Episode 130: Meet Nicole of Swap Society

Welcome to Clotheshorse, the podcast that hasn’t washed its face in ten years.

I’m your host, Amanda.

And this is episode 130, part of an ongoing series about circularity, with a specific focus on circular fashion and how it relates to slow fashion. Today’s guest is sort of a “two for one” of information: Nicole Robertson had a career in beauty (and she’s got some wisdom to share), before starting Swap Society in 2017. Swap Society is an online clothing swap that is really redefining how the clothing swap –usually an IRL event–can exist virtually via technology and an alt-currency called SwapCoin. So you’re kinda getting two episodes in one today! First, we’ll hear about her experiences in the beauty industry, and then we’ll shift into the hows and whys of Swap Society. And spoiler: Nicole will literally burst into song at one point, which we just don’t have enough of around here!

July marks Clotheshorse’s two year anniversary! I can’t believe it because the time has gone so fast! But on July 12th, 2020 I released the first episode of Clotheshorse, with my friend Janine as our inaugural guest.

I have a special episode planned to commemorate this auspicious occasion: I’m going to share my own path from fast fashion to Clotheshorse, my own journey if you will! I receive a lot of requests for that! So here you go! And guess what? I want to hear more about your journey, too!

What made you start to care more about sustainability, particularly in regards to things you wear?

What changes were most difficult? What were the easiest?

How do you think slow fashion could be more accessible to others?

And how do you find yourself making changes on a regular basis? Do you have any tips for others?

Okay, but what is an audio essay?

It’s a recording you make–using either your phone or your computer.

You email it to me at [email protected], and I edit and mix it, and add it to an episode. I will not accept written essays for this.

I recommend that you write it all out, then record it. It’s okay if you make a mistake while recording, just say that part again and keep talking. I’ll edit it when I put it in the episode!

Record in a quiet room, away from fans/air conditioners.

The deadline for this project is July 1, so you have a few weeks to get this done. Your recording should be anywhere from 3 minutes to 10 minutes long.

Some of you have been reaching out to ask if it’s okay to submit again if you’ve been on the show in the past. Of course it is! Clotheshorse is nothing without its community. And we’ve been building relationships with one another! I just returned from San Francisco a few hours ago, and this weekend I got to have dinner with Dani of Picnicwear (Yep, my first time meeting her IRL) and I spent the afternoon with Susan Massey (also my first time meeting her) and both felt like old friends! So share your stories!!

I’ve been hearing from a lot of you regarding last week’s episode about raghouses and the ethical umm…shortcomings of the textile “recycling” industry. Basically, the consensus is “I can’t believe–except I’m not surprised–that many of these companies are not paying good wages or providing safe workplaces.” Some of you who visit these raghouses pretty regularly have agreed that yes, something always seemed a little “suspicious” about the work environment. And many of you have lamented that even the secondhand industry has ethical shortcomings.

And it’s true! You’ve all heard that saying “there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism.” The intended meaning there is that anything purchased in a capitalist system is inherently unethical because making that purchase indirectly supports a capitalist system that in most cases relies on exploitation.

Let’s take a moment to think about that idea again: “There’s no ethical consumption under capitalism.”

In its purest sense, it says that anything you consume (from food to shoes to jeggings to gas) indirectly (and sometimes super directly) upholds a system that relies on exploitation, inequality, waste, and the suffering of living things.

Wow.

That’s a lot, to say the least.

And people tend to have one of two reactions to this idea:

One is the “well I give up” approach of “if everything is wrong, I might as well buy a Keurig and have a SHEIN shopping spree.” I regularly see “well, there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism” thrown around VERBATIM on social media as an excuse/defense for fast fashion hauls, drinking only bottled water, using the aforementioned Keurig, or just generally being wasteful. I’ve even heard this phrase used to defend…get ready…buying items from fast fashion brands that are based on art and designs stolen from smaller designers and artists.

Yeah, we exist within some pretty fucked up systems. But using that as an excuse to overconsume, to acquire yet another “haul” of something, to support companies that steal from artists and designers…well, that’s just some selfish, highly privileged behavior right there. Ultimately using the idea that “everything is oppression” to then you know, fund oppression, is the equivalent of throwing a lit cigarette into a burning building because it’s already on fire. Yeah, but we don’t need more fire in there! It’s cynical, it’s lazy, and it’s just so selfish.

As we’ve talked about around here quite a bit, a better world will require societal changes, larger systemic changes, and yes, personal changes. Climate change is a great way to unpack that idea:

Yes, industries will need to find a way to lower their own carbon emissions by utilizing renewable energy and changing their infrastructure.

To get there, governments will have to pass regulations on all of these industries, as well as funding research and development in renewable energy and other efficiencies.

Transport of all types will need to switch to renewable energy sources. And so on a personal level, we’ll have to switch into electric cars, scooters, lawn mowers, you name it.

And furthermore, the way our cities and towns are designed will have to change, too. Less sprawl, more access to public transportation, more local hubs for groceries, pharmacies, health care, education, etc.

And so the way our society–especially here in the United States–travels through their days will have to change. More people on public transportation, riding bikes, carpooling, or just walking places…because they can.

Sure, the bigger changes will start at the top but everyone will have to change.

The same goes for how we consume and how much we consume, from clothes to electronics to throw pillows. We have to buy less, reuse more. Repair things, share things, you know the whole spiel by now. If you’re listening to this episode right now, you’re in a more privileged position than the people who actually make the things we buy on a mass scale. Use that privilege to make change in your own life and influence others. Yeah, I know the world and its truths gets exhausting and depressing, but it’s only going to get more exhausting and depressing if we ignore it and continue to buy 12 bathing suits when we only needed 1 or 2.

However, you’re listening to this episode so you’re probably not falling into this first reaction of “I give up/Let’s shop.” You’re more like “OH MY GOD WHAT CAN I DO THAT ISN’T HARMFUL TO PEOPLE AND THE PLANET?!” And that is a super overwhelming, paralyzing place to be. When buying a carton of strawberries fills you with guilt because the container is plastic and you wonder if the workers picking them were exploited and if pesticides were used or water was diverted for irrigation that could have been used for drinking.

Yeah, this is every day of my life.

But you know what, sometimes you just want some damn strawberries. And that’s okay.

For a lot of you, hearing that there was exploitation happening in the textile recycling industry was just gutting. And I get it. A lot of us shop secondhand because it feels so much more ethical and sustainable than buying fast fashion. And it’s often just as affordable as new fast fashion clothes (although obviously nothing can compete with some of those prices out there). To hear that even secondhand clothing can be unethical is just…well…gutting, right?

I’m always skeptical of black and white thinking. You know like “this is right/this is wrong.” Or “this is the best/this is the worst.” Because unfortunately we’re all living within a system where nothing is purely “good” and the purely “bad,” well, it exists, unfortunately, but even digging into the layers there would probably uncover someone along the way with good intentions.

I regularly receive a lot of messages asking me “what is the best way to shop?” And I always take pause there because that question almost feels like asking me to explain the size of the universe. Like, it’s complicated, right?

I do a lot of mental exercises when there’s something I need to buy. Nothing is ever simple. I always start with a secondhand first approach. Like, if I can find it secondhand, there are a few benefits there:

No new materials are created

That item isn’t ending up in a landfill instead

I’m not putting money into a billionaire’s pockets.

As an added bonus, I might be able to buy it from another PERSON, keeping money within the working class.

But as you all know, I can’t always find everything secondhand. And then I go through the exercise of trying to find the best route forward with something new.

I try to shop with a local business.

I do a lot of research and consideration about what I’m trying to buy, looking for the most long-lasting and easily maintained item. No impulsive purchases!

I consider if I really truly need this thing or if there is another way around it.

And ultimately, I make a commitment to that thing. I’m going to take care of it, get the most use out of it, and thoughtfully rehome it when I’m done.

But of course, buying something secondhand from a thrift store might indirectly support underpaying disabled workers and paying huge bonuses to executives (I’m looking at your Goodwill). Or it might be indirectly supporting the unsafe and exploitative work environments of the textile recycling industry.

Buying something new definitely means more resources used, wage theft, unsafe work conditions, and a long list of other bad things.

This is what keeps me up at night and gives me a permanent stomach ache.

But this is where “progress not perfection” comes into play. Acknowledging and accepting that we are not set up for an easy “best” or “perfect” choice is important, but surrendering to that and giving up is not an option.

Making these decisions thoughtfully. Assuming the responsibility for the lifespan of the things we buy and own. Knowing that nothing is actually disposable. Buying less and frankly, buying better (because we’ve put so much thought into it). These things are impactful, especially when we are modeling this behavior for those around us and educating others. Significant change will require a larger societal behavioral shift, and that starts with us. Social trends start with a few, spread through more and more groups, until they become second nature for everyone. Don’t believe me? Women wearing pants, same sex marriage, social media as a means of maintaining relationships and even running a business….yeah, these were all things with early adopters that spread until they were just another regular thing. Yeah, I know there are people out there who still haven’t accepted same sex marriage, but wow, they must spend a lot of time feeling angry every day and I hope they figure it all out soon.

I guess what I’m saying here is this: you are doing a great job. Keep up the good work! Yes, it’s work but it’s important and while doing the right thing can feel overwhelming, exhausting, frustrating..am I forgetting a negative adjective here…it’s all worthwhile. At the same time, don’t get caught up in the pursuit of perfection, because the world we live in right now is not set up for that. It just doesn’t exist. That doesn’t mean you should give up, but know that as long as you’re thinking about the things you buy or don’t buy. As long as you’re putting in the work, as long as you’re putting in the commitment to be responsible and do the best you can…well, you’re contributing to larger progress and that’s really important. Be proud of yourself and don’t give up! I promise you have this whole growing group of people who are working alongside you! We see you and we’re proud of you, too!

A CONVERSATION WITH NICOLE

Amanda

All right, Nicole, why don’t you introduce yourself to everybody?

