am also on TikTok now.

So you guys can find me over there @wear_st.evens. I’m super excited to be having this convo with you.

Amanda:

Yeah, so today we’re having a pretty intense combo. It was something that I had been thinking about for quite a while and I, to be really honest, was like, I don’t know if I’m ready to do this on my own and I was

Alex:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

I was having a hard time seeing the path forward, but then you reached out to me and you said, listen, would you be interested in talking about this on Clotheshorse? So why don’t you tell me, tell everyone a little bit about like what motivated you to say, hey, we need to have a really large public conversation about the view of secondhand and resellers right now.

Alex:

Yeah, so, you know, as I’m sure most people have seen it, this is an ongoing discourse that kind of pops up online.

Amanda:

Yeah

Alex:

I feel like there will be like a big burst of conversation around it. It’ll show up on Instagram, it’ll show up on TikTok, and then, you know, it kind of goes away, but it keeps coming back. And

Amanda:

Mm-hmm.

Alex:

I feel like this most recent wave, I have just seen so much misinformation. And particularly, I have been seeing a lot of this on TikTok And I have to say, I’m a big fan of the platform, like as a whole. I am one of those people in their 30s that is super on board and spends a lot of time on there. I think that it has been really great for like spreading information, connecting people. I personally have learned so much from other creators on that app. However, it is a very restrictive platform in a lot of ways because I know that they’ve extended the video length now, but the videos are still relatively short.

The comments are also very short. You cannot leave a long comment on anything. So I feel like that really hinders discourse.

And I understand, you know, why they would have the platform set up that way. However, when it comes to really big topics like this, there is so much to talk about. And there are so many facets of this conversation that I found that there was just people were arguing or people would make a video or a post one point and then people would kind of derail the conversation about a different point entirely. And this is something that I’m personally really passionate about both as a seller and just a buyer, someone who cares about sustainability and wants to promote thrifting for everybody. And I kept trying to think of ways that I could enter the conversation in a productive way. So I kind of started to sit down and just like make notes of things that I was thinking of in different parts of the conversation that I didn’t necessarily see people addressing. And I was like, there’s so much to say here. Like, where do I start? Similarly, how you felt. It’s a very overwhelming topic.

I really wanted to make sure that I was figuring out a way to talk about it in a way that was very thorough and effective and helpful for people. And I was like, you know what? I feel like talking about this with Amanda would be the perfect way to do it.

Amanda:

Yeah, no, I mean, honestly, I don’t want to brag about us, but we are really the perfect pair of people to take this on because we are the sorts who will let no stone be unturned in trying to get to the bottom of something. And so this was definitely a massive undertaking. I posted about it on social media. We really wanted to get as many different views, stories, experiences as we could, and hundreds of messages came my way. It is something is on a lot of people’s minds.

Alex:

Mm-hmm

Amanda:

We also saw some things getting a little heated in the comments section on some of the Instagram posts, which makes me a little nervous for sure. But I also think that there is so much emotion involved in the state of second hand right now that I understand that feeling because there are so many things to be upset about right now, to be worried about right now, just in

General, you just have to kind of latch on to something to, I don’t know, to get your emotions in order, sort of. And I think in this one, there is a lot of misinformation involved. There is a lot of emotion involved. There’s a lot of frustration. There’s a lot of sexism. I could go on and on, but we’re gonna get to the bottom of what is really happening in the state of second hand right now, the supply of second hand, the pricing of second hand, because there is not a day that goes by that someone doesn’t DM me complain about thrift store prices.

And I’m excited to just debunk what’s going on with thrift store prices all at once, soI don’t have to repeat myself every day. Yeah, but definitely a big undertaking that I would say, the average episode of Clotheshorse probably takes eight to 10 hours of research and writing and prep to get together before we even record or edit. This was substantially longer. I mean, this was like many nights in a row of me just sitting in my computer from the moment I got home from work until it was time to go to bed. pulling all this together.

Alex:

Yes, it’s so funny because I know that people listening cannot see that we have multiple Google Docs in front of us, tha twe have lots and lots of notes and lots of statistics and information outlined just to make sure that we’re doing this in the best way possible. And before we do get into this conversation, I did actually just want to thank you. I know that by putting yourself out there with Clotheshorse and attaching your name to it, you don’t have a team and so you are the person that’s receiving the brunt of the feedback and you know unfortunately the backlash and I know that you’ve said you’ve received you know so many responses some of them not being positive um and listen I can imagine that that’s difficult for you um I know this is something you’re really passionate about but like it sucks when people are mean to you and I just really appreciate everything that you’ve done and I think a lot of your listeners And yeah, I just wanted to say thank you for like putting yourself out there in that way. I know that it can be difficult to do.

Amanda:

Thank you, Alex. You know, that is a lot of the labor that goes kind of unseen. And that really means a lot to me. That you just said that right here in front of everyone who’s listening. So here’s something I will tell you. When it came to Facebook, not Facebook, why am I talking about Facebook? I don’t even look at Facebook. The Instagram comments that I received in the comments section in the DMs, we got, there was some negative, sometimes just like really volatile stuff. But I will tell you, the vast majority of the emails and audio messages I received were really positive or just like really realistic but also positive or encouraging, but also worried. And just such a different tone and just so much nuance coming my direction from so many people, which I just really loved. And I know that taking the time to write down your thoughts or even take it to the next level and record yourself sharing those thoughts is a lot of work. And so I know all the people who contributed really care about this, care about this issue. I’m just so grateful for how much work the entire community put into this. So, should we get down to business here? I’m just so grateful for how much work the entire community put into this. So, should we get down to business here? I’m just so grateful for how much work the entire community put into this. So, should we get down to business here?

Alex:

Let’s get into it!

Amanda:

Okay, so I was telling you before we started recording that I had this, I don’t know, revelation in my early 20s where I was like, I don’t know if I can be an artist or succeed as an artist, because everything that has ever happened has already happened and every idea has already been ideated and like what is left to do, which is perhaps like so art school of me,

Alex:

Hehehe.

Amanda:

but I think it’s a common feeling that a lot of us get, especially

Alex:

Definitely.

Amanda:

creative people.

Alex:

Yes.

Amanda:

remember when I was a teenager and I would be like, you know, I don’t know, I asked someone out and they said no and I was really crushed about it and be like moping around all day, you know, my grandma would say, you know, the thing is this has been happening to people for centuries, it’ll be okay, right?

And you know, I was, well anytime I’m like seeing a big issue out in the world or a trend, honestly, I start to, I like to dig into like this trend has probably happened before. This controversy has probably happened before because I don’t know what it is about us humans, but we’re just like in a loop kind of, right?

Alex:

Oh yes, everything is a cycle.

Amanda:

Right, okay. So I wondered was a lot of the opinion or just statements we hear out there about thrifting, about secondhand, about reselling, was this perhaps something that had already happened before? Like, you know, let’s think about some of the arguments we hear out there to go around, that the resellers are taking all of the good stuff, that stuff is more expensive because of the resellers, you know, on and on and on, right? Like these are the things that we hear. And I just kind of wondered, you know, has this happened before? And so I went on such a deep dig. I mean, I’m, this was one of those moments where I was very grateful that I gifted myself a New York Times subscription because I was able to get into all their archives and just read article after article. So I want to get started. with an article from the New York Times called, Rags to Riches. And I’m gonna read you a quote from an actual thrift store owner.

“Okay, we used to buy dresses for 50 cents and overcoats for $2. Then everybody found out about it. Every hippie who finally decided he had to support himself went into the second hand clothing business. It was natural for them, but it was the beginning of the end for me.” And I just was like, wow, this could, like when is this article from? 1978.