Nicole

Hi, I’m Nicole Robertson, and I’m the founder of Swap Society, an online clothing swap for women and kids that makes it easy and affordable to mix up your wardrobe sustainably.

Amanda

That’s a great elevator pitch.

Nicole

Thanks.

Amanda

So Nicole, I feel like we get a lot of people, every person who comes on this podcast, who, whether they work in fashion, or they work in some other area, has had a journey that has definitely at least began in nothing to do with what they’re doing right now. Right. And you are no exception, because your background actually begins in beauty. And that’s what we’re going to talk about first tonight, because this is a area that I am both a consumer of, and I am obsessed with unlocking the mysteries of it. So why don’t you a little tell us a little bit about your career in beauty?

Nicole

Sure, well, I was a professional dancer and singer. And when I was in school, and studying all of the various, you know, performing arts requirements, I had to take a stage makeup class, it was a required class, and the teacher was a makeup artist and an actor and a director. And he said, you know, if you’re a makeup artist, you’ll never have to wait tables. And I thought, Oh my God, that sounds so much better than waiting tables way more fun.

Amanda

Definitely. I mean, what, what great advice.

Nicole

Oh my god, it changed my life. I feel like I need to find him. And reach out to him because this was a really long time ago. And who knows if he even remembers me. But I feel like those words had such a big impact on my personal life that I feel like I should, he should just know that.

Amanda

I support this.

Nicole

But anyhow, so I promptly got myself a job working at a Merle Norman boutique. And so if you don’t know what that is, is a really old school beauty brand. And I worked there for a while and I learned a lot about skincare and makeup and how to do makeup. And I use that as a as a jumping point to go over to Bloomingdale’s Michigan Avenue where I worked for eat Santa Hongbo Tei. And I did that for a while, but I was also in school. So I was studying and I was dancing, and I was performing and I was either doing a million things at once. And so I was pretty good at it. i It turned out that I was a good makeup artist, and also a good salesperson, which for anyone who’s worked retail jobs, you know, if you sell well, you get rewarded. Yeah, sure, we can dive into that a little bit more as well. But, um, basically, I did that for a while. And then I started freelancing. So I was a makeup artists that would do pop up events, you know, if friends one ours came to town, I, you know, I was in Chicago at the time. So I would, you know, go do an event, all the stores that he was at, or Bobby Brown or you know, whatever other. I’ve worked for a lot of different PD brands. And so I did that, and I did some editorial, but Chicago is not a huge editorial city. And, you know, it was nice, it was flexible, and I could still have my crazy dance schedule, and my singing out at night schedule, and it was all kind of creative, and it all tied in together. You know, and then eventually I had opportunities to work for brands, and it was enticing. I got my first account executive job with a beauty brand. And I did that for about a year. But, you know, it didn’t pay as well. It wasn’t as flexible. And, you know, I went back to freelancing, but then, you know, then I got lured back in, you know, I got sucked back into the corporate side and the promise of a salary and health benefits, which I have been without for many, many years of my life.

Amanda

Feeling I know too well. I’m like yes, yes.

Nicole

And, and so I just really started working for beauty brands on the corporate side. And also then I went on to the retailer side, I worked for some of the early beauty ecommerce sites. I launched a beauty subscription box. I did a lot of different jobs within the industry and had I stayed in the beauty industry. I could have just kept climbing that ladder, but it became a little lackluster. For me one of the jobs that I had was I was a beauty buyer for a very trendy retailer. And you know, one of the things that I just really learned in that moment was Wow, a lot of people create beauty brands. It’s It’s insane. Yeah,

Amanda

I was listening I to the, to the radio last week and someone, it was like, oh, like now Nicki Minaj has a skin brand or something. And I was like, what? Why? Why does everyone have a beauty brand?

Nicole

Well, they want to make money, they see an opportunity to make money. And but but at the same time, what does a singer or an actor in general, this isn’t a rule, but what do any of those people know about skincare, right? Or formulating good products or any of that, right? But the it’s interesting, because the injured, the industry has really made it very, very easy for people to create their own brands. Because there are a number of labs that will fill for you and a number I mean, crazy amount of companies that make packaging, I used to go to a beauty show and Paris once a year, which was a super fun trip. And actually, I mean, it was great, I got to see a lot of things from around the world that I wouldn’t necessarily have seen here in the States. And so it was, it was it was really cool. I mean, I had a lot of really good times. But I mean, we’re talking about massive convention centers filled with what feels like a million vendors selling different types of packaging and different types of ingredients.

Amanda

Oh my gosh, I didn’t even think of that. But yeah, like it would be a lot.

Nicole

Yeah, I mean, when you go to a beauty trade show, you really see the magnitude of kind of, you know what’s happening on the back end. And you know, and if you’re a buyer, and you’re at a place that everybody wants their stuff to be sold, you see more than maybe, maybe some other buyers might see depending on where you are. And I just I just had this feeling thinking the world doesn’t need another beauty brand. And some people though, would come up with something really cool and fun that I loved. I did discover some really wonderful products that way. And I have to say that I love really good beauty products. So anything that comes across while we’re talking as negative isn’t so much about that part of it as much as maybe a critique of just the world in general, I guess and how crazy how crazy not only fashion but how crazy the beauty industry has gotten as well. I think that the level of consumption is really over the top I even see it in my buy nothing group I’m really active in my buy nothing group and it’s amazing how much stuff people give away beauty product wise. Oh, emptying out the beauty drawer. And it’s like a huge mountain of fragrance and skincare and makeup. Oh, I used it once. And then it’s like, Oh, why are people buying so much of the stuff that they don’t need?

Amanda

Yeah, no, the struggle is real man, you just triggered something for me because I will preface this by saying that I love makeup. I love skincare. I’ve been devoted a devoted care of my skin for my whole life. And I have like products that I really rely on and believe in. But about a month ago, I ordered something from Sephora for like the first time in a really long time. I’ve just kind of like backed away from the Sephora over. Like since the pandemic I was like, I don’t think I like Sephora anymore. And I, I ordered something and it was like took like two, maybe three weeks to get to me. And I was really scandalized by how long it was taking. And I was like, This is why Ulta is winning this battle, by the way. And I went onto Reddit and I looked on the Sephora, there’s of course there’s a Sephora subreddit on Reddit. And I did learn that a lot of people are really upset about the shipping issues. But what I learned even more is that people have a shopping problem with Sephora, like everybody was posting pictures of their halls, and it was appalling. And I was like you’re not even gonna use all this stuff and I would read the captions. i It was like an hour or two I was just laying on the couch getting progressively more upset where people are like, I’ve never used this before. I’m gonna try this like skincare thing like all this random skincare that people were buying and I was like, that’s not how it works. You can’t just switch up your products like just because, you know,

Nicole

well Well. Well. I might disagree a little bit. I mean having been a buyer and kind of us to a million different products all the time, I was basically a guinea pig. And, and I was totally fine. I mean, I don’t happen to have any, you know, beauty product allergies or anything like that, which might make that a little sketchy or for some people if they have really sensitive skin. But I think that and this is this is my perspective, I think that so long as you are actually taking care of your skin, the actual products that you were using, they matter but not as much as people might think it matters or as much as beauty brands want you to think it matters, you know, so much of it is just branding, and marketing. And I mean, a lot of the products, sometimes things that you might find at Sephora, or a fancy department store might be the same exact thing that you’re getting at the drugstore. Yeah, um, you know, and so I think that a lot of people aren’t aware of that, especially bigger companies that have multiple brands under their umbrellas. Sometimes what’s inside the package is exactly the same as you know, from from a drugstore brand of theirs might be exactly the same as what you’re getting from their higher price.

Amanda

It’s true. I remember the first time someone told me that it floored me. And then I was like, Yeah, of course, of course it is like I get it now. Not always right. But it is true. Like my friend worked as a chemist in the skincare area. And she was telling me this was like 10 years ago just like changed my life. She was like, you know, a lot of the larger companies like for example, I don’t know if L’Oreal is the name of the parent company. But obviously it’s like a massive organization. And I’m by no means here telling you to go shop L’Oreal, but they they have they invest so much money in technology and product development that the drugstore stuff you can buy from their lines is really good.

Nicole

I believe that? I mean, I think that, I mean, I guess that’s the point. I mean, you if I think that, you know, if somebody were to really kind of pull back the curtain on the beauty industry, I think it would shock a lot of people because all we see are the fun ads of the models with the perfect skin and the perfectly applied makeup and they look so happy and perfect. And it’s like by this and your life will also be perfect. And it’s like well, maybe but but but maybe not.

Amanda

Yeah, I mean, I think like something that I have noticed a lot just as a person who does have a lot of curiosity and interest in beauty products is I have seen the fast fashion ification of beauty. Even as far as like some of the fast fashion brands that I worked for a few years ago, not really as much now I think the pandemic disrupted beauty in a lot of ways. But like pre pandemic, were sort of like, oh, we should make our own beauty line. Because that’s where the money is. Or we should carry all these other beauty brands even look back to forever 21 Watching those Riley rose stores, which they then had to close. During the pandemic, one of my former friend will steal my friend, one of my former co workers from Nasty Gal actually help them launch this like beauty concept. And everybody in the fashion industry like in that mass fast fashion. A segment was like, there’s so much money to be made and makeup. And like you said, you can get people to just fill it fill the packaging for you, right?

Nicole

Obviously retailers, they’re always looking to up the AU s which is averaging at sale, right like they want, how much bigger can they make each sale. And so if they have people that are shopping in their store, and they’re there and they’re buying clothes, they have an attentive person that they can get to buy more stuff. And so I think if you think of it from a business perspective, yeah, it makes sense. It makes sense that more and more clothing retailers want to be a part of the beauty game because they see how profitable the beauty industry is. At the same time. Yeah, it feels it feels kind of gross to me how it’s just over the top. It’s just like to feel like it’s just too much too much.

Amanda

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s just like, there’s so much everywhere, everywhere. And I like what you’re talking about, like how it kind of sells you this promise. Like, right now you don’t feel great about yourself, but guess why, like, we have this quick fix for it and I’ve totally bought stuff for that reason.

Nicole

Yeah, I mean, and it it’s, I think one of The big things that beauty marketers prey upon is that insecurity that most women probably have about how they might look at any given moment. And so I think that that’s the part that I really dislike, I suppose if I were to really dissect it and, you know, aside from its like, overconsumption, and you know, exploitative marketing, I don’t know if those are the things that I don’t like about it, it’s kind of like, I love you know, I love really nice skincare haircare I know what I love, I have my favorite things. They aren’t even all sustainable, or natural or eco. But it’s kind of like, I’ve spent a big chunk of my lifetime kind of figuring out what the things are that work well for me and that I like and so, you know, I tend to just gravitate back to those things, you know, without taking the step of kind of trying a million a million new things again, I think I just had so much of that. Just kind of like, oh my god, I’m I’m done. But and I love getting a new lipstick every once in a while I love makeup. I think that you know, I love wearing makeup, I think that I prefer the way that I look with makeup, even if I’m going natural, where I might not look made up per se I still I still see the value for me personally and doing that. And and am I a product of that system? Sure. I you know, you could you could say that I that I am. But I think it’s fun and creative. So I think that that’s the part that I really love about it is the creativity I love that I can do my makeup and a ton of different ways. And I just feel a little different, or like a different person. I like a lot of variety. I like a lot of variety. In my wardrobe. I like variety and how I wear my makeup. I like variety and what I eat, I can’t eat the same thing every day, you know, my husband could eat the same thing every day. And so he does for breakfast. And it’s just, that sounds like hell to me, like I can’t eat the same thing every day, I just get super tired of stuff. So I’m like, I’m a variety.

Amanda

Yeah, I know, I get that I’m the same way I I think I’d make up just like clothing often, you know, and beauty as a whole often gets dismissed because it’s something that’s associated with women. And like all things that women like it’s kind of shed upon by a certain segment of society. Right. And so yeah, you know, I’ve been seeing it like, for example, like for a month or a month or two ago, everybody was like all over how terrible True Crime content is, even though like it’s primarily consumed by women, or not, even though it’s primarily consumed by women, probably because it’s primarily consumed by women. And I think that there is what people miss, when the nuance when they say like, oh, makeup is stupid, it’s not essential. If they miss that there’s a lot of artistry involved in it, that it really can have an add to your mental health, to your perception of self to your confidence. It’s all part of expressing yourself. And on top of that, it is a huge industry that makes so much money, like it is a big business. So I have I have some questions for you about like shirts like to work in beauty, because I’ve only seen it from afar. You know, something that I was thinking about this morning, as I was hanging out laundry, is how the fashion industry itself is really like the people at the top who like bring in the most profit, like bring in the money, really, the people have the power and the money are men, right? And in most cases, they are white men. And then when you go into the offices and see who’s actually doing the work, perhaps even in the factories, it’s all women, right? And it’s the industry that is primarily also fueled by women financially, yet, once again, men are primarily who’s making benefiting from the industry, right? So in fashion that sets people women up for a very strange, often toxic work culture. I was wondering what it’s like to work in beauty and is it like that? Is it so female powered when it comes to the actual work?

Nicole

It depends on the company, obviously. But I would say, you know, just to give a broad stroke. I think it’s very, very similar to fashion in the sense that I think a majority of the people and the very, very top positions are white men.

Amanda

That’s about right. Yeah.

Nicole

But obviously it’s an industry that a lot of women work in and there are a lot of women that are, you know, executive level, but probably less frequently the CEO for X Apple, unless unless you know it’s a woman that started the brand, which changes it. But oh my gosh, I’ve worked in some unbelievably toxic environments.

Amanda

I don’t know why I’m glad I’m laughing. Like, that’s what like my feel like my LinkedIn profile Heading should be.

Nicole

I’ve survived toxic environment. Yeah. Oh my gosh, it’s really crazy. And obviously, you know, I’m not gonna give specific company names or people’s names out or whatever. But I mean, I’ve had to deal with sexual harassment to the level where I’ve had to get legal representation. Wow. I’ve had to deal with having a boss that screamed, you know, 75% of the time. I was just they’re really abusive. Um, yeah, I’ve I’ve actually had multiple screaming bosses. And I would say that, and pretty much all of them have been men, most of them have been men. So I’ve the toxic environments. Yeah, it’s like, oh, well, here I was, you know, working my butt off. Because I’m, you know, very much that type a hard working, all work, no play kind of person. And I’m really working on that I’m doing a lot of internal work. And I’m trying,

Amanda

I understand. Like, this is, I mean, we were talking beforehand, and I was like, you know, how it is when you just kind of like, always work all the time and never say no, to anyone. Yeah, exactly.

Nicole

I mean, I, there was a job that I did where the entire first year, I didn’t take a single day of Chinese. And, you know, and then you know, and then when I finally did want to take some time off, I, you know, I got crap for it, basically, you know, where it was, like, a struggle to take some time. It’s like, that kind of environment. I’ve also worked with some really amazing people, some people that have become some of my best friends, you know, when I worked for YSL, way, way, way, way back in the day, I worked with someone who was the man of honor at my wedding, who became one of my closest and dearest friends, and we’re still friends. And we work together at other companies after that, and, and, you know, I’ve made so many amazing friendships with people in the industry. So it’s also full of really cool, artsy, interesting, people that I love. But it but it’s, but it’s a mix. I think a lot of people that work in fashion feel that way. I think that, you know, it’s like, it can feel exciting, it can feel glamorous, you know, oh, I’m at Fashion Week, and, you know, sitting in the second row or whatever, you know, things that I’ve experienced, like, Oh, I’m getting the royal treatment at the spa in Paris, because, you know, I bought their stuff, you know, or whatever it is, like, I’ve had so many cool experiences, you know, in my career that I am super grateful that I’ve been able to have those experiences, but it doesn’t take away the fact that a lot of it is really toxic and negative and hard to deal with. When especially when you are working so hard. And you know, it’s like, even if you’re doing a really great job, it doesn’t mean that you won’t be in an abusive and

Amanda

yeah, it’s true. And actually, that was like a really hard thing for me to like, Finally, accept that in some of the places I worked. It didn’t matter how many hours I put in a week, or how great my work was, or how much money I made for the company. It was still going to be an abusive environment. Yeah.

Nicole

Yeah. And then it’s weird. It’s like, like, Oh, I’m getting so much from you. Let me let me take more.

Amanda

Yeah, absolutely. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s like leaving that like, for me, leaving fashion was probably the best thing I ever did for my mental health, because I don’t feel like someone’s gonna yell at me at any moment or humiliate me, or just expect that I work seven days a week.

Nicole

But it’s weird. Isn’t it just strange how and I don’t know about a lot of other industries because I haven’t worked in a lot of other industries. But I can’t help but think that that’s just so unprofessional. How, how is this so pervasive, right, how is this type of treatment pervasive? At the same time, I want to say that after I left the beauty industry, I actually became VP of Marketing for a bio plastics manufacturer, which was toe Literally male dominated, I mean, almost all men at every level. And you know, and it was a very different vibe. And I remember thinking, Ah, nobody hugs in this industry. I’m so used to hugging, you know, yeah, you see a client or a colleague and you hug them. And I know that that’s not normal in most businesses, but in fashion and beauty, it’s totally normal.

Amanda

Oh, my God, I know, when you just pointed that out. I was like, Wait, you’re telling me that other people don’t hug? At work? It’s very true. I would like hug my vendors hug different people I worked with, there’s a lot of hugging in the fashion industry. And I think that goes back to it being like, around beauty being these like female fueled industries. It’s not to say that everyone who works in the industry is a woman. But the vast majority are, you know, my, my first buying job was the company I worked for the longest. We all sat in open seating like it was just one huge floor. And we sat in rows, very common, right. And there were a couple of offices along one length of the building. And that’s where the executive side and everybody in an office was male. And every single person working in the open seating was a woman. Wow. Yeah. And I was like, Oh, wow, I’ll never get to have an office here. Like, I can see that. Here we are. It’s the 21st century. And I will never get to have an office at this job. But like, I know. It’s a very weird feeling. And that

Nicole

yeah, that’s it’s interesting to think about. And it’s, it is interesting. I mean, I guess, well, and I mean, we don’t have to get into politics, but it seems like you know, the patriarchy is really working to try to kind of, you know, take charge again. But I think that we as women, we are doing so much of the work. And we are also the people doing the majority of the purchasing on all different levels for our households. We have more power than I think we realize, and I believe that collectively, the more we can come together, the more we can effectuate change, or meaningful change.

Amanda

Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I actually, after I thought about how everybody who works in fashion industry is a woman. I started to think about how excited I am about how it seems to me that the sustainability and slow fashion movement is led by women. Like we’re finally we’re running the show, you know, and that’s incredible to me. Of course, it doesn’t pay Well, currently. Like, it’s amazing, right? Like, like, maybe, maybe one of the ways we subvert the fashion industry, as it exists right now, is by taking back the control or take, I guess it’s not taking it back. So we never had it taking the control taking the control. Yeah.

Nicole

Yeah, that would be cool. I mean, at least as far as you know, it’s necessary to really have meaningful change. I mean, obviously, the fashion industry is destroying the planet. Yeah, you know, a really big problem. I think that there are a lot of men that are environmentalists that are working to try to make positive change as in that area, but it certainly doesn’t seem like that’s happening in the fashion side of it.

Amanda

Now, it seems a lot of there’s just like a lot of greenwashing and fakeness and doublespeak, and there are times where I get really like tinfoil hat conspiracy theory. And I think, oh, they think that we’ll fall for all this dumb greenwashing because they think we’re not very smart. Because we’re women. You know, ah, get gets you can get it you can get in there. I’m not saying that’s true everyone, but it does seem like it could someone thought it probably at some point, you know So

I imagine I could like talk about beauty all day, because it’s so fascinating to me, if you were going to dispel some big myths that you think a lot of customers have about beauty, what would they be? Hmm.