Yep. And it tapped into a growing concern of the late 70s, the gentrification of thrifting.

Alex:

Yup, not new.

Amanda:

Yeah, according to the New York Times that year, the middle class started haunting thrift shops, resale stores, and vintage clothing boutiques in the early 1970s. Since then, people in the business say prices have quadrupled. So we start to get that like, oh, it’s people who don’t need to thrift, who are taking the good stuff, right?

Alex:

I mean, this is just exactly the same conversation we’re having right now.

Amanda:

Seriously, humans are just in this loop. I don’t know what’s going on. What is time? I don’t even know. Um, there was also at this point, allegedly a shortage of merchandise, because not only were middle class families shopping at thrift stores, they were also pealing, feeling the pinch of inflation. So rather than donating their unwanted items, which they had done for decades at this point, they were actually selling the stuff on their own, whether it was at extra cash which they needed.

Alex:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

And this reminded me so much of right now too.

Alex:

Yeah, I mean, you can definitely see that reflected now in the prevalence of resale, how like even people who aren’t selling professionally have more, you know, access to being able to do it just casually with their own stuff. And I also find it interesting that this 1970s conversation is in line with an economic downturn. They’re talking about inflation. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this is cropping back up now when we’re seeing similar economic patterns.

Amanda:

Totally, I, back in 2020, when I certainly had an extra amount of time to reflect on things, I had this revelation one day that basically, starting around the late odds, late oddies, early like 2020, we were actually starting to find ourselves in the late 70s again, just culturally, and especially in terms of like, kind of like, you know, the economic situation we were in, where people were feeling the pinch, And just even, you know, strangely enough, from like an aesthetic perspective,

and I was fascinated by that, that we would simultaneously be really into 70s fashion, while also living all of the challenges of the 70s.

Alex:

Yeah, it’s very interesting.

Amanda:

Very interesting. So, at the same time, you know, so we have, let’s recap where we are, it’s 1978, more and more middle class people are using thrift stores. At the same time, they don’t have money are stuff like they have been, so they’re selling it as well to get extra cash. At the same time, young people were getting really into secondhand clothing, particularly those involved in the counterculture, who were feeling disenchanted with the consumerism of American culture.

Alex:

again sounds very familiar.

Amanda:

odds are high that if you’re listening to Clotheshorse, you are part of a counter-cultural movement at this point, right?

Alex:

Yeah.

Amanda:

So this combination of secondhand clothing being trendy and rising inflation had department stores. Now this is interesting, gotta remember, department stores not so meaningful to us now, but in the 70s were like where most people bought their stuff. Department stores…

Alex: They were the backbone of retail during that time, yeah.

Amanda:

They were the most important part of them all, if the mall if it existed in your town. You know, you didn’t care about the other little stores, like the inverse now, right? So department stores were like, hmm, okay. So people have less money, secondhand clothing is kind of trendy, more acceptable, especially for middle-class consumers. Why don’t we start having departments in our stores that are secondhand clothing?

So this was wildly successful. Stores were selling out all over the place. And basically the department stores selling secondhand clothing, not because it wasn’t wildly successful, because it was, because they couldn’t get enough inventory. There just wasn’t enough to go around. And to be fair, we’re going to get into this later, but the modern thrift store sort of infrastructure is all about logistics. It’s primarily moving stuff around at this point.

And I would suspect that, I mean, department stores don’t matter in the same way right now, but if this happened now, department stores wouldn’t have run out of inventory. And we do see a little bit of that. I don’t know if this is still going on, but it’s in the early days of the pandemic or like 2019 Like thread up was in Macy’s and I think Nordstrom was trying to do something with them And it was this buzzy thing that department stores were trying to get into But just department stores aren’t relevant in the same way

Alex:

I mean, I think, correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure that the only facets of department stores that are thriving is the discount

Amanda:

Yeah.

Alex:

and off, you know, like Nordstrom Rack, I think is actually doing decent. And feel like that’s actually what’s keeping a lot of the department stores afloat

Amanda:

Mm-hmm

Alex:

now. I think that’s a good point. I think that’s a good point. I think that’s a good point. I think that’s a good point. I think that’s a good point. I think that’s a good point.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah, and so they ran out of secondhand clothing. Also, it’s important to remember that we weren’t over consuming. I’m gonna say we, I guess the people of the 70s, but if we are in a time loop, perhaps it was us as well, let’s get full matrix here, but people back then weren’t buying and disposing of clothing there we are now. So running out of inventory was more of a possibility.

Alex:

Right? The 1970s was also pre-fast fashion. It was pre-mass.

They weren’t mass producing garments in the same way back then. So there were much more limited runs of the things that were available to purchase. And clothing was also just a lot more expensive. It really doesn’t feel like it’s been that long since the 70s, but the average cost of an article of clothing was way higher back then to buy new. So people just, yeah. not a thing to shop the way that we shop now because it just wasn’t possible

Amanda:

So here’s the thing, and this also reminds me of something we’re gonna touch on later. Thrift stores, who are after all, and we’re gonna reiterate this many, many times, they are businesses. They are businesses first, everything else second,

Alex:

Yep.

Amanda:

Even back then in the 70s. They were like, how do we keep our businesses growing when we have more competition? We have vintage stores popping up. We have people selling at flea market, We have department stores getting in on the action. How would they continue to grow and bring in more and more customers? Even back then, and it was not this era of overconsumption that we’re in right now, Goodwill and Salvation Army were still receiving far more inventory than they could ever actually sell. So they were selling the excess off to bag pickers who were selling it to vintage stores, smaller secondhand dealers, stores, that kind of thing.

And it was a pretty good time to be a rag picker because there was so much stuff to choose from. We’re going to come back to that in a moment. But getting back to the thrift stores, they were kind of like, okay, we got to be more competitive. We got to create more exciting window displays. We have to get new fixtures. We have to add nicer fitting rooms. We have to do special promos and pull together collections and out there and tell people that we’re a great place to shop.

So it kind of, I mean, it’s, this is happening right now too, which we’re going to talk about, but the thrift stores are kind of one of the biggest competitors for the best secondhand stuff out there right now.

So it was a great time to be a rag picker, as I said, but even back then, even when we’re like, okay, department stores are getting into the secondhand game, but they can’t even get enough inventory to keep these sections open, even with thrift stores being like, How do we make become more competitive? How do we become more aspirational? All that stuff. Even then, most of the second hand clothes that were being donated at that point were being shipped overseas, just like now. But maybe it was a little bit different than it is now. Harvey Sheffrin, who ran a large rag warehouse in Queens in the 70s, told The New York Times that more than 50% of his second hand clothing was sold overseas. as it is now. Yes, there was stuff going to the global south for sure, but here’s what Mr. Chefman, Chefrin, told the New York Times. He said, when he gets a big collection of old clothes from his sources around the country, rag dealers who are less fashion-minded than he is, he sends it to a back burner market like Amsterdam to see how it does there. If it goes, I start shipping to the Paris it and claim it as their own. Most of the recent so-called fashion innovations have been stolen from Parisians wearing old American clothes.

Alex:

So interesting.

Amanda:

So interesting, right? So, you know, okay, lots of people are shopping secondhand, it’s trendy, middle-class people are in on it now, still lots of stuff being shipped overseas, but in general, like, we’ve got this thriving secondhand environment at this point.

Alex:

Mm-hmm.