Nicole

That’s a big question. Well, I would say, and I kind of touched on this earlier, I think that this idea that you have to kind of find a certain regimen and stick to it, and you can’t I hear it all the time.

Amanda

I hear it all the time.

Nicole

It’s like, well, of course, they’re going to say that they say that because they want you to buy everything from them. But it is possible to mix and match. I mean, if you’re doing something really aggressive, like peels and things that, you know, that may you know, and that kind of case, you know, yeah, maybe maybe stick with one brand while you’re doing that. At the same time, it’s it’s something where, you know, that’s not really true. I think that you need to cleanse your face every day. You know, exfoliate at least once a week, make sure you moisturize make sure you use an eye cream, it doesn’t hurt to use a serum under that moisturizer. I am a big believer because it really does kind of get a higher dose of active ingredients than you would get in a moisturizer. And so I think that you know, it’s just it’s good to take care of your skin. I think one thing people really should pay attention to though as well as what are the chemicals in your product? And this might sound weird to some people because I know some people that are 100% Clean beauty all the way and I and I do love clean beauty and I even make certain things for myself at home. I think that there’s this idea that you have to buy everything at a store and you really don’t. For example, you should never buy a body scrub. It’s a total waste of money. Just get some sugar or salt and stir a little coconut oil into it and make a paste and bam, you get a fresh scrub and you’re just wow,

Amanda

call it a day and idea. I’m not. I mean, I definitely exfoliate my face once a week, I use appeal from the ordinary that I swear by. But I don’t really exfoliate my body. And now I’m like, should I? Maybe it should? Oh, you should?

Nicole

Yeah, you know. And here I’m in LA here in LA. I haven’t been to one since before the pandemic, but they have a lot of Korean spas here are my favorite. They’re the best. And I mean, wow, do they really scrub you and get a really big and off? Yeah. And I’m really missing that. I feel like, it’s been so long since I’ve had an intense scrub like that I did buy myself some of those little mitts that they use. But I just don’t scrub myself for as long or as hard as now Do

Amanda

you have a pro it’s it’s like, I used to take myself to the Korean spa every year on my birthday and get the like hour long scrub. And you leave like a different person.

Nicole

You really do. I mean, you feel better. And if you think about it, your skin is your largest organ. And so, you know, it’s important to take care of it. And you know, at the same time, though, I think another myth and fallacy that a lot of people have, at least in American culture, is that you have to bathe every day. I think that, for me, it depends on you know, obviously, if I’m working out and I’m getting sweaty, I’m going to bathe, but it’s totally okay to bathe every other day, you know, you don’t have to shower all the time, especially if it’s winter, if you live in a cold climate, and your skin is really dry, you know, the more you bathe, actually the drier it can make your skin. And so I think that, you know, yeah, taking care of your body, the skin on your body is really, really important. And you know, the other thing is, you don’t have to buy a body lotion, necessarily, I think coconut oil is amazing, as you know, just for hydrating the body, when I go to the grocery store, I often get a jar for the kitchen, and then I get a jar for my back and

Amanda

read to me.

Nicole

Another one is you you shouldn’t wash your hair every day. I mean, maybe there are people that do that, I guess if you’re a swimmer or something, but you know, it’s really not good for your hair to wash it every day, I wash my hair, like every three days on average. You know, and anyone that spent a lot of time around hairdressers, which I have, you know, that’s been kind of beaten into me, you know, time and time again, like don’t wash every day, and you can really see a difference. So I think that oftentimes beauty brands want you to do it more often because they make more money if you use more product. And part of me even wonders if that’s sort of where our obsession with cleanliness has come from a little,

Amanda

my gosh, I thought the same thing. I mean, I’m constantly conspiracy theorizing to myself, but like about things like this.

Nicole

But then and I kind of went on some tangents, but I started talking about clean beauty, but I’m really, I’m really careful when I’m taking care of the majority of my body, I really make sure that things are really clean and natural most of the time. But on my face, I kind of make an exception for my face. And I had, you know, a conversate this conversation with the owner of a beauty brand once that I was talking with on a in a supposedly in a professional capacity. I have a funny story about that though. You know, and I told him that I said, Well, you know, I do use more, you know, non natural things on my face, and he’s like, Well, everything that goes into your skin goes into your bloodstream. And I said well, I know but I’m also vain and I like my anti aging skincare.

Amanda

Right right. I mean like I’m the same way you know I there has been a lot of thought lately on social media I which I mentioned to you before people have been sending me these posts that no one should use any skincare at all and that it’s all scab and I’m just going to say like, that’s just so untrue. Like I I can say I have an amazing skin thanks to years of very careful care of it.

Nicole

Oh, same I mean, my skin would not look as good as it does. If I didn’t take such good care of my skin. You know when I was a teenager And I got that job at Merle Norman. That was kind of my first dose of, of learning from these older women about how to take care of your skin and how important it is. And I think one of the big things that a lot of women do is they wait to start taking care of their skin, when they’re older, maybe when they’re in their 30s. And they’re starting to see their skin start to get fine lines or start to age, too much sun damage, partying, whatever. That’s the wrong time to start. I mean, I guess it’s better late than never. But the reality is that, once that type of damage happens, once you start getting those fine lines and wrinkles, you know, yeah, you can try to minimize them through skincare and treatments. But you can’t really erase that, regardless of whatever advertisement tells you that that can happen. And you better believe that beauty brands are very heavy users of Photoshop. So you know, it’s definitely a lot of smoke and mirrors. But I think that, you know, sometimes people will say, Why does your skin look like that at your age? And it’s like, well, I’ve been taking really good care of my skin since I was in my teens. And, and so I think that that’s just played a really important role. I also eat a healthy diet. I don’t smoke, you know, there are other things that can age the skin that don’t necessarily have to do with no use of skincare or what have you, but, but it really does make a difference. And so I sometimes you know, when I am talking with younger women, I’m always like, make sure you start using an eye cream. Gotta get an eye cream. Use it every day, twice a day, morning and night. Use your ring finger pat, pat, pat, you know, don’t pull the skin, all the little tips. Um, but I get it. I mean, I think that I understand how some people might be repulsed by the industry because I think it has gotten a little crazy. But I I think it’s I could not go without skincare. I can’t go a day without lip balm. My lips will crack and bleed. I cannot go without moisturizer on my face or skin. My skin is so dry. I just have naturally dry skin. I would look ashy and dull and oh, and it would hurt. It would itch. My skin itches. If I don’t moisturize it. Yeah, I don’t agree with that at all.

Amanda

Yeah, me either. And, you know, I will just say like, listen, we you and I are both the sort of people who, like we care about this, right? We are vain. I’m totally I am. So have I am feigned to a fault in some situations. And this matters to me, but it doesn’t have to matter to you. And, you know, I wish I didn’t care about getting older or what my face looks like, because it’s quite a burden at times. But alas, that’s who I am. And I’m not going to deny it. And like spite my face to prove a point, you know, so I do this, it doesn’t mean that you have to although everybody should be wearing sunblock as that is true. Yeah, yes, absolutely. Everybody should be wearing sunblock every day on your face. So if it helps you to remember by getting a moisturizer that has sunscreen in it great,

Nicole

I favor the more natural sunscreens as a pair as opposed to the chemical ones. So, you know, the titanium and zinc oxides, for example. And they’ve gotten a lot better. It’s, it’s not like before, when if you used the mineral sunscreens, you know, you looked super white.

Amanda

I remember

Nicole

they’ve really gotten better. And so yeah, I think it’s really I think it’s really important to take care of your skin. And, you know, and for and I think that you know, exactly, not everybody needs to care about makeup, or skincare or aging, I think, you know, there’s an artist that I follow on Instagram, and she talks a lot about ethics and fashion, but also a lot about, you know, the messages that magazines and beauty brands are sending to us telling us that we look old and ugly, and we need to become better by using these products. And I totally get and respect it. Like I love it. I love seeing her work. But you know, I know people that don’t shave I super respect that too. But I’m a shaver. I like to shave, I don’t like to have body hair, am I the product of this weird society that we live in, in that respect? Maybe but I also like we kind of talked about earlier. I don’t know. I mean, how I look and how I come across in the world is is a part of who I am. And so I guess I just like to have a little control over that. I don’t know if that’s the right word,

Amanda

but no, I totally get it. I think that You know, once again, like, a lot of the stuff tends to be dismissed as really frivolous. And, you know, that part of that is probably a backlash about the, like, the way it’s been sold to us for so long. And a lot of the, you know, dishonesty that is used to sell it to us. But I don’t think that that means there isn’t value in caring for your skin or feeling your best and doing what it is that makes you feel your best.

Nicole

Well, and also, if you’re a woman, and you’re out there in the public eye, or you’re a professional, and, you know, probably most industries, I think that if you’re a woman, for example, that doesn’t groom themselves, well, you’re probably not going to have as many opportunities. It depends on the industry. But it there are a lot of industries where what you wear, and how you groom yourself is a really important part of the culture and how you’re perceived. And so I guess you may as well have fun with it. I don’t know.

Amanda

Yeah, it’s true. Like, do I think it’s fair? No, but it’s where we are. And having worked in the fashion industry, these grooming standards are very high, like I saw them. Like, in the beginning, it was like, Oh, you better always have your nails done, right. And then it turned into, you better have lash extensions, like, you know, like, it got Wilder as, like, time passed, because beauty became more complicated and more service based. Grooming, if you will, became the norm. I mean, like, suddenly, it was like everyone was getting Botox, like, my friend got botox at the dentist, you know, like, things just progressed pretty fast. And I think for me, during the pandemic, and a lot of other people I was like, well, there’s like some things I just don’t want to be a part of anymore, that I’m not going to do and I feel great. But there were other things, I was like, I am gonna get up every day and put makeup on. It makes me feel good. Am I only going to see my husband today? Sure. But I’ll still feel good. You know, it helps me feel like I’m down to do some work. I’m like my best self. It’s my like normal life. It gave me like a, I think a sense of normalcy when everything was upside down. And so that’s why, like, I have such a complicated relationship with the beauty industry, because it is important part of my life. But I also get frustrated about the hyper consumption that it encourages. And I think there’s a lot of waste. There’s so much packaging waste, I feel like the industry has not evolved on packaging at all.

Nicole

You know, there was a point in time, this was a really long time ago, I was living in San Francisco. And this was before there were really clean beauty brands yet, you know, but I just started, you know, working in the industry, I was just so aware of the packaging, waste, and also the chemicals and the products and I started experimenting with making some of my own stuff. And I was researching, I was trying to find a company that made glass packaging, that was only recycled glass, which at that point didn’t exist yet. Like I couldn’t even find it. And I had resources for that kind of thing. And I was just not really finding what I was looking for. But ultimately, I didn’t have the resources to at that point to make my own brand. And I know how much it takes to do it. And I also was basically a slave for these other companies that I worked for. And so it never came to fruition. But I had so many fun ideas, but at the same time, you know that I was a buyer. And I thought oh, but Does the world really need another beauty brand? I know I keep saying?

Amanda

Yeah, I don’t know. Like, even despite, I mean, I’m sure like the pandemic had a massive impact on the beauty industry. Like I was hearing like oh skincare is up like lipstick is down you know, like that kind of thing. It totally makes sense to me. But I feel like there are more brands than ever right now.

Nicole

So here’s something interesting to think about you were talking about like certain product categories doing well. You know, it’s it might you might find this interesting, but even in times of recession and economic hardship, there are a few things that people still buy one is booze Okay, and then the other one is is makeup

Amanda

doesn’t matter guys me at all because even when I was at my most broke I would like find myself at Walgreens at like midnight perusing the aisles for like you had another shimmery pink eyeshadow. It was the odds Okay, or yeah you know another like a L’Oreal lip gloss in the sea. You met pinkish nude that I had, like in 30. Other incarnations, you know? Yeah, it’s

Nicole

a, it’s something where I think, you know, psychologically, you know, buying a new tube of lipstick, even if it’s a fancy brand, and it’s doesn’t make sense financially, if you’re trying to kind of like rein in, you know, rein in your spending, it’s still something small and inexpensive compared to other things that people might spend their money on. And so I think that, it is an interesting thing to think about, but brands are super aware of this, okay. And so, you know, and, and so much of how the beauty brands operate, and just as an industry as a whole, and I think the fashion industry is similar is based on data, right? They’re collecting all of this data on consumer behavior, and what they’re purchasing and when they purchase it, and why and, and all of those sorts of things. And so it’s, there’s a certain really interesting rhythm to it, when you’re on the business side of it, that’s, that’s different than what most people even ever think about. And then the other thing that I think is for anyone that might ever consider working in the beauty industry, I think a big myth that people have is that it’s just fun all the time.

Amanda

It’s definitely not, I could tell you that, Oh, my

Nicole

God, I’m gonna work for a beauty company, or a fashion company, and I’m just gonna, like, play with makeup all day. And it’s completely not that at all. And I remember, you know, sometimes I would be interviewing people to work for me. And it’s, it would often be young women that just thought it would be so glamorous and fun to be in the beauty industry. And I would always tell them, Look, this is an intense industry, this is not just playing with makeup, this is a lot of really hard work. There’s a lot of analytics behind what we’re doing. And, you know, just so you know, like, that’s, you know, these are the expectations depending on, you know, whatever the role was, but I think that people just don’t really know, or sometimes I would talk to people and tell them what I did. And I think that a lot of times people did just think it was kind of stupid and fluffy. And I had this joke that I would say, and I you know, and it would always make my husband that well, he wasn’t my husband back then. But my now husband may it would make him laugh where I would say, I like bubbles, you know, because I felt like sometimes, I told people I worked in the beauty industry. Like what they would hear was like, I like bubbles.

Amanda

Oh my gosh, I believe it. I mean, honestly, working in the fashion industry, you get the same same sort of response. You know, I would tell people like, Oh, I’m a buyer. That must be so much fun. You must just like go shopping all the time. It’s like so glamorous. And I’m like, No, I live on Starbucks protein plates. And I work like 14 hours a day, and I never don’t have a stomachache. Oh, you know, like, that’s the reality, right? And it’s not like this fun party. I get why it makes sense for the industry to project that image. But it’s like, incredibly unglamorous when I would be traveling with other my fellow buyers, we would especially if we were like at like a market week or something. We would intentionally search for the most unglamorous disgusting photos of our experience to share and we’d be like hashtag buyers live like the Starbucks at the convention center with 1000 phones plugged in and a mountain of trash buyers live, you know, that kind of thing?

Nicole

Yeah, yeah. I remember one time I did a photo shoot for one of the brands I was working for, where it was to kind of like, show me at work. And so we piled a ton of beauty products on this desk. And it wasn’t even my office. It was It wasn’t even my desk. It was like somebody else’s office. It was it was it’s all setting it up like oh, what’s gonna look like the best thing and, and we spread out all of these samples. And you know, and they took pictures of me sniffing things and looking at things and touching things. And it was just, it’s so out of touch from reality and what, what really happens, it’s all facade.

Amanda

It’s all a facade. It’s yeah, it’s like not Well, now that we’ve ever depressed everybody. Sorry. I know. I mean, it’s, I think that people need to hear this, like, I sometimes clotheshorse turns into group therapy for people who have survived these industries. So you obviously don’t work in beauty anymore. How did you transition out of it? Because I’ll tell you, I do get a lot of messages from people who are still In it, like not the beauty industry, per se, but in fashion, and they feel so hopeless that they could ever go do something meaningful after this?

Nicole

Sure. Well, you know, my, I just I had a really random opportunity to go and work for this bio plastics company, which is random, which is it’s random, let’s face it, but I was intrigued because I was like, Ooh, an alternative to, you know, petroleum based plastics, something that, you know, I’ve learned, I know a lot about bio plastics now. And I will say Just briefly, they’re not a panacea. But there are a lot of great uses for them. But they do complicate recycling. It’s very complicated, very

Amanda

complicated. I was sad to learn that, but that is, in fact, a great way to describe it.

Nicole

But I will say that part of what, there were a couple of things that interested me in the opportunity one was, oh, this is so cool, and different. And it sounds more eco friendly. And I was interested in that. But also, I thought, can I take my skill set that I’ve been cultivating all of these years and apply it to a completely different industry? And so I think for me, it was a bit of a way to challenge myself. Also, I felt like, yeah, you know, is, is that all there is? Are you are you a PJ Harvey listener? Do

Amanda

you know? Oh, yeah, of course.

Nicole

You know, that. Like, is that all there? Is? Is that all there is? You know, like, in my mind like, this, it is, yeah,

Nicole

jobs forever.

Amanda

And so that was our first musical performance, by the way.

Nicole

Sorry, I just, uh, yeah, cool. Sorry, I’m glad to hear. I just break out into song often. But, you know, I think that, you know, that was kind of like, playing in my head a little bit where it’s like, is this it? I’m Yeah, I could go a little bit higher or change companies, or maybe do my own thing. But is this it? Like, is this really what I want to do forever, right. And, and so I took the leap, I took the jump, it was a company that was excited about my kind of consumer focused experience. And I got to do some really cool initiatives. And I took the jump, but I remember when I announced that I was leaving the beauty industry, a friend of mine who worked for WWE at the time, who was a beauty. A beauty editor took me to lunch, and it was kind of It felt kind of like, like a mental health check. Like, like, are you okay, why? What are you doing? Why are you doing this? What’s going on? Um, but I just, I don’t know, I just felt like I wanted to just see if I could do something else. And then, after I started having kids, I did do some more beauty industry work, but more on the nonprofit side. And, you know, so it’s not like, I never went back or did anything, you know, beauty affiliated again. But once I started having children, I mean, I’ve worked my God. I mean, well, here’s the this is a funny story. In a way. It’s not funny. It’s, it’s like funny, sad.

Amanda

My,

Nicole

um, I was working for this beauty nonprofit. And the person that I was working for was actually an old colleague and friend of mine, who we used to work together. And she needed some part time help. And she knew that I was consulting because I was just working for a variety of different companies while I was home with a baby. But I mean, I always worked. I never did maternity leave, because I was always consulting. And so, you know, I can’t tell you even even before this other beauty industry story, like I’ve been in meetings, with the phone on mute, and my baby and like a rocking car seat thing that I’m moving with my foot. I’ve also breastfed during meetings with the baby below the camera. Oh my gosh. I mean, I’ve done all of

Amanda

that stuff. Serious positioning.

Nicole

Oh my god. I mean, I have done so many crazy things. But so I was working for this. I was consulting for this company and, and my bait. My second baby was early. And I had a deadline that was really important to them that they wanted to meet. And because my baby came early, I want I didn’t finish it in time. And so I had my baby on a Friday have a holiday weekend. And the following Tuesday, I worked an eight or nine hour day with my brand new infant on the Boppy pillow on my lap with my laptop sitting on the couch, I have a picture of it. My husband took it back. And it’s like, you know, and I can laugh at it now. But at the time, I was like, Well, you know, I didn’t I wasn’t even an employee, right? It was like, well, they, they have this deadline. They’re expecting this work to be finished at this time. And then I remember one time, that friend said, Wow, that’s so crazy that you worked like that. So soon after having the baby. And in my mind, I’m like, Well, you never pushed the deadline back. So I suppose

Amanda

for Hey, ah, and I don’t

Nicole

I mean, I don’t necessarily blame her per se, because I just think that it’s, it’s, our culture in general, doesn’t support mothers now doesn’t support people that have just had babies, and their world keeps spinning and their bottom line keeps spinning, and all of the work is still expected to be done. And so it’s one of those things where, you know, I just, I got it done. Yeah. And I think that, for me, I’m grateful that I was able to work from home. A lot of people don’t have that benefit. I mean, it’s devastating to me to hear how some mothers, you know, have their baby. And two weeks later, they’re back at work, I mean, or even three or four weeks. I mean, you know, you can’t even take a kitten away from its cat mom for eight weeks. So it’s, we’re, we’re not even giving humans I know,

Amanda

it’s a cat. It’s really appalling. And it’s true. Like, I had to go back to work, like a week and a half after my daughter was born. And I think about that now. And I’m like, How did I even do that? Like, I was still bleeding, you know? God, worst? Yeah. Really? I mean, we just don’t support mothers at all. I could go off on that for like, six hours. But the company in this country is very cruel about that kind of stuff.