Amanda:

Thrifting remained popular with the hipsters and very various subcultures of the 80s. I mean, that’s basically the theme of Pretty in Pink, and I refuse to admit that it’s anything else. It’s all about taking cool thrifted stuff and turning it into cute outfits.

But also, even though we tend to think of the 80s as this time of excess, it was actually where a lot of the economic issues that we struggle with now in 2023, it’s when they began. This was the beginning of the decline of the middle class. It was the beginning of wage stagnation, keeping up with cost of living, the Reagan administration cut many programs that were part of the social safety net. And over the nearly decade-long presidency, the minimum wage remained frozen while cost of living increased. It was not a great time financially. This is where we begin to hear about the decline of the middle class.

From a 1986 New York Times article called Vintage Clothing Gains in Popularity,

“Many of those that dislike wearing hand-me-downs and anything outdated are flocking to shops that specialize in vintage clothing. Customers browsing through yesterday’s collections are no less diverse than their interests and special needs than the fashions and accessories to which they are drawn. Just-

Alex:

It’s so interesting because this is 10 whole years after the first article that you quoted about, you know, look at it’s becoming so popular now to shop second hand.

Amanda:

I know. Yeah, yeah. Also, just imagine how great the vintage shopping in 1986 would have been.

Alex:

Oh, I don’t even want to

You would have been like, ew, 70s, and put it back on the rack. Anyway, from a 1988 New York Times article, so two years later, about the rise of popularity and thrifting. Once again, why are we in this constant loop? We just talked about this 10 years ago, right? “The sale of used clothing is becoming a booming business in New Jersey. And in the process, thrift shops are removing the stigma against second hand wear, giving it an acceptable and even trendy new public image. Shop managers say the popularity of thrift store shopping has diversified to include customers from all socioeconomic levels. Once considered the domain of women seeking fashion at low cost for themselves and their children, the shops are now drawing a significant number of men into the quest for bargains in clothing, furniture, and antiques. Helen Nugent, president of the Junior leagues of the Oranges in Short Hills, I totally have been to the junior league shop there, by the way, which sponsors a thrift shop in Milburn said that buying a thrift shops had become respectable for middle class shoppers. The stigma has reversed so that people think you are smart if you can save money. It’s also a trendy thing to do.” 1988, my friends.

Alex:

interesting.

Amanda:

I know, I know. So then we get into the 90s. And so then we get into like when I am a young teenager Well, like a tween and then a young teenager and I this is when I discovered thrifting. So my family was poor, but we did not thrift. It was a very stigmatized to go thrifting. And instead we would just buy like really cheap outlet clothes or we would go to a yard sale and it’d be okay. But like my family when I started thrifting was scandalized, which I thought was really hilarious because we also bought all our groceries from the place where it’s like all the dented cans that fell off the back of a truck. So I don’t know why we were like drawing the line there. But like To me and my cool friends in in high school and in college like this is like thrifting was like where we got all of our clothes And I think a lot of this was like alternative music It was grunge lots of people want to blame Curtin Courtney But there was also a recession happening again, right? Because the economy just kept getting worse and worse and worse and it like it once again setting the stage for where we are now financially

Things weren’t as extreme as they are now but between the 1% and everyone else was widening every year. And once again, people were turning even more to second hand shopping. This is from a New York Times article called Second Hand Clothes Back in First Time Buyers. I forgot to put the year in here, but I think it was around 1992.

Spurred by the recession as well as an interest in recycling. So now we’re starting to talk about thrifting as an environmental step you could take, right?

Alex:

And the 90s was definitely the very beginning of like, you know, environmentalism being like a huge, very popular movement. I feel like Earth Day was created in the 90s, I believe.

Amanda:

Mm-hmm

Alex:

And like, I feel like the recycling boom and all of that stuff was also happening around this time.

Amanda:

Totally, totally. So now we have the added layer of not only is it cool, not only is it affordable, not only is it sort of taking a stance against capitalism and consumerism, it’s also eco-friendly. So where I lost my place here. Oh, okay. Shops are doing a brisk business in affluent suburbs from Greenwich to Westport, which I can say are very affluent. I dated someone who had lived in both Greenwich and Westport and at one point one of her neighbors was Martha Stewart. So very

Alex:

That sounds about right.

Amanda:

Any stigma once connected with them is fading for newly cost-conscious shoppers who find they can purchase designer goods for a fraction of their original cost. So with that we’ve got people thrifting more and more in the 90s. I can say that thrifting in the 90s was amazing. Where I grew up in central Pennsylvania, I could take two buses to go to basically like a rag yard in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. And at that point, the rag yard was only the clothes. of elderly people who had either passed away or had transitioned into a different living situation and had cleaned out a lot of their stuff. So it was all 50s, 60s, and 70s all the time.

Alex:

Wow.

Amanda:

It was a dream time, right? But that was also not that far in the rear view at that point,

right? So in the era of the hipster, AKA the aughts, now we’re in this century, we’re getting into the fast fashion era, and by then it was difficult to find true vintage within the city limits. I remember being like 2005 and I’d be like, why is everything at the thrift store 90s? I hate it, right?

That’s how it works, right? There were also more options then and they might be more expensive than the thrift store, but they were still in many situations more affordable than going to like Nordstrom or something like that. Like for example, eBay.

I’m going to tell you that around 2005, It was very normal to hang out with your hipster friends at your local hipster dive bar, drinking really cheap beer, and complain about how eBay sellers were ruining thrift stores, okay?

So once again, we’re just in this cycle. I don’t know what is wrong with us. And you could also, there were vintage stores more and more everywhere, consignment shops, which I’m a huge fan of, places like Buffalo Exchange and Crossroads, these things were growing and expanding. You know, one thing I want to call out that I think is really important here is that while no one in my hipster friend group, I’m thinking specifically of like in my early 20s living in Portland, Oregon, none of them lived a particularly luxurious lifestyle. Most did however have family to fall back on for financial assistance or even in some cases a trust fund. So these weren’t destitute people, but they were only wearing second hand clothing.

And at the same time, to be fair, you can’t judge. when you see them out in the world. Because many of them were struggling with student loan debt, a lack of good paying jobs, rising rents, debt from credit cards that for reasons I cannot understand except for hashtag capitalism were being handed out like candy to 18 year olds at college orientation. Like people might look like they have money when they don’t .

So that brings me to an amazing Jezebel piece, it is a very long set aside at least 15 minutes to read it and then read it again. It’s called the complicated reality of thrift store gentrification. It’s from a few years ago. The whole thing is worth an amazing read. I mean, just so insightful and really gets the wheels turning. But this quote, it’s a paragraph, so get ready everyone. It really summarizes a lot of this to me. In the history of wearing secondhand clothing, oh, I’m sorry, let me try this again. The history of wearing secondhand clothing is more complicated than rich kids simply play acting poverty and marginalized identities, reflecting economic and political anxieties of particular eras. It’s hard to not notice parallels between how some anti-consumerist buyers embrace secondhand clothing in the 60s and 70s, and why Gen Z gravitates towards thrifting. Fast fashion ceaseless churn of trends and poor construction ensures that whatever you buy one month, Whatever you buy one month will not only be out of style the next year, but likely falling apart in the process. You can opt out of the hegemony and get an arguably better made garment by waiting through your local goodwill. And a greater understanding of global clothing waste also makes shopping for recycled clothes as a starting point far more appealing. So, I mean, we’ve seen time and time again people thrift shopping because want to participate in capitalism because they don’t have a lot of money because they just, you know, they think about the the environmental impact of recycling clothing. I think

more than ever we’ve got all those things happening right now and we’re also like wow new clothes are garbage.