Nicole

It really is. I mean, it could be better. If, yeah, it could be so much better

Amanda

can be Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you worked for the bio plastics company, which is quite a right turn a left turn. I don’t know, maybe it’s a left turn. In a weird way. It makes sense to me, though. So what happened next,

Nicole

so that so then I started having kids, I started consulting, and I was just kind of working from home. And I wasn’t really sure what I was going to do, I wasn’t really thinking yet about it was kind of like consulting was just working with my schedule having. So I had my first son. And then two years, nine months later, I had my second son. And, and so and I was consulting, and I was consulting up until, for three, I had actually three clients, up until the moment I gave birth. And so but I had told two of the three clients that as soon as my second son was born, that I wasn’t going to be able to continue on with the work after that point, because I just knew having done at once, how intense it was going to be, except now I was going to have to. And so I decided I picked the one that made the most sense for me. And I was like, Okay, I’m going to, you know, I’m going to do this one of these three companies, and, and cut back my hours. Well, I have an infant. And so I did that for quite a while. And so I wasn’t making anywhere near the amount of money that I had used to make. I mean, it was a massive, massive pay cut, which we had to adjust to as a family. But we wanted to as much as we could make sure that, you know, I could I really wanted to parent as much as I could. So, you know, we’ve made financial sacrifices to do that. But I, I don’t regret it. I’m glad that I did it. But then, you know, and this is kind of where the swapping thing comes in. Around the time that I had started working for the bio plastics company. I learned about the just how horrible the fashion industry was, at first I learned about all of the environmental stuff and how polluting it was. And it was a Whoa, yeah, I don’t want to be a part of that kind of moments.

Amanda

Yeah, when you learn, it’s never the same.

Nicole

Yeah, you can’t unlearn that information. At least I can’t I suppose there are people that learn it, and then tune it out and pretend it isn’t there. But I’m not that person. And so, but I have, you know, having been a performer and having been, you know, working in beauty so closely with fashion. It was it was one of those things where and also I just love clothes and I always have ever since I was little it’s a I realized, oh my god, I’m a part of this. I have contributed to this problem. And I don’t want to do that anymore. That doesn’t make me feel good. And so you know, I was a I was a thrifty or like thrill of the hunt, find the cool vintage piece that nobody has kind of a person. But I also shopped at all different tiers of regular stores from, you know, low end to high end and everything in between. and, and I just really didn’t feel very good about that I once had a friend tell me that I gave away more clothes than she owned. And then to think that so much clothing that I probably dumped at thrift shops, you know, made it into a landfill anyway. So it’s like, oh, I just had this reckoning. But I had a quote, a closet full of clothes that I wasn’t really wearing any more, I didn’t have time to sell them, I was too busy. And I never liked those places where you go, and they give you hardly any money for your stuff. And if you’re lucky, they take two things out of a giant bag and you feel like a total stylists, you know loser like Oh, my clothes, they think my clothes are gross, and ugly or whatever. It’s just like tomorrow, saying that whole experience. Yeah. And so and it just didn’t seem worth it. And so I thought I wonder if I could just swap my clothes. And so I literally Googled clothing swap Los Angeles. And lo and behold, there was a little tiny clothing swap club in my neighborhood of LA, which is also really extra weird, because LA is so big and so much sprawl. And I was living in this tiny little neighborhood on the west side. And but it really changed my life in terms of how I mixed up my wardrobe. And I loved it. And so I started doing that. I did it through both pregnancies, and I have been so many sizes, up and down, up and down. And, and I didn’t have to buy a whole new wardrobe every time I was in different size. And I loved that. And I loved that it was better for the environment. And I loved that I wasn’t, you know, enslaving people through my purchases, you know, and all of these things that I now really think about. And so I didn’t say to myself at that moment, oh, I’m going on a shopping ban. But it’s essentially what happened was, I basically just stopped buying brand new clothes. And that was in 2010. So I did that for a number of years. And then when my second son was three months old, and my other son was three, they the person that was running the little clothing swap club decided she didn’t want to do it anymore. And she was closing it down. And I was devastated.

Nicole

I was like, wait, what, oh, I don’t want that to go away. I love swabbing. It’s so much better than trying to sell your clothes. And I didn’t want to have to buy new stuff. And I liked I liked how it wasn’t just a way to get things secondhand. But it was also a way for me to responsibly pass on the clothes that I didn’t want anymore, whether I was bored of it, or it didn’t fit anymore, or some combination thereof. And so then I just started that the ideas just started percolating, you know, well, what if I started a clothing swap? What if it was online, and it could reach people over a wider area and not just my little community, etc, etc. And so that’s when I started building out the MVP. So that means minimum viable product. That’s like the term in the tech world, you know, and you’re have an idea for something. And so we did that. So and and then my husband is it works in tech. And so he was essential to this whole thing. I mean, he wrote the algorithm for we have this alternative currency that we created to make swapping really fair, we call it swap coin, but he wrote the algorithm for that. I mean, we worked on it together so that he knew kind of what was important to me and what I thought were the certain factors and a garments value. And you know, what levers I thought should go up or down based on certain things like condition or season and that sort of thing. And then and so we launched the MVP, and we just tried it out and people liked it. So that’s when we kind of took the next step and invested more in like really properly building out the technology so that it wasn’t kind of just like a thing that worked but not great, right? You know, and we made it better. And so that’s kind of how it happened but it’s also insane I mean, it’s crazy that I started this with a toddler and an infant and that infant that was three months old when all of this craziness started is turning six soon Wow

Nicole

Yeah, it’s it’s a lot to think about and I have all the mom guilt of oh, well, I cuz I work on this a lot. You know, oh, my goodness. should I should I be working so much? You know, my kids often comment about how I work all the time. All I know, and it It’s like a little stab in the heart a little bit. At the same time, I do make a point of spending a lot of quality time with them. And so I feel like it is it is what it is. I think most people have to work that have kids, I don’t I don’t think that I mean, whatever the sure there are, stay at home moms or whatever, but that that just wasn’t going to be me, to be honest with you, I need to activate my brain, I need to have a project. Maybe I went a little far with this one. But, but all that being said, um, you know, I think that hopefully, it just, I don’t know, just shows them that they have two parents that work and a mom that’s like really passionate about what she’s doing. I guess most importantly,

Amanda

I think it’s great. I think you’re an example. You’re a role model. And like, I know, it’s hard to balance the two. But trust me, when your kids grow up, they’re gonna look back and be like, Wow, my mom was so cool.

Nicole

So it’d be nice. Okay well.

Amanda

So well, let’s talk about clothing swapping. You know, you mentioned that swap society has this currency. That yeah, more fair, which I love that because I have always had a lot of anxiety, which I’m sure other people have too, about going to clothing swaps, bringing all kinds of bad clothes and leaving with like a pair of P stained sweatpants. This isn’t happened. It’s just I like to worry about things. So I’ve worried

Nicole

Yeah, well, I think that, you know, when we acquire an item of clothing, we attach a lot to that item, especially if we spent a lot of money on it. And so we want to kind of feel like we’re getting value back or like, it’s fair, I think it’s part of why people feel so burned when they do those resale shops, whether in person or online. And you know, the standard is that they pay out, you know, two to 4%. That’s just the formula, and then they mark it up 10x. And that’s the resale price. And that’s just how it works. And it’s not a judgement, necessarily, because, you know, it does cost money, all of this stuff is a service and it costs money to do this, you know, to have these kinds of businesses. That being said, I think as a consumer, or you know, as a person buying clothes, and then you go and you think, Oh, I spent however much whatever you think is a lot, whether it’s 100, or 300, or 1000, whatever, whatever you spent on it, and whatever you kind of feel like wow, that was I spent a lot of money on that thing. You you’re going to feel like you it’s just not fair. If you get 2% for what you paid on it, that just doesn’t feel fair. And if you go to a clothing swap event, or a swap party at a friend’s house, I understand why people are going to be hesitant to bring their nicer pieces, because they’re not sure if other people are going to bring their nicer pieces, right? And will there be nicer pieces that are their style and their size, they’re all of these mysterious things that have to come together to make that happen and make kind of everybody feel like it was really equal and fair. And so that’s really where swap coin comes in. And so basically, it’s not just the brand and original retail value, its condition and we take into account many different levels of condition. And, and season as well. And that’s really because, you know, I don’t think that it makes sense for someone to get quite as much. If it’s like the middle of summer and they send us a big chunky sweater. Well, you know, nobody’s really wants that. Right. Right. So, but I didn’t want to restrict it, you know, some some of those online platforms. They require that you send things that are in season, but I didn’t want people to feel like they had to think that much about it. I didn’t want to say oh, we’ll only take in season stuff. And so the solution was just that, well, you can still send it but you’ll get more if you send us stuff that’s current And season or all season tons of stuff is really any season like a pair of jeans, right? You could wear that year round. And so that’s really what what we did. And so people are comfortable sending us their higher value items, because they know that it’s it’s going to be fair how, however they wind up spending that swap coin, it’s going to be fair. And so what we’ve done is we’ve taken away markups. And, and I felt really strongly about this as well. I mean, obviously, you know, there’s so much work that goes into, you know, look at checking the garment for imperfection, steaming it, photographing it, listing it on the website, putting it in the warehouse, like picking and packing all the orders, we do all of that work. And so it, it’s one of those things where I wanted the swap coin to really be the value of the garment. And so that’s really the currency amongst the members and the people who are swapping, and then we charge service fees on top of that. So we have a monthly fee, and that includes free shipping both ways. And then also everything you order is 599 plus swap coin. So basically, it doesn’t matter if you’re getting something designer or something fast fashion or something that doesn’t have any tags, it’s all the same service fee for us, because it’s the same amount of work for us, regardless of the brand. Whereas if you’re shopping, resale, or consignment, you’re going to pay more, exponentially more, right, if it’s a higher value item, because the markup for the company is going to get higher and higher based on the perceived value of that garment. And so we kind of took all of that away. And that’s basically the gist of it. You know, we just wanted to make it really, I wanted to make it really easy for people. So when people sign up, we send them a welcome kit. And it has it’s basically a bag with a prepaid mailing label and instructions for what we accept and what we don’t. And then you fill that up, and you leave it out for your letter carrier or drop it at your post office. And then when we get the bag, we process everything, and then it’s an out, it’s algorithmically determined, right? So it’s not just people over here sitting around saying, I’m gonna give this 10

Amanda

What I was wondering about that, because I was thinking once again, like, if you go to beacons, or you go to Buffalo Exchange, or something like that anxiety, of standing there and waiting to see how much money they’re gonna give you and so arbitrary

Nicole

Oh, yeah, yeah. So I mean, if you were to, for example, look around on our site, and you picked a specific brand, like J Crew, for example, and you looked at all of the different J Crew dresses, they’ll all have a certain swap coin range. I mean, obviously, they’re all these different variables. So they won’t all be the same exact one. But it’s very consistent it is. So basically, we built this really cool, easy to use back end system. So the people who work for us just have to check off a bunch of boxes for the most part, and then the algorithm does the rest. And so we don’t even know what it’s going to be until we kind of enter in all of that information. And, you know, in this algorithm tells us and so it’s super, super fair, and people take it really seriously, which I think is really fun and cool. You know, what people really care about their balance? And did they get the right amount. And so sometimes when people are new, and they’re first doing it, you know, they’ll ask a lot of questions about it. But then once people get in the groove, you know, they just implicitly trust it, because it’s, it’s very consistent. And, and so that’s really cool. I mean, I like the people do you feel I think most of us have kind of that high low wardrobe, right? We might invest in a few statement pieces are things that are kind of fancy shmancy once in a while, and then we have a bunch of kind of mid range or even low range stuff. One of the things that was really important to me as well was that we accept all brands, even things without the tags because I think that a lot of resale platforms focus on designer and luxury brands and I feel like well, but what about all the other stuff, those clothes should also be worn. All of this wearable clothing that’s out there in the world we should wear it for as long as possible regardless of what the brand is. And then we even take things that don’t have the tags we call them unknown. And what that means is you’re just not going to get as much swap coin for that. So like if you send us a designer dress but you cut the tags out. You’ll get about the same amount of swap coin for it as a fast fashion item for example because we don’t we don’t know what it is so but one thing that I really love seeing and this might be I find it really cool and maybe you’ll agree but are like our number two top sell Buying brand quote unquote, brand or unknown items. And yeah, I love it because I feel like great people don’t care about the label, they don’t care who made it, because it’s second hand. And they just like the style and what it looks like. And it doesn’t matter that it doesn’t have a label in it. And that was really exciting to me, because I think that we have become too obsessed about the label and the branding of, of these brands. And, and so I just love to see that I think it’s really cool. We also accept all sizes, and we haven’t quite grown our larger sizes as much as I would like, it just hasn’t happened organically. And so I’m I don’t know, I’ve tried some ideas to kind of make it happen that haven’t really taken off. But, but if you if somebody’s listening, and you’re plus sized, we definitely accept it. But we just don’t have a ton. We don’t have as much yet. But then it’s like this chicken and the egg I hate if people were to come on the site and say, Oh, they don’t have a lot of plus size, I’m not gonna do it. And then I think it might be this kind of self perpetuating cycle, but everything and kids we do kids, baby, babies and kids clothing as

Amanda

well. Awesome. Um, this is amazing. I’m so excited that this exists in the world, you know. And I’m glad that you include the fast fashion and the things without labels because it is true. I mean, I guess, thread up accepts a lot of that stuff for resale. But I read recently, that 40% of what they receive just gets, like shredded or trashed or shipped overseas. So I know, I know. It’s, it’s not as great of a story as it seems like on the surface. So I’m excited to see people swapping this stuff.

Nicole

Yeah, but I will say I mean, there are things that we get sent that we cannot accept. And I think that in general, sometimes people aren’t great about checking the condition of their clothes before they send it either for resale or swapping or even to the thrift shop. I think that it’s kind of this, there’s this mentality in the culture of, I’m just going to draw on them.

Amanda

Yes. I mean, like, when we talk about someone, like throw it up, I ultimately, I think selling your clothes on throw it up is less about recouping any of the expenses of owning those clothes. And rather, they’re doing a service where you can literally dump all the stuff in the box, and they’re gonna deal with it for you, which isn’t to me. I’m not saying that’s okay. You know, but unfortunately, I do think that’s how a lot of people treat that service.

Nicole

Yeah, so I guess what I’m saying is probably a big part of that is just the condition of what they’re getting on average, and they’re at this massive scale, we’re nowhere near the size of a threat up, I’ll just put that out there that were much, much smaller scale. But, but even at our scale, we, we don’t accept a lot of things and it kind of hurts. It’s painful. We all care, you know, everybody that that works at swap society, we all really care. It’s kind of like, we’re, we’re saving these clothes from the landfill. And we take it really seriously. It’s almost like saving stray pets which I also rescue animals, but, but you know, all of these little garments, and I’m trying to be better because sometimes what happens is I’ll see something in the reject pile. I don’t be like, I can wear that a few times, get a few more. Where’s that before

Amanda

I understand this to be like, I wouldn’t be the same way. I’d have a problem. If I was working there. I would be like, wearing all the stained clothes. Like

Nicole

I have a thing for all the holy sweaters. So people. Like if we get a holy cashmere sweater, put it aside, I’m going to wear it with the holes in it. I have a I have a dream of doing some visible mending that just I never have time for but I

Amanda

do this to like I find it like I’m getting better about it. But I have like really unrealistic expectations for the actual time I have. But I’m like, Oh, I’m gonna dye it and then I’m gonna patch it and then I’m gonna have it again. It’s gonna be like 40 hours work but it’s gonna be worth it and then just like so.

Nicole

Yeah, and then every once in a while I like I did a closet purge recently where I said, I can’t, I can’t personally take this much of it on. Like, I also want to just love everything that I have in my closet. And you know, so it’s it’s a process because but we don’t throw things in the trash. We pass things on we work with certain designers that like to upcycle so you know, if it’s a silk blouse with armpit stains, you know, they’ll cut around the stain and repurpose some fabric. We also donate to different charities, you know, et cetera. So there are things that we do with the clothes Obviously, when we get larger will that’s the goal, the hope, right. But, you know, in the future, I can see how we would need a different type of solution at a bigger scale. Because right now it’s kind of like, oh, look, oh yeah, we have, we have a few bags full, it’s time, it’s time to pass those on to someone. But eventually, I could see how that can be really a lot of effort to deal with. And it does cost money. I mean, I think that, you know, if you drop things off to a thrift shop, for example, and your idea is, I’m doing a good thing, because somebody less fortunate might buy by this garment, or what have you, which is the little bit of a flawed thought process. But we could get more into that as well. But I would say that, you know, I often see some of these thrift shops saying, Please, don’t give us your ripped, stained takhli wholly destroyed things because we have to pay to dispose of it. Because what people don’t realize is that when you have that type of a business, whether it’s a nonprofit, or or a for profit, thrift shop, it costs those entities money to get rid of the stuff that they can’t use. And the same thing for a business like a thread up. You know, they have to, you know, it’s like, there is an industry, obviously, where you can bail up stuff, and you can ship it overseas, and there’s a certain rate for that, but then that’s just dirtying, you know, other countries, mostly in the global south that really don’t need any more of our discarded clothing. And then, you know, we’re destroying a lot of these communities with our trash clothes, that ultimately is going to wind up in a landfill or incinerated anyway. And it’s like, we I think that we should take more responsibility for our, our stuff, our personal things. And that’s part of why I love the Buy Nothing group because I can give something away, and I’m giving it to a person, I’m not pushing it off to some other entity and hoping that they’re able to do something with it. So I actually don’t really donate things to thrift shops as much as I used to, because I really make an effort. It’s kind of like, okay, well I I took on this item either bought it or it was given to me or whatever, or I found it on the street, because I’m a big dumpster diver. And and now I’m done with it. And now I’m going to try to give it to another person instead of this like other place because there’s no way right. So like really taking that concept of there’s no way kind of on a personal level.

Amanda

I love that. Yeah, I I’m excited about this prospect of you growing and growing, because I think it’s really easy for the fashion industry as a whole to see how you can be profitable and run a successful business selling things, right. It’s like, oh, charge the right price, mark it up the right amount, sell it off with units, the end. But I’m excited by ideas and models that are very different than what actually involve making anything new, being profitable. Because there’s nothing wrong with making a profit, right? Like, this is how you pay your bills. This is how you grow your business. I think a lot of people would say like, how can you make money off of swapping clothes, like, That’s the craziest idea I’ve ever had, but you’ve got a play on there, you know.