Alex:

Yeah, I mean, I, the main reason that I do shop second hand is just because I don’t really like the options for new clothes,

Amanda:

Me neither.

Alex:

which is really crazy because we have more options than ever. There is so much out there available to buy and I just find that most of it doesn’t appeal to me and the stuff that does is like way out of my price range

Amanda:

I would agree with that. And you know what? I’m going to be really honest. I am a very pro secondhand shopping person. To me, that is the best thing we can do from an environmental perspective. It’s the best thing we can do from an ethical perspective, because for the vast majority of us, new, ethical, sustainable, a long lasting, good fitting clothing is not an option. It’s

And I would much rather someone go hit up the Goodwill than go place a huge Shein order.

Alex:

Yeah, totally.

Amanda:

Okay, so are you ready to bust some myths?

Alex:

I think I’m ready to get into it.

Amanda:

Okay, so myth number one, this is the first one I hear from people all the time: thrift stores are designed to be a resource for low income people. Yeah, this.

Alex:

Let’s get into what thrift stores are. You know, and like, what’s the technical business like model for a thrift store? But I see so many comments from people who are, you know, saying, I feel like it’s this phrase of “donating your clothes to charity” that has just run wild. I feel like that has repeated so much that people have really really absorbed that and now think that donating your clothes to a thrift means that you are giving your clothing to someone when that is just really far from how that system actually works.

Amanda:

Yes, as we are going to say many, many times, thrift stores are businesses, whether they are a nonprofit or for-profit. So I thought we’d get started. We have an amazing message from Stacie of Rainbow Vintage. I’m gonna listen to that. I’m gonna share some other thoughts she shared. And then we’re gonna talk about the thrift industry. So let’s take a listen.

Message from Stacie:

I’ve been a vintage clothing dealer for 25 years, since I was 20. I started out with a shop which I closed after two years, but kept selling clothing mostly at vintage shows across the country. Because I never made much money. I’ve always had other jobs, but I love it too much to quit. I don’t know any vintage dealers who’ve gotten rich either, although a few have managed to buy a house. I’ve been sourcing from thrift stores my whole career, I’ll be at less and less, and they are only one of many sources.

I did go through a period early in my career when I wondered whether I was taking things that someone else needed. But ultimately, I realized that what I’m selling are not necessities. They’re just things people want. No one needs a vintage dress or a vintage anything so I’m not depriving anyone. These things are luxuries. Even if someone else who loves vintage happened to find it, what are the chances that it’s their size and their style and it fits into their existing wardrobe, I was often buying things that had been there long enough to be down to half price and would soon be dragged out. So I think the chances are genuinely pretty slim. I also watch what others were buying and almost never saw anything that I’d have grabbed. Everyone is looking for different stuff. Everyone’s tastes, size and needs are different.

Thrift stores represent a distribution problem. Ordinarily, as a consumer, you seek the widget. If you need a new garlic press, you go to the store that sells garlic presses and you buy one. If they’re out of garlic presses you come back next week or you go to the other garlic press store. But with thrifting the widget seeks you because the assortment is totally random. That’s why we all have a collection of dumb mugs in our cupboard. You walk into the thrift and find something you’ve been looking for or not. And you have essentially zero control over that. resellers fill in that gap matching randomly assorted things to specific customers. thrifts haven’t figured out how to do that themselves yet. And I think until they do if they ever do, resellers will have a role to fill.

I get to take things that would very likely go into oblivion and replace them with new owners who will enjoy them and care for them and rehome them appropriately when the time comes. I told an acquaintance what I do a couple of months ago and they told me that “resellers buy all the cute clothes and leave nothing for the poor.” I’d encountered that opinion on Instagram about 100 times but never in person. I kind of laughed and pointed out that resellers couldn’t buy all the cute clothes because there’s too much. How would they list, store, and sell all of it? Clothing is the single most labor intensive thing to sell online. You have to prep it, wash it, steam it, lint roll it, then you have to photograph it, take measurements, describe every flaw. The only easy part is the shipping. Even if you just auctioned it all off on whatnot, it’s still a lot of labor.

I didn’t even get into the fact that “cute” is subjective. Or that thrifts are putting out new stuff all day every day, or the tons that get bailed and shipped overseas. What I wish I’d said is “Why do you think that? Where did that idea come from?” Because I think that might have gotten them thinking more. I tried to engage with the anti reseller people on Instagram who often claimed that thrift stores exist so that poor people have access to cheap clothing. In the earliest days over a century ago, that actually was part of their purpose. But these days, it’s absurd. How fucking fucked up is it that people are so beguiled by consumerism, that they think it’s altruistic to provide special stores for the poor just so they can over consume at the normal rate. As my friend Elisa put it when that Jezebel article was going around a couple years ago, “it seems like thrift stores have more shit than they can sell and no one has to feel bad about shopping there even if you’re going to resell it.”

Amanda:

What a killer way to get this episode started, right?

Alex:

Yeah, she touched on so many of the points that I have in my notes.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah, I know you two are like the same mind here. So, you know, I wondered where do people get this idea? Because this is the oneI see thrown out there the most, that thrift stores are supposed to be a resource for low income people.

Alex:

I mean, again, I think it’s just the donating clothing to charity thing.

I think that that phrase, which I wouldn’t be surprised if that phrase is like perpetuated by the thrift store industry, you know, it puts them out as a like a good cause and it makes people feel good and it makes people feel more inclined to give their stuff to them.

I feel like we’ve repeated that so many times that people have just kind of misconstrued what that actually means. You know, like you said, at the end of the day, they’re a business.

And while there are thrift chains that do hold non-profit status, there are a lot that are just fully for-profit companies. And the ones that are non-profits, the philanthropic goals of the stores are completely unrelated to the actual items that they’re selling.

Amanda:

Yes.

Alex:

So, you know, most thrift stores will support things. shelters, aid organizations. I think Salvation Army is like the evangelical church, which they say very loudly and proudly on all of their

like online platforms. They also sometimes like provide programs like job placement or career advancement. And so the products that are available to buy in the store are not in themselves the charitable aspect. So I just feel like people get that a little bit mixed up.

Amanda:

It’s a means to an end.

Alex:

Exactly. And so technically, if you are donating your things to a thrift store for the purpose of supporting charity, you know, I don’t know that I necessarily believe in a lot of the charitable components of the larger chains. However, there are smaller independent thrift stores, a lot of them support like DV shelters or animal shelters that probably are doing good in their communities. If you want to donate to these places in, you know, and that’s your way of trying to help them to support them Then technically you should want as many things as possible to sell for as much money as possible

Because that that is that’s the that’s the philanthropy there is them selling product and then using the money to support this cause.

Amanda:

So I have another, this is a little bit more like, I don’t know, like a squishier reason why I also think that people think that thrift stores are a resource for low income people. And it is because of the highly still prevalent social stigma that things that are used are for poor people.

And they’re undesirable and that they lose their appeal and their value the moment they’re used. And I still see this conversation coming up on social media all the time and this is something we’re gonna get to you in a little bit. Someone seriously posted a couple weeks ago on one of my posts about paying six dollars for a secondhand shirt, saying “That’s crazy “and I was like six dollars for a shirt is pretty cheap.

Alex:

Our perception of the value of clothing is so warped.

Amanda:

So warped and then on top of that, it’s like, “oh, and it’s second hand.” When I started thrift shopping in high school, people would be like, what are you poor? And I’m like, yeah, actually I am. But I also like have a great sense of style, you know, and I know that that stigma is still there. We’re still working to destigmatize that. I can assure you that for every one of us who is like, “why wouldn’t you wear second hand clothes?” There are 10 other people who think that you get bed bugs or look gross wearing secondhand clothing, right?

We’re still getting there, but I think that perhaps even within our community, there is a little bit of unconscious stigma that secondhand stuff has no value and therefore it should be for poor people.

And I think that’s something for all of us to unpack as well.

So, Stacie had a few more thoughts she wanted to share on this topic. She said, ‘I often

see claims that the purpose of thrift stores is to allow poor people to buy things cheaply, but there are tons of other ways to get things cheap or free. Garage sales, rummage sales, free cycle, buy nothing groups, Craigslist, Facebook Marketplace, mutual aid groups, just asking around, swaps on and on and on. Why would it be necessary to open an entire store just for the purpose of selling things cheaply? I think that for some people who, you know, I, for a lot of people, like I would say, when they struggle with like how say cheap Shein is versus like, I don’t know, some like quote unquote ethical brand, what they really see is the big gap there is that like for the price of one thing from one of those brands, you could buy 20 things from Shein. And why wouldn’t you want 20 instead of one, right?

You can over consume secondhand clothing as well.

Alex:

Absolutely.

Amanda:

But I think that’s another thing that we all really need to work on. I mean, that’s what I’m actively working on all the time is breaking that part of my brain. I don’t want it in there anymore, you know? Next Stacie said, “why would any group like a church open a thrift when there’s already another in the community?” Fair. “Why aren’t thrift shops cheaper then and why do they raise their prices? Wouldn’t they be competitive with dollar stores and Walmart if affordability was their mission?” Agreed.

And the next question, which is the big one, “why charge money at all? Why not just give the stuff to the needy? Some thrifts do, of course, but it’s not their main mission. And I never see people bring this up. Why wouldn’t they at least give them first pick?” 100 percent agree. Why go through the whole ceremony of a store? Right?

Alex:

Yeah, and I mean, there are places that you can donate your things directly to. If you are looking to re-home your clothing to people that need them, then the thrift store is not the right place.

Amanda:

Yeah. Yeah.

Alex:

There are shelters that accept donations. They usually have very specific lists for these specific items that people are looking for. And then there’s also organizations that like match like formal wear prom dresses with people who can’t afford them, give people like professional clothing for interviews. So there are groups out there that probably do want the stuff that you need that are giving them directly to people. It’s just not the thrift store.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah, if your end goal as a person donating your clothing is that I want this to be on someone else’s body in my community, then you need to be donating to something that isn’t a thrift store.

Alex:

Yes.

Amanda:

Period.

Alex:

Yep.

Amanda:

And the last thing that Stacie called out is, “thrift stores would close if only people too poor to buy new stuff shopped there.”

Alex:

Yeah.

Amanda:

Yeah. So, you know, I do think that you’re right that there is also this like illusion that we’re all doing this charitable, by donating our stuff. And that benefits the thrift stores who once again, their goal is to sell as much stuff as possible to raise money for whatever it is they’re raising money for even if that’s just for shareholders or the owner of the company, right? So I wanted to call out that there are a lot of for-profit thrift companies in here and I have shopped at many of them.

America’s Thrift Store which has 21 locations in the South,

Family Thrift Center, 40 stores in Texas and Arizona, I have totally been to them.

Red, White, and Bluehrift stores, they have 22 stores kind of scattered across the country, including one outside of Portland, Oregon, which used to be a really great place to score stuff. It was cash only.

Savers.TBI Inc. / Value Village, 295 stores in the U.S., Canada, and Australia. It is the largest for-profit thrift store chain in the world, with revenue estimated at $3 billion per year.

Most of their inventory they get for free through donations, but they also buy inventory from Goodwill, from other so-called textile recycling companies, but nonetheless, there’s a lot of profit being made right there. Texas Thrift, which we have here in Austin, and I’m actually a huge fan of Texas Thrift in terms of like if you have something specific in mind that you are looking for, they will probably have it because it’s so much high volume. I would say that they probably buy like 90% of their inventory. And I’ll also just call that Thred Up is essentially a thrift store online definitely for profit. And Goodwill is a nonprofit. We talked about Goodwill many times here in Clotheshorse

In 2022, Goodwill did $7.4 billion in revenue. It is technically a nonprofit, but it does all the grossest things you can do. It pays huge bonuses to its executives. over this actually. It pays workers with disabilities below the minimum wage. It takes money from the US government to fund the programs that ostensibly your purchases are funding. And it lobbies super duper hard, like as in spends money lobbying against raising the minimum wage.

Alex:

Yup.

Amanda:

I mean, Goodwill is like the low rung for me in terms of thrifting, like I try to avoid. At the end of the day, stores benefit from selling stuff. That’s the business model. They are stores. And whether they’re for profit or not, the goal is to make as much money as possible. Should thrift stores give back to the community more, especially since they receive most of their inventory for free? Probably. Sure, I agree. Figure something out. These companies, we should be holding them accountable to give back more of that stuff in their community or use more of that money within their community.

I just want to know who’s ready to go them that because it’s not going to change if we’re not all involved in pushing for that.

Alex:

Yeah, that’s so true.

Amanda:

Okay, so now we have another message. This one is from Clare, who goes by Thrifted by Clare on social media.

A message from Clare:

My name is Clare and I’m a part time reseller based in San Diego, California. You can find me on Instagram at Poshmark at Thrifted by Clire. I got started reselling in the fall of 2020. As an at home panda bank activity I can do on the side of my full time job in sales. I grew up there fishing from a young age and knew I was able to find really great items secondhand for myself, and realize that some of the items I was finding I could turn a profit on. I used YouTube to learn everything I needed to know to start selling on Poshmark and later other platforms. reselling is primarily a hobby that pays me to do something I love: thrifting.

I would not say that my reselling business makes me a ton of extra money, especially after cost of goods and labor, probably a few 100 bucks a month so nowhere close to a living wage. But it’s a nice supplement since since I’m still early in my career, and the cost of living in San Diego is quite high. I get really frustrated when I see people commenting on how resellers are stealing from the poor. First of all, thrift stores are not government entitlements or benefits exclusively for the needy. There are no rules about needing to be below the poverty line to shop there. I buy all my clothes this way to shop sustainably and save money. And besides, most people can find better deals. Retail at stores like Ross and Kohl’s while some thrift stores are nonprofits and earn money for a cause, many are for profit institutions like savers, for example, they’re not much better than a reseller trying to turn a profit. Even nonprofits like Goodwill pay north of $500,000 a year to their CEO. And all this is to say that these stores want to make money. They do so by selling as many items as they can that get donated to them as possible. Often, there’s just too many items that they cannot possibly put them all out in the store, and they’re forced to turn them to the dump. Some people might be familiar with the goodwill outlet or bins which does this. A thrift store I visit often actually runs flash sales pretty frequently because they simply don’t have enough hangers or space available to put donations out that they have in the back. They also sometimes have to pass on items because they can’t fit them all in the store. Basically, there’s just so much discarded clothing that resellers seriously do stores a solid by buying lots of items. If someone in need is shopping in store, I don’t think they really need to be worried about a reseller. Taking all the good items. More often than not I leave behind tons of great items because they aren’t priced exactly where I’d like to turn a profit, especially as a part time reseller has to be worth my time. Also, there’s many options that are constantly being replenished. So if you’re looking for a pair of black jeans, I assure you there’s probably like 20 plus different options there. While I’d love to be at a thrift store every day, I simply don’t have the time or the funds to clear out the thrift store of every great item I find. I really do think resellers offer a number of wonderful benefits to our community. Firstly, they support local charity shops and nonprofit businesses by purchasing they’re so frequently they repair and clean pre loved items so that they can continue to be worn. They make one of a kind of desirable secondhand items accessible for a larger audience online, oftentimes at a much better price than you would find at the retail store even on sale at a retail store. They also store a portion of the excess unwanted clothing in the world until they find a new home. Most of all, we’re running small businesses or patronizing small and local businesses using services like storage facilities. Some resellers hire employees, all resellers are buying sorts of supplies for shipping cleaning photography, mannequins, hangers, you name it.