Nicole

We’ve built it, we’ve built it. And the more people that do it, the better because, you know, really the way that we have priced it is with affordability in mind. And I really want to be able to attract the fast fashion shopper, I it was really important to me that it wouldn’t be a service, like rental, for example, where most people are priced out, you know, how many people can afford to pay $100 a month to borrow four things at a time. Yeah, it’s very expensive. It’s very expensive. And then you don’t even get to keep it unless you buy it. It’s like this whole thing. And and I just and I know that sustainable fashion costs more if things are ethically produced, and you’re using responsibly harvested fibers that are organic, or whatever, all of that stuff, costs more money. And so I totally understand why a lot of people shop fast fashion, because it’s what they can afford. At the same time. It’s like it’s tough because, you know, we’re operating in the United States. And we’re, you know, in some ways competing pricing wise with what some of these fast fashion companies sell, sell their stuff for brand new and I know that that’s really challenging at the same time. It’s like it takes so much work for each garment to be processed on our end. So really, we our business model really needs to be at a bigger scale for it to make financial sense. At the same time, I’m so passionate about it being super affordable and accessible for people that I’m just, you know, pushing through just trying trying to kind of get to that next level, because I see so much opportunity for for this model to grow. I think that sometimes it’s just so different that I think sometimes it’s just people don’t maybe don’t get it right away, or think, well, like, why would I pay this like monthly fee? And it’s like, well, we have to have a monthly fee, or we can’t cover your shipping.

Amanda

I mean, that makes sense. Yeah.

Nicole

You know, and that sort of thing. But we made it really inexpensive. You know, one of the things that we thought about too was weak, I didn’t want people to feel limited in terms of how much they could order at any given time, which is why there’s part membership part per item service charge, essentially, because some people buy a lot of stuff. And I, you know, I mean, like 2030 Plus items at a time. And so I know that that might sound insane to some people, but some people are buying for themselves because their weight just changed, or they just got a new job, or they’re shopping for them and their kids, or what have you, but I didn’t want it to be, oh, we’ll charge more per month, and then you can swap X amount of items. It was like, No, I want it, I want it to be free. And then also people that swap a lot, you know, they’re spending more to swap a lot. And that doesn’t affect the people that just want to swap a little bit who don’t have to kind of spend quite as much if that makes Right.

Amanda

Right? No, it totally makes sense to me. I think that’s really smart. So like, what’s your dream? What do you want? Like, if you could look back in a few years and be like, Wow, I really did what I wanted to do with swap society, what would that be?

Nicole

Well, you know, one of the things that we focus on a lot that I personally focus on a lot. And actually, I just started my own podcast. With this in mind, which is, I would love for, I really try to advocate for change, and like cultural change and behavioral change, and how we interact with our clothes and the world. And so I not in a judgmental way. But just to know, like, here’s this information, I think it’s really important. And, you know, here are the reasons that you should buy less new stuff, you know, our hashtag is swap before you shop, I don’t say don’t shop, don’t swap, don’t shop or whatever, it’s like, people are still going to sometimes buy stuff. And I think that that’s fine. But if we slow down our consumption, and we become more mindful, I would just really love to see more and more people doing that. And sometimes people will email us and say, Hey, I just want to buy stuff, can’t I just buy stuff? And it’s like, well, no, and it’s so weird. And I think most business people would probably say that is a bad idea. Just let people buy what they want. But it’s kind of I guess I would just love to really grow this community. You know, we’re this growing community of women across the United States, that are kind of collectively slowing down our consumption, and sharing our clothes with each other. We don’t necessarily know who sent what, or who we’re swapping with. But, but we are this community of people. And I would just love to see more and more of that happening. And I think that, you know, this type of service has the opportunity to make it really easy for people. It’s like, Oh, you like to shop online? Great, this is online, it’s easy to use, you could do it late at night, you know, if you can’t sleep or whatever, whatever works for you, you know, no judgement, and just make it really easy to kind of send your clothes back and forth, and have it be a way to do that. I would I would love to just see more and more people kind of coming on board. I think sometimes, you know, we’re all talking to each other people that are focused on sustainable fashion and changing the fashion industry. But they’re still the vast majority of people out there that aren’t aware even of what’s going on. So it’s always like, how do we reach those people I would love to become more mainstream, so that it becomes more normal for people to not buy new stuff and less normal to buy more new stuff. And but also with some kind of optimism in it. I have to say that who the Eco anxiety is really intense. Like I every day is like a new day and I’m I’m trying to be really positive but one of the things that I’m really focusing on with the podcast So it’s like this idea of like, well, what’s keeping you optimistic? Because I need, it turns out, so maybe it will help me because the world feels like it’s just, it’s so intense, it’s so much. And sometimes it feels really fluffy, like, Oh, we’re swapping clothes. And I think that sometimes people in even in the, you know, environmental advocacy world don’t take what we’re doing as seriously kind of back to what we were talking about earlier, right about how it’s like, oh, it’s like very female, and it doesn’t matter. But it does matter. Because we’re, yeah, I mean, the amount of carbon going into the atmosphere alone, the water pollution, the waste, I mean, at all phases of the production of a garment, it’s, you know, it’s so impactful. And it’s and these fashion companies are just growing at these insane rates. And so, you know, how, how do we combat that. So I would love to see, you know, people swapping more, and shopping secondhand more, and kind of doing it together and knowing that, oh, hey, we’re doing this together. And it’s good. It’s kind of like that, I know, I keep talking about my buy nothing group. But I’ve met so many cool people through that group. And people are willing to kind of pass their things to one another and support one another and help one another. And I think we just need more ways to connect, I think we’ve become more isolated, and society in a lot of ways. And so I think the more things we can do together like this, the better the world will be, we do have the opportunity to make a positive impact, even if it’s, you know, one piece of trash picked up off the beach at a time or one swapped garment at a time, or whatever it is. Absolutely.

Amanda

I agree. I, I like that optimism, I think that like working in this area, is really, it’s really focused on community. And it’s like, it’s what brings you joy and optimism in the face of so many difficult circumstances. For me, it’s a source of energy and motivation. It’s really, really important I, I want, there’s so many people working sort of as islands on this baby with their own little like community around them. And what we really need to do is merge all these communities together and build an even larger chain of support. Because I do think that with all these people who care so much who are meeting other like minded people who care so much to that we actually have the power to change minds and educate people, because as you said, most most people don’t know any of the stuff that unfortunately, we know. I mean, fortunately, we know it, but maybe it’s more unfortunate that they don’t know, I don’t know, but when they find out, they might think otherwise, you know? Well, you know, we’ve been talking for almost two hours now. So I told you, I was like we could probably talk for 100 hours. So I thought maybe there’s like one last thing I wanted to ask you is like, if you were gonna like what would be your parting thought your piece of advice, your catchphrase that’s going to motivate everyone, what would you say to everyone is your last as your outro on this episode?

Nicole

I would say that, and I think I would say that if you are if it makes you feel uncomfortable, too, to not buy something like this idea of like stopping shopping, for example. You know, I don’t know really kind of ask yourself why, you know, take some take a moment to to really think about it, because I will say that I hardly ever buy anything, anything brand new. And it’s so it’s getting easier and easier. And whether it’s furniture, or clothes, or whatever it might be, I would say just try it out, even if it feels uncomfortable or weird. Because the reality is that we need to stop consuming so much. If we stop consuming so much. The companies aren’t going to produce as much because they’re not going to it’s not going to make financial sense. So, you know, it’s not to put the blame on the consumers. And I don’t even like that word, but but whatever it is what it is, but it’s like, you know, how can we change the world in our own ways, and I think we can do that by supporting each other. And also just becoming more mindful about all of the things that we do. I think that we live in such a consumeristic society and the messages are everywhere and it’s hard to turn tune it out. Some times, but our value is not in the stuff that we buy. our value is totally different. And so none of that stuff really matters. I mean, yeah, you need certain things, for living, etc. But like, try to focus more on what you need. And if it’s something that you just want, like, maybe simmer on it a little bit and really think about, Do I really need that thing is, what is that really going to do for me? Is that really going to improve my life? And, you know, just try to have kind of a change in thinking and habits.

Amanda

I love that it’s so true. You know, like, it’s, it is hard to, it’s uncomfortable, to make that change. But ultimately, I think it helps you realize yourself a lot more. And who you really are, it’s weird. I’ve I started that journey at the beginning of the pandemic. And of course, it was easier because I didn’t have a job and I was stuck at home playing The Sims, which I now I’m talking about, I like really want to just go sit on the couch and play The Sims. It’s been too long. But I it was uncomfortable. It was like what do I do when I’m like, you know, bored at work or, you know, laying on the couch watching TV and like not being very captivated. I would look at stuff to buy on the internet, right? It feels good to get away from that. And I find that I have time for other things that are a lot more meaningful. Well, yeah, abs thank you so much, Nicole, this was such a delight.

Nicole

Oh, it was so much fun. Thank you so much for having me. And, you know, hopefully someday we can hang out in person.

Amanda

I know. It’s so fun. Because I feel like

Nicole

I keep finding my people like we’re all finding each other.

Amanda

It’s true. I true. I feel like for me, you know the pandemic is a time that has kept me apart from so many people who matter to me, but I also made all these incredible new friends thanks to clotheshorse, who I talked to regularly that I would have never met before.

Okay, now that I’ve given you all a pep talk, let’s jump into my conversation with Nicole, who I know you’re going to love!!!

Thanks again to Nicole for spending so much time with me! You can find out more about Swap Society at swapsociety.co and on instagram at @swapsociety. And if you’re interested in trying Swap Society (do it!!), you can get 15% off membership for new members by using promo code CLOTHESHORSE. No this isn’t a commercial or a paid partnership. We just thought it might entice you to try out the magic of online clothing swapping! If you try it, report back! I want to hear all about how it goes for you! Technology can lead to some pretty terrible things (overconsumption of iPhones, Elon Musk, Twitter battles, Amazon) but it can also be used for the power of good, like shifting into a circular economy via swapping, buy nothing groups and peer-to-peer selling. I believe that the future can be better. And I know that it will be with all of us involved.

Thanks for listening to another episode of Clotheshorse!

I’ll be taking next week off because…drumroll please…Dylan and their partner Ryan are visiting me here in Austin. But I’ll be back after that with more stories of circularity!