Amanda:

What I really loved about Clare’s message, which honestly sets some thoughts in motion for me, was about how reselling secondhand, it’s all part of this slower economy that we need. And I see resellers being a really important part of that because they do support local businesses. They are small businesses in their own way. They create jobs. They do have this impact that, you know, sure, is the impact as big as say Amazon has in a bad way? No, but with many, many, many people sharing and selling secondhand clothes, reusing, re-wearing, we do see a large impact. And so, I think that’s a good point. I think that’s a good point. I think that’s a good point. I think that’s a good point. I think that’s a good point.

Alex:

Yeah, definitely.

Amanda:

So just, I really, I really liked that message. Do you have any other thoughts, anything else you wanna add about debunking myth number one? I

Alex:

I think that pretty much covers it. Like I said, it feels like nitpicky to get into the technicalities, but I just have seen so many people complaining that, you know, when people donate stuff, like they’re not trying to give it to resellers or that that’s not like what they have in mind.

And if that’s the case, then, you know, the thrift store is just not the right place to go.

Amanda:

That’s right, if that’s not what you want to happen with your stuff, there are other places to re-home it. It will take more work. It’s probably a better path for you actually to ensure maximum use. It’s more mindful re-homing, right? Which we talk about a lot here. I’m gonna tell you, based on conversations I’ve had with people in my life who work in thrift stores as sorters or have at some point, the vast majority of people who show up with stuff at the Goodwill or any other thrift store are not there in hopes of doing for the world. They are there because they want to get rid of their stuff as easily as possible.

Alex:

Yeah, and I think that’s another issue is that I think a lot of the stuff that people are donating is not what people need.

Amanda:

Yeah.

Alex:

You know, again, if you look into the lists that your local shelters have, they are looking for specific items. There’s very little overlap on those lists with the things that resellers are looking for. So yeah, there are definitely tons of resources out there for you to go to if you are looking to in a very intentional way. Um, otherwise when you drop your stuff off at the thrift, you are really leaving it in the hands of whoever picks it up there and, you know, your stuff could go straight into the garbage.

That’s the reality of dropping it off at the thrift store. Like, you are just saying, I’m leaving it here and whatever happens happens and you can’t- you know, you don’t- can’t be upset about where it goes.

Amanda:

No, no, I mean, ultimately in this day and age, thrift stores are really doing a service of disposal for you and getting it out of your life in one stop.

Amanda:

So let’s move on to myth number two, another personal fave of mine: Resellers are making tons of money, just tons, from taking things that should be for low-income people.

Alex:

Yes, the phrase I always see is resellers are “making bank.” I don’t know what it is, but that specific thing I always see and it always makes me laugh because I’m like, where are these resellers that are making bank and are they like open to consulting? Like, can they chat with me? Because I would really love to know what they’re doing to be making so much money because I feel like I really enjoy what I do and I think I’m pretty good at it. I have like a very solid customer base certainly not rolling in money over here by any means.

Amanda:

I would say like 99% of the resellers and vintage sellers that I know also work a full-time job.

Alex:

Yes.

Amanda:

Um, are hobbling together all kinds of jobs to stay afloat.

Alex:

Mm-hmm. Yep

Amanda:

None of them are making bank. And I will tell you all as someone who is a consultant who also teaches classes to small business owners, so many people, regular basis. I hear from them who are resellers who are not paying themselves, who just can’t get by, who don’t where it’s going wrong and certainly none of them are like making six figures or whatever nonsense I hear being thrown out there.

Alex:

No, and I think that the very, very small percentage of resellers that are, you know, making like what would be considered quite a lot of money are people who are in very specific specialty facets of resale. So there are people who deal specifically in high end designer antique. And that requires like very special skill sets. That stuff does not come from the thrift store.

That you know, it requires. special laundering, it requires a lot of research, knowledge, mending, even packing and shipping is different when you’re dealing with like vintage couture than regular clothing.

So you know, sure some people are making plenty of money off of resale but that’s not like the average reseller. That’s a very specific, highly skilled group of people that are working in a very niche corner of this market.

Amanda:

Yeah, can I tell you who’s really making money off of resale? I’ve got three names for you.

Alex:

Okay, I’m ready.

Amanda:

Number one is Poshmark, who made $350 million in revenue last year. No, that’s before expenses, that’s not their profit, but that was how much sales came out of Poshmark. Oh no, I’m sorry, that’s not even sales. That’s how much Poshmark made in fees from people selling on their platform.

Alex:

Yep.

Amanda:

Remember, Poshmark didn’t source or sell anything. They were just like.

Alex:

They don’t do any of the… they are just a platform, they’re just a middleman.

They don’t…they don’t touch the inventory. They don’t do any of the communications with buyers and sellers.

Amanda:

They don’t do the shipping.

Alex:

Nope.

Amanda:

They don’t fret about things. OK, so Poshmark, $350 million. Number two, Depop, who made $552 million last year. Once again, Depop doesn’t sell anything.

Alex:

Yep, just the middleman.

Amanda:

And then this one really shocked me. But I think it’s because this is a more global resale platform. Mercari, $1.2 billion in revenue last year.

Alex:

That’s crazy.

Amanda:

Yeah, once again, they don’t sell anything. People sell the things, right?

Sure, yeah, they provide a platform. There are systems in place that make it easier to reach customers, blah, blah, blah, blah, but ultimately they are making a ton of money off of resale and all of these websites, all of these apps, they use a lot of fast fashion tricks to get customers to over consume. I feel like

Alex:

Absolutely.

Amanda:

I am constantly getting a push notification from one of these apps, like every 15 minutes.

Alex:

Oh, I get these weird emails from Poshmark where like, they know what I like.

And they’ll be like, we just selected, we handpicked all of these vintage trench coats for you. And I’m like, leave me alone. I have a trench coat problem. You guys don’t need to send me these emails. It feels so mean and targeted. Don’t tempt me. But they do it on purpose, obviously.

Amanda:

Mm-hmm. And I have no doubt that they’re also selling all of our data Because they’re like,

“oh seems like people are really into buying trench coats who live in New York City.”

Alex:

Yup

Amanda:

They are making bank off of the world of resale unlike all the individual sellers, not so much

Alex:

Yes, and that’s also a big part of the cost of people who use resailing platforms is that basically no matter what method you use for resale, you know, a cut of that is going to whatever platform you’re using. So, you know, when people are upset about prices, like, well, if the fees were lower, people could price lower.

Amanda:

Yeah.

Alex:

But that never seems to be part of the conversation. No one seems upset about the 30% or whatever the Poshmark is taking.

Amanda:

And the other thing is, anytime you buy anything on one of these platforms and you get free shipping, the person who sold you the thing is paying for the shipping. It’s not Poshmark. It’s not Depop. It’s not Mercari. It’s the person who sold you the thing.

Alex:

Yeah,Poshmark does this weird thing where they like, they incentivize you to send people offers and they basically have these built-in preset offers where you can select from a few different options and they give you different options of quote unquote discounted shipping and it’s just you, it comes out of the amount that you get to keep. So if you offer someone this deal plus free shipping, just make eight dollars less because you’re paying for the shipping. But then it like words it in a way that’s supposed to attempt the customer to do it. It’s, it’s all very weird.

Amanda:

Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s very confusing for the customer. It definitely makes the customer think that Poshmark is giving them the free shipping or the discount.And that’s that’s great because the less you care about the person selling you the thing, the harder the bargain you’re going to drive. And it all works for Poshmark who gets paid no matter what at the end of the day. So, you know, I think it’s really important for us to remember of resale, it’s not the people who you think it is.

Alex:

Absolutely. And I think also that this idea operates under the assumption that resellers aren’t low income people themselves. There are plenty of people in resale, like you said, that work many different jobs and, you know, really use resale as a way to get by. And there are also a lot of reasons that people choose resale that prevent them from working in like more traditional career fields.

Resale is a huge resource for people who have different types or mental health issues, mobility issues, or if they’re caretaking for children, family members, there’s so many different reasons that people may not be able to get a quote unquote, like more traditional job. And reselling is a really amazing opportunity for them.

So it feels weird to villainize resellers as taking something away from people who need it, when in fact a lot of resellers need that in order to survive.

Amanda:

Yeah, like once again, people are not getting rich from resale. People are not even getting to be middle class off of resale. Sure, yeah, there are people, as Alex mentioned, there are people who are selling higher end stuff or at a specific niche or are turning so much product that they can make a living like that. But no one’s making money without a lot of hard work here, no matter how much the money is.

Alex:

Absolutely.

Amanda:

So I have a few quotes here from different members of the community. for feedback, experiences, thoughts, all of that. I asked for it in three different categories. One was from people who are actually resellers, who we’re gonna hear from in the next few quotes I’m gonna read. Second, people who rely on resellers because they want to shop secondhand but maybe don’t have access or other barriers. And three, people who work in thrift stores or have worked in thrift stores. So we’ve got a lot of great stuff coming. I wanted to just get information and experiences of this world of resale. And so, I’m going to go ahead and do some more of this.

Alex:

Yeah, I think it’s so important too, because I know that a lot of times like people don’t necessarily want to hear from the perspective of resellers because it feels like I’m just defending my own business.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah.

Alex:

You know, people are like, yeah, obviously you’re gonna say it’s fine because you’re making money off of it, which like, I suppose is fair to an extent, but yeah, I think it’s just really good to have outside perspectives as well to really just get a feel for how like rounded this issue is.

Amanda:

Yeah, so we have a lot of, I mean, man, I gotta tell you, we received so many messages that obviously not everybody’s stuff is gonna be in these two episodes because I would just be reading for hours and hours and no one wants to hear that. But I saw so many just like great pictures emerging, so many themes. And I read every single message at least once, if not two or three times as I tried to pull all these together. And I just, I don’t know, the community resource is just so strong and so thoughtful and actually does come to the table with a lot of nuance around these things.

Alex:

Yeah, absolutely.

Amanda:

So first off we have Sarah who is a reseller. She said,

“I was an elementary school teacher for almost ten years when I had my first child who is now 5. I decided to take a year off and I had dabbled in selling a few items of my own from my personal collection and I just started listing more and more items. It is now 5 and a half years later and I am a full-time reseller with 1,700 active listings who is selling anywhere from 50 – 100 items a week and am making more than I did teaching. It’s exciting for me, but also sad.

I source the majority of my items from the Goodwill bins where everything is $1.29 a lb. The amount of items brand new with tags is astonishing and scary. People buy buy buy with no intent it seems.”

Alex:

Wow, that is… it’s really disturbing that teachers are paid so little.

Amanda:

I know, teachers are paid very little. I also just thought it was a good call out here that most of the people I know who work in resale, resale don’t actually like go to the thrift store that often. They will go to the bins or estate sales or other, they buy lots from, you know, rag yards and things like that. So, it’s a lot of people who are not interested in resale are not interested in resale.

Alex:

Yeah, I think I’ve only maybe gone like, I don’t know, two times since the year started, personally. Yeah, this is interesting. Also, Sarah says that she has 1700 active listings.

Amanda:

whoosh

Alex:

That is so many listings.

Amanda:

So much work.

Alex:

I think it’s really hard for people to kind of get a grasp of what that looks like, but that means that she has 1700 items for sale in her home that she somehow sorted, organized, and you know she has to store them somewhere. When someone makes an order she has to be able to find the item that someone ordered out of all of those things. That is a lot of work. I feel like I’m like drowning in inventory and I have nowhere near that much stuff.

Amanda:

I mean, all just think about all the laundry and photos and measuring and copy and organizing and shipping and it makes me tired.

Alex:

And that’s on top of like her personal stuff, her children’s stuff, any other family member she has at home, you know,

Amanda:

Yeah.

Alex:

That’s a lot of work.

Amanda:

It’s hard work. It’s hard work. And I just want to say that again, that nobody is getting rich quick off of resale and nobody’s making a living off of resale without a lot of hard work.

Amanda:

Okay. So next we have Katherine.

Katherine said, “I studied fashion design and worked in the apparel industry for 7 years in product development and sourcing. During that time I became very troubled with the waste, pollution and labor abuses propagated by my industry. I left my full time position and enrolled in grad school full time to study textiles. In order to earn extra income during that time I decided to sell some of my own clothes on poshmark. I was surprised at how successful I was and decided to pursue reselling part time. Now, I typically source my items from thrift stores and estate sales…it’s not easy money and I’m not going to get rich off of it! It requires a lot of self discipline to continue sourcing and listing on a regular basis. But I do feel it’s a livable wage when breaking it down to an hourly level. Financially, I would have been better off to continue my career in a corporate role but I have decided for personal and ethical reasons to not pursue that right now.

I’ve come to know many other resellers since I’ve started my business. Most are really good people that are looking to support themselves and their family, not trying to rip people off! Reselling is a business that is accessible to many people who may struggle in a corporate or retail environment. It provides a viable economic opportunity for those that have significant family responsibilities, health issues or disabilities, or a lack of formal education.”

I think that specifically Poshmark has over the years sort of sold resale in a very MLM-y kind of way. Like, you can work from home and be with your family and get super rich, right? They never mind the gazillions of hours of work you’re gonna have to do. Probably that kind of messaging doesn’t help with this argument that or it does help, I guess, the argument that people are getting super rich off of resale. But I do think that whereas all of those failed MLMs like Lularoe or whatever other cosmetics and stuff have been forced on women who have families to support to sell as a way of both caring for their families and making money, those things failed. But resale does work in that it is an honest living, you know, but it is so much more work than I think anyone thinks like you don’t just like roll up to the Goodwill Don’t put much stuff in your trunk go home real quick listed on Poshmark and call it a day Like it’s just not how it works.

Amanda, not myself, but another Amanda says,

“I’ve worked retail and seen first hand all the product going to the landfill. I’ve tried to change the culture in my store. With little success.

I am currently a reseller on multiple platforms. I don’t make much money, but I save some things from the landfill. As a disabled human it’s what I can do.

I work hard to learn proper techniques to restore, repair and clean items to resell.

I literally dig through the crap at the Seattle Goodwill outlet to save things. I bring them home and wash them to see if they’re salvageable.

We are a society of people with excess money and excess goods. We do not care about recycling, reusing, or conserving.

It seems like my small contribution to society more than any sort of get rich scheme.”

Alex:

Yeah, and I think that another interesting thing that this touches on is that, similar to what Amanda said about having a disability and let’s see, Sarah, who has her family that she needs to stay home with, their resale is also such a huge resource for people who experience those same issues on the buying end. So there are so many people for themselves or they don’t have access to thrift stores. And the only way that they can shop secondhand is via resellers. So I feel like that makes this idea of taking away resources for people who need them to be even more disingenuous because then you’re completely disregarding the people who rely on the secondhand space in the same way that other people rely on thrift stores. You’re basically saying that like, I care about and want to defend the underprivileged people but then you don’t care about the people who you need like online secondhand.

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah, you know, I think, I think a lot about how, you know, I have issues with the way the big platforms are run. And I do think that they are not very fair to the sellers themselves.

Alex:

Yeah, absolutely.

Amanda:

They’re certainly very accessible and easy for the buyers, right? But I am glad that they exist because what we have to realize is like people have been struggling economically for decades for as long as there have been humans really, but especially, I mean, we walk through it, it started in the 70s, right? And it’s been getting worse every decade. And in the past, if you were really struggling financially, what could you do? You could get a second job, maybe. Good luck if you have kids or health issues that prevent you from being able to do that, right?

You could sell Tupperware or something odd like that, that was probably super predatory as well. I had a friend whose family needed extra money and her mom would do this thing where they were They would send like a huge box of all these little tiny things that needed to be assembled and the whole family would do it all weekend long.

Alex:

Interesting.

Amanda:

Yeah, that was like a weird work from home thing you could do, right?

There weren’t a lot of jobs you could do from home and there weren’t a lot of jobs you could do if you didn’t have the option of working outside the house, period. Like if you weren’t a good fit for corporate culture, which many of us are not, right? You know, it’s now more than ever, there is this other option there that it can be your full income or help you cover your bills because we know that wages out there are not doing that job on their own. And if you only work one job and are doing well financially, you’re a really lucky person because that is just not the world we live in right now. And so once again, like, I hate. I mean, I hate. but I really feel it. I hate that there’s so much vitriol directed towards people who are just trying to live and participate in this world and support themselves in a way that isn’t totally gross and, you know, exploitive. Like…

Alex:

And again, I do think that it is providing a service for people who do need it.

You know, there are a lot of people who live in very rural areas, people who don’t have any access to reliable transportation, or people who are working multiple jobs during the only hours that the thrift stores are open. Like, not everyone can go thrifting. There are a lot of people out there who cannot go to the thrift store for a multitude of reasons. And I think that it seems really unfair to say that resellers are the villain. They’re taking everything out of the thrift store, but then what like the people who can’t go to the thrift store like oh Well, they just don’t get to shop secondhand then or they only shop secondhand through what corporations?

I don’t like those options. Secondhand creates jobs for people reselling and then it’s also giving people alternate means to be part of the secondhand economy

Amanda:

Yeah, yeah, I, you know, I’m glad that you touched on this and we’re gonna get to a little bit more later that the current resale climate, specifically these online platforms, allows people to have access to secondhand clothing who normally don’t have access to thrifting, right?

And I did a post about that a few months ago, just like really untangling the privilege of thrifting because I was tired of people showing up and being like, I don’t know what is wrong with people who don’t shop secondhand or who don’t go to thrift stores. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. So let me tell you all the reasons I haven’t been able to thrift in the past, right? And someone showed up in the comments on that post and just would like, I think sometimes you, your brain gets into a situation where you’re like fighting for this belief of yours and you just get backed into a corner that you can’t get out of. But this person was just like, I refuse to accept. There’s no one who doesn’t have access to thrifting. Thrifting isn’t a privilege for anyone, blah, blah. Do you have time? Do you have small children? You might not be able to go. Do you have health issues?

Alex:

There are so many different reasons that you are not able to thrift. And also, there are people who don’t like it, which is also fair. Like, some people don’t wanna go to the thrift store. They don’t like it, they don’t enjoy it. Some people have a really hard time looking at something on a rack and kind of envisioning what it might look like or how it might fit on someone. And a lot of thrift stores don’t have fitting rooms where people don’t feel comfortable using them. And so like what, all of those people just like too bad for you. drop second hand, like it just doesn’t make any sense to me.

Amanda:

Here’s something that I see coming up all the time. It’s this argument that if you’re shopping at a thrift store and you’re not poor, then you shouldn’t be shopping there.

Alex:

Oh,

Amanda:

But we also don’t want people to resell stuff online? So explain to me, are we saying that unless you are very poor, you should be buying fast fashion? Because those are kind of our options here. You can shop secondhand, which would mean either going to thrift stores or buying from resellers online. or you can go buy something from Zara or Shein or H&M or any Madewell or go up the ladder in pricing. It’s all made with the same exploitive model, right?

Amanda:

No matter what, if you’re going out, if you’re saying, oh, you don’t get to participate in Secondhand because you’re “rich” or whatever it is, then I guess you just have to buy brand new stuff. What then, so you don’t care about the planet at all, right? And you don’t care about all the workers making all that stuff, right?

Alex:

And another point that someone mentioned earlier in one of the audio essays was that these thrift stores wouldn’t be able to sustain business if that were the case.

If resellers were banned and there was some sort of income threshold for who was allowed to shop there, or even if people were like, oh, it’s the ethical thing for me not to shop there because I can afford not to, the thrift stores would close. Like they, you know, low income people, Again, they’re low income. They cannot afford to go in there and buy tons and tons of product and spend tons and tons of money. These are businesses. They wouldn’t stay open.

So then what? Then thrifting for nobody.

Amanda:

Right? And then everything goes to landfill, I guess.

Alex:

Like why? Why? Why is that the option?

Amanda:

Yeah, exactly. You know, something, a phenomenon I noticed, because I read so many, so many pieces across the internet front, college newspapers, local papers, personal blogs, substacks, you name it. I wanted to understand every argument against reselling and against thrifting. I just wanted to know what everybody was saying. And I was telling Dustin, I was like, yeah, I noticed this phenomenon, like 10 articles in, that it was basically like I could identify the financial class, the economic class, of the person writing the piece based on who they were scapegoating for ruining thrifting. So if you said it was middle class people ruining it, then I knew Lower income. If you said it was upper middle class people, which I saw a lot. I was like, Oh, so you’re middle class. Okay. Check, check. If I saw one percenters, another one I saw thrown

around, I was like, okay, so you like, do you have a trust fund? Like how rich are you? You know, and it just was so funny to me. It was like, I always have to scapegoat someone. Someone has to be scapegoated, right? But it has to be someone who has more money than me. And I’m going to be really honest with all of you, probably no one who was upper middle class or wealthier is buying from resellers online or at the thrift store because they are probably if they are buying secondhand clothes, they are buying very high end expensive pieces. You

know, they’re going after like vintage Chanel. They’re not fighting with you over a pair of Madewell jeans.

Alex:

Yeah, no, those people are buying on The Real Real or First Dibs or yeah, I have friends who, you know, do styling or like interior decor with very, very affluent clients. And those people do not want stuff from the thrift store.

Amanda:

No! No!

Alex:

They don’t even want stuff from like a flea market or an estate sale. Like they, yeah, they have something very specific in mind and it is something that none of us can afford.

Amanda:

One time Dustin and I did roll up to a thrift store back in Pennsylvania and there was a lavender limousine in the parking lot and we were cracking up so hard. I was like, why do rich people have to ruin everything? But it was like a really beat up old limo that someone was driving as a car and had clearly painted lavender. But it was a pretty funny moment for us because you know, yeah, you’re not gonna see one percenters at the Goodwill.